Judicial Hellholes

Started by Birdstrike
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bravotwozero said:
I wouldn't be so sure...I remember reading somewhere thousands of people move from California to Austin every year..
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California has more out-migration of residents than in-migration at least for the last few years. This of course is more than made up for by the undocumented people California lets in under their sanctuary state policies. It's a great business model: chase away your tax-paying, educated middle class, and replace them with unskilled, uneducated workers who will collect welfare benefits.

Of course the wealthy Hollywood/Silicon valley people stay because they have enough money to surround themselves in a bubble. I guess for them CA is great.
 
I think the chief reason for out migration isn’t the taxes, though. It’s the insane property values/rental costs that are driving people out, just they are in NYC. The government has nothing to do with this, and to change that would require legislation that would interfere with the free market - something you obviously have a problem with.


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bravotwozero said:
I think the chief reason for out migration isn’t the taxes, though. It’s the insane property values/rental costs that are driving people out, just they are in NYC. The government has nothing to do with this, and to change that would require legislation that would interfere with the free market - something you obviously have a problem with.


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Actully the government has a lot to do with it. Zoning restrictions have prevented high-rise or new construction in a lot of areas in the Bay Area and LA. This has led to a decreased supply of housing units, and of course higher prices. Texas has much more free zoning regulations, and thus housing has remained relatively affordable despite explosive growth in population in the 4 major cities.
 
Gotta love my home state: Louisiana-Where half the state is underwater and the other half is under indictment. There's multiple ambulance chaser billboards on every corner and multiple commercials every break. Probably the only state to ever have a convicted felon run against a former klansman for governor.

I think the article says it best: “Rounding out the latest Hellholes list is #8 Louisiana,” Joyce reported, “where a former trial lawyer turned governor cheerleads litigation against the Pelican State’s critical energy industry and has hired rich political donors to run it. Ethically challenged judges and seemingly bogus ADA lawsuits make things worse.”

Corruption and graft is so entrenched in the system here, it's almost encouraged. You'd probably have to start with the insurance industry and go from there, but we'd have to keep the insurance commissioner out of jail first.
 
GeneralVeers said:
California has more out-migration of residents than in-migration at least for the last few years. This of course is more than made up for by the undocumented people California lets in under their sanctuary state policies. It's a great business model: chase away your tax-paying, educated middle class, and replace them with unskilled, uneducated workers who will collect welfare benefits.

Of course the wealthy Hollywood/Silicon valley people stay because they have enough money to surround themselves in a bubble. I guess for them CA is great.
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Undocumented immigrants are the backbone of our agricultural system. Without them, our food would cost three times as much.

Furthermore, undocumented immigrants are ineligible for most federally funded safety net programs. Undocumented immigrants contributed $2.2 billion in state income tax in California in 2010 alone, and country-wide contribute about $15B to social security per year despite being ineligible to claim these benefits in the future.
 
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GorillaPanic said:
Undocumented immigrants are the backbone of our agricultural system. Without them, our food would cost three times as much.

Furthermore, undocumented immigrants are ineligible for most federally funded safety net programs. Undocumented immigrants contributed $2.2 billion in state income tax in California in 2010 alone, and country-wide contribute about $15B to social security per year despite being ineligible to claim these benefits in the future.
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You beat me to the punch. Facts are pesky things.
 
bravotwozero said:
I think the chief reason for out migration isn’t the taxes, though. It’s the insane property values/rental costs that are driving people out, just they are in NYC. The government has nothing to do with this, and to change that would require legislation that would interfere with the free market - something you obviously have a problem with.


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The government has everything to do with it. Property taxes are a large part of, and are tied to, the cost of homeownership. Also, the higher your state taxes are, the harder it is to afford other high costs of living. These casts don’t occur in a vacuum.
 
GorillaPanic said:
Undocumented immigrants are the backbone of our agricultural system. Without them, our food would cost three times as much.

Furthermore, undocumented immigrants are ineligible for most federally funded safety net programs. Undocumented immigrants contributed $2.2 billion in state income tax in California in 2010 alone, and country-wide contribute about $15B to social security per year despite being ineligible to claim these benefits in the future.
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In other words, the state of California is using the undocumented immigrants as a form of cheap labor while still milking them for taxes without having to pay them legal minimum wage or benefits?

I think you just made his point for him.
 
Birdstrike said:
In other words, the state of California is using the undocumented immigrants as a form of cheap labor while still milking them for taxes without having to pay them legal minimum wage or benefits?

I think you just made his point for him.
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You are right. My explanation was just bad business. Theirs is downright unethical and inhumane
 
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Birdstrike said:
In other words, the state of California is using the undocumented immigrants as a form of cheap labor while still milking them for taxes without having to pay them legal minimum wage or benefits?

I think you just made his point for him.
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The part I took exception to was perpetuating the false myth that undocumented immigrants are taking advantage of welfare and aren’t hard workers. I agree that the exploitation is wrong, which is why I felt compelled to defend them.
 
bravotwozero said:
If i'm not mistaken, florida has undergone some changes in its malpractice climate, because they were getting their butts handed to them because of a severe shortage of physicians in high risk specialties. Quickest solution is to NOT work in those states...
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It seems as though the article is not specifically referring to medical malpractice though. California is actually reasonable in that regard with a cap on non economic damages at 250,000.

Property taxes and income taxes aside are a different story though.
 
GeneralVeers said:
Actully the government has a lot to do with it. Zoning restrictions have prevented high-rise or new construction in a lot of areas in the Bay Area and LA. This has led to a decreased supply of housing units, and of course higher prices. Texas has much more free zoning regulations, and thus housing has remained relatively affordable despite explosive growth in population in the 4 major cities.
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Zoning regulations play a role but there is also a fair amount of NIMBYism from older residents. Part of this is not unreasonable because you can't just rezone a low density area to high density without a proper plan. If the infrastructure for roads and parking eyc are not set up, then it is a recipe for disaster.
 
GorillaPanic said:
The part I took exception to was perpetuating the false myth that undocumented immigrants are taking advantage of welfare and aren’t hard workers. I agree that the exploitation is wrong, which is why I felt compelled to defend them.
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I never said they aren't hard workers, just they don't pay taxes. If you aren't a legal resident, and aren't legally working, how do you pay taxes? Please educate me on that.

Also they do use social services. they use public education, medi-cal, get driver's licenses, use 911 services, and I'm sure a myriad other freebies CA offers.
 
anonperson said:
Zoning regulations play a role but there is also a fair amount of NIMBYism from older residents. Part of this is not unreasonable because you can't just rezone a low density area to high density without a proper plan. If the infrastructure for roads and parking eyc are not set up, then it is a recipe for disaster.
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It's interesting to me that the hyper-liberal wealthy, who feel so badly for the plight of the poor, and immigrants are the ones who block cheap public housing in their neighborhoods in order to maintain property values.
 
bravotwozero said:
Sales taxes, not payroll..



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Everyone pays sales taxes, but the majority of the US government is paid by income tax, which they do not pay.
Actually if you think about it the amount of sales tax they do pay does not make up for the amount of money they use. Schools, ERs, Hospitals, Roads, uninsured MVCs, 911 system.

Also their children are US citizens so are eligible for WIC, Welfare, Food Stamps, Etc, which their parents never contributed towards. So while illegal immigrants are very hard workers, they are an overall drain on the country
 
The Truth About Undocumented Immigrants and Taxes

The article talks about Social Security but the same thing holds true for withheld state and federal taxes. State and federal income taxes are taken out of everyone's paycheck, and paying more than one or two people these days in cash is a guaranteed federal indictment for money laundering.

(And to preempt a reply, keep in mind that this is the same IRS that didn't blink an eye when a random person told them I made $2M and was due a $500K refund which they duly paid to that criminal. So there is no way they are going to identify a fake SSAN in anything close to real time.)
 
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Vandalia said:
The Truth About Undocumented Immigrants and Taxes

The article talks about Social Security but the same thing holds true for withheld state and federal taxes. State and federal income taxes are taken out of everyone's paycheck, and paying more than one or two people these days in cash is a guaranteed federal indictment for money laundering.
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I think you are underestimating how common it is to pay people in cash. It's not rare. It's actually the norm in many low wage small business environments such as construction and remodeling. Approximately $215 billion in income goes unreported to the IRS each year according to one recent survey.

Side hustle and tax evasion: The telling statistics | finder.com

There are many online sources, including directly from the IRS, that estimate the tax gap due to unreported cash income is in the billions. That's a lot of money paid under the table.
 
Here is the thing. I lived in AZ for 9 years. Paying cash for people who do typical “illegal” type labor is incredibly common. These fields are construction, housekeeping, landscaping.

While even if they pay “their fair share” of income tax (doubtful) social security (also doubtful) and Medicare for the most part these folks are a drain on the states.

While it certainly helps the guy who owns the landscape company (though many work for themselves), the construction guy for the average person it costs them as they do not pay their ED bills, they use up “free clinics”, they send their kids to school and for the most part they often as many other low wage people have a large number of kids.

My point isn’t whether it is good or bad. When I was in AZ these people did great work at a great rate. But to even remotely consider that they are a net positive (financially) is foolish. Most of them send money back home which has a negative impact as well. Also, you have to include the cost of those kids born to illegals who have no money and then get WIC, Medicaid etc. thats all before they start school. Also, the cost of incarceration isn’t small and neither is the cost of the systems to limit illegals.

My personal politics on this are if someone wants to come here and work hard and make a better life for themselves I am all for it.
 
GeneralVeers said:
I never said they aren't hard workers, just they don't pay taxes. If you aren't a legal resident, and aren't legally working, how do you pay taxes? Please educate me on that.

Also they do use social services. they use public education, medi-cal, get driver's licenses, use 911 services, and I'm sure a myriad other freebies CA offers.
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Almost all illegal immigrants have a resident SSN, leading to them paying taxes into social security. Not that they benefit, just contribute. Works for all of our elderly.
 
GeneralVeers said:
Actully the government has a lot to do with it. Zoning restrictions have prevented high-rise or new construction in a lot of areas in the Bay Area and LA. This has led to a decreased supply of housing units, and of course higher prices. Texas has much more free zoning regulations, and thus housing has remained relatively affordable despite explosive growth in population in the 4 major cities.
Click to expand...

I would argue the opposite. As someone who lives in one of those 4 cities, the property value for most houses has nearly doubled in the past 4-5 years. Even looking at the rent costs in Austin, it has become cost prohibitive due to the continued influx of people into the city.

Birdstrike said:
The government has everything to do with it. Property taxes are a large part of, and are tied to, the cost of homeownership. Also, the higher your state taxes are, the harder it is to afford other high costs of living. These casts don’t occur in a vacuum.
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Property taxes are not the major factor here. If it were, then Texas (which has one of the highest property taxes in the nation) would be one of the states with the least number of homeowners, which is just not true. The cost of the home has to be taken into account when evaluating the driver of emigration. a 1% tax on a $458K home in California (median price of a home sold in CA) is a hell of a lot worse than a 2% property tax on a $172K home sold in Texas (median price for a home sold in TX).
 
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