Johns Hopkins Postbac - Really Worth the $$$$?

[sp2-hybridized]

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does anyone have any thoughts (good, bad, ugly - anything) on the postbac program at johns hopkins? is it really worth the money??

below are more specific questions for anyone who's been through the program or has some inside info or heard stuff from a neighbor, etcetc:

- was it difficult to develop strong relationships with professors / get solid letters of recommendations from profs who actually KNOW you? or was it a struggle to stand out among the sea of undergrad premeds at the school?

- how supportive are the postbac staff and director? do they actively help postbacs become as successful applicants as possible? or are they hands-off unless you come to them?

- does the staff help postbacs secure good volunteer/lab/shadowing positions?

- did you find the fact that classes were stretched out over a year + 2 summers (vs the more common year + 1 summer) to be helpful? or did you come out of it thinking that it was just a way for the school to get more $$$ from unsuspecting students?

- considering postbacs are thrown into 300+ lectures, were the classes difficult? were the students ultra-competitive?

- is it very difficult/near impossible to get A's in your science classes (particularly physics)? are grades curved to restrict A's to only a tiny% of the class?

- if you're a hopkins postbac 'alum': looking back, would you say, pretty definitively, that the program was worth the $30,000+ you spent (especially considering you could've done the classes elsewhere, for much much much less) and that you'd make the same decision again?

sorry for the barrage of questions. i'm just desperate for any insight (anything!) on the hopkins program.

in case this helps, here's my background:
career changer, several years out of college (worked in real estate), 3.7gpa in humanities from a top 10 undergrad institution, not planning on linking, i'm in bad need of very strong, standout volunteer/clinical experience, and i'm looking for a program that will make me as competitive an applicant as possible.

i've been having such a hard time trying to understand this postbac subculture, and, again, any info/advice/thoughts would be awesome.

 

[gusmp06]

I don't know much about other school programs, but having been a Hopkins undergrad and met a few other post-baccs in the program through the classes, all I could say is that I don't recommend the post-bac program at JHU.

(Of course, other school post-bacs maybe the same so in that case it won't be different, but I can't answer that)

re: class grades, it depends on what school you are from, but JHU pre-med courses are generally based on a huge bell curve in which the above average would be B- and below would be C+ (to get an A-, it's often said you need to score higher than average plus standard deviation). The problem with some of those courses, esp. o-chem is that some of the prof's there have been studying o-chem for 30+ years and they think students can speak o-chem like they do. I guess it's very competitive, but Hopkins is one of those schools where some people actually get killed by the curve, not get helped by it.

I guess biology should be a bit easier because you don't take biochem/ cell-bio (try to avoid this class if you can, even though material is interesting) like people did for years. It's not that bad and many people do earn A's. General Chemistry exam questions seem to be similar year to year, but teachers are not that nice gradewise (One prof told me how his class exam grades doesn't look like smooth bell curve and he tries to mold it like that). Organic Chemistry first semester is okay, but second semester can be really bad depending which one of two professor you are assigned to. Physics depends on which professor you get and whether you take physical or biological oriented course(I heard some rumors the last year I was in JHU that mid-term averages were less than 30 and the professor asked the class "What's wrong with you guys" and someone apparently stood up and said "You". Don't know if this is true or not though)

But on the other hand, if you happen to succeed in a relatively unfriendly environment like this one, you do stand a good chance surviving elsewhere. (That's what JHU tends to advertise- if you make it here, you can make it anywhere)

 

[Kateroni18]

I would have to disagree with the above poster. As an alumn I definitely think the program is worth it. I don't have time to address all your questions specifically, but you can look up some of my old posts about the program.

Just a couple quick notes...

First, I credit the Hopkins program with my success in the med school application process. My undergrad institution thought with my gpa it would be difficult or me to get into a DO school or a non-US school after finishing my prereqs. After completing the program I got offered a spot at Pitt with a full scholarship. I figure the 30K saved me 130K and is making my dream of becoming a doctor come true. I truly believe this would not have been the case if I had taken classes on my own somewhere or did a different post-bacc program less compatible with me.

Second, Dave Trabilsy is an amazing advisor and very involved with the students.

Third, I would have hated Hopkins as an undergrad and I think it's a competitive and not so fun place to be. However, within the post-bac class it is a supportive atmosphere so you don't notice the undergrad atmosphere so much.

Lastly, I was scheduled to take a second summer at Hopkins but decided not to and that was ok with them. I took my last class and lab after I already got in to med school at a state school and it was quite a bit cheaper than Hopkins.

If you have questions after reading my other posts feel free to PM me....

 

[sp2-hybridized]

gusmp06 - thanks for the info. very interesting post. really nice to get an hopkins undergrad's perspective. your comments on the grading at hopkins sort of confirmed my suspicions...

kateroni - awesome to finally hear from a jhu postbac! i've heard only from one other in a PM, but it is surprising that there is so little info on sdn about the hopkins program from actual postbac 'alums' or current students. it seems like you've got a stronghold on the hopkins postbac posts (very few chime in to agree, etc). either fewer hopkins postbacs are on sdn than are postbacs from other programs, or perhaps most other hopkins postbacs have something to hide...i'm hoping it's the former...

the two responses i've gotten from hopkins folks, though, have been overwhelmingly positive (perhaps too positive... dundundun! 🙂), but i wonder whether you guys just have really strong science backgrounds and you're able to outshine the undergrads pretty easily, thereby giving you a really great experience. i'm coming in with a humanities background and need to do all the pre-reqs, so i have my reservations, especially given what seems like an extremely harsh curve. kateroni - did you come in with some of the prereqs done? i feel like that could definitely affect how well a student does at the program and how solid a bcpm gpa a student ends up with...

actually, kateroni, with such a high gpa from hopkins, you must have been pretty stellar! curious though - do you know of hopkins postbacs who were actually struggling through classes? and were they able to pull themselves out of the hole or were they - to put it bluntly - screwed?

i've also heard about programs "recommending" that certain postbacs not apply to medschool right after finishing their program (for the sake of admissions #s) and instead wait it out, perhaps to do some gpa enhancement program, etc. have you heard about this? given the academic environment at hopkins, i wonder whether this is common with postbacs at the program.

i guess what i'd like to know is whether other postbacs from your year saw the same success as you did after applying to med schools. do you know if most of them were able to gain admission to their school of choice?

i do agree with gusmp06's line that, if you can succeed at the hopkins postbac program, then you'll have a good chance of succeeding elsewhere. it's just a matter of determining whether the hopkins environment is one in which a person who isn't coming in with a strong science/techie background can actually excel. and right now, that's the main issue i'm dealing with...

 

[Pemulis]

sp2,

Based on your questions and concerns, you might be interested in taking a look at the programs at Goucher and at Bryn Mawr. These were designed with people like you in mind, and they are both very well respected by med schools. They both boast extrememly low attrition rates (i.e. over 90% of people who start sucessfully complete), and even better acceptance rates (close to 100% of those who successfully complete get at least one acceptance at Bryn Mawr; at Goucher it's been 100% for six years running). Small class sizes, no curves, great advising, etc.

 

[gusmp06]

sp2-hybridized, I think the pre-med office at Hopkins would tell you not to apply in the current cycle if you're thinking about it. I was talking with the advisor recently and she said some programs (e.g. Georgetown) encourages you to apply before you get your grades, but she thinks applying should take places once you find out what grades you earned.

About acceptance rates, I don't really know about the post-bac rates itself, but I can tell you JHU boasts a reapplicant rate of about 73% and first-time applying rate of about 85% for every applicants that uses the Hopkins committee system. (Critics of the Hopkins committee often cite that before they get this 85-90% rate, many people quit pre-med, apparently discouraged/ intimidated by the whole pre-med thing)

Anyway, good luck if you do decide on coming to Hopkins.

Kateroni18>> Thanks for your inside look about the program. It's nice to hear that SOME PLACE in Hopkins is supportive towards its students! I'm really glad you succeeded up to where you are now. Good luck going even higher! 👍

 

[Kateroni18]

i've heard only from one other in a PM, but it is surprising that there is so little info on sdn about the hopkins program from actual postbac 'alums' or current students

I don't think people in the program really know about sdn...notice that the two you've heard from are the tech oriented people 🙂 I can honestly tell you that no one I have ever met in the program has ever expressed that they wished they had done a different program or taken classes elsewhere. That doesn't mean there's no complaints at all...most common are that sometimes post-bac meetings run long and undergrads are competitive.

i'm coming in with a humanities background and need to do all the pre-reqs, so i have my reservations, especially given what seems like an extremely harsh curve. kateroni - did you come in with some of the prereqs done?

I came in to the program with a semester of biology and a semester of chem done...so I did the biochem/cell bio track. I've sure having my mind already science oriented helped me, but I don't think in general your background will predit how you do. I know a few humanities majors who ended up with similar gpas to me. I also know a few who did not do so well. If I recall correctly, 6 people ended up retaking O-chem 2 (who had D's and C's in the class) during a particularly difficult semester and got their grades replaced with A's and B's. It seemed like a lot of people end up retaking classes if they get a C or lower, but for most people this doesn't happen and if it does it doesn't end up delaying when they complete the post-bacc program. Sometimes people are advised to just take the grade though. I can't really say how well everyone fared because most of us didn't talk about our grades. The point is some people do really well and some don't and that's okay. If you got in to the Hopkins program then you must have something working for you already...the gpa will not prevent you from getting in. There's also some courses that act as gpa plumpers if necessary...like an advanced biochem course at night that really isn't very advanced. The program is really not a fan of taking classes just for the sake of enhancing your gpa.

i've also heard about programs "recommending" that certain postbacs not apply to medschool right after finishing their program (for the sake of admissions #s) and instead wait it out, perhaps to do some gpa enhancement program, etc. have you heard about this?

The goal of the program is to help everyone reach their goals. If the goal isn't attainable right after finishing the program you'll be recommended not to apply. As far as I know, the only time someone has been recommended not to apply was in the class before mine when a guy with no research experience wanted to do MD/PhD. He took a year to do research and got into 7 programs. Also, I would imagine if you're goal is Harvard or WashU and your gpa and MCAT score is not competitive you'd be advised to wait. There's also a couple people who decided on their own to take a year off to travel abroad or get an MPH. Also, keep in mind the hopkins post-bac program has a separate advising office from the undergrad premed office. We have access to their services if we want, but we have our own advisor.

i guess what i'd like to know is whether other postbacs from your year saw the same success as you did after applying to med schools. do you know if most of them were able to gain admission to their school of choice?

Yes they did! We had a reunion a few months ago and at that point all but two people had gotten into med schools and all of them were very happy with where....several getting into their "dream" schools. The last two have since gotten off waitlists. I heard that three of us got full scholarships as well. Dave works with you to come up with a good list of where to apply and he's a pretty good judge as to where you're competitive and where fits your personality so it's hard not to fare well in the application process. Also, two people decided the wanted to do nursing school instead...one's going to Hopkins, the other to Columbia. There's a list of schools on the post-bacc page where people got in but it's missing a few...


Hopes this helps make your decision easier. Everyone's experience at Hopkins is going to be different. Mine was excellent. So was that of my friends. I feel bad for gusmp and the other undergrads who don't get to have as positive of an undergrad experience as they should. In the end I'm really glad I chose to come to Hopkins for post-bac and you guys really do have some excellent faculty, facilities, and research and volunteer opportunities to be thankful for.

 

[rainwoman]

I haven't been on this board for a while, but thought i'd pitch in some $.02 to represent the JHU post-bac alum's. I went through the program a couple of years ago. Here's some thoughts...

POSITIVE:
*Johns Hopkins has a great reputation, hands down. Whether YOU care about reputation or not doesn't matter in the game of med. school admissions. Med schools care about reputation, and when they see the name Johns Hopkins they pay attention.
*Grades at Hopkins matter. If you get a B in a Hopkins class, it's like an A in another school. This is true, and is recognized by adcom's. If you do well at Hopkins (which you CAN do) and get A's in your pre-med classes, even better.
*Dave (director) is a great man with a long-standing presence in medical school admissions. He has strong opinions about how students should apply to med school, but he is usually right. And, if you are independent enough, you can still do things your way within reason.
*Baltimore is a city full of clinical opportunities with great hospitals (not just Hopkins Hospital, but also Univ. or Maryland, GBMC, Union Memorial). If you are proactive you can get a great clinical experience, and the program encourages this.
*Many of the pre-conceptions about hopkins undergrads are true. they can be far too serious and competitive. HOWEVER, not all of them are! I met great people while I was there, plugged into the Outdoor's Club and did a lot of my hobbies, and had a great time. Keep an open mind!
*Baltimore really grows on you. Really, it does. Many people in my year came in with a very closed mind towards Baltimore. They left unhappy about the city, but they never gave it a chance. It has lots of personality, CHarles Village is great and is getting better b/c they are changing it. If you go, try and live in a rowhouse in Charles Village. It is much better to be 'local' and to just walk everywhere.
*A couple of the professors there absolutely rock! SPecifically, Dr. Klein for O-Chem, he's the best teacher I've ever encountered.

NEGATIVE:
*Professors have so many students it is unreal. A pre-med class might have 400 students in it. Most of them are very willing to help, though. You just have to be proactive about meeting up with them during office hours. Once they meet you a couple of times, they'll remember you and you'll find them helpful. To get good rec. letters, you really need to pick two professors from the get-go that you will build a relationship with. They get so many requests for letters so they really need to know who you are.
*COST. Most of the official post-bac programs in the country are pretty similar in cost, but it would certainly be cheaper to just do all the classes at your state school. But, don't forget the reputation thing. That's why people go to Hopkins post-bac. How much are you willing to pay/borrow to get a good shot at getting into med school?
*I had a hard time with the other post-bacs in the program. The program seems to attract very ambitious, talented people. This is great, but most of the people in my class spent virtually all their time studying and were uptight much of the time. This is fine, but hugely unnecessary. It is very doable to have a 'normal' schedule, and to enjoy your hobbies while in the program. That said, they were great people, but I did spend most of my time with people not in the program.
*Some of the teaching is VERY stale (particularly Physics and Gen. Chem courses) with professors who teach way over our heads. I stopped going to many of these classes (as do many) and just prepared for the exams on my own.
*Hot and humid in the summers.

HOpe some of this is helpful. Feel free to PM me with more questions!

Rainwoman

 

[gusmp06]

POSITIVE:
*Grades at Hopkins matter. If you get a B in a Hopkins class, it's like an A in another school. This is true, and is recognized by adcom's. If you do well at Hopkins (which you CAN do) and get A's in your pre-med classes, even better.

I wish that was true, which probably is in many cases, but JHU pre-med program doesn't see it like that. The pre-med office directors still base their projection on national GPA averages so if you only have 3.40 GPA (which should be like 3.6-3.7 in other grade inflation school), they're llike "You don't have much of a chance to be competitive".

*A couple of the professors there absolutely rock! SPecifically, Dr. Klein for O-Chem, he's the best teacher I've ever encountered.

Dr. Klein is one of my favorite professors all-time too. Even mentioned him in my autobiography. But the drawback to his class is that the grading curve is so high (average midterm grade is 91, people not taking his class would have average of 65 and it goes down to about 35 throughout semester) He says that if you score 90% on the final exam, you're guaranteed A-, but he makes the final exam really hard. I guess he calculated that course evaluations are done before the final so no one will bad rep him. Actually, I know someone a few years ago got 102/102/100 in midterms, but final exam surprised her a bit, and nearly wound up getting A-, but managed to clinch the A. 😛

But many of your positive comments are very true and I absolutely agree 🙂 good posting!

 

[hokiemon]

At JHU or any post-back for that matter, how do you go about building a relationship w/ a professor for getting a rec w/o coming across like thats your main goal. Let's be real, most of this profs know what you're trying to do. Do any take offense to it or are they all comfortable w/ the understanding that these students need to do this as a part of there learning experience?

I don't know, I'd be worried id come across like I'm trying too hard to start a convo or to know a prof and it would come across as pretended. IN the past the way i buid relationships w/ profs is by volunteering my time as a research assistant for them or to help them in any way i can w/ there ongoing research. Is that the best way to go? Any other suggestions on how to build a relationship w/ profs so you can get a nice LOR?

Thanks.

 

[gusmp06]

In general, you need max/ min of two science letters. I think in the late 90s, it was pretty hard to come by with a letter, but it's gotten somewhat easier. Professors have been somewhat reminded that students paying full-time tuition does have right to ask recommendation. Nevertheless, it boils down to who you ask the letters for.

Also, the other thing many might not have noticed yet is when you go ask for a recommendation, you don't write an one sentence e-mail or go to the prof's office empty-handed. You should usually have a packet ready that include cover letter, MCAT grades, transcripts, autobiography/ essay on why you want to go to medical school, possibly your exams or papers from the professor. That way the prof's know you did your homework and would try his/ her best. Writing a notice in your cover letter that you are willing to be interviewed one on one for the letter helps too, though I never got interviewed.

When I first got to JHU, recommendation was the thing that worried me a lot. In fact for the next three years. Thinking about it in a broad context, it's one of the lowest worries you would have in applying to a school.

I think professors would try to avoid getting general, vague letters, but you need to watch out of those because if the JHU pre-med committee sees it, they would contact you and say you have to get another letter.