John Ritter's family suing

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southerndoc said:
Chest X-rays: When physicians were given chest x-rays of dissections and not told of this, they characterized 93% as abnormal.
And of the completely normal chest x-rays, the physicians read 32% of them as abnormal. What this tells me is that the physicians already know that something is supposed to be wrong in these x-rays, so already they're working with a higher pre-test probability than a normal working physician would have.

However, only 73% were recorded as suspicious for aortic dissection. Only 38% of dissection chest x-rays had a widened mediastinum by one study(1)
And 16% of the completely normal chest x-rays were read as "suspicious for dissection." This study doesn't exactly inspire confidence in our abiliity to identify those at risk from dissection based on an x-ray. Reasonable for a screening exam, but nowhere near able to rule-in nor rule-out.

Clinical signs: Pulse and blood pressure differentials between the arms has been characterized as up to 100% sensitive for aortic dissection and 92% specific.
I find it hard to believe that BP/pulse differential are 100% sensitive. You're claiming that EVERY SINGLE case of thoracic aortic dissection will have a pulse/bp differential on presentation? Most sources I could find say "up to 50%". I agree that it's very specific. Not much else causes a sustained bp differential between upper extremities.

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Skip Intro said:
Nice, well-played with the intent to obfuscate, snipped from multiple threads
-Skip

All quotes taken from this thread.
 
FoughtFyr said:
I hope it is not "late" when your patients come in or else I'm sure there will be an M3 somewhere, on an online forum, waiting to second guess your decision making.

Skip Intro said:
M4, and John Ritter presented to the ER at around 6:00 PM.

I think FoughtFyr's point was that if you are not operating at the high standard you appear to have set for everyone else, someone with less experience will be there to criticize you.
 
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Sessamoid said:
I find it hard to believe that BP/pulse differential are 100% sensitive. You're claiming that EVERY SINGLE case of thoracic aortic dissection will have a pulse/bp differential on presentation? Most sources I could find say "up to 50%". I agree that it's very specific. Not much else causes a sustained bp differential between upper extremities.

In this particular study, yes. However, one study does not mean that every single patient will have that finding. Only in this particular study did all patients have that finding (when tested).

Remember, at a 95% confidence interval, there is still a 5% probability that this is chance alone.
 
southerndoc said:
Remember, at a 95% confidence interval, there is still a 5% probability that this is chance alone.

Well, no, a "95% confidence interval" is given with a range and is often used when describing things like relative risk. Within that range, statistically 95% of the samples will fall. It's generally considered to be two-standard deviations (specifically z=1.96 for the pedants, like margaritaboy) from the mean, and in relation to the sample size. With a larger sample size, you will have a smaller confidence interval - that's a good thing. Anything experimentally found to be outside the confidence interval is generally considered an "extreme outlier".

What you are talking about is the P value, which relates to the alpha power of a study. At a P=0.05, this means essentially that there is a 1/20 chance (or 5%) that the findings of the study may have reached the wrong conclusion, meaning that the null hypothesis may have been true... but, then we'd also have to calculate beta. Anyway, the smaller the P, generally the more clinically significant the study is deemed to be, although many statisticians disagree with this (i.e., it's either significant or it's not and that's where it ends... you can't be slightly dead, for example).

-Skip
 
Skip Intro said:
Well, no, a "95% confidence interval" is given with a range and is often used when describing things like relative risk. Within that range, statistically 95% of the samples will fall. It's generally considered to be two-standard deviations (specifically z=1.96 for the pedants, like margaritaboy) from the mean, and in relation to the sample size. With a larger sample size, you will have a smaller confidence interval - that's a good thing. Anything experimentally found to be outside the confidence interval is generally considered an "extreme outlier".

What you are talking about is the P value, which relates to the alpha power of a study. At a P=0.05, this means essentially that there is a 1/20 chance (or 5%) that the findings of the study may have reached the wrong conclusion, meaning that the null hypothesis may have been true... but, then we'd also have to calculate beta. Anyway, the smaller the P, generally the more clinically significant the study is deemed to be, although many statisticians disagree with this (i.e., it's either significant or it's not and that's where it ends... you can't be slightly dead, for example).

-Skip
Sorry, you are right. I should have stated p value and not CI. Thanks for catching that.
 
Sessamoid said:
I find it hard to believe that BP/pulse differential are 100% sensitive. You're claiming that EVERY SINGLE case of thoracic aortic dissection will have a pulse/bp differential on presentation? Most sources I could find say "up to 50%". I agree that it's very specific. Not much else causes a sustained bp differential between upper extremities.

I think Southern doc misquoted the paper he referenced. In that paper they found 38% of dissections and 1% of nondissections had BP or pulse differentials. Not 100%. That paper also has a huge bias in that they selected the 250 patients out of >42000 chest or back pain patients seen over 10 years who after initial ED eval including H&P, labs, EKG, CXR were deemed suspicious for dissection and then compared the 128 who ultimately had a dissection to the 122 who didn't. Since many of the clinical correlates they were measuring were the same ones that were probably being used to decide to enroll the patients in the study it is not surprising that they see a high correlation. The better question is how many of the >42000 that they said had no dissection actually had one and what were their clinical characteristics. Thus even this fatally flawed study shows a sensitivity of only 38% when it comes to BP differential and dissection
 
The 38% figure comes from table 2 and Southern Doc's 100% figure comes from table 3 which is actually listing PPV. Even this is a bit bogus since they had 2 patients with isolated pulse differentials and dissections and none without. Thus yielding a PPV of 100%. However they had one patient with a pulse differential and no dissection who was dumped into another group because he had typical "aortic pain". If he had been included in the pulse differential group the PPV would have suddenly been 67%. In any event the sensitivity and NPV of this test still blows.

Southern Doc, might be time to brush up on biostats before the next inservice exam as I recall there was a fair bit of it there. 😉
 
One of the nice things about the EM board is that things don't usually get so testy. I won't even go in the Lounge for that reason. So why did things degenerate here? SkipIntro has made some assertions that just rankle those of us who are practicing. Those being:
"The ER docs [messed] up." and the implication that he would never have made that error.
I have said before that you must be very careful about passing judgement on another clinician. The absolute worst I will say about someone else's decision is that I might not have done it that way but I have my own areas of weakness too. I think that the discussion spurred by this has been valuable but I would say that after some time in the pit the impulse to make judgements against the man on the spot will go away.
 
I think that the discussion spurred by this has been valuable but I would say that after some time in the pit the impulse to make judgements against the man on the spot will go away.[/QUOTE]


Amen..Brother...I'm almost 5 years out now post fellowship and I realize that this IS NOT an exact science despite what research, laywers and even the public seem to want to believe and assert.
 
I can attest to the fact that mediastinal widening is an extremely non-specific and insensitive finding on chest x-ray. At least 30-40% of portable AP chest x-rays done in the emergency room have a wide appearing superior mediatinum due to various factors (rotation, AP positioning, lordotic, poor inspiration, etc). The "perfect" film is a near impossiblity on most ER patients. The vast majority of the time, unless the history is specifically looking for mediastinal widening, we do not call it. The number of chest CTs done would increase dramatically if we did call it. Occasionally, the mediastinum is obviously truly widened. Sometimes, if there is good technique, we will call more subtle widening.
 
Whisker Barrel Cortex said:
I can attest to the fact that mediastinal widening is an extremely non-specific and insensitive finding on chest x-ray. At least 30-40% of portable AP chest x-rays done in the emergency room have a wide appearing superior mediatinum due to various factors (rotation, AP positioning, lordotic, poor inspiration, etc). The "perfect" film is a near impossiblity on most ER patients. The vast majority of the time, unless the history is specifically looking for mediastinal widening, we do not call it. The number of chest CTs done would increase dramatically if we did call it. Occasionally, the mediastinum is obviously truly widened. Sometimes, if there is good technique, we will call more subtle widening.

Fair enough, but the point is that we haven't been specifically talking about (or, at least I'm not and haven't been) a windened mediastinum as an isolated finding.

Not to be overly simplistic and hopefully we can mostly agree here, there are basically four very serious (i.e., requiring immediate treatment to prevent a very bad outcome along with serious sequalae and morbidity if not mortality) differentials in chest pain: myocardial infarction, acute myocardial ischemia, pulmonary embolism, and dissecting aortic aneurysm. My point is that the clinician, for the most part, still has to make the diagnosis clinically with a high index of suspicion, and if his/her investigations to that point are not adding-up he/she must consider each of these possibilites in the differential - that's good medicine.

So, I'd agree that a widened mediastinum by itself may not be a good diagnostic indicator of aortic dissection. But, in light of other possible clinical findings, a widened mediastinum - even a questionable finding - becomes more likely clinically relevant, it's a routine test that can be done fairly quickly and is available in every emergency department (unlike TEE or spiral CT, which may not be available and may add further delays waiting for results), and not doing a CXR in this instance clearly is a failure of standard of care... and why do the test if you're not going to consider the results, whatever they may be? At least one person has posted some data (which has generated further debate) that agrees with what I'm saying, but I think people are over-scrutinizing it and perhaps missing the forest for the trees.

And, to make sure everyone understands and to thoroughly beat the dead horse, I have no idea how or when they arrived at the conclusion that Ritter had a dissecting aortic aneurysm, but obviously they did get the diagnosis right - whether or not it was "too late" to do anything about it - and got him to the OR.

So, I want to know this: am I missing something here? Or, are people just now trying to split hairs about something that is done routinely, namely a portable CXR (which granted is usually an AP shot), but should still be considered significant within the other constellation of signs and symptoms associated with an acute aortic dissection? I'll admit that we don't have the complete picture in Ritter's case because we don't have his chart in front of us. But, how many of you think you would have missed this? How many dissections have you missed? How many have you seen? Would you not consider it highly in your differential if you saw a chest pain with a widened mediastinum? Is four hours unreasonable amount of time to come to this conclusion? Not to be accused of "Monday morning quarterbacking", but how many later-diagnosed aortic dissections were then thought to have had a widened mediastinum upon retrospective review of the chest x-ray? Has anyone done a blinded study on this? (I'm asking specifically Whisker Barrel Cortex because you may have more immediate access to a study such as this as a radiology resident.)

Outside of the discussion on the finer-points of diagnostic radiology, I seriously want to know. I'll be the first to admit that I still have a lot to learn.

-Skip
 
Skip Intro said:
And, to make sure everyone understands and to thoroughly beat the dead horse, I have no idea how or when they arrived at the conclusion that Ritter had a dissecting aortic aneurysm, but obviously they did get the diagnosis right - whether or not it was "too late" to do anything about it - and got him to the OR.

So, I want to know this: am I missing something here? Or, are people just now trying to split hairs about something that is done routinely, namely a portable CXR (which granted is usually an AP shot), but should still be considered significant within the other constellation of signs and symptoms associated with an acute aortic dissection?

-Skip

What you are missing here is that you, erroneously, started to chastise Ritter's physicians based on the assumption that a CXR was done, and an obvious widened midiastinum missed. However, it was, in fact, another "famous" case where this sign was missed. Then you have launched into a discussion of the need for chest films in CP. No one here is arguing the utility of a CXR in the evaluation of CP.

You have just approached this with the assumption (and subsequent "holier than thou" tone) that Ritter's docs either a. didn't get a chest film, or b. missed an "obvious" sign of dissection. Most of us around here find either of these a fairly bold assumption for a medical student to make.

- H
 
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FoughtFyr said:
What you are missing here is that you, erroneously, started to chastise Ritter's physicians based on the assumption that a CXR was done, and an obvious widened midiastinum missed. However, it was, in fact, another "famous" case where this sign was missed. Then you have launched into a discussion of the need for chest films in CP. No one here is arguing the utility of a CXR in the evaluation of CP.

You have just approached this with the assumption (and subsequent "holier than thou" tone) that Ritter's docs either a. didn't get a chest film, or b. missed an "obvious" sign of dissection. Most of us around here find either of these a fairly bold assumption for a medical student to make.

- H

You have inferred a lot, quite a lot, that just simply isn't there. Perhaps you should re-read my posts... much more carefully.

-Skip

P.S. My being a medical student should have nothing to do with anything. Talk to the subject matter, not the person. Otherwise, you're engaging in ad hominem, which is a dubious debate tactic at best... not that we're even having a debate, really.
 
Complicating the chest x-ray usefulness further is the fact that there is no objective standard by which one can judge a mediastinum. Look for one in the textbooks. It isn't there. A study tried to find a number or ratio to define a "widened mediastinum" and failed. The most accurate judge of what constitutes a widened mediastinum was if the reading physician thought it was wide when he/she looked at it. That's it. Subjective impression alone. Obviously there is going to be some interoperator variance here, and it won't be an insignificant number.
 
Skip Intro said:
You have inferred a lot, quite a lot, that just simply isn't there. Perhaps you should re-read my posts... much more carefully.
Oh please. Re-read the quotes margaritaboy pulled from your initial posts. I was pretty damned offended by a lot of what you said, and I know I'm not alone. Just the statement, "the ER doctor f***ed up" is enough to piss any of us off, especially given it's coming from a medical student who knows next to nothing about the case and only what he's read in the textbook about the topic at hand. You were dismissive, insolent, and arrogant. You proclaimed that diagnosing this illness is obviously not a diagnostic dilemma with virtually no experience not gained from a textbook.

I was inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt, but now I'm beginning to think you're just trolling.
 
Here's a part you conveniently "skipped" in my previous post...

Skip Intro said:
P.S. My being a medical student should have nothing to do with anything. Talk to the subject matter, not the person. Otherwise, you're engaging in ad hominem, which is a dubious debate tactic at best... not that we're even having a debate, really.

Oh, and since margaritaboy can "snip" out of context from mulitple posts, here's some more snips from this thread...

Skip Intro said:
Begging everyone's pardon here...

😕

Skip Intro said:
Don't get me wrong, Sessamoind. I pretty much totally agree with what you're saying here.

😕

Skip Intro said:
... hey, I'm not trying to step on your toes.

😕

Skip Intro said:
You're right. Sorry, about that one.

😕

Skip Intro said:
Yeah, I totally agree. It's wrong to "blame" anyone without the facts.

😕

Skip Intro said:
...I didn't mean to offend anyone...

😕

Skip Intro said:
Outside of the discussion on the finer-points of diagnostic radiology, I seriously want to know. I'll be the first to admit that I still have a lot to learn.

😕

Putting aside your apparently very fragile ego here that compels you to continue to try to put a medical student in his place, I'm not sure that you have much of a case, especially if you're going to use margaritaboy's argument as a benchmark.

I'll say it again, so it's clear: (1) I'm sorry if my original post pissed anyone off, it was only intended as a "devil's advocate" position - the thread to that point had talked about TEEs (etc.) and had overlooked a bigger clinical question; (2) most of my apparently "arrogant" attitude was in response to subsequent flames, mainly from FoughtFyr and Sessamoid, who appear - at least to me - to be a little insecure that a medical student has enough balls and self-confidence to attempt to point out the obvbious, namely that basic diagnostic measures had not been discussed to that point, and (3) I'm sorry that the few of you are missing what has been an otherwise interesting discussion on this thread with your continued need to blast me, even on things I had already apologized for. Why waste your effort? After all, I'm just a lowly medical student who doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground yet, right? 🙄

Now, I'm officially done with this thread. My apologies for asking a series of legitimate questions. And, Sessamoid, if you find that medical students are afraid to speak up, avoid you while cowering in your presence, or generally seem to be very quiet while with you in the wards, perhaps now you'll no longer need to wonder why. At the very least, maybe this will give you a little window and insight about how they talk about you behind your back.

-Skip
 
Skip Intro said:
Now, I'm officially done with this thread. My apologies for asking a series of legitimate questions. And, Sessamoid, if you find that medical students are afraid to speak up, avoid you while cowering in your presence, or generally seem to be very quiet while with you in the wards, perhaps now you'll no longer need to wonder why. At the very least, maybe this will give you a little window and insight about how they talk about you behind your back.

-Skip
As Quinn can attest I'm pretty well liked among the med students, since he was one in my teaching hospital. I don't take statements like, "Well, doctor", the "ER doctor f***ed up" and "self-proclaimed practicing physician" interspersed with lecturing on basic medicine on what doesn't present a diagnostic dilemma from my partners, nor my colleagues, and I don't take them from medical students or heads of departments either. You're not being treated any differently in that regards. Do you talk to your attendings and residents this way on rounds? I.e. "Now, doctor, a more important question is what would you think if a patient came in with severe chest pain and a widened mediastinum?" "I don't think picking up a dissection aortic aneurysm has been impressed upon me as a huge diagnostic dilemma if you're paying attention. Or, do you disagree doctor?" "Do you think DeBakey had a TEE back in 1954 when he was cracking chests and fixing these for the first time? " And do you roll your eyes at your attendings after those comments as you did the last one?

If so, then I suggest modifying your behavior. If not, then why do you consider it appropriate in this context? Do you realize how out-of-line that sounded at all?
 
Sessamoid said:
As Quinn can attest I'm pretty well liked among the med students
Lemme qualify that. Well-liked except for the time I had Q drawn and quartered, then keelhauled. Aside from that, we're best buds. 🙂
 
Sessamoid- don't sweat it. This poster acts like this on a regular basis. He is currently arguing with and insulting people in several other threads. One is the Hurricane Ivan thread. Its turned into an insane debate over whether or not people should go to med school in the Carib (they won't be safe). Another thread argues about SGU grads scoring higher than DO's on USMLE exams.

Why did this budding anesthesiologist have to find his way into our nice little EM forum?

Thanks for your input to the thread. Its been quite informative.
 
beanbean said:
Sessamoid- don't sweat it. This poster acts like this on a regular basis. He is currently arguing with and insulting people in several other threads. One is the Hurricane Ivan thread. Its turned into an insane debate over whether or not people should go to med school in the Carib (they won't be safe). Another thread argues about SGU grads scoring higher than DO's on USMLE exams.
Ah, so it's a chronic condition. Oh, well.
 
EM folks never miss a case of trollitis, do we?? I guess we do know how to diagnose something after all.
 
beanbean said:
EM folks never miss a case of trollitis, do we?? I guess we do know how to diagnose something after all.
I was thinking it more along the lines of "cerebral trolliosis".
 
This is all very interesting, but most of the arguments sound like an academic physics professor jumping off of the cliff and figuring out the exact time and p-value of when he would hit the ground.

Maybe I've been out of academic medicine too long, but some of these posts where pretty anoying.
 
dewd... r they sueing the er doc?? i thought it said they are sueing the cardio surgeon?? if so, y is everyone here in an uproar... 😕
 
In these kinds of suits, everyone who so much as looked at the patients gets sued.

It's called a "shotgun" lawsuit. No good, and I use that word loosely, trial lawyer would not miss the opportunity to max out the insurance caps of all the docs and the hospital in order to extort them into a large settlement.

Die lawers, die.
 
ERMudPhud said:
Southern Doc, might be time to brush up on biostats before the next inservice exam as I recall there was a fair bit of it there. 😉

I have to admit that my biostats knowledge has faded away over the years.

However, the study I quoted has valuable insight into clinical assessment of aortic dissection. It has its share of problems, just like any other study.
 
Hey, does anybody here still remember a very short-lived show Ritter starred in called Hooperman? I really liked that show, but the network killed it. Not enough sex or violence I guess.
 
Yeah, that was a good show. Ritter played a cop who was trying to have some semblance of a normal life, in his hours off work. It was subtle, and funny, and on ABC around that time (cf. Sports Night), subtle and funny got a show nowhere. It's just the kind of show that would do really well on the WB right about now. :\
 
My late mother-in-law complained of severe pain in the upper back. She said it appeared suddenly and felt like someone had just slammed her in the back with a brick. The paramedics said it might be a heart attack. The doctors in the ED ended up ruling that out. They were going to release her, but after speaking with her cardiologist, who said it sounded like an aortic dissection, they ran another test. (Forgive me for not knowing exactly what test it was - that was more than 1 1/2 years ago and I am just a lowly premed, anyway.) The test apparently confirmed the cardiologist's diagnosis (I believe the rupture was in the arch), so they arranged for emergency surgery. The surgery was delayed a few hours because of a young accident victim, also with a dissected aorta, who was in even more critical condition than my mother-in-law. In any case, my mother-in-law survived the surgery. However, because of other major health problems (an enlarged heart among them), the doctors couldn't manage to wean her off the ventilator. They extubated her at least twice, only to have to re-intubate. I know she had a stroke on the table (and I'm guessing she had at least one other a few days after the surgery), but we wouldn't be able to know the extent of the damage from that until she was weaned off of the ventilator and meds. About 1 1/2 weeks after the surgery, she passed away. Other than the recognition in her eyes the first time I saw her after surgery, I'm not certain that she ever truly regained consciousness. After that first time, her eyes were seemingly "unseeing" (leading me to think that she'd had another, larger stroke.) Our family opted to have an autopsy done because of that looming question, "Why?" Though a very large part of the autopsy report was incomprehensible to me (it being an official report and, therefore, in medicalese), I was able to determine that in addition to the known medical problems my mother-in-law had been dealing with over the years, she had emphysema. While this did not surprise us (she'd been a heavy smoker for all but the last 18 years of her life), it had been undiagnosed. It is my understanding (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that the emphysema, in addition to the fluid in the lungs due to her enlarged heart, prevented her from being weaned from the ventilator. It is also my understanding that, even had the doctors been aware of her emphysema, it wouldn't have changed the treatment (the surgery or the ICU care) in any way. I concluded from the autopsy report that her death was not preventable, that even had her surgery taken place when it was originally scheduled, the outcome would have been the same. The surgery simply delayed it by 11 days.

I know Ritter died on the table. Rather than assuming the doctors erred, I've gone the other direction and am assuming that (1) the aneurysm was larger, or in a worse place, or in some way more critical than my mother-in-law's and (2) there were possibly other health issues which contributed to his death. I will admit that until I studied my mother-in-law's autopsy report, suing the doctors/hospital was a possibility (not likely, but the possibility was there.) It was for that reason we chose to have an autopsy done.

Question: Was an autopsy done on Ritter? Or is the suit based just on his hospital medical file? Or does any of this make a difference, anyway?

Sigh....soooooooo much to learn!
 
grouptherapy said:
my attending saw the xray and thought it was visible. they effed up


Absolutely the family has a right to sue. If guy comes in with chest pain, a widened media on cxr and hypertension (which a guy ritter's age probably had) or looking marfanoid in a young guy, Aortic Dissection has to be at least 2 on your differential. If the EKG is non-specific, it becomes number 1.
 
Whisker Barrel Cortex said:
I can attest to the fact that mediastinal widening is an extremely non-specific and insensitive finding on chest x-ray. At least 30-40% of portable AP chest x-rays done in the emergency room have a wide appearing superior mediatinum due to various factors (rotation, AP positioning, lordotic, poor inspiration, etc). The "perfect" film is a near impossiblity on most ER patients. The vast majority of the time, unless the history is specifically looking for mediastinal widening, we do not call it. The number of chest CTs done would increase dramatically if we did call it. Occasionally, the mediastinum is obviously truly widened. Sometimes, if there is good technique, we will call more subtle widening.

Yeah but if a guy is having chest pain or complained of having chest pain before having neurologic symptoms (dissection often tracts into the common carotids) and HTN with a widened media, how could you not put all that together to at least wanna rule out dissection?
 
Here we go again . . .
 
It's amazing how many medical student experts there are. They must make them so much smarter than when I went through medical school
 
governaitor said:
Absolutely the family has a right to sue. If guy comes in with chest pain, a widened media on cxr and hypertension (which a guy ritter's age probably had) or looking marfanoid in a young guy, Aortic Dissection has to be at least 2 on your differential. If the EKG is non-specific, it becomes number 1.

Read the whole thread. The widened media was on another case, not John Ritter's. I hope that you are more careful when you assess your patients or we might be discussing a case of yours next.

- H
 
governaitor said:
Absolutely the family has a right to sue. If guy comes in with chest pain, a widened media on cxr and hypertension (which a guy ritter's age probably had) or looking marfanoid in a young guy, Aortic Dissection has to be at least 2 on your differential. If the EKG is non-specific, it becomes number 1.


This is all the more unforutnate as it is a highly treatable condition, with something like a 70% survival rate.
 
with something like a 70% survival rate.

You must be living in a different medical universe from the rest of us.
 
tsj said:
This is all the more unforutnate as it is a highly treatable condition, with something like a 70% survival rate.
Ditto FF from above.

Or maybe I'm the dolt and this is sarcasm. "highly treatable"?
 
FoughtFyr said:
Read the whole thread. The widened media was on another case, not John Ritter's. I hope that you are more careful when you assess your patients or we might be discussing a case of yours next.

- H

I'll summarize the thread for everyone:
All of the practicing EPs agree that thoracic aortic dissection is a tough pick up in the clinical setting and are reluctant to criticize another doc without having all of the data about that particular case. All of the med students are sure that this is an easy pickup and that they would never miss it.
 
docB said:
I'll summarize the thread for everyone:
All of the practicing EPs agree that thoracic aortic dissection is a tough pick up in the clinical setting and are reluctant to criticize another doc without having all of the data about that particular case. All of the med students are sure that this is an easy pickup and that they would never miss it.

In fairness it appears Governaitor is a pathology resident. Of course, everything looks easy from a pathology standpoint. You know how it goes...

Internist - Knows everything and does nothing...
Surgeon - Knows nothing and does everything...
Psychiatrist - Knows nothing and does nothing...
Pathologist - Knows everything and does everything, just one day too late!

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

- H
 
Seaglass said:
You must be living in a different medical universe from the rest of us.


He is actually correct. The plication surgery salvages 65-75% of patients.
 
So everybody knows that individuals with Marfan's are prone to aortic dissection, right? BUT, this is not the MCC of acute cardiac death...why? Because the docs involved are looking for it (I know that Ritter did not have Marfan's). I have read from NEJM that anyone with chest pain and ST depression in certain leads (it would have to be looked up in my case, as the article was read a while ago) should have aortic dissection ruled out first. I have no opinion on the course of Rx in the Ritter case, I just want to hear what the ED guys have to say concerning this.
 
tsj said:
He is actually correct. The plication surgery salvages 65-75% of patients.

I don't know. I was always taught the post rupture mortality was much highter.

This study says 40% mortality:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15192567

As does this one:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15192566

I'm detecting a trend:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12113278

Ahh, but a study here in the good ol' U.S. of A. says 47%:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11923615

The Scots ride in the low forties:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14743143

Another U.S. study says 45.7%:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11107080

Last, but not least, for all you pathologists and medical students who insist you would have "done it better", here is a study that suggests the median time from symptom onset to death was 16 hours, with no one dying in less than 2 hours. Given that he (John Ritter) survived until surgery, which began 4 hours after his arrival, I would assert this research suggests that delay may not have added significanly to his death. See: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15071442

- H
 
Idiopathic said:
I thought the debate was over whether they could have saved him pre-rupture, no?

No, I believe he came in rupturing.

But, I just realized I f'd up. The literature above was for rAAAs. Ritter had a thorasic. Oops. Please don't sue me.

But here is a study that suggests ~ 50% mortality on ruptured TAAA. See: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12891114

With more information, e.g. location and seversity of the rupture, I don't think anyone here can comment at all on the outcomes, or the effects of (possible) delayed treatment. That will unfortunately be left to 12 people not smart enough to get out of jury duty.

- H
 
From Emedicine (whch is the best I could get):

The 10-year survival rate is between 40% and 69% for both surgically and medically treated dissections.

So maybe you're right, and maybe I'm right.
 
Idiopathic said:
So everybody knows that individuals with Marfan's are prone to aortic dissection, right? BUT, this is not the MCC of acute cardiac death...why? Because the docs involved are looking for it (I know that Ritter did not have Marfan's). I have read from NEJM that anyone with chest pain and ST depression in certain leads (it would have to be looked up in my case, as the article was read a while ago) should have aortic dissection ruled out first. I have no opinion on the course of Rx in the Ritter case, I just want to hear what the ED guys have to say concerning this.

Can anyone comment on this?
 
Idiopathic said:
So everybody knows that individuals with Marfan's are prone to aortic dissection, right? BUT, this is not the MCC of acute cardiac death...why? Because the docs involved are looking for it (I know that Ritter did not have Marfan's). I have read from NEJM that anyone with chest pain and ST depression in certain leads (it would have to be looked up in my case, as the article was read a while ago) should have aortic dissection ruled out first. I have no opinion on the course of Rx in the Ritter case, I just want to hear what the ED guys have to say concerning this.
Do you have the citation? Any EKG changes associated with a thoracic dissection are generally going to be non-specific. The most common would probaby by LVH by voltage possibly with associated strain pattern, which complicates interpretation even more. This finding is so common as to be useless as a screening tool for aortic dissection.
 
Sure

"Nonischemic ST depression
The most important differential diagnosis in patients with chest pain and ST depression is aortic dissection. As many as 50% of patients with dissection of the thoracic aorta (some with abnormal levels of creatine kinase) will have electrocardiographic abnormalities, mainly ST-segment depression."

This is from America Heart Journal, Volume 141, Number 4, page 513. It cites a source that is not listed at the end, since I have a copy.
 
So Idiopathic, how do you suggest "evaluating" these patients for Dissection given that a huge number of people present to the ED with chest pain and ST depression. Should we CTA them all?
 
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