Job offer advice

[jksm]

Hi everyone! I am a 4th year veterinary student looking for her first vet job and I found a great practice I would like to work at in Columbus, OH. They are a private practice and really into trying to keep things in-house/ IMED, have orthopedics and are going to get a laparoscopic machine next year. I was wondering if there is anything a new grad wish they asked for in their contract or if this contract is appropriate and equitable or if there is anything I am forgetting to ask for. There was nothing about a quarterly meeting for performance goals/ improvement etc. I will be working 4 days a week with rotating Saturdays (one Saturday monthly) and there is no negative accrual or non-compete in the contract they sent.

THEIR OFFER:

• $128,000 per year or a fixed twenty-one percent (21%) of Employee’s “Annual Production Amount.
  • Employee’s “Annual Production Amount” shall be the amount of revenue collected by the Company or Affiliated Practices from veterinary services performed by Employee and eligible products sold by Employee in accordance with the Company’s policies during a twelve (12) month period beginning on the 1^(st) day of the month Employee’s employment commences with the Company.
  • In addition, a one-time sign on bonus of two thousand dollars ($2,000) will be given.
• Clothing allowance of $150.00 per year
• Combined two (2) weeks leave for PTO for sick, and vacation
  • If the employee meets the % method, then the vacation days and personal days are not in effect. When you reach the % method, you can still take vacation days as described above, but you will not be paid as a salaried employee
• CE allowance of at least $1,500 per year
• AVMA, OVMA, CVMA, Medical Board License, DEA and your Liability Insurance will be paid
• Eligible for medical benefits (medical, vision, & dental) after 30 days and retirement benefits after 1 year of service.

I think I would like to ask for 2-3 paid CE days, 2.5k in CE allowance (especially as a new grad), 15 days vacation, and maybe ask for a VIN/VetGirl etc subscription. I think I would also like the ability to renegotiate my salary after my first or second year based off of APT. I do not know if they do a pro-sal model, which is what I am most familiar with but I think I am okay with that for my first year because I know I will NOT be a cash cow my first year out lol.

I asked for 130k, which they supplemented with 128k and 2k bonus.

Thank you guys so much!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[SkiOtter]

Ask for no negative accrual. It just punishes you if you use PTO and then your PTO really isn’t paid time, it’s just time off where you’re digging into the negative accrual hole more 🫠

If they will, a lot of places are also doing away with non competes which can prevent you from working where you live and punish you that way as well if you leave.

 

[battie]

Okay, I'm 3.5 years out. Started at a GP/ER combo VCA for reference. I wish I had been more aggressive in my negotiating. Don't feel bad asking, the worst they'll do is say no.

$128,000 per year or a fixed twenty-one percent (21%) of Employee’s “Annual Production Amount.

• Employee’s “Annual Production Amount” shall be the amount of revenue collected by the Company or Affiliated Practices from veterinary services performed by Employee and eligible products sold by Employee in accordance with the Company’s policies during a twelve (12) month period beginning on the 1^(st) day of the month Employee’s employment commences with the Company.

You are on a pro-sal system here, you just won't get those production checks for a year. Honestly, if there is no negative accrual, there's no reason for you to wait that long. Ask for production checks ASAP, no more than 6 months out. Yeah, you'll struggle at first. But you'll get into a groove.

In addition, a one-time sign on bonus of two thousand dollars ($2,000) will be given.

I am personally ardently against bonus checks like this. 1) if you have to pay it back after a certain time, that includes the taxes that were with-held; 2) bonus are more heavily taxed, so you're missing out on more money; 3) 2k over 26 paycheck is $77 per paycheck, so I'd rather have the 2(
K as salary.

I personally am actually a fan of being paid hourly. For you (assuming 40hr work weeks) would be roughly $64/hr (assuming 128k instead of 130k). I get paid to write my records if I stay late, but am not producing, as a good example as to why I prefer hourly.

Combined two (2) weeks leave for PTO for sick, and vacation

Absolutely lame. Vacation and sick time should be completely separate. I get 1 hour sick time for 30 hours worked. Not sure on the vacay tbh since we can have our schedule organized around vacay pretty easy.

CE allowance of at least $1,500 per year

1500 ain't much. Between conference fees, flights, and hotel, youll struggle to go to a major conference. Agreed you should have paid CE days too.

 

[jksm]

Ask for no negative accrual. It just punishes you if you use PTO and then your PTO really isn’t paid time, it’s just time off where you’re digging into the negative accrual hole more 🫠

If they will, a lot of places are also doing away with non competes which can prevent you from working where you live and punish you that way as well if you leave.

There is no negative accrual or non-compete in the contract luckily!

 

[jksm8]

Okay, I'm 3.5 years out. Started at a GP/ER combo VCA for reference. I wish I had been more aggressive in my negotiating. Don't feel bad asking, the worst they'll do is say no.



You are on a pro-sal system here, you just won't get those production checks for a year. Honestly, if there is no negative accrual, there's no reason for you to wait that long. Ask for production checks ASAP, no more than 6 months out. Yeah, you'll struggle at first. But you'll get into a groove.



I am personally ardently against bonus checks like this. 1) if you have to pay it back after a certain time, that includes the taxes that were with-held; 2) bonus are more heavily taxed, so you're missing out on more money; 3) 2k over 26 paycheck is $77 per paycheck, so I'd rather have the 2(
K as salary.

I personally am actually a fan of being paid hourly. For you (assuming 40hr work weeks) would be roughly $64/hr (assuming 128k instead of 130k). I get paid to write my records if I stay late, but am not producing, as a good example as to why I prefer hourly.



Absolutely lame. Vacation and sick time should be completely separate. I get 1 hour sick time for 30 hours worked. Not sure on the vacay tbh since we can have our schedule organized around vacay pretty easy.



1500 ain't much. Between conference fees, flights, and hotel, youll struggle to go to a major conference. Agreed you should have paid CE days too.

Hey! Thank you for your response!

I definitely think most sign-on bonuses are icky. There is no clause about paying it back, but I definitely do NOT want to be taxed on such a "small" amount. I will see if I can negotiate something different (130k salary no bonus), because I agree I'd rather have it in a salary form. I am wondering if it would almost be worth using that 2k towards my loans as a type of student loan repayment if they refuse to add it to my salary?

I moved the CE to 2.5k, which I feel like is standard in vet med now. I agree 1.5k in this economy is not going to pay for much lol. I'm assuming it is this low since Columbus, OH has that huge midwestern veterinary conference each year, but I would like to do dental and orthopedic CE in the near future so I am assuming it will cost more than 1.5k.

15 days of PTO is ~3.5 weeks off, which I think I am okay with? I have never really taken time off etc/ do not often get sick - so I think I am okay with it? I also do not plan on having kids nor do I want them, so most of my vacation time will be with my husband and hopefully we will go on trips at least once a year. Additionally, with 3 days of paid time off for CE, that puts me at ~4 weeks of paid time off. I think I'm just not sure how to feel about it in general, if that makes sense :').

 

[Minnerbelle]

There is no negative accrual or non-compete in the contract luckily!

I mean… no negative accrual from year to year, but absolutely yes within the year. Don’t let them fool you with that “no negative accrual” buzzword that means absolutely nothing.

Any day you take off or don’t produce during the year = negative bonus for another day. So unless you don’t expect to break even (you expect to not get a dime in annual production bonus), you are signing up for unpaid time off… a paltry 2 weeks including sick time at that… and negative accrual. The only two ways to mitigate this is to get paid out production more often (daily will do the trick, but typically that is only for relief vets vs. monthly is prob the best you’ll get as an associate vs. quarterly isn’t awesome but better than yearly), or for the clinic to “credit you” for each day of PTO taken when calculating production. But it is unlikely that a clinic owner is going to change how they compensate their associates especially if it’s a multi doctor practice.

Those benefits suck, so I would work on that. Ask for way more time off and CE funds. Your time off is unpaid but it’ll at least give you the option to take that time off. But as far as the actual salary and production… I’m not sure it matters too much because at the end of the day, you’ll end up being paid based on your productivity one way or another if you are a gp associate. If you are on salary/hourly… management will typically crunch numbers at some interval and if you aren’t meeting production (even if you’re not actually on production) they will likely decrease it to ensure you’re earning your keep. Though… if you’re overproducing, they rarely give you a raise on their own accord so better to be overpaid than underpaid as long as you know the other shoe may drop at anytime I guess and that management may harbor some resentment towards you for underproducing. The only time they’ll not do that is if they’re purposely keeping you at a higher wage than you produce for a reason because you are too valuable for them to lose, but I wouldn’t count on that. Many practices are hiring with base salaries that aren’t sustainable for the new grad to stay competitive, and it can cause a problem down the road. Before you sign, I would ask the owner how much they expect you to produce in a year, and ask what is the range of productivity of their full time vets as that will be an excellent indicator. Also speak to the other associates and ask them how they feel about how production works for this clinic. Are they privy to their production numbers at anytime (access through clinic software) vs. do you get regular reports vs. do they give that to you just one a year when you get your bonus in which case how detailed is it? Vs. is it a big mystery?

21% is okay. That number matters more than anything else. But the devil’s in the details. For what services/products do you earn 21%?

As far as the base salary, check out the AVMA salary calculator. It will give you average for your experience level and location to give you an idea. If based on further questioning you expect to be productive beyond your salary, then just know that many clinics will set the base salary at maybe 20% or so lower than your expected take home.

At the end of the day, how well and efficiently the clinic is run, how busy it is (is there enough business for another full time vet), and how profitable it is will have the biggest determination on how much you will earn (and likely how happy you will be) provided you are paid a good percentage for production and the clinic doesn’t exclude a ton of services/products from calculation. So unless the numbers for base salary are way low, I’m not sure I would get super heated about it. The market is cooling and salaries are starting to go down… so pick and choose your battles.

 

[jksm8]

I mean… no negative accrual from year to year, but absolutely yes within the year. Don’t let them fool you with that “no negative accrual” buzzword that means absolutely nothing.

Any day you take off or don’t produce during the year = negative bonus for another day. So unless you don’t expect to break even (you expect to not get a dime in annual production bonus), you are signing up for unpaid time off… a paltry 2 weeks including sick time at that… and negative accrual. The only two ways to mitigate this is to get paid out production more often (daily will do the trick, but typically that is only for relief vets vs. monthly is prob the best you’ll get as an associate vs. quarterly isn’t awesome but better than yearly), or for the clinic to “credit you” for each day of PTO taken when calculating production. But it is unlikely that a clinic owner is going to change how they compensate their associates especially if it’s a multi doctor practice.

Those benefits suck, so I would work on that. Ask for way more time off and CE funds. Your time off is unpaid but it’ll at least give you the option to take that time off. But as far as the actual salary and production… I’m not sure it matters too much because at the end of the day, you’ll end up being paid based on your productivity one way or another if you are a gp associate. If you are on salary/hourly… management will typically crunch numbers at some interval and if you aren’t meeting production (even if you’re not actually on production) they will likely decrease it to ensure you’re earning your keep. Though… if you’re overproducing, they rarely give you a raise on their own accord so better to be overpaid than underpaid as long as you know the other shoe may drop at anytime I guess and that management may harbor some resentment towards you for underproducing. The only time they’ll not do that is if they’re purposely keeping you at a higher wage than you produce for a reason because you are too valuable for them to lose, but I wouldn’t count on that. Many practices are hiring with base salaries that aren’t sustainable for the new grad to stay competitive, and it can cause a problem down the road. Before you sign, I would ask the owner how much they expect you to produce in a year, and ask what is the range of productivity of their full time vets as that will be an excellent indicator. Also speak to the other associates and ask them how they feel about how production works for this clinic. Are they privy to their production numbers at anytime (access through clinic software) vs. do you get regular reports vs. do they give that to you just one a year when you get your bonus in which case how detailed is it? Vs. is it a big mystery?

21% is okay. That number matters more than anything else. But the devil’s in the details. For what services/products do you earn 21%?

As far as the base salary, check out the AVMA salary calculator. It will give you average for your experience level and location to give you an idea. If based on further questioning you expect to be productive beyond your salary, then just know that many clinics will set the base salary at maybe 20% or so lower than your expected take home.

At the end of the day, how well and efficiently the clinic is run, how busy it is (is there enough business for another full time vet), and how profitable it is will have the biggest determination on how much you will earn (and likely how happy you will be) provided you are paid a good percentage for production and the clinic doesn’t exclude a ton of services/products from calculation. So unless the numbers for base salary are way low, I’m not sure I would get super heated about it. The market is cooling and salaries are starting to go down… so pick and choose your battles.

I met with a contract lawyer who told me that there is no negative accrual clause in the contract, so I feel pretty confident about that. I definitely understand what you are saying about being production based causing a lack of accrual if I take time off though. I definitely have questions about what counts towards production and how the earnings are broken down, which I have flagged to discuss with the medical director. Additionally, I have when production gets paid out to be flagged to talk about because there is no indication as to what time that will be paid out. I think adding a performance meeting every quarter or 6 months wouldn't be a bad idea, but Ohio is an at-will employment state, so while I think this will be honored by the Dr., legally it may not be (if that makes sense).

Since Columbus, OH is a pretty saturated area for vets (OSU, MedVet etc), a salary of 125k to 130k is reasonable for the area. AVMA says I expect to fall within the salary range of $124,315 - $138,054. I will definitely ask the Dr. about how much they except me to produce in a year and their productivity/ APT!

I agree I plan on negotiating the benefits to 3k CE allowance my first year, then 2.5k every subsequent year with 3 days of paid CE; 14 days of PTO still since I asked for 3 CE days, maybe I'll try to negotiate 15 days; and $200 for uniforms.

Please let me know if I am off base with understanding your post! I haven't ever had to negotiate a contract - so this is really new to me and all of your advice is very much appreciated!!!

 

[battie]

I will see if I can negotiate something different (130k salary no bonus), because I agree I'd rather have it in a salary form

The added benefit of having it be salary is that it's a recurring 2k every year. That's what they're trying to avoid paying. If you stay for 2yrs + then they benefit because they save that money.

I have never really taken time off etc/ do not often get sick - so I think I am okay with it?

I mean, you don't get sick often now. But one of our young, otherwise healthy doctors got COVID and flu at the same time and was hospitalized for 6 weeks. Short term disability covers that time... But at 60% of your salary. For the first time ever, I called out sick on shift and for the next day because we've had a plague moving through our staff.

Then there are family emergencies. I went down to my parents last year when my dad was hospitalized for a month and he took a brief turn south. I did an overnight, got home, and my husband took me immediately to the airport. I was gone for 72 hours from take off to landing cause I worked the next day. Didn't want to use up time in case he died and I had to go help my mom uproot her entire life in addition to grieve.

I was raised with "hope for the best, prepare for the worst". 90% of the time, you'll be fine. But the 10% of the time can really nail you down and put you in a bind. How long can you afford to go without work and rely on short term or long term disability (which I think is 80% or salary)?

 

[jksm8]

The added benefit of having it be salary is that it's a recurring 2k every year. That's what they're trying to avoid paying. If you stay for 2yrs + then they benefit because they save that money.



I mean, you don't get sick often now. But one of our young, otherwise healthy doctors got COVID and flu at the same time and was hospitalized for 6 weeks. Short term disability covers that time... But at 60% of your salary. For the first time ever, I called out sick on shift and for the next day because we've had a plague moving through our staff.

Then there are family emergencies. I went down to my parents last year when my dad was hospitalized for a month and he took a brief turn south. I did an overnight, got home, and my husband took me immediately to the airport. I was gone for 72 hours from take off to landing cause I worked the next day. Didn't want to use up time in case he died and I had to go help my mom uproot her entire life in addition to grieve.

I was raised with "hope for the best, prepare for the worst". 90% of the time, you'll be fine. But the 10% of the time can really nail you down and put you in a bind. How long can you afford to go without work and rely on short term or long term disability (which I think is 80% or salary)?

No absolutely! I will try to negotiate a 130k salary flat with no bonus.

I guess I have a "unique" circumstance in which I do not talk to most of my family after years of physical and emotional abuse that I am still dealing with. I definitely push of my own wellness sometimes, so it's hard to think of being sick etc - I always had to be the person to work through anything to provide for my family from a young age so I have never really taken any sick time, which I realize is *not* appropriate now. I definitely will ask to see if there is anyway to have just sick leave or a few more days of PTO!

 

[pp9]

I always had to be the person to work through anything to provide for my family from a young age so I have never really taken any sick time, which I realize is *not* appropriate now. I definitely will ask to see if there is anyway to have just sick leave or a few more days of PTO!

A lot of people have to work through this mindset - you are used to decades of schooling where your time off was assigned to you and expected. In USA in particular, the culture is still very much 'job first, life second.' Get out in the real world and ask around - many people will tell you they have PTO they lose every year because they simply don't take it. Take the PTO. Anything less than 3 weeks PTO these days is a red flag imo, especially when sick time isn't separate. If they don't budge on two weeks, I would insist on rapidly increasing yearly PTO allowances (ex: after 1 year of employment, you jump to 3 weeks).

maybe ask for a VIN/VetGirl etc subscription.

I recommend the Plumb's phone app too - the time saved by using the search function alone is worth it. Probably the only vet app/software I've used consistently in my 5.5 years out. I personally don't like VIN and never used it as a new grad, but plenty of people like it.

Clothing allowance of $150.00 per year

$150 for uniform is also essentially two scrub tops and 1-2 pairs of pants, depending on the brand you choose. Should be $500/year, or at least $500 your first year so you can get your gear with the hospital logos on it, shoes, etc. Logo'd clothing (assuming that's what they'd want) is stupidly overpriced so $150 gets you no where.

Quality sets of scrubs, even without logos, will run you anywhere from $70-100, at least with the brands I would consider. I only wear Cherokee infinity these days, and a single set is pushing $100 on Amazon. If you're wearing scrubs all day, it is absolutely worth investing in sets that are comfy, durable, and wash up well.

retirement benefits after 1 year of service.

Make sure there is an employer match to your 401k if this is not what you mean by 'retirement benefits.'

I asked for 130k, which they supplemented with 128k and 2k bonus.

A 2k bonus is not worth even being written in an offer imo...that's kind pathetic. If they offer a bigger bonus but with a payback clause, I would cautiously consider it, and keep that money in a high-yield account untouched until you satisfy whatever timeline requirements they impose.

 

[jksm]

A lot of people have to work through this mindset - you are used to decades of schooling where your time off was assigned to you and expected. In USA in particular, the culture is still very much 'job first, life second.' Get out in the real world and ask around - many people will tell you they have PTO they lose every year because they simply don't take it. Take the PTO. Anything less than 3 weeks PTO these days is a red flag imo, especially when sick time isn't separate. If they don't budge on two weeks, I would insist on rapidly increasing yearly PTO allowances (ex: after 1 year of employment, you jump to 3 weeks).


I recommend the Plumb's phone app too - the time saved by using the search function alone is worth it. Probably the only vet app/software I've used consistently in my 5.5 years out. I personally don't like VIN and never used it as a new grad, but plenty of people like it.


$150 for uniform is also essentially two scrub tops and 1-2 pairs of pants, depending on the brand you choose. Should be $500/year, or at least $500 your first year so you can get your gear with the hospital logos on it, shoes, etc. Logo'd clothing (assuming that's what they'd want) is stupidly overpriced so $150 gets you no where.

Quality sets of scrubs, even without logos, will run you anywhere from $70-100, at least with the brands I would consider. I only wear Cherokee infinity these days, and a single set is pushing $100 on Amazon. If you're wearing scrubs all day, it is absolutely worth investing in sets that are comfy, durable, and wash up well.


Make sure there is an employer match to your 401k if this is not what you mean by 'retirement benefits.'


A 2k bonus is not worth even being written in an offer imo...that's kind pathetic. If they offer a bigger bonus but with a payback clause, I would cautiously consider it, and keep that money in a high-yield account untouched until you satisfy whatever timeline requirements they impose.

The added benefit of having it be salary is that it's a recurring 2k every year. That's what they're trying to avoid paying. If you stay for 2yrs + then they benefit because they save that money.



I mean, you don't get sick often now. But one of our young, otherwise healthy doctors got COVID and flu at the same time and was hospitalized for 6 weeks. Short term disability covers that time... But at 60% of your salary. For the first time ever, I called out sick on shift and for the next day because we've had a plague moving through our staff.

Then there are family emergencies. I went down to my parents last year when my dad was hospitalized for a month and he took a brief turn south. I did an overnight, got home, and my husband took me immediately to the airport. I was gone for 72 hours from take off to landing cause I worked the next day. Didn't want to use up time in case he died and I had to go help my mom uproot her entire life in addition to grieve.

I was raised with "hope for the best, prepare for the worst". 90% of the time, you'll be fine. But the 10% of the time can really nail you down and put you in a bind. How long can you afford to go without work and rely on short term or long term disability (which I think is 80% or salary)?

I mean… no negative accrual from year to year, but absolutely yes within the year. Don’t let them fool you with that “no negative accrual” buzzword that means absolutely nothing.

Any day you take off or don’t produce during the year = negative bonus for another day. So unless you don’t expect to break even (you expect to not get a dime in annual production bonus), you are signing up for unpaid time off… a paltry 2 weeks including sick time at that… and negative accrual. The only two ways to mitigate this is to get paid out production more often (daily will do the trick, but typically that is only for relief vets vs. monthly is prob the best you’ll get as an associate vs. quarterly isn’t awesome but better than yearly), or for the clinic to “credit you” for each day of PTO taken when calculating production. But it is unlikely that a clinic owner is going to change how they compensate their associates especially if it’s a multi doctor practice.

Those benefits suck, so I would work on that. Ask for way more time off and CE funds. Your time off is unpaid but it’ll at least give you the option to take that time off. But as far as the actual salary and production… I’m not sure it matters too much because at the end of the day, you’ll end up being paid based on your productivity one way or another if you are a gp associate. If you are on salary/hourly… management will typically crunch numbers at some interval and if you aren’t meeting production (even if you’re not actually on production) they will likely decrease it to ensure you’re earning your keep. Though… if you’re overproducing, they rarely give you a raise on their own accord so better to be overpaid than underpaid as long as you know the other shoe may drop at anytime I guess and that management may harbor some resentment towards you for underproducing. The only time they’ll not do that is if they’re purposely keeping you at a higher wage than you produce for a reason because you are too valuable for them to lose, but I wouldn’t count on that. Many practices are hiring with base salaries that aren’t sustainable for the new grad to stay competitive, and it can cause a problem down the road. Before you sign, I would ask the owner how much they expect you to produce in a year, and ask what is the range of productivity of their full time vets as that will be an excellent indicator. Also speak to the other associates and ask them how they feel about how production works for this clinic. Are they privy to their production numbers at anytime (access through clinic software) vs. do you get regular reports vs. do they give that to you just one a year when you get your bonus in which case how detailed is it? Vs. is it a big mystery?

21% is okay. That number matters more than anything else. But the devil’s in the details. For what services/products do you earn 21%?

As far as the base salary, check out the AVMA salary calculator. It will give you average for your experience level and location to give you an idea. If based on further questioning you expect to be productive beyond your salary, then just know that many clinics will set the base salary at maybe 20% or so lower than your expected take home.

At the end of the day, how well and efficiently the clinic is run, how busy it is (is there enough business for another full time vet), and how profitable it is will have the biggest determination on how much you will earn (and likely how happy you will be) provided you are paid a good percentage for production and the clinic doesn’t exclude a ton of services/products from calculation. So unless the numbers for base salary are way low, I’m not sure I would get super heated about it. The market is cooling and salaries are starting to go down… so pick and choose your battles.

Ask for no negative accrual. It just punishes you if you use PTO and then your PTO really isn’t paid time, it’s just time off where you’re digging into the negative accrual hole more 🫠

If they will, a lot of places are also doing away with non competes which can prevent you from working where you live and punish you that way as well if you leave.

Hi you guys! I wasn’t sure if tagging you all individually by username would work so here this is 🥲 sorry if this is annoying in advance.

Wow do I have an update for you guys. I asked for $200 uniforms, 14 days PTO, 40 hours sick leave (paid if used, lost if not), 3 days of CE and bumped my CE allowance up to 2.5k.

I met with the medical director and the first thing out of his mouth was “You know… the lord provides for me” and I was so confused. He was hurt by my counter-offer and wanted to know why I didn’t want to take the sign-on bonus. Explained to him that it is more heavily taxed than a regular salary, which he did not know. He said “you know I had you on this pedestal, then when i got this offer back I thought less of you”. Then, he wanted to know why I wanted close to 5 weeks off, which he said is not reasonable because he is running a business and doesn’t know about my work-ethic. I said that CE is not vacation - it is work that I am bringing back to the clinic & making you money with. Then he wanted to know if I have someone sick i need to take care of, to which I said “no not currently, by my FIL did drop dead on a random Tuesday last year.” And then he said “you know I’m hurt because I take care of my people” and in my head I’m like if you can’t trust my work ethic, i can’t trust that you take care of your people? I basically said that the only concessions I’m willing to make is 16 days PTO, no sick, 3 days of CE, 2.5 k for CE allowance and $200 uniforms. He was like “we don’t count CE hours but we can start for you” and i was like “well i don’t want to be inconveniencing anyone” and then he was like “whatever you send over I will sign”.

So then i left the negotiation and cried in my car :’)! I will not be taking this job even though i loved the practice and the people and the chance to do orthopedics.

 

[SkiOtter]

I will not be taking this job even though i loved the practice and the people and the chance to do orthopedics.

Sending hugs🩷🩷🩷🩷 you’ll find the perfect practice for you. It’s out there🩷🩷🩷🩷

 

[pp9]

“You know… the lord provides for me”

“you know I had you on this pedestal, then when i got this offer back I thought less of you”.

Run far and fast

 

[battie]

Explained to him that it is more heavily taxed than a regular salary, which he did not know

Besides the quotes PP provided would have made me run. But how does a business owner that runs the finances not know bonuses are taxed more heavily?

If you were still thinking about this practice, I would then tell you to ask about the financial stability of the practice with a statement like that.

Proof private practice is not always better.

 

[jksm]

Besides the quotes PP provided would have made me run. But how does a business owner that runs the finances not know bonuses are taxed more heavily?

If you were still thinking about this practice, I would then tell you to ask about the financial stability of the practice with a statement like that.

Proof private practice is not always better.

EXACTLY! I was like you either know bonuses are heavily taxed or you are running a business - these things are NOT mutually exclusive and like… what is happening at this place??? The financial stability I guess is good? They offered for me to meet with their financial advisor to talk about production % break downs because I wasn’t getting a straight answer out of the medical director when I asked him clarifying questions over the phone. They didn’t even have maternity leave!!! (Which i don’t plan on having kids but they literally have a pregnant person at their hospital right now??? So what is happening with that???)

This place is definitely a pass for me regardless. I feel bad b/c of my super positive work interview and meeting everyone, but this whole convo and contract negotiation was weird AF. i don’t want to work at a place where I have to figure out how the medical director, who will be my primary mentor, thinks of me day to day and what he will think of me when I inevitably make a mistake.

 

[JaynaAli]

I can understand being disappointed but it definitely sounds like a blessing in disguise. For your sake, I’m glad they showed true colors before you signed anything.

 

[SkiOtter]

They didn’t even have maternity leave!!! (Which i don’t plan on having kids but they literally have a pregnant person at their hospital right now??? So what is happening with that???)

I will say there are a handful of places who pay for short term disability for employees and use that as maternity leave. Not that I like it, but that’s a possibility for what they do?

 

[jksm]

I will say there are a handful of places who pay for short term disability for employees and use that as maternity leave. Not that I like it, but that’s a possibility for what they do?

Nothing about disability in the contract from what the contract lawyer and professional development advisor saw either. Only mention of disability is in the termination section of the contract.

 

[battie]

The majority of private practices don't provide mat leave. VCA didn't have it until 2022, and only 4 weeks. I didn't use any from NVA.

 

[SkiOtter]

The majority of private practices don't provide mat leave. VCA didn't have it until 2022, and only 4 weeks. I didn't use any from NVA.

MVP used to have it as corp paid short term disability but changed to actual 100% paid Mat leave in 2023 (don’t remember how many weeks) and HVP has 6 weeks corp paid short term disability that they use for it

 

[JaynaAli]

Not that I plan to ever need it, but my job (not a traditional clinic) does six weeks paid parental leave, then there are six weeks via disability insurance after that, and a lot of people add in some of their PTO too. Or even taking some unpaid FMLA time is an option. This thread makes me very grateful my company gives above average options, even if we do still lag far behind other countries in that regard.

 

[jksm]

final chapter for some resolution:

Professionally texted the medical director saying “thanks but no thanks” and he was shocked I declined because at the end of our convo he was willing to sign anything that I sent over. He wanted more clarification, and I kept it short and brief about how some of the feedback was disheartening and that my intentions were brought into question which ultimately influenced my decision. He said he was sorry to let me down and wanted me to let him know if there was an opportunity to amend this situation to which I didn’t respond.

Then the hospital manager reaches out to me and says he’s not great at communicating and thought that we talked through some stipulations and came to an agreement. HM said that they both think I am spectacular and amazing. I offered to call her to let her know how I felt and kept it very professional by saying “I know his intentions were positive but the impact was off-putting and hurtful calling into question my work ethic and that he thought less of me after my counter offer”. I told her I met with contract lawyers and professional development department at my vet school about it and they offered great advice and industry standard insights that I amended to my needs. She said the MD wanted to be cognizant of his other doctors contracts xyz but I was like… their contracts and ability to negotiate their contracts is none of my business and doesn’t have to do with me- either say no let’s find a middle ground or yes. Anyways HM was like “I didnt want you to meet with the MD alone because he can be bad at communicating and gets anxious over contracts because it’s not his strength but we loved your resume so much we didn’t want to go through the hiring manager” but then in my head I’m like… you guys are supposed to be putting your best foot forward bc that is what I am doing and maybe you shouldn’t have him negotiating contracts with future employees bc of his communication? At the end of it I basically said “you know this decision was really difficult for me and I am so torn up about it and have put in so much thought into it because I *loved* this practice, but I don’t think I can accept an offer because I can’t work somewhere where I don’t know what page I am ultimately on with my MD”. She was like “I am happy and proud of you for standing up for yourself because i know in vet med that can be difficult to do and I know this decision you didn’t make lightly but please know I am happy to talk at any time or if you want us all to sit down and talk about you working here” and that was that.

 

[pp9]

the MD wanted to be cognizant of his other doctors contracts xyz but I was like… their contracts and ability to negotiate their contracts is none of my business and doesn’t have to do with me-

This is reason alone to have turned down this job. If their contracts are no longer competitive for the market/times, that's a hospital (and corporate) problem, not a me problem. Also tells you that they probably aren't reviewing contracts against the market and adjusting (in the employees' favor).

Hopefully this place has learned its lesson - imo medical directors play important roles, but hiring shouldn't be one of them

 

[VIN-Foundation]

But how does a business owner that runs the finances not know bonuses are taxed more heavily?

Because they aren't. Bonuses are ordinary income just like wages. They are taxed at the same rate. However they can be withheld at a different rate depending on circumstances.

 

[battie]

Because they aren't. Bonuses are ordinary income just like wages. They are taxed at the same rate. However they can be withheld at a different rate depending on circumstances.

You learn something new every day

 

[EB73674]

Because they aren't. Bonuses are ordinary income just like wages. They are taxed at the same rate. However they can be withheld at a different rate depending on circumstances.

Although I think earning that amount of income in one year can put you into a different tax bracket, right? Unless I've misunderstood & that's what you meant?

 

[JaynaAli]

Although I think earning that amount of income in one year can put you into a different tax bracket, right? Unless I've misunderstood & that's what you meant?

Since we have a progressive tax system, if you make 175k a year and get a 50k bonus, your total income is 225k you’re “in” a 32% bracket, but that doesn’t mean you pay 32% tax on that whole 225k. You're only taxed 32% on ~33k (from $192k to 225k that you bring in, since that’s what falls within that 192-244k 32% bracket [using 2024 numbers]). But often, bonuses have more taxes withheld from your net pay. For example, I had 23% of my gross income withheld for taxes on my last “normal” paycheck. I also got a monthly ‘bonus’ check for extra work, and they withheld 28% of my income from that bonus check. That’s kinda what Bats was talking about when she said bonuses are taxed more…because you get less for takehome so it feels like you’re taxed more. But to VIN Foundations’s point, I’m not *actually* being taxed 5% more on the bonus by the government, they’re just holding more out right now. It should all even out in the end based upon total gross income when I do my yearly taxes and either get a refund or owe more. A lot of places will just withhold a flat amount on bonuses. They can also combine it with your regular income and not do a flat withholding, it just depends on how your company handles their payroll.

 

[EB73674]

Since we have a progressive tax system, if you make 175k a year and get a 50k bonus, your total income is 225k you’re “in” a 32% bracket, but that doesn’t mean you pay 32% tax on that whole 225k. You're only taxed 32% on ~33k (from $192k to 225k that you bring in, since that’s what falls within that 192-244k 32% bracket [using 2024 numbers]). But often, bonuses have more taxes withheld from your net pay. For example, I had 23% of my gross income withheld for taxes on my last “normal” paycheck. I also got a monthly ‘bonus’ check for extra work, and they withheld 28% of my income from that bonus check. That’s kinda what Bats was talking about when she said bonuses are taxed more…because you get less for takehome so it feels like you’re taxed more. But to VIN Foundations’s point, I’m not *actually* being taxed 5% more on the bonus by the government, they’re just holding more out right now. It should all even out in the end based upon total gross income when I do my yearly taxes and either get a refund or owe more. A lot of places will just withhold a flat amount on bonuses. They can also combine it with your regular income and not do a flat withholding, it just depends on how your company handles their payroll.

Awesome that makes sense, thank you for the explanation!

 

[VIN-Foundation]

Although I think earning that amount of income in one year can put you into a different tax bracket, right? Unless I've misunderstood & that's what you meant?

Sure. Any time your wages are increased it could potentially put you in a different tax bracket. But that's not different for a bonus than for other income.

My point was the idea that bonuses are taxed at different rates than other wages is a myth. So if someone wants to give me a bonus ... bring it on.

 

[VetMed1]

Hey! Thank you for your response!

I definitely think most sign-on bonuses are icky. There is no clause about paying it back, but I definitely do NOT want to be taxed on such a "small" amount. I will see if I can negotiate something different (130k salary no bonus), because I agree I'd rather have it in a salary form. I am wondering if it would almost be worth using that 2k towards my loans as a type of student loan repayment if they refuse to add it to my salary?

I moved the CE to 2.5k, which I feel like is standard in vet med now. I agree 1.5k in this economy is not going to pay for much lol. I'm assuming it is this low since Columbus, OH has that huge midwestern veterinary conference each year, but I would like to do dental and orthopedic CE in the near future so I am assuming it will cost more than 1.5k.

15 days of PTO is ~3.5 weeks off, which I think I am okay with? I have never really taken time off etc/ do not often get sick - so I think I am okay with it? I also do not plan on having kids nor do I want them, so most of my vacation time will be with my husband and hopefully we will go on trips at least once a year. Additionally, with 3 days of paid time off for CE, that puts me at ~4 weeks of paid time off. I think I'm just not sure how to feel about it in general, if that makes sense :').

If they aren’t going up to 130k, you could have them put the extra 2k paid directly to your student loans instead as that will not be taxed.

 

[pp9]

If they aren’t going up to 130k, you could have them put the extra 2k paid directly to your student loans instead as that will not be taxed.

This is only true up to a certain amount. In OP's case I think they'd be fine but some of those corporate benefits might exceed that and end up on someone's taxes as supplemental income. IRS wants their money!

Another pro tip: consider dumping any supplemental income directly into your 401k (would require that your employer be willing to do this, of course). You'll still have to pay FICA tax, but you avoid state and federal withholding.

 

[VetMed1]

This is only true up to a certain amount. In OP's case I think they'd be fine but some of those corporate benefits might exceed that and end up on someone's taxes as supplemental income. IRS wants their money!

Another pro tip: consider dumping any supplemental income directly into your 401k (would require that your employer be willing to do this, of course). You'll still have to pay FICA tax, but you avoid state and federal withholding.

oh well luckily I’m in FL where there is no state income tax!🤩

 

[pp9]

oh well luckily I’m in FL where there is no state income tax!🤩

Yeah, I miss those days...