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Johns Hopkins- @Sinai vs @Bayview

Discussion in 'Internal Medicine and IM Subspecialties' started by digimon, Nov 15, 2002.

  1. digimon

    digimon Member
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    I had a quick question re: these two programs. Anyone have any general experience with either/both? I am particularly interested in the Intern year experience. Thanks in advance....fyi, i have read the reviews on scutwork...
    peace.
     
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  3. doepug

    doepug Senior Member
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    Sinai and Bayview are extraordinarily different than JHH.

    I did a month of medicine at Sinai (and most of my friends went to Bayview)...

    Sinai is very relaxed. There's a night float system, which means that unless you're in the unit, call is q4 until 9 pm. There's also a fabulous didactic series over the lunch hour for housestaff and students. Sinai housestaff are not really a part of Hopkins. They do one rotation (oncology) at JHH, but are otherwise a part of a separate institution linked only by the name of the program.

    Bayview is a little busier, but still not overwhelming. Most of the cases there are bread and butter - pretty standard stuff. Bayview is larger than Sinai, and there are at least 8 med students/month working with the interns. I don't think the didactics at Bayview are as well structured though. Bayview is known for Geriatrics, Asthma/Allergy, Rheumatology and burns/wound care - so you'd probably see a lot of these patients. Bayview residents have greater interaction with JHH and the university community in general.

    Cheers,

    doepug
    MS III, Johns Hopkins
     
  4. VicAmor7

    VicAmor7 Junior Member
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    Sinai- all Hopkins Faculty, more one on one interaction, Endocrine, Cardio, GI'

    Baltezar will replace Dubin as the Cardiology text, he is based out of Sinai

    Sinai time at JHH 1st year 25%
    2nd 33%
    3rd 45%

    These if u chose all ur electives at JHH, then that would be the percentages
     
  5. isobelle1

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    If you complete your intern year at the Johns Hopkins/Sinai Hospital Program, what does your diploma say? Sinai Hospital or Johns Hopkins or both?
     
  6. uacharya

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    That's an interesting question. I would be curious to know the answer! Same question applies for the Hopkins Bayview Program.
     
  7. alpo

    alpo Junior Member
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    Can only speak for Bayview, but there is an incredible difference between Bayview and Sinai.

    "Johns Hopkins Bayview Medical Center"
    "Johns Hopkins Medicine"

    Who actually looks at your residency certificate anyway besides your mother and your patients?
     
  8. Danbo1957

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    Hospital hiring committees. A JHH (IM-Osler) residency certificate is the most respected on earth.
     
  9. Instatewaiter

    Instatewaiter But... there's a troponin
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    BUMP

    Any new thoughts on JHU/Sinai? How does the program rate?

    I'm gonna be honest. I knew nothing about the program and found it when I was searching for the other Hopkins programs in ERAS. Since it was so cheap to add another one on, I added it. So, does it compare to bayview or JHH or is it only similar in name?

    I couldnt find a whole lot on their website. Thanks
     
    #8 Instatewaiter, Sep 29, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2009
  10. ResidentMD

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    Yeah, what I have heard is JHU (Osler) >> JHU Bayview >>> JHU Sinai

    But some of the comments above were good news even to me, though I havent applied there. You would have to check out the board pass rates, but this is what I have generally heard, is that the Bayview program is quite above the Sinai one (at least from academic reputation point of view)
     
  11. JSI124

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    For Sinai, it's in name only, but you can do all electives at JHU (if there are enough slots)
     
  12. theunderdog

    theunderdog Medical Student (Slave)
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    One of my past attendings attended Hopkins for medical school. Osler is the best, obviously. He said Sinai and Bayview cannot compare with Osler. However, Bayview is > Sinai, he said.

    When I did some research on the programs, Bayview has an amazing fellowship match list! Check it out. Sinai, on the other hand, batches their fellowship matches together, and so, you can't see how many exactly went where. Bayview has an impressive fellowship match.
     
  13. UTSW2010

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    I am interested in the prelim program at Sinai. Does anyone know whether you can take electives like Radiology or Optho at Johns Hopkins hospital during your Sinai intern year? Thanks.
     
  14. staup

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    I am a Bayview resident. The Osler program is definitely the best without a doubt as it arguably the best program in the country....

    Bayview is a great place however. It was a community hospital 20 years ago, but Hopkins purchased it and converted into an academic program. That being said, it is a smaller hospital. I might consider it a top 25% porgram.

    The match list is great and completely accurate. In the last 3-4 years there have only been about 2 people I know of that didn't match into fellowship, both in GI. But that has happened at the Osler program as well. Look at the website, it's a great match list.

    All the faculty are hopkins and most go back and forth. Supposedly, 40% of the Hopkins department of medicine is at Bayview. The teaching and research available is great. Bayview has more research dollars than most university programs with two NIH institute buildings on campus. It's a very up and coming place.

    Sinai is good too but has less contact with Hopkins. Many electives at JHU are available though. The residents there are mainly IMGs.

    Hope that helps and is not too biased.
     
  15. IDforMe

    IDforMe Not recovered...
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    This is great! Can anyone provide some more information on the differences, teaching, schedules, etc.?
     
  16. REGGAE

    REGGAE Jah Rastafari
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    Using fellowship as an outcome measure, Bayview is better by far.
     
  17. IDforMe

    IDforMe Not recovered...
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    Thanks for the reply reggae. It looks like most of Bayview's residents end up at Hopkins for fellowship. I couldn't find a good list for the Osler program, though. Would you mind posting a link if you have one? It seems backwards, considering the reputation of the Osler program...
     
  18. staup

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    Intern year: 4 unit months, 4 ward month, 2 weeks nightfloat, 1 month elective, 1 month vacation, 1 month of evidence based medicine lectures, 1 month month of lectures detailing pscho-social aspects of medicine, 2 weeks miscellaneous


    Then the required rotations decrease during 2nd and 3rd year, more so if you are not a primary care resident.


    Teaching is very good.

    Your certificate/diploma says JHU School of Medicine.

    NOT the Prestige of the Osler program, smaller, but a very good program where you have the resources to land an amazing fellowship.

    Even though the hospital is smaller (700 beds, although only 200-300 are medicine beds), you do a TON of unit time and are really prepared to be good physician.

    One other negative is that people don't know what it is and will call it "just an affiliate" often when 40% of the JHU department of medicine is on the Bayview campus. If that sort of thing bothers you, take that into consideration.
     
  19. IDforMe

    IDforMe Not recovered...
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    Thanks so much for staup, that is very helpful!
     
  20. mama

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    Do interns at Bayview have a lot of autonomy like the ones at JHU do?
     
  21. mama

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    Did anyone else get an invite from JHU Bayview? I received an invite post MSPE release.
     
  22. Instatewaiter

    Instatewaiter But... there's a troponin
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    I think this must have changed in the last few years because I rarely see Sinai residents at JHH.

    The attitude of the 2 programs are very different. Osler is based on the idea of "autonomy" forcing you to mature faster as a physician. This has pros and cons and at times can seem like you are on your own. Nonetheless, there are very few residents at JHH who aren't incredibly competent. Bayview has less "autonomy" per se and there is a little more hand-holding. Generally Bayview takes call as a team while as an intern at Osler you take call alone. This is not to say that Bayview is not an excellent program but in terms of autonomy the two programs are very different.

    I would be very surprised if Bayview's reputation didn't take off in the next few years.
     
  23. MedicineForLife 777

    MedicineForLife 777 Senior Member
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    Anyone knows how Johns Hopkins Bayview and Sinai rank? Would they be considered a first tier program?
     
  24. Instatewaiter

    Instatewaiter But... there's a troponin
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    Plainly, Bayview is a good program. Sinai is not. Neither are first tier.

    I would put first tier as Hopkins (JHH), MGH, UCSF, Brigham and Womens, Columbia, Duke, Penn and a few others. Bayview is a good program but not within the top tier.
     
  25. Crazy Diamond

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    The OP is not asking about JHH vs Bayview that's a done deal the IM program at bayview is a solid program it is an extension of the Hopkins campus in eastern Baltimore some of the services that JHU provide are mainly based there it has the NIA's main campus endocrine and GI are very big as I hear

    Sinai is also a very good program it has historical connections with Hopkins the
    AICD was developed there and fitted for the first time at Hopkins main campus

    I think it is silly and somewhat childish to classify programs as top tier and non top tier
    does graduation from a top tier med school or top tier residency indicate a absolute intelligence or clinical competency ?
    The answer is NO.
    these places are undoubtedly home of many intelligent minds and many innovative human beings however classifying them in a list is such silly idea

    This list not different from the 10 point pain scale where the interval between 2 and 3 is not necessarily equal to the interval between 3 and 4 , however until the ACGME or the ACP comes up with a way to evaluate the resident or the student on individual level we will still be looking at students or residents who have come from these places as heavenly messengers or god-like ghosts even if they were jerks or have bad attitude
     
  26. Instatewaiter

    Instatewaiter But... there's a troponin
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    Um wow. Did you have a bad experience or something?
     
  27. Crazy Diamond

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    no I didn't I just get sick reading some of the responses
     
  28. Instatewaiter

    Instatewaiter But... there's a troponin
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    Are you a sinai resident?
     
  29. Crazy Diamond

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    No I am not.
     
  30. docscience

    docscience AZCOM (Junior Member)
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    Really? Don't you think it is a balance between the candidates goals, family situation, reliability, needs, etc. vs. just a residency certificate?

    Candidate A vs. Candidate B for an IM hospitalist position at a Bay Area Hospital:
    Candidate A has a JHH residency certificate but wants to do basic research, not have much time to teach, see his hospital patients, and get the heck out of there to run his biotech business.
    Candidate B has a Kaiser SF residency certificate, believes in the system, has a family in the Bay Area, and is willing to teach the new residents/medical students.

    Who do you think the job will be offered to?
     
  31. gutonc

    gutonc No Meat, No Treat
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    That's a ridiculous comparison. Candidate A won't even bother to apply for that job.
     
  32. Pkboi24

    Pkboi24 Don't laugh at my SN
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    Hahaha. Why would you even need the job if you already have a biotech business?
     
  33. WorkaholicsAnon

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    I was wondering this as well! Maybe to keep his/her clinical skills up. Then again, a moonlighting position seems to be more fitting for that purpose, and provide ample flexibility for him/her to focus on the biotech/research interest. Hospitals ALWAYS need more moonlighters!

    Thus, candidate A and candidate B wouldn't exactly be competing with each other.
     
    #32 WorkaholicsAnon, Dec 3, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2010
  34. WorkaholicsAnon

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    You know, I used to think differently but after going through the medical training system, I actually agree very much with this. Well said.

    I mean obviously there are the bad residency programs out there to avoid, but it's not necessarily tier-dependent, ime. "Bad" is sometimes a subjective term too, though sometimes the extent of badness makes it absolute.
     
  35. OveractiveBrain

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    So I didnt know the difference between Osler, Bayview, and Sinai when I applied. Shame on me for not doing my research, but after interviewing at Sinai, I feel like they dont talk themselves up enough. They get bashed a lot on forums, and really they shouldnt be.

    Of the three, it is the "worst." Worst in the sense that there are a lot of foreigners, though they only support J-1 visas, decreasing the desirability for FMGs. Worst in the sense they have no fellowships of their own (though they do export to some decent programs), Worst in the sense that it is a "community hospital with only an affiliation" to a major university.

    But they have many benefits, even if they are seen as demerits. If your goal is to get a top-notch fellowship because you want to be the premier researcher in a field, Sinai is clearly not for you. But because they have no fellows on staff (demerit?), the residents are forced into a supra-standard education (benefit). Since they are asked to make all the decisions, do all the procedures, and run their teams, they take an active role in patient management, preparing them as superior physicians. That being said, I wasn't very impressed with some of the housestaff. Some were wizard smart, some could have done with an extra year of medical school. Regardless of their level of education, everyone was HAPPY.

    Then, because of their affiliation with JHU, their residents are able to do research with the big dogs. So, while the fellowships do not fall into the laps of the residents as they might at a better named school, if the residents work at it, they too can land a nice fellowship.

    I just want it known that while Sinai is the "worst of the three" it is certainly not a pididle community program that trains primary care docs. You really can succeed quite well while there. If you're a Student Doctor poster (Boards > 260 and all honors) you probably would feel cheated ending up there. If you want to learn to practice medicine, you will really enjoy it.

    Bottom line JHU >> Bayview > Sinai as some one said, but dont write it off if you are legitimately considering a career in medicine.
     

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