job security in medicine

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sunset823

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It seems lately that there has been a whole lot of doom and gloom in regards to certain medical specialties. I don't know about you guys, but a large part of the reason I decided to go to medical school is the supposed job security. But then I keep reading in the pathology, radiology, etc forums about how bad the job market is and how there are a lot of unemployed fellows, and I personally know somebody in neurology who has been unemployed for several years. I seriously never in my life expected to see an unemployed MD/DO, but it seems it's much more common than I realized.

So that being said, what are the areas in medicine with the highest job security? I don't care about money or lifestyle and am wide open about location, just looking at fields where I will have multiple job offers when I'm done with this grueling training.
 
Is the neurologist unemployed by choice? As I understood it neurology was still in high demand.
 
I'm thinking something that can't be "outsourced" to a different profession (Gas vs CRNA / FP vs DNP / rads vs doc in India). Maybe anything surgical?
 
There are lots of things in high demand. Be careful about who you listen to. There are a lot of people out there griping because they aren't finding money the way it used to be there, but on the whole I don't think there are many US trained doctors that are unemployed. The only reason that may be true is if you are in a location that is oversupplied with a certain specialty, but on the whole there is a shortage of physicians, especially in primary care fields. OB/GYN is also one that probably needs lots of people. There are lots of jobs out there, so don't get too worried yet.
 
It seems lately that there has been a whole lot of doom and gloom

There is always doom and gloom, in any profession, about everything. Rarely do I hear a physician say "Hey guys, good news, medicine today is better/easier/more lucrative than it was 50 years ago"...actually I have never heard that....from anyone.

I personally think that job security is still a prime reason to go into medicine. You are developing a highly marketable skill that can't be outsourced (for the most part) and people will always get sick.

From what I can gather, finding a position only becomes difficult (and only in certain specialties) when you are restricted in location (i.e. you want to practice in large cities). There is a lot of rural recruiting of specialties going on as smaller hospitals realize the financial benefit of offering specialty care to their community. Of course this is a rather broad statement and its based on what I have heard from people in cardiology, critical care, and ENT.

On a side-note: if you want absolute job security in your life-time go into geriatrics, endocrinology (specializing in obesity/DM type 2/etc) or something along those lines, haha.
 
This concept is rather strong in people with loud mouths. Those most focal are often those who complain and worry the most. So, while it is a legitamate concern, that concern may not be as strong as it might seem.

Fields at Risk. Everyone gets worked up about "people stealing our jobs." At least they wont work at rates of the people of the future ("They took our jobs!"). The thing is that no one can really replace a doctor. People site similar rates and outcomes when it comes to certain fields, and say that "nurses are just as good as doctors." But you have to look at what that means. Nurses are just as good as doctors when it comes to specific tasks. Doing ABIs? Equal. Filling out an H+P Form? Equal. Following an algorythm for an ER complaint? Equal. Sewing a patient closed after a heart transplant? Equal.

It is the physician who performs better when it comes to complex tasks like diagnosing a chief complaint ("Shortness of Breath" to "Idiopathic Pulmonary Fibrosis" vs "COPD exacerbation). Further, when the routine stuff that "nurses do as well as doctors" becomes not routine, complicated, or somehow different, it is the vast education and exposure of a physician that allows them to adapt.

When I was a paramedic I took a patient to a doctor's office visit (god I hated commercial EMS) to have a peg tube pulled. A PA working for the GI doc tugged on it. Didn't work. She left to get the doctor. The doctor came in, took one look, and yanked it out. Something as simple as a "stuck" peg tube was too much for the PA (too different from her usual), and required the doctor to come by. So while that doctor's office became more efficient, more patients were seen, more patients were cared for, but she could not have functioned without a doctor. The same story can be true of Anesthesia with difficult cases, APRNs in a primary care clinic, whatever the story may be.

A different mindset. Choose something that isnt routine nothingness. Pick things like internal medicine and subspecialities, surgery, and OB.

But if you must pick something where you do good in people's everyday life (like outpatient anything, peds, family) think about how you run it. It's not them stealing our jobs, it is using other health professionals to advance our own practice.

Do you LIKE discharging patients, scheduling appointments, and filling out paperwork? I dont. Its something I MUST do for my job. But what if there were another health professional (PA, NP) who was just as good as I was at filling out paperwork, scheduling appointments, and discharging patients? Would I let that person do it? Hell yeah I would. Who makes the decisions on diagnosis? Who makes the decisions on tests ordered or medications started? Yeah, me. I wish I was going to a residency where the busy work was covered by some one else. I chose a residency with many more perks than that, but how awesome would that be?

Bottom Line. You should not pick a specialty on who might steal it later. The thing is that you are always going to be a manager, a leader, and more sophisticated in whatever field you choose. Be a manager, a leader, and use other health professionals to advance your practice, your patient's care, and make the world a better place. Does that mean a pay cut to what doctors are used to? Probably. But who cares? Patients will benefit. Society will benefit.
 
People want to stay in specific geographic areas as well, usually the coasts. My friends in pharmacy school have the problem where there aren't many good jobs in New England, for example, but plenty in the midwest. I think that's mirrored to some extent in medicine--everyone wants to practice in NYC or Boston or California.
 
This concept is rather strong in people with loud mouths. Those most focal are often those who complain and worry the most. So, while it is a legitamate concern, that concern may not be as strong as it might seem.

Fields at Risk. Everyone gets worked up about "people stealing our jobs." At least they wont work at rates of the people of the future ("They took our jobs!"). The thing is that no one can really replace a doctor. People site similar rates and outcomes when it comes to certain fields, and say that "nurses are just as good as doctors." But you have to look at what that means. Nurses are just as good as doctors when it comes to specific tasks. Doing ABIs? Equal. Filling out an H+P Form? Equal. Following an algorythm for an ER complaint? Equal. Sewing a patient closed after a heart transplant? Equal.

It is the physician who performs better when it comes to complex tasks like diagnosing a chief complaint ("Shortness of Breath" to "Idiopathic Pulmonary Fibrosis" vs "COPD exacerbation). Further, when the routine stuff that "nurses do as well as doctors" becomes not routine, complicated, or somehow different, it is the vast education and exposure of a physician that allows them to adapt.

When I was a paramedic I took a patient to a doctor's office visit (god I hated commercial EMS) to have a peg tube pulled. A PA working for the GI doc tugged on it. Didn't work. She left to get the doctor. The doctor came in, took one look, and yanked it out. Something as simple as a "stuck" peg tube was too much for the PA (too different from her usual), and required the doctor to come by. So while that doctor's office became more efficient, more patients were seen, more patients were cared for, but she could not have functioned without a doctor. The same story can be true of Anesthesia with difficult cases, APRNs in a primary care clinic, whatever the story may be.

A different mindset. Choose something that isnt routine nothingness. Pick things like internal medicine and subspecialities, surgery, and OB.

But if you must pick something where you do good in people's everyday life (like outpatient anything, peds, family) think about how you run it. It's not them stealing our jobs, it is using other health professionals to advance our own practice.

Do you LIKE discharging patients, scheduling appointments, and filling out paperwork? I dont. Its something I MUST do for my job. But what if there were another health professional (PA, NP) who was just as good as I was at filling out paperwork, scheduling appointments, and discharging patients? Would I let that person do it? Hell yeah I would. Who makes the decisions on diagnosis? Who makes the decisions on tests ordered or medications started? Yeah, me. I wish I was going to a residency where the busy work was covered by some one else. I chose a residency with many more perks than that, but how awesome would that be?

Bottom Line. You should not pick a specialty on who might steal it later. The thing is that you are always going to be a manager, a leader, and more sophisticated in whatever field you choose. Be a manager, a leader, and use other health professionals to advance your practice, your patient's care, and make the world a better place. Does that mean a pay cut to what doctors are used to? Probably. But who cares? Patients will benefit. Society will benefit.

Hahaha. This sounds like one big coping mechanism to help you sleep at night. I think our jobs are definitely threatened. But so is everyone else, we are just showing up late to the party. I am leaning towards agreeing with what most others are saying on this thread. Don't pick a career that is realistically going to become more competitive later. Ie radiology outsourcing at Kaiser, derm residencies are being opened up to ANP's now, etc.

@Sunset823 I think that you are being wise you to think about the future and where things are going. A lot of people unemployed right now probably wish that they had used some more imagination and foresight into the future when developing their career. I don't think it is right to say that "no one can replace a doctor" because I believe that they absolutely can, and for many facets of healthcare, this is already happening. So yes, think and plan ahead. We should all be doing that, I think.
 
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So that being said, what are the areas in medicine with the highest job security? I don't care about money or lifestyle and am wide open about location, just looking at fields where I will have multiple job offers when I'm done with this grueling training.

Right now? Everything but Path has just about 100% employment and greater than a 100K salary. Paath is really the only field of medicine where a significant number of people are out of work. Everyone else is heavily recruited.

Eventually? Now you're betting on changes in both technology and healthcare policy 40 years into the future. What fields expand? What gets outsorced? What gets taken over by midlevels? What gets replaced entirely by technology? No one really knows. We guess. We could be wrong.

My strongests bets:
Rads gets 100% replaced by computers within 20 years. No humans needed to read the scans
Derm crashes back to Earth when FPs and midlevels take all the easy money procedures.
Psych and Neuro become growth industries as their capabilities rapidly expand
 
I don't think there's more security in the American workforce anywhere. So why worry after that? You've locked up a clear open shot. At living nicely within reason. And being able to count on that for as long as anyone would dare speculate.

Perhaps some of those most fearful are just less used to dealing with the fears most people face. That and we're an unusually high strung bunch.

You take a higher risk the more highly specialized you are. But even then if you stay flexible and perceptive you can adapt and land on your feet.

Personally. I think derm deserves a kick in the @ss. Nobody needs to be making so much for such cushy inconsenquentiality. Sucking up high-achieving medical students for no conceivable reason.

NP's will penetrate that market because it's obscene. And I'm in no way envious. I'm just calling like I see it--extremely and artificially over-inflated.
 
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Right now? Everything but Path has just about 100% employment and greater than a 100K salary. Paath is really the only field of medicine where a significant number of people are out of work. Everyone else is heavily recruited.

Eventually? Now you're betting on changes in both technology and healthcare policy 40 years into the future. What fields expand? What gets outsorced? What gets taken over by midlevels? What gets replaced entirely by technology? No one really knows. We guess. We could be wrong.

My strongests bets:
Rads gets 100% replaced by computers within 20 years. No humans needed to read the scans
Derm crashes back to Earth when FPs and midlevels take all the easy money procedures.
Psych and Neuro become growth industries as their capabilities rapidly expand
I would bet against every single one of your predictions.
 
Right now? Everything but Path has just about 100% employment and greater than a 100K salary. Paath is really the only field of medicine where a significant number of people are out of work. Everyone else is heavily recruited.

Eventually? Now you're betting on changes in both technology and healthcare policy 40 years into the future. What fields expand? What gets outsorced? What gets taken over by midlevels? What gets replaced entirely by technology? No one really knows. We guess. We could be wrong.

My strongests bets:
Rads gets 100% replaced by computers within 20 years. No humans needed to read the scans
Derm crashes back to Earth when FPs and midlevels take all the easy money procedures.
Psych and Neuro become growth industries as their capabilities rapidly expand

Just curious, why are so many pathologists out of work?
 
You take a higher risk the more highly specialized you are. But even then if you stay flexible and perceptive you can adapt and land on your feet.

Personally. I think derm deserves a kick in the @ss. Nobody needs to be making so much for such cushy inconsenquentiality. Sucking up high-achieving medical students for no conceivable reason.

NP's will penetrate that market because it's obscene. And I'm in no way envious. I'm just calling like I see it--extremely and artificially over-inflated.

I fully agree with these statements.
 
I think it's because Pathologist only works on laboratories and IMO I don't really consider it a medicine speciality. Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
I think it's because Pathologist only works on laboratories and IMO I don't really consider it a medicine speciality. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Definitely wrong.

Although pathologists can sit in a basement reading slides and getting calls from the floor for diagnosis, they are pretty much everywhere in the hospital. They are in blood banking labs, overseeing crossmatching and units that go up to the surgical floor, etc. They are doing necropsies, cytopathology, as well as so many things I can't even number.

The "I don't really consider it a medicine specialty". I was really confused by this statement. Which medical school do you go to, and what did they teach you exactly?
 
Right now? Everything but Path has just about 100% employment and greater than a 100K salary. Paath is really the only field of medicine where a significant number of people are out of work. Everyone else is heavily recruited.

Eventually? Now you're betting on changes in both technology and healthcare policy 40 years into the future. What fields expand? What gets outsorced? What gets taken over by midlevels? What gets replaced entirely by technology? No one really knows. We guess. We could be wrong.

My strongests bets:
Rads gets 100% replaced by computers within 20 years. No humans needed to read the scans
Derm crashes back to Earth when FPs and midlevels take all the easy money procedures.
Psych and Neuro become growth industries as their capabilities rapidly expand

Bet #1 is ridiculous. It's about as likely that all surgeons will be replaced by computers in the next 20 years.

Bet #2 might have a little truth to it but it wont change the crazy demand for derm.

Bet #3 is the only one I think has a shot at happening. However, since the big pharm companies recently bailed out of neuroscience research because it's not turning any profits there are going to be some barriers to advancement.
 
Just curious, why are so many pathologists out of work?

Lots of pathologists are not out of work. The internet does that to you, it makes everything seem worse than it is. In my experienced unemployed pathologists are very rare. There are many, however, who are in jobs that they may feel they "settled" for. There are also a lot of not so great training programs putting out not so great pathologists. People who have to hire them know this. Part of the problem in pathology is that pathology has gotten a lot more efficient in the past 10-20 years, because of specialization and technology and other reasons. So pathologists are doing more with their day. A lab used to have to have 5 pathologists to cover 10,000 specimens a year for example (made up numbers, don't take them as truth), but now their volume has grown to 25,000 and they still have 5 pathologists.

Don't pick a field because of rumors or conceptions about job security. Things in medicine cycle. If you pick a field you hate all the open jobs in the world won't make you like it. And if you pick a field you like even if the job market is tighter you will still be fine. Medicine is not like automotive engineering. The vast majority of unemployed physicians are unemployed either by choice or because of personal or professional problems. In certain fields it may take longer to find your job of choice or you may have to change location, but it will be there.
 
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I think it's because Pathologist only works on laboratories and IMO I don't really consider it a medicine speciality. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Be dumb
 
It seems lately that there has been a whole lot of doom and gloom in regards to certain medical specialties. I don't know about you guys, but a large part of the reason I decided to go to medical school is the supposed job security. But then I keep reading in the pathology, radiology, etc forums about how bad the job market is and how there are a lot of unemployed fellows, and I personally know somebody in neurology who has been unemployed for several years. I seriously never in my life expected to see an unemployed MD/DO, but it seems it's much more common than I realized.

So that being said, what are the areas in medicine with the highest job security? I don't care about money or lifestyle and am wide open about location, just looking at fields where I will have multiple job offers when I'm done with this grueling training.

I've heard the adage often: good money, doing what you love, and the location you want; you often only get 2 out of 3. I believe that unemployment is not in your future. If you're willing to live wherever, and make less than 90th percentile for what you do... you will most likely be employed. Or...you may live in a place you love, doing what you love and making a decent living at it. Who knows? It's difficult to predict.
 
There is some insecurity present in medicine, sure. If you are kicked out of your residency program, then you'll be hard-pressed to find another PD willing to vouch for you. But you would have to be pretty atrocious to get kicked out in the first place, and relative to many jobs out there, medicine is still one of the most secure jobs out there. You have to put in context, just Look at the finance sectors that are literally bleeding jobs
 
This is got to be the stupidest thread on SDN. You might make less than you imagined, work more hours than you hoped, but job security in general is not something you should be too worried about (short of gross incompetence or your becoming a subsubspecialist of a disease that affects 10 people in the country).
 
This is getting to be a really funny thread, I love it, and that link....talk about a positive feedback loop of crazy :laugh:

I've heard the path thing too, but don't know why, and can only assume it might have to do with path assistants being incorporated into practices/departments to run super smooth.

The OP's neuro friend is being too picky if they can't find a job. A good physician could find work in multiple postapocalyptic scenarios [zombie, asteroid, nuclear winter, etc]. Being ingenious kind of comes with the territory.
 
This is got to be the stupidest thread on SDN. You might make less than you imagined, work more hours than you hoped, but job security in general is not something you should be too worried about (short of gross incompetence or your becoming a subsubspecialist of a disease that affects 10 people in the country).

I think this is about right. Physicians may not be the only people practicing in a given area anymore, but they are the best. If it comes to, say, FP competing with NPs the FP may have to accept lower reimbursement rates because they are doing the "same thing" for billing purposes as the NP and there is more abundant supply, or they may get stuck with all the tough cases while the NPs do the easier bread and butter moneymakers, but the physicians will be employed. I think the same goes for every field.

So basically midlevel creep, outsourcing, etc might mean lower salaries but not low job security.
 
Tell that neurologist to look in Colorado Springs...we have more neurosurgeons than we do neurologists. The neurologists that we do have (~5) are all nearing the end of their careers and stopped taking call. If we order a test to be done on Friday, the results can be read by Monday...maybe...
 
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