just accepted to Ivy vs. State... concerned about loans. Advice please!

[ou_jay]

If you fail a class, you take a makeup exam and get a P grade….but at a A/B/D/F school, if you fail a class (ie a preclinical class b/c you don’t have good hand skills), your GPA is significantly affected.

F's don't count on your transcript at a GPA school either. You can't get your degree unless you pass every class in the curriculum. So they just have you "remediate" which is retake the test.

Ou_jay, you really have to attend a P/F school and apply for post grad specialty to understand why there is a huge the advantage of going to a P/F dental school.

That may be true, but you can very successfully get into any type of residency from a GPA school too. You really have to attend a GPA school and apply for post-grad to understand. So why pay the extra $160,000 (not $70,000), if specializing is your only reason?

My school didn't give us time to study for boards. We had to take Part I in the fall of sophomore year. The same semester we started doing lots of preclinic and labwork and were also still studying basic science hardcore. We had to take Part II in the fall of senior year. It sucked balancing all that studying and working for school with studying for boards, but I still did very well. Also about 25% of my class scored in the 90's on Part I. This is pretty good for a school where only about 33% of people want to specialize.

That being said I would like to echo 2 previous posts:
1.) Predents don't really know if they want to specialize yet.
2.) If you are afraid you can't succeed, then maybe you should go to a P/F school to avoid competition.

However, if you have that little confidence in yourself, I doubt you will be very successful in any dental school. Also, if you can't handle the workload of competing in dental school then a residency might be a bit of a problem for you. I'm not sure because I haven't been in one, but I know from watching them that the OMFS residents and the 1st year Ortho residents at our school work harder than almost any dental student.

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[Guy Smiley]

F's don't count on your transcript at a GPA school either. You can't get your degree unless you pass every class in the curriculum. So they just have you "remediate" which is retake the test.

While this is true, at the school I went to, if you fail the first time, you get a C when you actually pass it the second time around at least at my school. This happened to someone who became a member of my class after having to repeat a year.

You also have to remember that although you can specialize and do well at any school, many superstars from undergrad become average in dental school. Your 22 on the DAT doesn't seem so hot when you have a classmate who scored a 28. You won't know for sure how you'll fare in dental school until you are there. And I can say that odds are against you being the #1 in your class, just based on statistics. Case in point: You said 25% of your class scored in the 90's and 33% want to specialize in your class. It sounds like one quarter of all those who want to specialize in your class didn't break into the 90's. Are you saying that the quarter who didn't get in the 90's didn't have enough confidence or they weren't smart enough to score higher? I am not trying to be patronizing. I am just trying to point out that there are many intelligent, hard working individuals who don't do as well as they wish they had.

I am not saying the OP should go to Harvard so they can specialize. People specialize from state schools all the time. Most residents in ortho, OMFS, etc. are from state schools given the small number of graduates Harvard puts out every year. All that I, and i think the others who have replied, are trying to say is that Harvard puts a statistically significant larger portion of its classes into specialties compared to every other dental school. I don't think that this is the only factor to be considered, but I definitely would consider it if I was in the OP's shoes.

 

[ou_jay]

Case in point: You said 25% of your class scored in the 90's and 33% want to specialize in your class. It sounds like one quarter of all those who want to specialize in your class didn't break into the 90's. Are you saying that the quarter who didn't get in the 90's didn't have enough confidence or they weren't smart enough to score higher? I am not trying to be patronizing. I am just trying to point out that there are many intelligent, hard working individuals who don't do as well as they wish they had.

Yes about 25% of those who initially thought of specializing probably won't be able too (but that means 75% will). I suppose some may have legitimately changed their minds, but for the others that is exactly what I am saying. Maybe they weren't sure of themselves, and so they handicapped themselves. Maybe they just did not work very hard.

Most (not all but most) of the people who get into dental school are very smart. Yes the competition is excellent, but very few people are locked out of the competition due to their intelligence. If they stop being the best, it is because they stopped working harder than everyone else. It is easy to use the excuse of "not everyone can be the best in dental school because the competition is harder" to stop working harder than everyone else.

I am not saying that it is not a crazy amount of work; it is. Maybe at a pass/fail school it would be easier, but if you are smart enough to get into dental school (especially if you are smart enough to get into Harvard) then you can be at the top of your class in your state school. There is no question about it. You can do it. Maybe you won't do it, but you can.

 

[charlestweed]

That may be true, but you can very successfully get into any type of residency from a GPA school too. You really have to attend a GPA school and apply for post-grad to understand. So why pay the extra $160,000 (not $70,000), if specializing is your only reason?

That being said I would like to echo 2 previous posts:
1.) Predents don't really know if they want to specialize yet.
2.) If you are afraid you can't succeed, then maybe you should go to a P/F school to avoid competition.

I agree 100% that you can specialize from any dental school. Is it worth spending extra 70k-160k to go to a school (like Harvard) that gives you a better chance for ortho? In my opinion, Yes. It is hard not to like ortho. Maybe these predents observed an ortho practice in the past and they like the friendly atmosphere: a doctor and his/her staff who always smile, a nice waiting room with lots of video games, mostly happy teenage patients, no blood, no syringe/needle, no crying kids etc…

However, if you have that little confidence in yourself, I doubt you will be very successful in any dental school. Also, if you can't handle the workload of competing in dental school then a residency might be a bit of a problem for you. I'm not sure because I haven't been in one, but I know from watching them that the OMFS residents and the 1st year Ortho residents at our school work harder than almost any dental student.

This is again why going a P/F school is a big plus….it is for those people (like me) who don’t have enough confidence in themselves and want to specialize.

 

[ou_jay]

To Dr. Tweed: I agree that the P/F system is probably the right thing for some people, but for the other people we will have to agree to disagree on whether Ivy league schools increase your chance of acceptance to specialty programs. It will be especially interesting to see how the lack of board score will affect the situation. There are logical arguments that it will help Ivy league students and that it will hurt them. Only time will tell.

Anyway, to the OP: Have you made a decision?

 

[HStudent]

I didn't read all the posts, so maybe someones already said as much...
but IMO whether the degrees will make any difference is not so much when applying to a post-grad program, but possibly afterwards depending on what you do. In general, where you get your degree isn't gonna matter much, even if its from Harvard. However, in certain fields, it will help a lot; if you want to do cosmetic dentistry/ortho, especially in LA or Miami, the name will be well worth $70K. Otherwise, you'll be happy to have gone with the state school 10 years from now. Good luck either way

 

[Lesley]

Harvard.

It sounds like you are going to have to borrow heavily for either option. Harvard is Harvard. Down the road you don't know what attending and graduating from this school could mean to you. It could mean better specialization, job and/or teaching opportunities. Possibly a financial break, fellowship or scholarship, during specialization. The school's curriculum may present opportunities that allow you to participate in research, if that is something you are interested in. The learning environment you'll be in during the next four years is important too. Dental school is stressful no matter where you go. I'm sure one of the admissions counselors could direct you to someone at the school to discuss opportunities that exist for Harvard students and graduates. You should look into it.

However, when choosing between schools cost is important. If going to a state school was a free ride or almost a free ride compared with Harvard, the state school would be the way to go. Good Luck with your decision.

 

[dentstd]

I don't know if you guys realize, but the difference between 95th and 50th percentile in the class is not great. Most the time for us, it's 2.5-3.5 questions on a 50 question multiple choice exam. Around 7 questions separate 95th and 5th percentile. It's not that those at the top of the class study their ass off while those at the bottom don't. Virtually everybody goes thru a grueling studying process, but some just don't fare as well on exams.

There are these "sayings" circulating about how if you don't want to specialize, then you don't really have to work all that hard. Don't "work all that hard" and you may find yourself failing a test with a 40%.

It's not a matter of desire, it's a matter of ability. Meaning, it's not a matter of working hard, because everybody works hard. It's a matter of how you fare on exams. The top students edge out others.

 

[emmy44]

Still no decision... sigh. But thank you so much, everyone, for all the advice! I'm meeting with a few more dentists over break to get their opinion. So far I'm still between UIC and Harvard... although I think I'm actually leaning towards UIC. I've ruled out Penn. A lot of people say that if I keep my eye on my goals and work hard, I'll be able to specialize out of UIC. I'm pretty confident in doing well, so hopefully everything will work out!!

 

[somethinpositiv]

p.s. Whlee, just got into Penn, and also got the Dean's scholarship! This makes things much more complicated.

Penn w/ Dean's Scholarship is similar to or even cheaper than UIC. Your best choice might be Penn w/ Dean's Scholarship (though personally I would choose Harvard).

 

[texas_dds]

i would go to penn or UIC (they have class ranks, no?). having a scholarship is something nice to put on your CV and will save you money for the next 30 years. you can specialize from anywhere, i promise.

 

[alphaDDS]

The state school is UIC, not Wash, UCLA or some other heavy hitter state school. The responses you get from this site are as follows...

Student A, went to and Ivy, thinks you should go to Harvard.
Student B, went to State U, thinks States are just as good so long as you work hard.

Dental school is about a lot more than the cost of school. Go where you think will offer the best setting for you to develop into the best dentist you can be. Sounds cheesy, but in the long run 4 years of your life is worth more than 70,000 dollars.

 

[DMD-2-B]

Well, the reason I think I would have a better chance of specializing at Harvard is because over 90% of their students specialize. Last year, 12 out the the 34 ended up in ortho programs. To me this seems like a pretty convincing statistic.

If this statistic is correct, then go there!

 

[sajjy]

If this statistic is correct, then go there!

Yeap, 12 for Ortho and 8 for OMFS, and rest either endo, pedo or perio.

 

[dentstd]

Yeap, 12 for Ortho and 8 for OMFS, and rest either endo, pedo or perio.

See, the thing here is that Harvard's boasting a 100% specialty rate for the last year or so. When something like this happens, it means that their bottom students are specializing, obviously. The thing is...their bottom students are always a 17AA, because they always accept one each year. So even the 17AA's are specializing if from Harvard.

 

[gryffindor]

See, the thing here is that Harvard's boasting a 100% specialty rate for the last year or so. When something like this happens, it means that their bottom students are specializing, obviously. The thing is...their bottom students are always a 17AA, because they always accept one each year. So even the 17AA's are specializing if from Harvard.

There are no bottom students. They are a P/F school with a 93 part I average.

BTW, your sig is ridiculous. Some of the best OMS programs in terms of scope and training are at state programs. Those LA and CU kids would be lucky to train at those places. Get your facts straight.

 

[dentstd]

There are no bottom students. They are a P/F school with a 93 part I average.

BTW, your sig is ridiculous. Some of the best OMS programs in terms of scope and training are at state programs. Those LA and CU kids would be lucky to train at those places. Get your facts straight.

There's a bottom student. He has a 17AA. It just so happens that he attended Harvard. He may not have a GPA, but he also didn't have a history of test taking success. And I doubt a 17AA can easily score anywhere near that 90+ average for the school.

Sig's a parody. It's supposed to be ridiculous.

 

[gryffindor]

There's a bottom student. He has a 17AA. It just so happens that he attended Harvard. He may not have a GPA, but he also didn't have a history of test taking success. And I doubt a 17AA can easily score anywhere near that 90+ average for the school.

Sig's a parody. It's supposed to be ridiculous.

It doesn't matter. Once you get to dental school, everyone gets to start over with a clean slate. There are 4.0/high DAT types who barely pass in dental school because they can't memorize and keep up with the volume. Then there are the 3.1/mediocre DAT types who leave the lazy undergrad attitude behind, become very intense and serious about dental school and sit at the top of the class.

 

[whlee84]

thats one of the dumbest things ive ever heard.

Well, you're a white boy so you have no clue, do you?

Like I said, word of mouth gets around VERY quick in the Asian communities, and once they see an Ad with your name and "Harvard" written next to it, every single Asian in the area is going to that dentist no matter what (this is assuming you are a decent dentist who is friendly). It's sad to say, but Asians do love the "brand" name in all aspects of society, whether it be clothes, cars, schools or dentists. The only thing Asian parents ever talk about during social meetings is where their kids went to college, and whether or not it's an Ivy school. Next time, try to understand other people's cultures and upbringing before calling anything "the dumbest thing you've ever heard"

 

[gryffindor]

Well, you're a white boy so you have no clue, do you?

Like I said, word of mouth gets around VERY quick in the Asian communities, and once they see an Ad with your name and "Harvard" written next to it, every single Asian in the area is going to that dentist no matter what (this is assuming you are a decent dentist who is friendly). It's sad to say, but Asians do love the "brand" name in all aspects of society, whether it be clothes, cars, schools or dentists. The only thing Asian parents ever talk about during social meetings is where their kids went to college, and whether or not it's an Ivy school. Next time, try to understand other people's cultures and upbringing before calling anything "the dumbest thing you've ever heard"

You are not the first Asian to come on SDN and inform us of this. I'm not aware that Asian communities are terribly underserved so it is going to take much more than having an ivy degree to establish a successful niche in those communities. Makes me wonder how all those Asians who graduated from my state school could possibly be doing right now what with being the un-ivy black sheep doctors in their communities.

 

[charlestweed]

School name is important for many Asians but it’s not the most important thing that makes them choose your practice. I think you can get more Asian patients if you speak their language and your fees are lower than your non-Asian competitors. I’ve seen many foreign trained Asian dentists who are more successful than the US trained Asian dentists.

 

[Imbetterthanyou]

It doesn't matter. Once you get to dental school, everyone gets to start over with a clean slate. There are 4.0/high DAT types who barely pass in dental school because they can't memorize and keep up with the volume. Then there are the 3.1/mediocre DAT types who leave the lazy undergrad attitude behind, become very intense and serious about dental school and sit at the top of the class.

The implication is that Harvard as a mechanism for screening students with 17AA who didn't make that effort in college. And once they got into dental school, they were able to crank it up 4 notches in a medical school rapid pace. Need I remind you that a 17 is like, getting less than half the questions right. Factoring in the guesses that someone makes, that's knowing about a third of the questions and guessing the rest of the way. Somehow, this student's able to pull off about a 90 Part I? I think not.

And oh, I remember reading an article studying students' entrance scores and dental school grades and NBDE scores. These articles say flat out: students who have lower entrance scores NEVER perform at the higher end of the class.

 

[Imbetterthanyou]

School name is important for many Asians but it's not the most important thing that makes them choose your practice. I think you can get more Asian patients if you speak their language and your fees are lower than your non-Asian competitors. I've seen many foreign trained Asian dentists who are more successful than the US trained Asian dentists.

The most important factors in getting a patient for the first time are location, price, a good advertisment, and ethnic background. The first 3 are self-explanatory. The last is less thought of. Hispanic patients prefer to go to a hispanic dentist if available. Black patients to blacks, and Asian patients to Asian dentists. Whether they come back depends largely on whether they liked you as a person and whether you did a good job. The degree granting institution discussion never comes up. The role this plays is almost exclusively specialty applications. ...and some networking

 

[alphaDDS]

It doesn't matter. Once you get to dental school, everyone gets to start over with a clean slate. There are 4.0/high DAT types who barely pass in dental school because they can't memorize and keep up with the volume. Then there are the 3.1/mediocre DAT types who leave the lazy undergrad attitude behind, become very intense and serious about dental school and sit at the top of the class.

True, that happens, but how often, really? I mean, if it was commonplace that 3.1/17AA applicants wound up at the top of the class, then a lot more people with mediocre stats would be in dental school.

 

[Jaybe]

I think most people from Harvard dental that apply to specialty programs are accepted.

Don't they keep class ranks secret for that exact reason?

 

[hersheyslove]

Well, you're a white boy so you have no clue, do you?

Like I said, word of mouth gets around VERY quick in the Asian communities, and once they see an Ad with your name and "Harvard" written next to it, every single Asian in the area is going to that dentist no matter what (this is assuming you are a decent dentist who is friendly). It's sad to say, but Asians do love the "brand" name in all aspects of society, whether it be clothes, cars, schools or dentists. The only thing Asian parents ever talk about during social meetings is where their kids went to college, and whether or not it's an Ivy school. Next time, try to understand other people's cultures and upbringing before calling anything "the dumbest thing you've ever heard"

you Asian bring us humility

 

[kramkrap]

You guys are really ******ed, how about you give real advice to the OP, aren't we all in this profession together??

Hey OP,

I have a similar dilemma as you do, picking either the IVY or the good state school. If you really want to make a good decision, think of what will make you the most content. You've got three really good schools on the plate now. Know that in the back of your head that no matter which school you pick, its going to be a win win situation, thats the way I look at it.

No matter what, you will find pro's and con's of each school. What do you value most? loan payment plans, specialty, distance, etc. Prioritize. If you can put them on a scale and one outbalances the other, than go with it. If you really cant seem to find that weight, then the best thing to do would be to go to wherever you would've regret the least. If you choose school B, and really really cant let the fact that school A is on your mind... then that should tell you something.. Just goto school A dude, trust me its a win/win situation. There are Pro's in all three of those schools.Don't listen to what all these other baboons are talking about, just go with your gut, its your best bet.

you Asian bring us humility

 

[Doh Boy Fresh]

F's don't count on your transcript at a GPA school either. You can't get your degree unless you pass every class in the curriculum. So they just have you "remediate" which is retake the test.



That may be true, but you can very successfully get into any type of residency from a GPA school too. You really have to attend a GPA school and apply for post-grad to understand. So why pay the extra $160,000 (not $70,000), if specializing is your only reason?

My school didn't give us time to study for boards. We had to take Part I in the fall of sophomore year. The same semester we started doing lots of preclinic and labwork and were also still studying basic science hardcore. We had to take Part II in the fall of senior year. It sucked balancing all that studying and working for school with studying for boards, but I still did very well. Also about 25% of my class scored in the 90's on Part I. This is pretty good for a school where only about 33% of people want to specialize.

That being said I would like to echo 2 previous posts:
1.) Predents don't really know if they want to specialize yet.
2.) If you are afraid you can't succeed, then maybe you should go to a P/F school to avoid competition.

However, if you have that little confidence in yourself, I doubt you will be very successful in any dental school. Also, if you can't handle the workload of competing in dental school then a residency might be a bit of a problem for you. I'm not sure because I haven't been in one, but I know from watching them that the OMFS residents and the 1st year Ortho residents at our school work harder than almost any dental student.

I'm not sure why i chose to quote the person above...

Anyhooo, my point is, if high board scores is what you seek, go to SIU because SIU's class ranked at #5 and they have close to a 98-100% pass rate for the past 10 years. Why? because the school spends a good part of summer prepping you for the boards and then also gives you ample time to study on your own. That plus a little working your ass off will get you all teh specialization you want. So why pay the extra ungodly amount to go to harvard?

 

[gryffindor]

True, that happens, but how often, really? I mean, if it was commonplace that 3.1/17AA applicants wound up at the top of the class, then a lot more people with mediocre stats would be in dental school.

A lot more people with mediocre stats used to be in dental school. The students with the higher stats went to med school or had some real compelling reason to be drawn to dentistry and pursue dental school. It's only in the last few years that the stats have gotten higher. So it's possible as incoming class stats change, class dynamics of who ends up on top will change too.

 

[texas_dds]

If you are afraid you can't succeed, then maybe you should go to a P/F school to avoid competition.

I disagree - P/F schools breed intense competition because there is no early (1st year) stratification of the class... every single person in the class is gunning for a specialty because no one knows where they stand. in my class of 90 or so, the top 10-15 people rose to the top early, and the other 75 calmed down and did what they had to do to get by. The competition is LESS in that case - or just different. Its a daily grind to gets As day in and day out, but the air of competition with everyone else is not there. You are really just left competing with yourself in a GPA system. Its much like golf.

I will also tell you that I have talked to A LOT of residency directors that look skeptically at P/F applicants because there is no way to tell them apart other than boards. anyways, my two cents.

To the OP - I would go to the state school. Your lenders dont care where you went, they want to get paid. And you won't make any more $$ by going to one school over another. I went to school relatively cheaply (~160K for dental + ortho) and my loan bills are still big! not much left over to play with.