Job adds that make me go...Ughhh

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Sanman

Sanman

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Happened to finally have a light day and was catching up on paperwork. Decided to browse the job listings as I do to see what is out there. So much :smack:here that I thought I would share:


We are a Internal medicine practice seeking a Psychotherapist part time to see and provide mental therapy services to patients.

-Requirement- Must possess a State License to practice psychology / psychotherapy.

-Requirement: Doctor of Philosophy (PhD) degree in psychology, or at least a master’s degree. You must be able to diagnose conditions using various tests – think the Rorschach test, which uses random shapes to draw out people’s beliefs and feelings.

If interested in position, please submit resume for review. Thank You so much.

Job Type: Part-time

Salary: $40.00 to $42.00 /hour
Members don't see this ad.
 
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WisNeuro said:
I don't know what's worse, the terrible "Requirement aspect" or the terrible hourly rate.
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Well if you are using a Rorschach to diagnose people and provide "mental therapy" , $40-42 is quite generous, IMO.
 
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Members don't see this ad :)
Therapist4Chnge said:
Advocacy....that ad is why we need it. Wow, what a mess.
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There are a lot more reasons for advocacy and bigger issues that need it. 7% haircut in medicare payments in 2021 is at the top of my list.
 
WisNeuro said:
I don't know what's worse, the terrible "Requirement aspect" or the terrible hourly rate.
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If my math is correct, that’s an annualized salary rate of ~83k. Right around the mid career median. I’d hardly call it a “terrible” rate. Part-time/FFS rates should run higher than salary, but it still isn’t horrible, especially for an earl career psychologist. Every thing else about that position is, in fact, terrible!
 
If one compares the median of 2015 salary survey to the median of the most recent survey, and uses an inflation calculator; it looks like salary purchase power is dropping.

Our profession is wildly underpaid.
 
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PsyDr said:
If one compares the median of 2015 salary survey to the median of the most recent survey, and uses an inflation calculator; it looks like salary purchase power is dropping.

Our profession is wildly underpaid.
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Where are the most recent survey numbers? The most recent numbers I have seen were for 2015.
 
I have encountered multiple job ads in which the posters clearly do not understand what credentials are required in our field. My personal favorite is jobs that require an “LCSW, LPC, or PhD/PsyD.” Why does a degree get to substitute a license?
 
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Some don't know....and don't care. We are not the cheapest option, so of course we get squeezed out.

We should be shifting towards leadership positions, working as specialists, and running orgs. The barn door has been open for decades in regard to talk therapy, we need to adapt or continue to be undercut.
 
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Members don't see this ad :)
Therapist4Chnge said:
Some don't know....and don't care. We are not the cheapest option, so of course we get squeezed out.

We should be shifting towards leadership positions, working as specialists, and running orgs. The barn door has been open for decades in regard to talk therapy, we need to adapt or continue to be undercut.
Click to expand...

This is the direction I am trying to shift my career.
 
ClinicalABA said:
If my math is correct, that’s an annualized salary rate of ~83k. Right around the mid career median. I’d hardly call it a “terrible” rate. Part-time/FFS rates should run higher than salary, but it still isn’t horrible, especially for an earl career psychologist. Every thing else about that position is, in fact, terrible!
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That was far lower than my starting salary more than 5 years ago. It's terrible. If mid career people want to accept terrible pay, that's on them.
 
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ClinicalABA said:
Yeah- started there more than 15 years ago and never looked back. Still, it’s the median for the field (and higher than median for PsyD students)
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I imagine academics may be dragging the median down. I can't imagine working for that salary unless it was part-time.
 
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WisNeuro said:
Not necessarily. Also, this was in the VA, where it does not matter what specialty you are, you are wed to the GS scale.
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Then how on earth is 83k far lower than your starting salary 5 years ago? For 2019 without locality pay, GS-13 and GS-14 are starting at 76k and 85k, respectively.
 
thebalmofhurtminds said:
Then how on earth is 83k far lower than your starting salary 5 years ago? For 2019 without locality pay, GS-13 and GS-14 are starting at 76k and 85k, respectively.
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The starting salary where I first worked is now 98k for GS-13 step 1.
 
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A lot of VA psychologists don't start at GS-13 though. I started at GS-12.
 
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thebalmofhurtminds said:
Then how on earth is 83k far lower than your starting salary 5 years ago? For 2019 without locality pay, GS-13 and GS-14 are starting at 76k and 85k, respectively.
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The way the tables are labeled and setup is confusing, but for GS-12 and GS-13 (which is where most psychologists are likely to come in) in 2019, starting salaries were 75k and 89k. No one that I know of uses the "base" pay rates (although that's what your pension is based on); rather, if there isn't a locality adjustment, the site uses the "rest of US" table.

Not many psychologists end up at GS-14, but some certainly do. Mainly lead psychologists (which can sometimes be a GS-15 at large medical centers, I believe), mid-level management (e.g., program or service director), and some (a little under half maybe?) training directors.

And yes, some of the locality adjustments are substantial. Hawaii, SF, and Houston are some of the highest. For GS-12 and GS-13 in 2019 in SF, for example, starting salaries were 91k and 108k, respectively.
 
AcronymAllergy said:
The way the tables are labeled and setup is confusing, but for GS-12 and GS-13 (which is where most psychologists are likely to come in) in 2019, starting salaries were 75k and 89k. No one that I know of uses the "base" pay rates (although that's what your pension is based on); rather, if there isn't a locality adjustment, the site uses the "rest of US" table.

Not many psychologists end up at GS-14, but some certainly do. Mainly lead psychologists (which can sometimes be a GS-15 at large medical centers, I believe), mid-level management (e.g., program or service director), and some (a little under half maybe?) training directors.

And yes, some of the locality adjustments are substantial. Hawaii, SF, and Houston are some of the highest. For GS-12 and GS-13 in 2019 in SF, for example, starting salaries were 91k and 108k, respectively.
Click to expand...


VA Pension is only based on the base pay rates? I thought it was your high 3 years with all adjustments?
 
ClinicalABA said:
Yeah, and poorly trained psychologist who bring nothing extra to the table, as well as those content to be over-trained therapists.
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I honestly doubt that has to do with it. I have worked for geriatrics companies where having a pulse gets you a job and you start anywhere from $80-85k. Now I am an east coast person, so that maybe higher than some, but is based on medicare rates. In those geriatric gigs, you were seeing 40 patients a week or more. You had to want to work, but the split sucked (50%). Some places 25 patients is considered full-time. My guess is that these numbers reflect lifestyle choices of psychologists and a general trend toward "helping people" and not looking at the numbers or being a second income.
 
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Sanman said:
VA Pension is only based on the base pay rates? I thought it was your high 3 years with all adjustments?
Click to expand...

It's definitely high-3 (although I think they're trying to change it to high-5 to reduce the amount). I'd read it was the non-locality adjusted pay, but I could be wrong. I don't remember where I saw that, honestly, but I'd thought it was OPM's website, or somewhere similar.

Edit: Per OPM's site, "Your 'high-3' average pay is the highest average basic pay you earned during any 3 consecutive years of service. These three years are usually your final three years of service, but can be an earlier period, if your basic pay was higher during that period. Your basic pay is the basic salary you earn for your position. It includes increases to your salary for which retirement deductions are withheld, such as shift rates. It does not include payments for overtime, bonuses, etc. (If your total service was less than 3 years, your average salary was figured by averaging your basic pay during all of your periods of creditable Federal service)."

I took "basic pay" to mean pay before locality adjustment, given how it's labeled on leave and earnings statements. Although since the retirement adjustments are held out based on the adjusted basic pay amount, I think, it'd make sense that those are the numbers used for calculating high-3.
 
AcronymAllergy said:
It's definitely high-3 (although I think they're trying to change it to high-5 to reduce the amount). I'd read it was the non-locality adjusted pay, but I could be wrong. I don't remember where I saw that, honestly, but I'd thought it was OPM's website, or somewhere similar.

Edit: Per OPM's site, "Your 'high-3' average pay is the highest average basic pay you earned during any 3 consecutive years of service. These three years are usually your final three years of service, but can be an earlier period, if your basic pay was higher during that period. Your basic pay is the basic salary you earn for your position. It includes increases to your salary for which retirement deductions are withheld, such as shift rates. It does not include payments for overtime, bonuses, etc. (If your total service was less than 3 years, your average salary was figured by averaging your basic pay during all of your periods of creditable Federal service)."

I took "basic pay" to mean pay before locality adjustment, given how it's labeled on leave and earnings statements. Although since the retirement adjustments are held out based on the adjusted basic pay amount, I think, it'd make sense that those are the numbers used for calculating high-3.
Click to expand...

What Counts Toward Your High-3

Locality adjustments are included in basic pay according to the above.
 
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Sanman said:
I honestly doubt that has to do with it. I have worked for geriatrics companies where having a pulse gets you a job and you start anywhere from $80-85k. Now I am an east coast person, so that maybe higher than some, but is based on medicare rates. In those geriatric gigs, you were seeing 40 patients a week or more. You had to want to work, but the split sucked (50%). Some places 25 patients is considered full-time. My guess is that these numbers reflect lifestyle choices of psychologists and a general trend toward "helping people" and not looking at the numbers or being a second income.
Click to expand...
Maybe. But there are also a number of "reputable" places that start their psychologists out at 65k. It's wild.
 
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thebalmofhurtminds said:
Maybe. But there are also a number of "reputable" places that start their psychologists out at 65k. It's wild.
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Oh, I don't disagree. I am just saying it is a choice of where you work rather than the quality of your training that dictates salary. Anyone can choose to make more money.
 
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I am actually extremely doubtful it is academic salaries driving it down. The only places I know of paying THAT far below the median these days are SLACs or small state schools. When you consider that most graduates pursue primary clinical careers and the total number of faculty positions in those types of places is dwarfed by the number in large AMCs (I think my department has something like 130 psychologist faculty and we did a recent salary re-mapping such that no one should be below the median for a full-time job)...I'm not sure I buy that as the cause. I know literally one person who is making below the median salary and he has side gigs that probably puts him close to or above it that are encouraged by his department because they know they pay like piss (not sure if the side gigs would be counted in the survey data...depends how they do it). From what I have been able to gather, even at the assistant professor level myself and most colleagues are above the median and some are WELL above the median.

I would guess its driven down by things like counseling centers, CMHCs and folks with very low-key private practices. Academics historically doesn't pay well given the downsides (hours, pressure, instability in soft money jobs, etc.) but its nothing like that.
 
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In my area, $65-75k is standard for ECPs, depending on where you work, but especially community mental health. More seasoned psychologists can command higher salaries somewhat, but the highest pay is reserved for administrative, Kaiser, prisons, medical centers, forensic/assessment, and the VA.

Where I interned in college counseling, starting pay was even lower at around $55k 5 years ago. I’ve also seen some professor jobs range from the $50s to the $80s in the same area, so academic pay varies greatly in my area.
 
Ollie123 said:
I am actually extremely doubtful it is academic salaries driving it down. The only places I know of paying THAT far below the median these days are SLACs or small state schools. When you consider that most graduates pursue primary clinical careers and the total number of faculty positions in those types of places is dwarfed by the number in large AMCs (I think my department has something like 130 psychologist faculty and we did a recent salary re-mapping such that no one should be below the median for a full-time job)...I'm not sure I buy that as the cause. I know literally one person who is making below the median salary and he has side gigs that probably puts him close to or above it that are encouraged by his department because they know they pay like piss (not sure if the side gigs would be counted in the survey data...depends how they do it). From what I have been able to gather, even at the assistant professor level myself and most colleagues are above the median and some are WELL above the median.

I would guess its driven down by things like counseling centers, CMHCs and folks with very low-key private practices. Academics historically doesn't pay well given the downsides (hours, pressure, instability in soft money jobs, etc.) but its nothing like that.
Click to expand...
Eh, I have an acquaintance from grad school who has a TT job at a very small (~2,300 students across two separate campuses) state university in the northeast who makes just under ~$50k.
 
futureapppsy2 said:
Eh, I have an acquaintance from grad school who has a TT job at a very small (~2,300 students across two separate campuses) state university in the northeast who makes just under ~$50k.
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I cannot fathom going to school/training as long as we all did, and accepting a salary that low for FT work.
 
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thebalmofhurtminds said:
Yikes.
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Back in 2009-10, I applied for a full-time TT job as a small NYC area college that was looking for someone to teach counseling students. I never even got an interview. Salary offered: $35k. I made more as an unlicensed post-doc instead.
 
Sanman said:
Back in 2009-10, I applied for a full-time TT job as a small NYC area college that was looking for someone to teach counseling students. I never even got an interview. Salary offered: $35k. I made more as an unlicensed post-doc instead.
Click to expand...
Well, I've switched to feeling much better about my salary negotiations now.
 
The average psychologist is not putting in the hours compared to many physician specialties. I get it, people want more of a lifestyle job, but that is part of why wages are lower. That said, college counseling and CMHC almost universally pay poorly, yet ppl still take those jobs at mid-level pay. In those settings they often are pitting psychologists against a lack of resources and the psychologists are working more instead of having the orgs pay for proper staffing. Work smarter AND harder.

I started my first academic job at an R1 in 2012. It was $85k split between an academic appointment and a small private practice, with making above that not hard to do. Research funding was used to buy out clinical time. I had other R1 clinical offers for $5k-$12k more, with PP options, but I took the option with the best opportunity + reasonable cost of living. Making $100k wasn't hard, but it took more hours if I wanted to conduct research, even with buyout time. It became harder as RVU expectations went up, but that seemed to happen at many AMCs...thus many ppl considering other options when 15-20yrs ago that seemed less common.

I'm in PP now and make significantly more, but it requires networking, staying late to meet deadlines, being more responsive than peers in the community, etc. Taking work home was pretty much required if I didn't want to be in the office before 8:30am or after 4:30pm. I still work 4-6hrs every other weekend, but that allows me to have flexibility during the week for networking, dinners, sports, etc. Some weeks I work 35hr, others 50-55hr. It is still less than I did at the AMCs, but it took me betting on myself to make the jump. It took a couple of years to break into legal work and plenty of less useful meetings.

My physician colleagues often work from home and on weekends too, and my frustrations about doing it on short notice were greeted with chuckles. It's part of the deal if you want to earn $150k-$250k+ as a psychologist. Yes...assessment work is easier to charge more. Yes...legal work pays more. Yes....I negotiated my rates and dropped commercial insurances. Psychologists can earn plenty of money, but it often requires a lot more pro-active actions by the psychologist, knowing your worth, and doing things to position yourself to earn more.

Working yourself to the bone w no clear avenue to increase your income is being the donkey at the petting zoo that walks in a circle until it dies from exhaustion. I don't blame the petting zoo bc anyone looking from the outside sees the unequal dynamic. I blame the donkey for not looking up and realizing that their actions and lack of change directly contributed to it's eventual downfall.
 
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My divergent opinion: A lot of it has to do with the work ethic of psychologists, and the lack of assertiveness. Every psychologist is capable of doing the most basic of math to figure out what they bring in. Every psychologist should be able to define exactly what their financial worth is to employers. Every psychologist should be able to state, "I know for a fact that I bring in this X revenue. I think Y% of that revenue is fair. " Trying to use amorphous terms instead to justify why you're worth X is naive at best.

Also: "process" things on your own time. That's not an excuse to work 3hrs/day.
 
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Sanman said:
Back in 2009-10, I applied for a full-time TT job as a small NYC area college that was looking for someone to teach counseling students. I never even got an interview. Salary offered: $35k. I made more as an unlicensed post-doc instead.
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~2012 I responded to an add for a psychologist/senior clinical job (with some program leadership responsibilities) at a CMHC-like setting. Hiring person started off phone interview by stating that they have never hire a psychologist before and weren't sure what a competitive salary was, but they were thinking ~35K. I literally laughed out loud. She asked for advice, and I told them that if the double that, they might get a somewhat passable candidate, but they'd need to as least triple it to assure competence for a leadership level position. She thanked me and we parted with her wondering why she wouldn't just hire 3 clinical social workers.

It's now 8 years later and I've been very happy with my decision to join her agency... Just kidding- i told her that you get what you pay for and wished her luck in her search. During my search, there were a lot of positions offering 55-65k salaries for psychologists, and this rate was common in the union contracts for these agencies, with very little wiggle room. I also been encouraged to apply for at TT position at a state university where I was adjuncting. Salary was 60K for 10 months.
 
PsyDr said:
My divergent opinion: A lot of it has to do with the work ethic of psychologists, and the lack of assertiveness. Every psychologist is capable of doing the most basic of math to figure out what they bring in. Every psychologist should be able to define exactly what their financial worth is to employers. Every psychologist should be able to state, "I know for a fact that I bring in this X revenue. I think Y% of that revenue is fair. " Trying to use amorphous terms instead to justify why you're worth X is naive at best.

Also: "process" things on your own time. That's not an excuse to work 3hrs/day.
Click to expand...


Agreed partially about the work ethic. The others issue is lack of teeth when it comes to lobbying and fighting for rights in our area of expertise. Why are mental heath codes reimbursed at half the rate for general medical codes? Why are we taking a 7% medicare pay cut to physicians can get reimbursed more for E/M codes. Why do H&B codes exclude payment for dementia and related behavioral concerns. One can be plenty well trained and have the system tie their hands. Okay, rant over. I have been annoyed at CMS lately.
 
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Therapist4Chnge said:
Working yourself to the bone w no clear avenue to increase your income is being the donkey at the petting zoo that walks in a circle until it dies from exhaustion. I don't blame the petting zoo bc anyone looking from the outside sees the unequal dynamic. I blame the donkey for not looking up and realizing that their actions and lack of change directly contributed to it's eventual downfall.
Click to expand...

I'd blame the petting zoo a bit also. See my rant in the post above this one.
 
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Sanman said:
Agreed partially about the work ethic. The others issue is lack of teeth when it comes to lobbying and fighting for rights in our area of expertise. Why are mental heath codes reimbursed at half the rate for general medical codes? Why are we taking a 7% medicare pay cut to physicians can get reimbursed more for E/M codes. Why do H&B codes exclude payment for dementia and related behavioral concerns. One can be plenty well trained and have the system tie their hands. Okay, rant over. I have been annoyed at CMS lately.
Click to expand...

Well I'd invite you to join me in donating money to those causes that reflect how important they are. And making tons of phone calls a year. And asking my family and friends to do the same. And writing emails.
 
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PsyDr said:
Well I'd invite you to join me in donating money to those causes that reflect how important they are. And making tons of phone calls a year. And asking my family and friends to do the same. And writing emails.
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Actually hoping to do more than that, but I don't want to broadcast my intentions here.
 
PsyDr said:
Well I'd invite you to join me in donating money to those causes that reflect how important they are. And making tons of phone calls a year. And asking my family and friends to do the same. And writing emails.
Click to expand...

And also, supporting your state and national advocacy groups. Drop the ideological purity tests and "boycotting" an organization because they only line up with 85% of your beliefs. It's stupid. Most psychologists like to rant about what's wrong with things, very few of those people will do anything about it directly, or financially support those who will do something about it.
 
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Sanman said:
Happened to finally have a light day and was catching up on paperwork. Decided to browse the job listings as I do to see what is out there. So much :smack:here that I thought I would share:


We are a Internal medicine practice seeking a Psychotherapist part time to see and provide mental therapy services to patients.

-Requirement- Must possess a State License to practice psychology / psychotherapy.

-Requirement: Doctor of Philosophy (PhD) degree in psychology, or at least a master’s degree. You must be able to diagnose conditions using various tests – think the Rorschach test, which uses random shapes to draw out people’s beliefs and feelings.

If interested in position, please submit resume for review. Thank You so much.

Job Type: Part-time

Salary: $40.00 to $42.00 /hour
Click to expand...
Not bad for someone with Masters degree
 
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