Jacksonville School of Orthodontics

[dent1090]

Just found out I got into Jacksonville.
They want me to pull out of the match.
Anyone have an opinion about the program??
Anyone heard if the education is good?
i have 2 interviews coming up..
should I take a gauranteed yes or risk a no??
Help!

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[lolotiger]

How badly do you want to be an orthodontist? I think you should take the position. there is no guarantee for match so if you have a spot take the acceptance. This is the only time where you know you for sure have an acceptance why would you risk it?

 

[charlestweed]

I would accept the Jacksonville's offer if I were you. Good program doesn't necessarily make you a good orthodontist. Reading good textbooks and journals won't help much either. When you learn how to treat 50-60 ortho cases at an ortho residency program, you only learn the basics of ortho. You will learn a lot more when you practice in the real world.

You learn more when you treat more cases. I improve my clinical skills by accepting difficult cases (ie surgical, canine impaction) that were rejected by other orthodontists. I've learned a lot when I work at busy chain offices. At the chain offices, I've learned how to straighten teeth with limited resources. I've learned a lot when I took over difficult transfer cases that were misdiagnosed by other orthodontists.

 

[BlueToothHunter]

How much do they charge for tuition nowadays? I heard $75,000/year?

 

[charlestweed]

According to their website, the tuition is $79k per year. Just don’t set up an expensive state-of-art ortho office when you get out. And don’t be picky….just accept any job offer.

 

[TJ witherspoon]

According to their website, the tuition is $79k per year. Just don’t set up an expensive state-of-art ortho office when you get out. And don’t be picky….just accept any job offer.[/QUOTE

Is it even worth it when it costs this much? that's almost the cost of going to four more years of dental school. I'm not applying to ortho, but I would think at some point you've got to wonder how high will these tuition prices go before it actually becomes a really dicey financial decision to keep accruing so much debt. costs of dental education are getting outrageous. is this a smart financial decision?

 

[ortho lurker]

If the Jacksonville program is only 24 months in length, then take it!!! There are 3 year private ortho programs that cost the same annually, so why pay for that extra year? Plus, you have to look at the opportunity cost of working 1 year earlier out in private practice versus counting down the days at a residency program collecting data for your master's thesis, trimming study models, fabricating lab appliances, etc. for an additional year!

 

[og2]

Just found out I got into Jacksonville.
They want me to pull out of the match.
Anyone have an opinion about the program??
Anyone heard if the education is good?
i have 2 interviews coming up..
should I take a gauranteed yes or risk a no??
Help!

how many interviews do you have total? are you saying that you only have 2 other interviews in addition to your jacksonville offer? if you only have 2 other interviews then i would very seriously consider just accepting jacksonville's offer. although you only technically need 1 interview to match, your chances don't look too good with that few of interviews. but then again even if an applicant has 15 interviews lined up there's no guarantee about matching. this is why if you decide from the beginning to apply to nonmatch programs, i personally think you have to go into it thinking you'll accept if they offer a residency spot. otherwise i don't see much reason to apply nonmatch (i didn't apply to nonmatch schools because of this). obviously that's just my personal opinion and i'm sure many will disagree, but that's my story and i'm sticking to it 🙂 now, back to your situation, since you ask about opinions regarding Jacksonville as a program i've heard it's pretty busy with large patient flow, but i've also heard (all hearsay) that there is not much clinical supervision or instruction. also, i'd be lying if i said they have a great reputation. i think that last point is pretty general knowledge, but just being honest since you asked. i suppose you have to decide for yourself whether this bothers you or not. is it worth it to decline the acceptance based on reputation and your interviews coming up? probably not... unfortunately you have no way of knowing what could've been either decision you make, yanno? this is precisely why when i applied i limited my applications to schools that participated in the match so i have a lot more control over the process. you probably didn't want to hear some of the stuff i said, but i hope my rant helped a little. sorry if it just made you more confused, haha. good luck with your decision...i know it's a tough one.

 

[og2]

According to their website, the tuition is $79k per year. Just don’t set up an expensive state-of-art ortho office when you get out. And don’t be picky….just accept any job offer.[/QUOTE

Is it even worth it when it costs this much? that's almost the cost of going to four more years of dental school. I'm not applying to ortho, but I would think at some point you've got to wonder how high will these tuition prices go before it actually becomes a really dicey financial decision to keep accruing so much debt. costs of dental education are getting outrageous. is this a smart financial decision?

as crazy as it sounds, it's worth it to some people that absolutely, positively will do whatever it takes to do ortho. why do these people feel such a strong need to ONLY do ortho? that i'm not so certain of. i know there are different viewpoints on the subject, but i personally am in the camp that you should go to dental school initially because you want to be a dentist not bc you want to be some sort of specialist. so, in my mind the ortho-or-die mentality is a little backwards to me, but i can say that ortho, even today with all the issues that are arising in terms of way too many grads vs demand etc etc, is not such a bad place to be. the sad part is that ortho programs, especially all the stupid new ones popping up all over the place, have no shame about totally preying on this fact and charge completely unreasonable tuition just bc they know they can.

 

[charlestweed]

Is it even worth it when it costs this much? that's almost the cost of going to four more years of dental school. I'm not applying to ortho, but I would think at some point you've got to wonder how high will these tuition prices go before it actually becomes a really dicey financial decision to keep accruing so much debt. costs of dental education are getting outrageous. is this a smart financial decision?

Yes, it is totally worth it if you hate doing low production back breaking procedures (fillings and cleanings) all day long, dealing with patients who are afraid to see you (dental phobia), dealing with after hour emergencies etc. Spending an extra $200-250k to obtain a job that you can enjoy for the rest of your life is totally worth it.

Yes, it is a smart financial decision. To produce similar amount of money, an orthodontist doesn’t have to work as hard as the GP. This is because the ortho assistants do all the work.

 

[hant]

I would accept the Jacksonville’s offer if I were you. Good program doesn’t necessarily make you a good orthodontist. Reading good textbooks and journals won’t help much either. When you learn how to treat 50-60 ortho cases at an ortho residency program, you only learn the basics of ortho. You will learn a lot more when you practice in the real world.

You learn more when you treat more cases. I improve my clinical skills by accepting difficult cases (ie surgical, canine impaction) that were rejected by other orthodontists. I’ve learned a lot when I work at busy chain offices. At the chain offices, I’ve learned how to straighten teeth with limited resources. I’ve learned a lot when I took over difficult transfer cases that were misdiagnosed by other orthodontists.

so true!

 

[runfast520]

Yes, it is totally worth it if you hate doing low production back breaking procedures (fillings and cleanings) all day long, dealing with patients who are afraid to see you (dental phobia), dealing with after hour emergencies etc. Spending an extra $200-250k to obtain a job that you can enjoy for the rest of your life is totally worth it.

Yes, it is a smart financial decision. To produce similar amount of money, an orthodontist doesn’t have to work as hard as the GP. This is because the ortho assistants do all the work.

but you do have to consider your financial record, and what you will be able to do after residency. I just started a practice from residency and the banks do look at how much student loan debt you have. Might have to work at a mill for 3-5 years before you could ever get a loan. And don't forgot about how many orthos are graduating now, partly because of the former oec schools

 

[charlestweed]

but you do have to consider your financial record, and what you will be able to do after residency. I just started a practice from residency and the banks do look at how much student loan debt you have. Might have to wor at a mill for 3-5 years before youk could ever get a loan.

There are ways to offset such high tuition. You don't have to spend $300-400k to set up an office…you can have a beautiful one for only $120k-150k. You don't have to buy a $600k house…buy a cheaper one with fewer bedrooms for $400k. You can always expand your business and buy a bigger house later. You don't have to work at a chain first and then open your office later. You can work at a dental chain and run your own private practice at the same time.

I believe there are banks that loan you the $$$ without looking at your income and your student loan debts. All the bank needs is your dental school diploma. Please correct me if I am wrong.

And don't forgot about how many orthos are graduating now, partly because of the former oec schools

Ortho is not the only specialty that has this problem. In my opinion, ortho is not as over-saturated as general dentistry. When a new dental school is open, 60-100 students are accepted each year. When a new ortho program is open, only 5-6 residents are accepted each year.

There are plenty of people who want to get braces but can't afford to get them. Ortho residency programs and dental chains have had no problem getting new patients because both of them are offering affordable ortho treatments. You will be successful if you charge similar fees at your office and provide better services....ie shorter wait time, repair broken brackets on the same day, better communication, private practice atmosphere etc.

 

[koochooloo13]

Just found out I got into Jacksonville.
They want me to pull out of the match.
Anyone have an opinion about the program??
Anyone heard if the education is good?
i have 2 interviews coming up..
should I take a gauranteed yes or risk a no??
Help!

How were you contacted of your acceptance...phone or email?

 

[GTFOOMICT]

There are ways to offset such high tuition. You don’t have to spend $300-400k to set up an office…you can have a beautiful one for only $120k-150k. You don’t have to buy a $600k house…buy a cheaper one with fewer bedrooms for $400k. You can always expand your business and buy a bigger house later. You don't have to work at a chain first and then open your office later. You can work at a dental chain and run your own private practice at the same time.

I believe there are banks that loan you the $$$ without looking at your income and your student loan debts. All the bank needs is your dental school diploma. Please correct me if I am wrong.


Ortho is not the only specialty that has this problem. In my opinion, ortho is not as over-saturated as general dentistry. When a new dental school is open, 60-100 students are accepted each year. When a new ortho program is open, only 5-6 residents are accepted each year.

There are plenty of people who want to get braces but can’t afford to get them. Ortho residency programs and dental chains have had no problem getting new patients because both of them are offering affordable ortho treatments. You will be successful if you charge similar fees at your office and provide better services....ie shorter wait time, repair broken brackets on the same day, better communication, private practice atmosphere etc.

I'm in OMS but I think your posts are great. I really appreciate your realism.

 

[BlueToothHunter]

I just want to make a comment on getting bank loans... unlike in the heydays of housing boom, nowadays the banks WILL look at how much your school loan is, and how big is your monthly repayments (income:expense ratio) before they approve you of any loan. Gone are the days when they give you a loan just because you were an orthodontist (or a dentist) and had a pulse. Manage your finances wisely in school and the chances will increase. By the way, most of the "bad" orthodontic office deals that I've seen were due to the orthodontist not able to control their overhead and managing their loan repayments. Remember that you must consider loan repayment as part of your expenses!

 

[ortho lurker]

I just want to make a comment on getting bank loans... unlike in the heydays of housing boom, nowadays the banks WILL look at how much your school loan is, and how big is your monthly repayments (income:expense ratio) before they approve you of any loan. Gone are the days when they give you a loan just because you were an orthodontist (or a dentist) and had a pulse. Manage your finances wisely in school and the chances will increase. By the way, most of the "bad" orthodontic office deals that I've seen were due to the orthodontist not able to control their overhead and managing their loan repayments. Remember that you must consider loan repayment as part of your expenses!

A lot of the bad ortho transition offices in So Cal are due to poor location choices: ie. you don't need to be the 4th orthodontic practice in the SAME building, and you probably don't need an office larger than 2000+ s.f. in a saturated market. Most stand-alone ortho offices in L.A. are barely busy enough to be open 2 days a week.

 

[runfast520]

You don't have to work at a chain first and then open your office later. You can work at a dental chain and run your own private practice at the same time.

I agree, and that is what I am doing. To be completely honest, when I interviewed I did not mention I was going to open my office, and now that they know they are very upset. I found out a few years ago Monarch fired all their part time orthos and hired people willing to sign a contract that they would not work in any other office for 2 years. So I am waiting to see how long they keep me around.


I agree with alot of what you say, but I feel when I treat 80 patients/day at monarch it is a mill and I do not get to know my patients at all, feel I might as well be working on an assembly line making cars, only smiles in my case.
I left engineering to dentistry for the human aspect and getting to know my patients, I think you can do good ortho seeing the number of patients you do, but I personally can't get to know the patients like I would. I think it is fun to talk about the sports and such with them

 

[yojimbo53]

I have a colleague that runs a two chair practice with one assistant. Sees less than 20 patients a day. Sometimes less than 10. Not sure what his financials look like, but I assume he's living comfortably, considering he lives in a huge house on 10 acres, and takes 2-3 trips to Europe every year with his wife.

I agree with alot of what you say, but I feel when I treat 80 patients/day at monarch it is a mill and I do not get to know my patients at all, feel I might as well be working on an assembly line making cars, only smiles in my case.
I left engineering to dentistry for the human aspect and getting to know my patients, I think you can do good ortho seeing the number of patients you do, but I personally can't get to know the patients like I would. I think it is fun to talk about the sports and such with them

 

[BlueToothHunter]

Just remember he will never admit to being in debt upto his eyeballs! Those things are never his! They were bought with the money burrowed from the bank! One missed payment, and then he could be screwed... the old saying... the party's over when the money runs out folks! Unless you are the Federal Government and you can experiment with QE21

 

[charlestweed]

I'm in OMS but I think your posts are great. I really appreciate your realism.

Thank you.

 

[charlestweed]

...and you probably don't need an office larger than 2000+ s.f. in a saturated market. Most stand-alone ortho offices in L.A. are barely busy enough to be open 2 days a week.

Every time I see a new grad orthodontist posting an expensive office design for a 2000-3000sf space on the Orthotown forum, I feel bad for this young doctor. For such large office space, he/she must spend at least $300k in construction and $4-6k/month for rent. How is this young doc gonna live when he/she has so much debt?

I used to work at a Western Dental office that had 6 ortho chairs in a tiny 600-700 s.f. open bay area. This tiny office consistently produced $8-12k a day. This Western Dental’s financial success taught me that there is no need to have a nice big office space in order to produce a lot of $$$.

 

[charlestweed]

I agree, and that is what I am doing. To be completely honest, when I interviewed I did not mention I was going to open my office, and now that they know they are very upset. I found out a few years ago Monarch fired all their part time orthos and hired people willing to sign a contract that they would not work in any other office for 2 years. So I am waiting to see how long they keep me around.

Really? You and I work for the same company (BrightNow merged with Monarch 5-6 years ago). BrightNow know that most of the associate orthos (myself included) have private practices…and they don't usually care. They even let me hire their ortho RDAs on the days when these RDAs are not working.

I agree with alot of what you say, but I feel when I treat 80 patients/day at monarch it is a mill and I do not get to know my patients at all, feel I might as well be working on an assembly line making cars, only smiles in my case.
I left engineering to dentistry for the human aspect and getting to know my patients, I think you can do good ortho seeing the number of patients you do, but I personally can't get to know the patients like I would. I think it is fun to talk about the sports and such with them

It is normal to feel this way when you first start working at a busy chain office. As you gain more experience, things will get a lot easier for you and you will have more time talking to the patients. You become less nervous when teeth don't move the way you want them to move. I am not a very sociable person. Instead of talking to the patients, I usually stay in the staff lounge while the assistants work on the patients, clean up the chair, and bring in the next group of patients. Right now, I am in the staff lounge (at BrightNow) typing this post🙂.

 

[charlestweed]

I have a colleague that runs a two chair practice with one assistant. Sees less than 20 patients a day. Sometimes less than 10. Not sure what his financials look like, but I assume he's living comfortably, considering he lives in a huge house on 10 acres, and takes 2-3 trips to Europe every year with his wife.

I would go crazy if I had to spend my whole 8-hour work day just to treat 20 patients ….there would be too many empty slots on the appointment book. I’d rather work 5 days/month and see 60-80 patients a day than working 16 days/month and only seeing 20 patients a day.

For other specialties and general dentistry, when a doctor treats 4x as many patients in a day, he/she has to work 4x harder and the quality of care decreases significantly. For orthodontics, there is no difference between seeing 20 patients a day with 1 ortho RDA and seeing 80 patients a day with 4 ortho RDAs. That’s the beauty of orthodontics.

 

[ortho lurker]

I would go crazy if I had to spend my whole 8-hour work day just to treat 20 patients ….there would be too many empty slots on the appointment book. I’d rather work 5 days/month and see 60-80 patients a day than working 16 days/month and only seeing 20 patients a day.

For other specialties and general dentistry, when a doctor treats 4x as many patients in a day, he/she has to work 4x harder and the quality of care decreases significantly. For orthodontics, there is no difference between seeing 20 patients a day with 1 ortho RDA and seeing 80 patients a day with 4 ortho RDAs. That’s the beauty of orthodontics.

I have heard of a stand-alone ortho practice (not a recent start-up) at a beach town in L.A. that has 20 active patients on a 2 day a month schedule... 10 pts/day.

 

[charlestweed]

I have heard of a stand-alone ortho practice (not a recent start-up) at a beach town in L.A. that has 20 active patients on a 2 day a month schedule... 10 pts/day.

Senario1:
This may be one of the orthodontist’s many satellite offices. Lets assume that this orthodontist charges $5-6k a case. Each of his patients pay him $200 a month….$200 x 20 active patients = $4000 a month in gross production. If he owned the building and the staff traveled with him, his take-home amount would be about $3k….not bad for working 2 days a month.

Senario2:
This ortho has poor communication and business skills. Not too many dentists in the area refer patients to him. If this is the senario, it’s time to shut down (or sell) the practice.