Job outlook in coming years

[random23]

There's been a discussion lately about the vet market being too saturated with new grads. To paraphrase: Vet schools are increasing their class sizes and tuition costs to try and make up for budget cuts. Many practices aren't able to hire new associates because the economy has hit them too. It is unlikely that many new grads, especially those with high debt, will be able to find jobs and support themselves. Combine that with more and more new graduates every year, and it creates a scary picture for our generation.

What are everyone's thoughts on this? Are we being naive continuing on with vet school? If we're expecting to have >100k in debt, should we just get out now? I definitely thought about my financial future and looked at what all the costs would be before I went to school...but I was also assuming that I would certainly be able to find a job after school. Now I am not so sure....

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[Pigsfoot]

To be honest, I don't think that is going to happen...if anything, if you are open to the possibilities of the different options of where you can work, you are better off. There *may* be a glut in small animal practitioners-so it might be tougher to get a job in that field, but there are a lot of jobs in pharma, academia, lab animal, large animal and especially-the government (FDA and CDC). One may need to take a job they don't necessarily want for a while, but the scientific and medical expertise is still needed.

check this out-
http://www.fda.gov/ScienceResearch/...itiative/SpotlightonCPIProjects/ucm083242.htm

I've waited years to get here, there is no way I'm quitting vet school now.

 

[Nexx]

I assume you are referring to the discussions on VIN.

I think it's a bit early and maybe even a bit naive to think that the sky is falling in the veterinary economy and that new grads are never going to find a job. I think it may also be a bit of a bad idea to take what is said on VIN as absolute gospel as well. Not that their opinions on this matter may not be valid, but they are simply opinions -- they aren't economists or statisticians (well some of them are statistics gurus)

These are the same people who just 4 short years ago were saying that there was an extreme shortage of vets, that the industry was growing by millions of dollars per year with no slow down in sight. Enter the GFC of 2007 and by 2008-9 they changed their tune to the polar opposite.

They may be gifted at reading between the lines on scientific studies and data, but it doesn't mean that at the end of the day they don't also look at their wallet and end in doom and gloom. (A certain occasional&random poster on here comes to mind with this as well). Should the issue of 'excess' vet student population be looked at? Probably. That also means looking at real numbers for pet ownership and spending as well as food safety, production animals, etc -- a big study that will take many, many years I'm sure (which would be fine).

I just feel "they sky is falling" mentality is a bit short-sighted and seems to be a huge flaw within the general public (IMO) or frankly any side of the extreme. The truth is always somewhere in the middle 😛

As an example someone recently posted that there is something like 10.9 vets for every 100,000 people in the US in 1960. Flash forward to 40 years and that number is 20.9 (maybe 29.9?) for every 100,000. Got several people worked up about doubling the amount of vets for what isn't an equal population increase. They didn't count increase in food production, pet ownership, etc. They also didn't ask about how many of those vets who graduated from the 50's, 60's, and even 70's have retired in the past few years or will retire in the next 10 years. Is there even a larger percentage of 'boomer' vets? Vet school admission stats would seem to indicate otherwise but the question isn't asked (dumb question maybe!)

Anyhow my final point is that there is too many unknowns right now to claim pure doom and gloom. The debt issue has been discussed already in depth here so I personally won't get into that again. As for job availability? If there is little available, a little competition never hurt anybody -- and there are certainly some vets who SHOULD be out of a job, so bring on the competition 😀

 

[Chapelle]

There *may* be a glut in small animal practitioners-so it might be tougher to get a job in that field, but there are a lot of jobs in pharma, academia, lab animal, large animal and especially-the government (FDA and CDC).

(Warning: these are my opinions and impressions, don't take them too seriously and please correct me if I'm wrong)

This idea always sort of puzzles me...we hear this in vet school all the time and are encouraged all the time to get involved in research...but I don't think there are really lots of jobs in academia in general! Academic positions are super competitive and require lots of post-grad training (as do pharma positions usually). Lab animal I'd say there are a decent number of jobs only because few vets decide to go that path...but you're still far from guaranteed to find an opening in the area you want to live...you may have to move just to get a job. As for government jobs, there are some, but few seem to be designed for vets - it's like a job an epidemiologist could do just as easily. I talked to a food safety vet working for government when she came to our school. I asked her how her DVM helps her do her job and she didn't have much of an answer for me...she is working on her PhD now.

Meanwhile, seems like small animal and food animal graduates aren't having too much trouble finding jobs though the SA people may have to go work for Banfield.

 

[StealthDog]

Academic positions are super competitive and require lots of post-grad training (as do pharma positions usually).

While true, there are also specialties that relatively few diplomates and so few people who can be hired for academic positions- especially ophtho, nutrition, behavior, and anesthesia. My school has been searching for an ophthalmologist for years. Specialists can make better money for fewer hours (and no teaching responsibilities) in private practice.

 

[parietal]

This idea always sort of puzzles me...we hear this in vet school all the time and are encouraged all the time to get involved in research...but I don't think there are really lots of jobs in academia in general! Academic positions are super competitive and require lots of post-grad training (as do pharma positions usually). Lab animal I'd say there are a decent number of jobs only because few vets decide to go that path...but you're still far from guaranteed to find an opening in the area you want to live...you may have to move just to get a job. As for government jobs, there are some, but few seem to be designed for vets - it's like a job an epidemiologist could do just as easily. I talked to a food safety vet working for government when she came to our school. I asked her how her DVM helps her do her job and she didn't have much of an answer for me...she is working on her PhD now.

Can't speak for the FDA or CDC, but for USDA FSIS and APHIS, a DVM is a requisite degree for many positions. A DVM + MPH may help for some, but they wouldn't hire a plain MPH or even a PhD without a DVM.

 

[Chapelle]

While true, there are also specialties that relatively few diplomates and so few people who can be hired for academic positions- especially ophtho, nutrition, behavior, and anesthesia. My school has been searching for an ophthalmologist for years. Specialists can make better money for fewer hours (and no teaching responsibilities) in private practice.

I guess what I mean is, it seems that at any time there are only maybe 1 or 2 openings in the whole country for a boarded vet clinician/researcher in a particular area...so you have to be willing to move anywhere there is a job. This makes me sad b/c I want to do clinical research but I am pretty particular about where I'm willing to live (must have access to skiing, rock climbing, a city of reasonable size, and a large body of water, preferably the ocean...also must not live in a conservative area/the south).

 

[Ben and Me]

I know of several folks who were finishing up internships in private equine practice and were struggling to find employment last summer. I think that the equine industry was hit especially hard by the economy -- people were opting to "turn out for 6 months and wait and see" instead of pursuing expensive diagnostics, like MRI. The vets are still doing okay, as far as I could tell, but aren't necessarily looking to grow their practices.

 

[JosephKnechtDVM]

Karen Felsted has an excellent presentation on the trends in veterinary medicine on the DVM 360 website at http://veterinarybusiness.dvm360.co.../ArticleStandard/Article/detail/700509?ref=25

The KPMG MegaStudy of 1999 made it pretty clear from their interviews with non-clinical consumers of veterinary services that about 50% of jobs that the profession says vets could fill are filled by non-veterinarians or could be filled by veterinarians with additional degrees and training. After working in the food safety field in the military, I can attest that much of the food safety jobs not involving direct animal health are filled better by people with food science/technology degrees. Additionally in the biosciences technology field there are already alot of PhD competing for jobs. JAVMA in November covered the AABP convention where the Dean OF Iowa State warned the veterinary profession that they may be replaced by non veterinary care providers who have learned to serve producers better in large integrated operations and warned of the changes in practice acts that are expanding the definition of animal husbandry practices. A similar trend happened in the poultry and swine industries.

Take home message is that veterinary schools should be decreasing student body sizes. I am betting that this will be the take home of the as yet finished National Academies Study on manpower needs in veterinary medicine that was begun in 2007.

No need to reply telling me how trollish or uninformed or bitter I am. I am just looking at the hard, unveterinary biased facts that are out there.

 

[sumstorm]

I keep hearing this, but I think what my advisor says is true: there are always positions for those willing to do the work, make yourself marketable and you will have a job.

I am a second year. I have 3 job offers (contracts available now) for graduation, and 2 conditional job offers (based on externship performance.) I believe this is because I have business experience, can handle clients, and really enjoy working with people. I also have a potential client base in the area (because of my previous training business and associates.) Now, I know there is a risk that these clinics won't exist in 3 years, but I have reviewed the financials with the owners and all 3 are doing better than in previous years, with increases each year. They believe I can bring more money in, and they can provide a base for me. I have also taken extra courses in dentistry and ultrasound, which was a pleasant suprise when I was discussing future plans.

Other vets are doing things differently; I know a vet that is exceptional at ultrasound, and a boarded surgeon who both work from other vet's clinics and make a nice living doing so (over $150k.) I know a vet that is doing the same with dentistry (she just started, but has cleared over $60k in the past six months.) We may have to be more creative, or better at explaining our value, but I know a lot of folks around the country that spend fortunes on their animals and are looking for vets that will work with them...and I don't mean bend to their wills, but that will actually explain why titers aren't a great idea vs booster shots in a pup, or will let them be present for pre-meding, or that will show them around the practice.

I worry, but I have been in other fields where half the employment oppurtunities were wiped out (government positions only) in a day. I saw those same dedicated professionals find work; it may be different, but they still are successful.

 

[random23]

I assume you are referring to the discussions on VIN.

I think it's a bit early and maybe even a bit naive to think that the sky is falling in the veterinary economy and that new grads are never going to find a job. I think it may also be a bit of a bad idea to take what is said on VIN as absolute gospel as well. Not that their opinions on this matter may not be valid, but they are simply opinions -- they aren't economists or statisticians (well some of them are statistics gurus)

These are the same people who just 4 short years ago were saying that there was an extreme shortage of vets, that the industry was growing by millions of dollars per year with no slow down in sight. Enter the GFC of 2007 and by 2008-9 they changed their tune to the polar opposite.

They may be gifted at reading between the lines on scientific studies and data, but it doesn't mean that at the end of the day they don't also look at their wallet and end in doom and gloom. (A certain occasional&random poster on here comes to mind with this as well). Should the issue of 'excess' vet student population be looked at? Probably. That also means looking at real numbers for pet ownership and spending as well as food safety, production animals, etc -- a big study that will take many, many years I'm sure (which would be fine).

I just feel "they sky is falling" mentality is a bit short-sighted and seems to be a huge flaw within the general public (IMO) or frankly any side of the extreme. The truth is always somewhere in the middle 😛

As an example someone recently posted that there is something like 10.9 vets for every 100,000 people in the US in 1960. Flash forward to 40 years and that number is 20.9 (maybe 29.9?) for every 100,000. Got several people worked up about doubling the amount of vets for what isn't an equal population increase. They didn't count increase in food production, pet ownership, etc. They also didn't ask about how many of those vets who graduated from the 50's, 60's, and even 70's have retired in the past few years or will retire in the next 10 years. Is there even a larger percentage of 'boomer' vets? Vet school admission stats would seem to indicate otherwise but the question isn't asked (dumb question maybe!)

Anyhow my final point is that there is too many unknowns right now to claim pure doom and gloom. The debt issue has been discussed already in depth here so I personally won't get into that again. As for job availability? If there is little available, a little competition never hurt anybody -- and there are certainly some vets who SHOULD be out of a job, so bring on the competition 😀

Thanks for all the responses! Yep, it was the VIN discussion I was thinking about, but didn't know if I was allowed to mention that or not. I think you make a lot of good points Nexx. I probably am being naive believing everything I read on there....the whole discussion just instigates so much fear in me. I guess the best thing is just to keep doing my best and wait and see!

 

[HandD42]

I think you have to understand that all industries are being hit hard right now, and vet med has not been spared. Even the health care industry which is always an employment heavy hitter has slowed although not contracted. You cannot expect unlimited job growth when the economy is contracting.

Yes the outlook now is not as great as it was even 4 years ago but there still are jobs out there. Maybe you have to move, maybe the job isn't exactly the 'perfect' match, maybe 'gasp' you are practicing corporate veterinary medicine. But you know what? It's a job.

I spent 5 years as a lab animal technician and was so fortunate to have a stable (yet low paying job) but had hundreds (literally) of resumes come in each time we had a job opening. We had PhDs applying for a weekend tech position because the economy is so bad. So really its not just vet med and I don't think we need to panic and start closing vet schools.

I think as long as you are flexible and hard working you will be able to find a job and keep the lights on. I know personally I have changed my focus from equine to mixed because the equine vet market is very poor. But that is reality and hopefully I can find a practice that sees some horses or change to an equine only practice when the economy improves.

 

[Zusie]

I gave this a subject a lot of thought when I got accepted and had to finally face down what the degree would cost. I'm out-of-state but I had enough college savings for a few semesters so my ending debt will probably wind up being about average. Before you start a program like this you need to know there is something at the end of the tunnel to make it worthwhile. I'm not talking riches, or course (we animal lovers are suckers). But there had sure be a job!

While I was extremely bitter during the application (and rejection) process about the limited number of vet schools (and seats) in our country as well as the fact that my state didn't have its own, I have now realized what a blessing it is to have the AVMA looking out for us. Power over accredition is an amazing thing.

Recently I've been reading a lot about law schools due to an informative article the NYT published the other day (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html). This also linked me to some blogs to read where JD students and graduates are trying to expose the "scam" that is law schools. You laugh, but they are truly depressing to read. While it has always been fairly self evident to me that there were too many lawyers for the demand I don't think I fully recognized the extent of the problem. It's a fun profession to pick on... but they graduate 43,000 students a year in the US (as you know, vet schools graduate about 2,500). Unlike vet schools they also have a ratings system that gives you a pretty good idea of the caliber of student being let into a particular school. I know that different vet schools and facilities have their strengths but in vet schools there is definitely no such thing as a "Triple Tier Toilet"... all schools get top-notch students because the competition is high (at least based on test scores, grades, experience, and LOR of course).

But here is what they let happen. If boo-hoo you couldn't get into law school... here is a newer school they built that will accept you. And they'd build it in some region that was supposedly devoid of lawyers and needed to make its own supply. Now they are all spitting out graduates and have completely saturated the market. I think it was completely irresponsible of the bar association to allow that to happen. But law schools are fast money and it's fairly easy to throw together a new school... a library and professors and you're set. You don't have to build expensive laboratories.

I've just seen several family members and family of close friends play the whole law school game and lose. They went to highly ranked schools and aren't doing well at all. I refuse to believe that there is something wrong with all of them that they couldn't get anywhere in the profession. They are all doing something fairly unrelated now (although after some frantic scrounging they have seemed to find something relatively decent to do).

Those schools cook numbers and tell the kids that the prospects for employment at graduation are great. The truth is grim. There's another batch of screwed law students graduating soon.

I think a few times that the ABA has tried to prevent a school from being built and saying they won't accredit it if the school is built they've been threatened with anti-trust and anti-monopoly litigation. That's kind of sickening.

Meanwhile, the vet schools are graduating 2,500 a year. I like our odds a lot better than some of the other professional careers out there. And this is an economic downturn so this should be us at our gloomiest and I haven't found any blogs from DVMs forced to work at Home Depot or something.

I feel like the vet schools and the articles I've read are relatively honest - they emphasize over and over again about how much a realistic veterinary salary is and how much the degree will cost. Articles I've read talk about new graduates only having a few job offers and not getting to be as picky but I haven't heard anything out of distressed graduates? How are your friends and classmates doing?

If the worst it gets is that I can't live near my favorite skiing and beaches for a few years to get a job, I think we're doing okay. Maybe there's room for me in my home state that doesn't have a vet school.

I do think that Banfield needs to butt out of this international accreditation business, though. (http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/may10/100515a.asp) If you need vets in the US that speak Spanish why don't you assist US students by funding Spanish language labs? Although I guess I can see the benefits in snapping up DVMs that don't have to go $100k into student debt. Then you don't have to help us with ours by hiring us. (I told a couple of my non-US friends about this and they totally called me out. I won't repeat what they said. But whatever. One of them is only paying $500/semester at university for his advanced science degree...)

Banfield also funded the renovation of UNAM's teaching hospital, which was developed into a specialty hospital, and a language laboratory for the school's students to learn English as a second language.

 

[chris03333]

but there are a lot of jobs in pharma, academia, lab animal.

No there are not. These fields took a huge hit by the economy and state cuts because of the economy....There are tons of boarded specialist veterans in these fields looking for work now. You are very unlikely going to get a job in these fields straight out of vet school now (and from someone who went through it, it was damn hard to find a position with residency/fellowship under my belt.

And as for the academic places looking for *fill in your favorite specialist here* for *fill in years* there are these annoying things called "hiring freezes" (watch me puke here) which put a wrench in things.

 

[BlacKAT33]

No there are not. These fields took a huge hit by the economy and state cuts because of the economy....There are tons of boarded specialist veterans in these fields looking for work now. You are very unlikely going to get a job in these fields straight out of vet school now (and from someone who went through it, it was damn hard to find a position with residency/fellowship under my belt.

And as for the academic places looking for *fill in your favorite specialist here* for *fill in years* there are these annoying things called "hiring freezes" (watch me puke here) which put a wrench in things.

argg it drives me crazy when I hear stats that are completely opposite lol I just heard a lab animal lunch talk and the guy said that there are a ton of lab animal jobs. sighhh i guess it doesnt really matter until 2014 so i shouldn't bother looking into it for a while longer

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

No there are not. These fields took a huge hit by the economy and state cuts because of the economy....There are tons of boarded specialist veterans in these fields looking for work now.

I wholeheartedly agree. TAMU could not afford to take on more than one new anatomic pathology resident this coming year - the other is having to be paid for externally. And I don't believe we were able to offer any Lab Animal, Clin Path, or Comparative Med residencies this year. Some of our current, long-term pathologists have been reduced to 9 month salaries (aka you work 12, but get paid for 9), so you can bet hiring is not even on their radar. Hiring of both residents and specialists in path, lab animal, academia, etc - bad right now.

The lunches, honestly, are there to push the profession. Whatever they are pushing, they will feed you bulls**. I ate up the whole deal about the need for DVMs in research, which is blatantly not true now that I am looking around and seeing regular PhD's being hired over DVMs and DVM/PhDs left and right, because obviously, they can pay them less. If you can, talk to residents and specialists that are actually in the thick of it, and not being paid to tour and talk 🙁

 

[JosephKnechtDVM]

I guess my perspective based on the real economy instead of what veterinary schools think "society" needs from veterinary medicine is coming true. But then my "economic perspective" looks to the actual market as the test of what the outlook for employment of veterinarians. Nature and Science journals do not have advertisements for veterinarians except with the additional training of either Phd or residency. If academia wants or industry needs basic science to be done, they will hire a scientist with expertise in that area and not a veterinarian. The DVM degree is not fungible with a Phd in genetics, toxicology or whatever.

And on the practice side, the Brakke/NCVEI study on declining veterinary visits is out (see DVM360.com) and shows patient visits are down and the reasons for them including non-profit spay-neuter and vaccination clinics.The future is not rosy unless we have leaders who face the economic reality of the world. Veterinary medicine failed to believe that the horse would ever be replaced in the early 20th century and it is failing now to see that there are more veterinarians than the market can employ at a profitable rate of return for their human capital investment.

 

[JosephKnechtDVM]

The link to the Brakke report is at the NCVEI website. www.ncvei.org

 

[ItalianVet]

So I don't understand! 😕
I talked to many lab animal vets and they all told me that the job market is still pretty good for this particular field since there is not that many diplomates. Yes probably in academia the position are few but in the industry and related fields lab animal vets should be doing good.

What do you guy's know about this particular field.

Is there any lab animal vet on this forum that can give us his/her opinion?

I am considering a career in this field and I would like to know before committing 100%.

Thanks🙂

 

[chris03333]

So I don't understand! 😕
I talked to many lab animal vets and they all told me that the job market is still pretty good for this particular field since there is not that many diplomates. Yes probably in academia the position are few but in the industry and related fields lab animal vets should be doing good.

What do you guy's know about this particular field.

Is there any lab animal vet on this forum that can give us his/her opinion?

I am considering a career in this field and I would like to know before committing 100%.

Thanks🙂

I am a lab animal vet. Talk to someone which is actively applying for positions (any ACLAM resident in the end of their residency). If you are not actively applying, you may not understand the market at this time. This is because of the economy so can change over a short period.

 

[ItalianVet]

I am a lab animal vet. Talk to someone which is actively applying for positions (any ACLAM resident in the end of their residency). If you are not actively applying, you may not understand the market at this time. This is because of the economy so can change over a short period.

So you are saying that also the private sector and the biomedical and comparative med field are not doing so good?

Is it bad like in small animals or worse?

Please tell me more

I like lab animal med but I also need to find a job after a residency. I have family and student loans to take care of.
This is not good.🙁

 

[sbdgonzales]

Don't stress! No sphincter fatigue!

Of course it is harder to get a job now - unemployment is high, and some folks have priorities for their money that don't include expensive care - hospitals will be affected. But, there is a market for hard work, good personal skills, and enthusiasm. I expect to have a harder time finding a job then some classes previously, but I'm confident I can. Location, wages, exact job... that's all negotiable. At what point did our generation become so exceptional that we don't have to pay dues?

Here's the sad part in my mind. I see a lot of people in my class, and classes above me who have a poor work ethic, poor technical skills, and poor maturity. That's not good - in my mind, that's part of the reason that new grads have a harder time. Who would want to hire that? I've heard many comments from vets who have been in practice for years that they don't want to hire a new grad, because new grads don't want to work. Our generation has done an outstanding job of failing to impress the people who are (at least partly) responsible for the credibility and success of the profession, and that just might have some effects on our future! 🙂

Just my .02

 

[sumstorm]

But, there is a market for hard work, good personal skills, and enthusiasm. At what point did our generation become so exceptional that we don't have to pay dues?

I do agree that those with the skills will find the work (or even create new solutions to old problems.) I have a partial answer as to why some folks don't feel like they can 'pay dues' in terms of taking drasticly low income; student loans. I'm from a different generations, but its odd, I heard the same things about my parents generation from my grand parents generation, from my parents about my generation, and from my peers about the generation now graduating. I don't think that is a new complaint, just a changing of priorities. IE unlike my parent's generation, I don't believe in having loyalty to a company that doesn't have loyalty to me (my father has worked for the same company since he was 16) and unlike my grandparent's generation, I don't believe that if I want to work as a woman, I have to also be sure to take care of most of the household chores and child rearing. I think some students feel that the extreme debt with lower income is a way of paying dues, and I have mixed feelings about that.... because none of that is going to influence clients if you don't have the skills to interact with your clients.

Here's the sad part in my mind. I see a lot of people in my class, and classes above me who have a poor work ethic, poor technical skills, and poor maturity. That's not good - in my mind, that's part of the reason that new grads have a harder time. Who would want to hire that? I've heard many comments from vets who have been in practice for years that they don't want to hire a new grad, because new grads don't want to work. Our generation has done an outstanding job of failing to impress the people who are (at least partly) responsible for the credibility and success of the profession, and that just might have some effects on our future! 🙂

Again, very mixed. There are some hiring vets out there that want someone to work 80+ hours a week for $50k....and a lot of people can't do that, and will do a lot of other things to avoid it, especially if they are paying $2k a month in loans. I see just as many students who are enthusiastic, have a good grasp on the latest information, and can deal with clients and animals that are struggling (though I certainly have seen others that have never worked a real job and whose parents have always catered to them.) I'll be honest; I am willing to work hard, but I want to play hard too, and that means being off when I am scheduled off, and making enough income to support playing hard. I know of an owner who is having a conflict with their associate; the associate has, for the past four years, picked up the slack for a month long vacation of the owner, but when the associate takes vacation (2 weeks) relief vet comes in. The vacation coverage is not part of the associates contract; he was doing it to be nice, but this year, his wife lost her job, and funds are really tight, so he has been moonlighting at the emergency clinic. His boss expects him to step up and cover all her shifts on her vacation in a couple of months and is enraged when he said he couldn't do it unless he was compensated appropriatly (either additional time off for the extra coverage or extra income.) She wants to fire him over this (even though she says in every other way he is exceptional and brings a lot of funds into the clinic.) She is chalking this refusal up to 'poor attitude and a problem with that generation.' But even just a few minutes of thinking about it really suggests that his time has value, and he has turned that time into $ which he needs, and if he works more hours at the regular clinic, he can't pick up emergency shifts during that time (plus the unfairness in not hiring a relief vet when she is away.)

I guess I take a lot of what folks say with a grain of salt; I don't think that associate is wrong, and while I understand the owner's upset, I think it is absurd that she is willing to fire a high yield employee rather than examining the contract, being grateful he did it for so many years, and figuring out an arrangement that works for both of them. It's very easy to say 'he's lazy' or some other general term than to articulate and communicate the problem.

Either way, no matter whose perspective, I do believe those who bring the best interpersonal and creative skills to the table will always have a place.

Just my .02[/QUOTE]

 

[chris03333]

So you are saying that also the private sector and the biomedical and comparative med field are not doing so good?

Is it bad like in small animals or worse?

Please tell me more

I like lab animal med but I also need to find a job after a residency. I have family and student loans to take care of.
This is not good.🙁

I do not work in small animal (or any) private practice. Do some work and see what positions are open now if you want to know.

 

[sbdgonzales]

Sumstorm;

Good points, and well said.

I should clarify a bit. When I say "pay dues", I mean more than just work for skittles. I think that is a part of it (depending on how good your contract negotiation skills are!) - we will make less than a senior veterinarian. That does NOT mean we shouldn't be compensated appropriately - i.e., enough to pay loans and change up the ramen diet. But what I'm referring more to, is that less than half of my class is willing to work at a clinic where they would be expected to rotate on call or weekends. They want a 9-5, comfortable, well compensated job. Don't get me wrong, I do too - but I know I have to earn it, and it will be years down the road.

I agree with you about working hard and playing hard! I just get discouraged (and cynical) with people who want to do mediocre work for high pay, and then play hard.

There seems to be some pretty strong generational issues with us vs. boomers. Their idea (obsession) of work requires a lot of loyalty, blind obedience, and hierarchy that our age group doesn't take kindly to. Not the first time I've heard a story like yours! It's a bummer, and I sure don't have the answers!

 

[JosephKnechtDVM]

Sunstorm makes great comments with her example of the associate being threatened with firing at owner's whim basically. I know of one situation where the owner hired an experienced vet to replace a vet that was moving. The clinic itself was only barely covering the vet that was moving due to economy and weather factors from last winter. After the replacement vet moved over a thousand miles for the new position, the owner gave the new vet 2 months notice at the end of October 2010 after only being employed there since August 2010. The reason was due to finances but clearly the owner knowing she had difficulties last year should not have replaced her associate. Owners often run a veterinary practice more along what is best for them personally than what is best for the business as a whole.

Additionally, the terms being offered experienced vets are falling also and lapse into ludicrousness. Recently, I applied for emergency position in a brand new , very expensive hospital that was only offering 80K a year for a week on/week off schedule of 120hrs on duty per week solo and then no percentage of production paid until after being there a year as a bonus. Owners could not understand why last two associates only stayed past one year(to get the production bonus)!!

 

[sumstorm]

AAHA just released a study saying associate pay is up 12%.

 

[JosephKnechtDVM]

Thanks for that heads up. Here is a link to that page for others.
http://trends.aahanet.org/PracMgmtArticle.aspx?key=c25c1a1a-7728-4238-bd28-77745a0bed1c

The reasons they give are plausible for keeping a trained and producing associate in a practice. I would like to see the statistics broken out more according to state to see if the increase is also related to the unemployment and other economic figures relating to each individual state so at least you know where it is best to look in the long term.

 

[lailanni]

But what I'm referring more to, is that less than half of my class is willing to work at a clinic where they would be expected to rotate on call or weekends. They want a 9-5, comfortable, well compensated job. Don't get me wrong, I do too - but I know I have to earn it, and it will be years down the road.

Did you guys take a survey where the entire class participated? It'd be interesting to see that data. It's easy to check a box on a survey, but when you're actually looking at graduation and then paying loans I'm sure they'd take what they can get.

Anyone who has worked in a SA clinic knows that it's never 9-5. I'm thinking that perhaps they would prefer a 9 to 5 - but would be willing to rotate call.

At any rate, it's too much of a blanket statement to say that the next generation is filled with vets who don't want to work hard. We're a new generation that has different needs.

Just look at the changing demographic. We're 80% female at school. Females are going to have kids. It will be difficult, it not impossible, for them to keep work hours the same as the previous vet generation if they want time at home with their children.

It's also judgmental to say that people in your class or other classes have poor work ethics. Have you worked closely with all of them or are you just judging them at face value? They may do work differently than you. It's not better or worse, just different.

 

[lailanni]

http://www.salon.com/life/life_stor...wt/pinched/2011/01/24/closing_down_vet_clinic

Here's an article forwarded to me recently about a practice closing its doors and reflections on changing times/demographics.

 

[LivestockDoc]

http://www.salon.com/life/life_stor...wt/pinched/2011/01/24/closing_down_vet_clinic

Here's an article forwarded to me recently about a practice closing its doors and reflections on changing times/demographics.

Wow. Now I'm even more depressed about being a vet. Why didn't I apply to med school?