jfitzpat said:I am considering med school and want to get a feel for how feasible it is financially. I am a 28 year old attorney, but I absolutely hate practicing law. I hate the greed, the arrogance, and the pointlessness. I am thinking about pursuing medicine instead (note that I also understand that there are greedy and arrogant physicians as well, just not as many). However, I have deep concerns about finances.
I currently have around $100,000 in preexisting law school debt and could add $200,000 getting my prereqs and MD. That makes me 35 years old with $300,000 in debt BEFORE my residency. With a four year residency, I will be 39 before any real money starts coming in. My wife makes around 45k as a Marketing Manager. We are expecting our first child within the next couple of weeks. We live in a reasonably priced Midwestern city with two local medical schools.
My question is whether this is feasible. I don't need to be rich. I don't want to pursue medicine for the money, but by the same token, I also want a secure financial environment for my family. Sorry about the long message. Any help would be most appreciated. Thanks.
Y_Marker said:In part depends on the type of debt. The subsidized portion of your student loan will be taken care of while you're in school. The unsub you're responsible for interest while you're in school. Hopefully you were able to lock in the low interest rate for your $100,000 debt under a consolidation plan.
The bigger part of the answer is - depends on how badly you want to do medicine and how badly you hate your current profession. The fact that you have your wife bringing in some money will certainly help as well while you goto school. Besides, there may be a possibility that you get a scholarship to goto school, or your state school isn't as expensive, etc.
Money is an issue but don't let it be the main issue holding you back. It can be done. If you don't do it now, will you forever keep wondering and asking yourself...I wish I had given it a shot atleast?
Non-TradTulsa said:Exlawgrrl is the best guide there is for JD to MD...
I think you'll want to go to your state-supported school if at all possible.
What I'm concerned about is that I believe there are limits on the total amount of federally-insured student debt that you can carry. I really don't know - I'm just now starting to learn to navigate the financial aid maze myself, but I believe that you cannot have more than about $180K in federal student debt. That's not a deal-breaker if you have good credit and can qualify for non-federal loans, but it will cost you more.
I apologize in advance if I'm wrong!!
jfitzpat said:I have also read that the limit for federal money is somewhere around $180K. I live in Nebraska and the state medical school isn't nearly as expensive as the private (Creighton), but it is still around $80K in tuition and fees.
I really would like to keep working while getting my prereqs, but I'm having trouble with two obstacles. First, we are expecting our first child in a few weeks and most of the science classes at the local university meet two nights a week for lecture and one night a week for lab. When that is paired in with the 50+ hours a week that I currently work, I think it would put too much of a strain on my family. Second, no school, public or private, in my area offers either Organic Chemistry at night. I would love to hear about how other people deal with this issue. Thanks for all your replies.
Non-TradTulsa said:Boy, I hear ya about those nighttime lab classes. Before I say anything else, I need to tell you: I'm single - I can't tell you how to handle the family issues - there are great non-trad people on SDN who can. I'm also an odd premed because I just turned 44 this fall and I'll start first year med school in August. I consider my poor adopted German Shepherd (pic at left) to be an abused child, because she's had to get used to spending 14 hours a day in the backyard for the last 2 years, and it's broken my heart.
That's true - but the $120-$130K that exlawgrrl quoted for FP is take-home. Most physicians are salaried employees these days, and office overhead plus malpractice are expenses paid by the employer. At least, that's true for all of the salaried physicians that I know in my own health system. Solo practices and small group practices are going the way of independent drug stores. You can make a little more money if you go solo, but the headaches of office management - and getting into all the managed-care contracts you need - are a formidable obstacle.ihopetobeado said:I think one thing that tends to be forgotten in the whole salary discussion is how costly malpractice insurance can be for a given specialty.
According to Damages, by Barry Werth, 90% of malpractice claims are settled, but of the remaining 10% that go to trial, physicians win 90% of the time. Of course, another big difference between having insurance and self coverage is that the insurance company will hire lawyers to defend suits against you (although their interest will be more to protect the company).ihopetobeado said:the average award amount for a malpractice suit is $1 million and that roughly 40% of those physicians who are sued for malpractice will lose.
jrdnbenjamin said:According to Damages, by Barry Werth, 90% of malpractice claims are settled, but of the remaining 10% that go to trial, physicians win 90% of the time. Of course, another big difference between having insurance and self coverage is that the insurance company will hire lawyers to defend suits against you (although their interest will be more to protect the company).
ihopetobeado said:I got my information from the following:
"By 2000, the median jury award had risen to $1 million, with the median pretrial settlement award at $500,000. In 2000, defendant doctors prevailed in 60 percent of all the cases that went to a jury.3 "
http://www.aafp.org/fpm/20021000/47unde.html#refs
The point being that the malpractice issue should be one of many factors considered when deciding to become a physician. Again from the same article: "According to one study of about 150 doctors who were sued for malpractice, 95 percent reported significant physical or emotional symptoms during the litigation process, 42 percent stopped seeing certain kinds of patients and 28 percent stopped doing certain kinds of procedures.5 "
PublicHealth said:Are any of the JD to MD folks in this thread malpractice lawyers?
Physician salaries are not keeping up with inflation:
http://www.memag.com/memag/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=123419
http://www.memag.com/memag/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=179086
Future of medicine will likely be mid-levels providing most, if not all, primary care and MDs/DOs providing specialty care. It's already happening. Most medical school students who will inevitably be saddled with $200K debt apply to medical school thinking that they'll be primary care docs. By third year, they all want to specialize because they realize the blood, sweat, and tears is not worth $120K/year.
Law2Doc said:As for your question about malpractice attorneys, I think it's not that likely you would be looked upon favorably by adcoms trying to transition from being a malpractice plaintiff's attorney, so that would be a significant hurdle to overcome in admissions.
PublicHealth said:Most docs who will interview you are academic MDs/DOs or PhDs. Under the academic umbrella, malpractice is not much of an issue. Salary is another story...
Law2Doc said:If you think it isn't an issue, you are simply wrong. Most interviewers are clinicians. While most of these doctors work in academic settings, they are still subject to lawsuit, and will still be annoyed by malpractice attorneys. When one files a suit, even at a teaching hospital affiliated with an academic institution, you still name the physicians involved. They may not pay their own insurance, but they still get sued. And those that have retired to pure academia will have had a career full of brushes with lawyers. I stand by my prior statement.
dr. v. boombatz said:2) I disagree that being a med. mal. atty would have a negative impact. I think that if you can think on your feet- & I hope you can as a litigator and provide a great explanation in your essay and interview, that some medical schools would be absolutely fascinated. By the way, you would be absolutely crazy to be a sucessful med. mal. atty and go to med. school to improve your credentials b/c you would be so rich as a malpractice atty., med school would not matter. I know a few MD/JDs and all of them went to med. school first!
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Law2Doc said:Not sure I agree with all of this. I've heard from admissions types who have indicated that adcoms are wary of med mal types. It's less about thinking on your feet and more about being regarded as being from the enemy camp.
As for being crazy to get an MD to do medmal, it certainly enhances your chances at larger law firms to have other health degrees. So while sure, it may not be helpful for existing medmal lawyers already doing well, it would certainly be helpful for folks in smaller firms looking to move up the food chain, or those in other litigation areas who want to change to a health oriented field like medmal. But I do agree, 99.99% of medmal lawyers do not have an MD, so it certainly isn't a prereq. But I can see how, for some, it might be helpful to jumpstart a career in that direction.
exlawgrrl said:wow, i don't know if i respect or pity someone who's willing to go through four years of medical school following three years of law school to enhance their resume for medical malpractice work. that's a lot of work for something that might make you more hireable yet not that much of a better attorney (not four years worth of hard work in medical school worth anyway). there just have to be easier ways to get there.
plus, is med mal that hard to get into? hell, if you've got the science classes for premed, just do ip work. anyway, just rambling about the fact that i seriously question someone's sanity if they'd go to medical school soley for the purpose of boosting their legal career. from my past experience, i only recommend going to a professional school if you expect to join that profession. sort of duh, but something i missed when i started law school.
dr. v. boombatz said:Is it hard to get into med mal- not at all. Is it hard to make money at it- yes! Not only do you have to understand the nature & extent of the medical error- you ahve to be able to express it in very simple terms to a jury and find a medical expert who will back you up. It is not as easy as non-lawyers think. In addition, I sometimes think that doctors make alot more money off med. mal practice cases than lawyers do. I know in the area where I practice, doctors get $2500-$5000 per written report and another $5K for a deposition. If they actually testify (approx. 2 to 3 hours) the $10 to $25+. Cha-ching! Almost better than surgery.......