Job market for academic psychiatry, what's it like?

[bmuffinman]

I am very interested in academic psychiatry with research components, what is the job market like for tenure-track psychiatrists at major academic institutions? Can you choose your desired locations such as bi-coastal institutions with heavy research support? Or are faculty positions very limited?

It seems that psychiatrists have not much problem finding good jobs in the private practice setting, but I am wondering what it would be like in the academia. Any thoughts?

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[jymezg]

Currently work as a lab manager for UF's Dept of Psychiatry. Our department is constantly expanding. Check into it, very research oriented.

http://www.mbi.ufl.edu/
http://www.psychiatry.ufl.edu/

 

[dl2dp2]

I'm observing this tangentially as a MSTP @ a top program, so you can take my word with a grain of salt.

If you have a basic/clinical neuroscience background, and are looking into a R01-supported research career with mostly lab, with some clinical work, psychiatry is an excellent specialty. The job market is generally good, and most centers are hiring. This is in contrast to most of the basic biomedical departments and people w/ strict PhD training, where jobs are basically non-existent.

That said, I sorta feel like EVERYONE who are going into a top psych program is gunning for SOME sort of research/academic post, much more so compared to other residencies. My feeling is, although right now the positions/funding is there to be had, the competition is also relatively high. Whereas, in certain specialties (i.e. radiology, rad onc, surgeries), medical centers routinely have to BEG and PLEA for the best residents to stay academic--the reasoning being, the difference between private and academic salary in these disciplines can be enormous, whereas it is not so much in psychiatry. This is a double edged sword, in that i think basic science research in psych tends to be relatively higher quality because of the competition, esp. at high levels. Whereas, I don't know of any interesting brain science coming out of a radiology-based lab in the past 50 years.

The bottom line is, right now if you want an academic job, you should have no problem getting one. And as far as geography goes, if you have a reasonable training, you should be able to get into a major academic center with no problem. State U trained psychiatrist routinely get fellowships at top programs, and stay around for a faculty job. Now, will you be able to get into Harvard vs. Tufts--that's a different question all together.

I am very interested in academic psychiatry with research components, what is the job market like for tenure-track psychiatrists at major academic institutions? Can you choose your desired locations such as bi-coastal institutions with heavy research support? Or are faculty positions very limited?

It seems that psychiatrists have not much problem finding good jobs in the private practice setting, but I am wondering what it would be like in the academia. Any thoughts?

 

[OldPsychDoc]

I'm observing this tangentially as a MSTP @ a top program, so you can take my word with a grain of salt.

If you have a basic/clinical neuroscience background, and are looking into a R01-supported research career with mostly lab, with some clinical work, psychiatry is an excellent specialty. The job market is generally good, and most centers are hiring. This is in contrast to most of the basic biomedical departments and people w/ strict PhD training, where jobs are basically non-existent.

That said, I sorta feel like EVERYONE who are going into a top psych program is gunning for SOME sort of research/academic post, much more so compared to other residencies. My feeling is, although right now the positions/funding is there to be had, the competition is also relatively high. Whereas, in certain specialties (i.e. radiology, rad onc, surgeries), medical centers routinely have to BEG and PLEA for the best residents to stay academic--the reasoning being, the difference between private and academic salary in these disciplines can be enormous, whereas it is not so much in psychiatry. This is a double edged sword, in that i think basic science research in psych tends to be relatively higher quality because of the competition, esp. at high levels. Whereas, I don't know of any interesting brain science coming out of a radiology-based lab in the past 50 years.

The bottom line is, right now if you want an academic job, you should have no problem getting one. And as far as geography goes, if you have a reasonable training, you should be able to get into a major academic center with no problem. State U trained psychiatrist routinely get fellowships at top programs, and stay around for a faculty job. Now, will you be able to get into Harvard vs. Tufts--that's a different question all together.

Honestly too, I think another dynamic is that in psych it's relatively easy to do a day a week or so of outpatient clinic and have more of your time available to do the research stuff. It lets you keep your clinical skills fresh, and doesn't take you "out of the game" as much with respect to the lab or whatever.

 

[Tradewind]

Getting an assistant professorship is relatively easy, particularly if you stay where you trained. If you are an unknown without research funding, though, expect to do your fair share of clinical work to earn your salary. Being promoted beyond the assistant professor level is challenging everywhere, but is probably even more competitive at some places than others.

With current financial trends (and even with the low funding rates of late), I think it's a great time to consider academia, whether you're interested in research or the clinician-educator (or administrative) tracks. There's also the clinical associate route, if you want to focus on clinical care and get paid a bit more, but still want to remain in an academic setting. This path usually has no promotion pathway, but is sorta nice because it's predictable and less pressured. Often, you don't even have teaching duties, yet, you reap the benefits of being around the academic hospital setting (access to lectures, admitting privileges to inpatients and day hospitals, more collegial interactions).

Not too many downsides. If you decide against academia several years down the road, you'll have to settle for going into private practice and doubling your income!

 

[cleareyedguy]

The large majority of "academic" psychiatrists (including myself) are primarily clinical in that they may write and teach but their income is substantially derived from seeing patients. While the most academic programs select for people with an interest in "academics," most of their graduates will end up in these semi-academic jobs within 5 years. For most psychiatrists with FT academic appts, writing is done nights and weekends, and teaching is uncompensated. A subset of that group does substantive basic or clinical research, and a small subset of that group earns enough grants to be self supporting.

Generally speaking, it is only the last group that has any chance for tenure, which is generally dispensed only to people who bring in lots of money from grants, may leave for greener pastures, and are seen as unlikely to slack once they get the tenure. As far as I know, it is rarely given to anyone who is basically making a living out of clinical stuff, regardless of how good you are.

As for the job market, it depends very much on which specific area interests you, since there may be few jobs available in a very specific field. If what you want is one of those jobs that are acad/tchg/clinical and you're flexible, most places have jobs available annually.

 

[bmuffinman]

Thank you so much for all the encouraging thoughts and comments above!

I definitely agree with Sloux in that nearly "EVERYONE who are going into a top psych program is gunning for SOME sort of research/academic post." However, wouldn't the job market be extremely competitive if so many people are gunning for these academic spots?

Out of curiosity, if you don't end up with a nifty R01, can you still be on tenure track if you do clinical research and get other types of grant support? I've seen many faculty at associate professor or professor level who don't do basic science, but I think they are tenured, so how does that come by? Given the current economy, getting R01 is NOT a trivial task!

For those in the academic setting now, can anyone speak to how directly related to psychiatry does your research work have to be? I am asking this b/c clinically, I am very interested in psych. I think this is a fascinating field. However, science is fast-paced, and those who practice basic science frequently change or expand their areas of interest in a decade or so. Say I am interested in neuropsych studies now, years down the line, I might find other areas of molecular biology or genetic studies more promising. If the new subject of interest can only be more efficiently studied outside of the nervous system, do I have the freedom to make that change and work in non-psych-related areas if I am already a faculty at a psych dept?

 

[cleareyedguy]

A few clarifications: when I was talking about "clinical," I meant seeing patients with and without residents AND administration of clinical and educational programs. These aren't obviously "clinical," but in academic settings, "clinical" gets stuck in the academic title for those whose job is primarily clinical/educational/administrative.

Most academic faculty, including most full professors, are on a clinical track which is highly unlikely to get them tenured. This includes a lot of people who get a lot of research funding.

Most full professors even on the full academic track are untenured.

In this, medical schools are different from undergraduate campuses, where the goal of all faculty is tenure and job security.

We're different at least partly because clinical faculty can make more than researchers unless the researcher becomes a chairman or dean.

Ownership of the border between basic science in psych and other fields is highly regional so that neuropsych at my place may be "owned" by psych, while it may be owned by neuro down the street. The same guy doing the same BDNF research in my dept may get poached by a pharmacology dept elsewhere, or by neuro, though it's more likely that that same person will get recruited within the field in which s/he was trained (and which presumably contains the majority of his/her mentors and contacts). If you're really good at research (and hard working and lucky), you can get the RO1's and that may lead you to an actual tenured spot, but it's not a realistic goal for the large majority of psychiatrists at academic medical centers.