Just Got Fired From My First Job - ER Scribe: Enough clinical experience?

[PortlandSurgeon]

hey, long-time lurker, first time poster...

I graduated from OSU last may with a degree in bio. in my gap year was working at my ugrad lab part-time but didn't have any clinical experience so applied for a job with a scribe company.

about 6 months ago I was hired on at a new site. after the implementation team left they picked me as new chief scribe, the leader of the 14 scribes on-site. I applied and got picked. this was my first medical clinical experience job and also my first leadership position.

on thursday I got a call from the vp of HR who said they sent a survey out to my team and I got negative feedback. some people said that I would warn them for being 1 or 2 minutes late but I was late myself occasionally. one scribe said I told her to "grow a pair." another girl said that I said a particular doctor didn't like my charts because I didn't have a va****.

i'll own up to my mistakes. yes, i told her to grow a pair. we were joking, or so i thought. if any of you have ever worked in an emergency dept, you know how raunchy it can get in there. my mistake was thinking that because we all talk like that in the ed, that it was ok to talk like that outside the ed especially in a text message thread. yes, I made a joke one night when we were all out drinking right after i became chief and i said that dr so-and-so only like to work with female scribes, so i probably did say something like dr so and so didn't like me b/c i didnt have a va****.

so anyway the vp of HR called me on thursday when i was at my lab and asked me about like 8 accusations. i was shocked and surprised and immediatey said no i dont think i said that stuff. after all it was like 3 or 4 interactions in hundreds. later that night after work i looked through my phone and saw that i did say some of it, i e-mailed her and told her that i did say things similar to what was accused against me.

yesterday i got the call from her saying that i was being terminated. she said that i lied to her the day before. she said that several scribes on my former team had bad things to say about me and even some of the physicians and hospital staff had negative things to say about me. one month before all this the FMD said that i was asking too many questions in the ED and i should just stick to charting and that i'll learn everything in medical school not to ask too many questions now. so when the hr lady said that hospital staff and physicians had bad things to say about me, i dont know if all that is true, but whatever the case is, i got fired. it hurt alot because no matter what other people said i did work really hard to make sure things were running smooth. and i only got positive performance reviews from my bosses.

clearly looking back i did some wrong things. i think it deserved a warning or something before getting a call one day with like 8 accusations and the next day being fired, but that is what happened. it hurts but i'm fine with it, i guess i have more time to study for the mcat which i'm taking next month before applying this cycle. it hurts but im fine with my life, i learned a very valuable lesson about being professional in the workplace. this was my first leadership role and i screwed it up, but better now than when i'm a physician or surgeon.
also working in the emergency dept was cool but after a few months it became repetitive, the same abd pain, SOB, AMS patients and cases coming in, and i just felt like a glorified secretary.

so my question to you sdn is,

1. do you think 6 months as a scribe is enough clinical experience? i have some throwaway hospital volunteering where i led patients from waiting room to exam room but thats about it otherwise.

2. do you have to put on amcas the reason you stopped working there? i don't want to say i got fired, but i don't want to lie either.

3. is there anything dishonest about saying that i was the leader of this scribe team of 14 scribes for 6 months? i was the leader for 6 months. i guess i just didnt do a great job and was terminated.

4. is it wrong to email some of the former docs i worked with in the er and ask for LOR? some of them i know liked me and preferred to work with me.

5. does anyone else have similar experience they can share? i feel pretty rough about this. couldn't sleep well last night.

6. if its not enough clinical experience do you have any suggestions for what else i can do for this application cycle or the next one that would give me more clinical experience with my scribe background?

Edit:

7. Another question i had is this: is there a way to spin this and say that i got fired but i learned a valuable lesson about professionalism? or is it more wise to just not mention getting fired at all.

like i said, looking back i know did some wrong things, but overall i worked hard being a scribe, manager, and liaison between the physicians, the company, and the scribes so i don't want getting fired to overshadow all the rest of it.

thanks

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[cookiemonsters]

You have more than enough clinical experience at this point. You will want to include this activity on your AMCAS, but you do not have to say that you were fired. You will have to include a reference, so try to pick someone who will only have positive things to say. A six month stint on a paid job might raise some eyebrows, so don't be surprised if your reference gets a phone call or email asking why it lasted only six months. A LOR from a physician who will only say nice things in the letter would also be preferred.

Hopefully in your next stint you will do a better job of separating work and personal life. This is an example of professionalism. What you say and do off the clock is not mutually exclusive to how people will perceive you on the job - especially if you are in a position of leadership like you were in this case.

 

[katiemaude]

You definitely have to be more careful in a professional setting about what you say. It is a good lesson to learn early in life. Hopefully you've learned it. Comments that can be perceived as sexist (note: racist comments fare the same) especially don't go over well.

As for your questions, you can definitely put this on your AMCAS, no need to mention the firing. Pick someone you are 100% sure can give you a good reference *if* contacted - though I wonder if your perceptions about how you are viewed by the staff are accurate, given this HR situation took you by surprise. For that reason, I would suggest picking a male staff member. Perhaps have an MD you shadowed outside the ED write you a recommendation letter. Someone from the scribe job could potentially reference the firing or the bad ending to this job and it would hurt your chances of getting into medical school.

If you refer to this job in your AMCAS essays, I'd suggest talking about the leadership position in a way that reflects how you learned about professionalism, managing others fairly, etc. without going into how you failed to do those things in your first job.

 

[darkjedi]

The fact that you won't have a recommendation from the only full time job you have had so far will raise eyebrows.

I don't think you were fired for lying, it sounds like you had poor leadership and professionalism skills. These things can be fixed as long as you are aware of them and willing to change.

 

[Boolean]

The fact that you won't have a recommendation from the only full time job you have had so far will raise eyebrows.

I don't think you were fired for lying, it sounds like you had poor leadership and professionalism skills. These things can be fixed as long as you are aware of them and willing to change.

Agreeing with @darkjedi on this one. The poor professional skills is something you really need to look out for. When you are representing a company as you were, you should be imagining that a camera is on you at all times. If you do something that reflects badly upon them, they won't take nicely to it.

 

[DokterMom]

My vote? All of the above.

Yes, it would have been nice to get a warning first. On the other hand, your comments were sexist and unprofessional, and while you can filter your 'words', the attitudes your words implied are troublesome. As team leader, you were representing the scribe company, and in that capacity, you failed. Your employer - the Scribe company - cares about keeping their client (the Hospital) happy, and taking swift, decisive action (firing you) does that.

Learn what you can from this, and find more professional ways to communicate --

 

[Frostbite22]

I definitely think it was justified. The major problem was your poor leadership skills which was already mentioned. I have been a manager/supervisor before and I made it a strict rule to never fraternize with those I was managing. Why? Because you are not supposed to be their friend, you are supposed to be their leader and exclude yourself from getting too close on that level. I never got to know them on a friends basis and therefore didn't feel I needed to make "raunchy" comments or half ass my work or excuse their performance.

Additionally you shot yourself in the foot with this one. Many people would've killed for that awesome leadership/clinical opportunity and you blew it. You might have been able to save yourself if you wouldn't have lied but it sounds like the firing was a long time in the making. Learn from your mistake and realize those comments are not appropriate to coworkers-even late nights at the bar.

 

[xffan624]

hey, long-time lurker, first time poster...

I graduated from OSU last may with a degree in bio. in my gap year was working at my ugrad lab part-time but didn't have any clinical experience so applied for a job with a scribe company.

about 6 months ago I was hired on at a new site. after the implementation team left they picked me as new chief scribe, the leader of the 14 scribes on-site. I applied and got picked. this was my first medical clinical experience job and also my first leadership position.

on thursday I got a call from the vp of HR who said they sent a survey out to my team and I got negative feedback. some people said that I would warn them for being 1 or 2 minutes late but I was late myself occasionally. one scribe said I told her to "grow a pair." another girl said that I said a particular doctor didn't like my charts because I didn't have a va****.

i'll own up to my mistakes. yes, i told her to grow a pair. we were joking, or so i thought. if any of you have ever worked in an emergency dept, you know how raunchy it can get in there. my mistake was thinking that because we all talk like that in the ed, that it was ok to talk like that outside the ed especially in a text message thread. yes, I made a joke one night when we were all out drinking right after i became chief and i said that dr so-and-so only like to work with female scribes, so i probably did say something like dr so and so didn't like me b/c i didnt have a va****.

so anyway the vp of HR called me on thursday when i was at my lab and asked me about like 8 accusations. i was shocked and surprised and immediatey said no i dont think i said that stuff. after all it was like 3 or 4 interactions in hundreds. later that night after work i looked through my phone and saw that i did say some of it, i e-mailed her and told her that i did say things similar to what was accused against me.

yesterday i got the call from her saying that i was being terminated. she said that i lied to her the day before. she said that several scribes on my former team had bad things to say about me and even some of the physicians and hospital staff had negative things to say about me. one month before all this the FMD said that i was asking too many questions in the ED and i should just stick to charting and that i'll learn everything in medical school not to ask too many questions now. so when the hr lady said that hospital staff and physicians had bad things to say about me, i dont know if all that is true, but whatever the case is, i got fired. it hurt alot because no matter what other people said i did work really hard to make sure things were running smooth. and i only got positive performance reviews from my bosses.

clearly looking back i did some wrong things. i think it deserved a warning or something before getting a call one day with like 8 accusations and the next day being fired, but that is what happened. it hurts but i'm fine with it, i guess i have more time to study for the mcat which i'm taking next month before applying this cycle. it hurts but im fine with my life, i learned a very valuable lesson about being professional in the workplace. this was my first leadership role and i screwed it up, but better now than when i'm a physician or surgeon.
also working in the emergency dept was cool but after a few months it became repetitive, the same abd pain, SOB, AMS patients and cases coming in, and i just felt like a glorified secretary.

so my question to you sdn is,

1. do you think 6 months as a scribe is enough clinical experience? i have some throwaway hospital volunteering where i led patients from waiting room to exam room but thats about it otherwise.

2. do you have to put on amcas the reason you stopped working there? i don't want to say i got fired, but i don't want to lie either.

3. is there anything dishonest about saying that i was the leader of this scribe team of 14 scribes for 6 months? i was the leader for 6 months. i guess i just didnt do a great job and was terminated.

4. is it wrong to email some of the former docs i worked with in the er and ask for LOR? some of them i know liked me and preferred to work with me.

5. does anyone else have similar experience they can share? i feel pretty rough about this. couldn't sleep well last night.

6. if its not enough clinical experience do you have any suggestions for what else i can do for this application cycle or the next one that would give me more clinical experience with my scribe background?

Edit:

7. Another question i had is this: is there a way to spin this and say that i got fired but i learned a valuable lesson about professionalism? or is it more wise to just not mention getting fired at all.

like i said, looking back i know did some wrong things, but overall i worked hard being a scribe, manager, and liaison between the physicians, the company, and the scribes so i don't want getting fired to overshadow all the rest of it.

thanks

BTW, is vagina a dirty word? You might want to get used to saying it if you are going be a doctor. Probably about half your patients will have one.

Take a lesson from this. You are not in the locker room with the boys in high school. You are in a professional environment and you are a leader within that environment. It is never ok to make comments like "grow a pair" to a woman (or person in general) whether in or out of the ED. If you had been simply one of the team, then it might have warranted a warning, but you are a supervisor and the company could have faced a sexual harassment suit had they not acted appropriately.

Grow up. You sound like a high schooler put in a position that they were not ready for emotionally.

 

[Planes2Doc]

so my question to you sdn is,

1. do you think 6 months as a scribe is enough clinical experience? i have some throwaway hospital volunteering where i led patients from waiting room to exam room but thats about it otherwise.

2. do you have to put on amcas the reason you stopped working there? i don't want to say i got fired, but i don't want to lie either.

3. is there anything dishonest about saying that i was the leader of this scribe team of 14 scribes for 6 months? i was the leader for 6 months. i guess i just didnt do a great job and was terminated.

4. is it wrong to email some of the former docs i worked with in the er and ask for LOR? some of them i know liked me and preferred to work with me.

5. does anyone else have similar experience they can share? i feel pretty rough about this. couldn't sleep well last night.

6. if its not enough clinical experience do you have any suggestions for what else i can do for this application cycle or the next one that would give me more clinical experience with my scribe background?

Edit:

7. Another question i had is this: is there a way to spin this and say that i got fired but i learned a valuable lesson about professionalism? or is it more wise to just not mention getting fired at all.

like i said, looking back i know did some wrong things, but overall i worked hard being a scribe, manager, and liaison between the physicians, the company, and the scribes so i don't want getting fired to overshadow all the rest of it.

thanks

I'm sorry to hear about you getting fired. 🙁 Everything happens for a reason though, and it may of course be a blessing in disguise. Now you have more time to study for the MCAT. It's more important by far! I'm a non-traditional student and worked two full-time jobs in the corporate world. I'll do my best to answer your questions...

1. Six months of scribing experience is good. Since you need volunteering anyhow, I would go back to volunteering as soon as possible. Hospital volunteering is definitely the way to go. You can't beat a once a week commitment for only a few hours a week. Your primary focus should be your grades and MCAT, not an entry-level clinical job which ADCOMs see over and over again.

2. You do not have to put a reason why you stopped working there. In this case, you should just say that you left so you could focus on school and your MCAT. I often say that volunteering is like Vegas, what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. For most part, it's like this with employment. From what I know, HR can't disclose why you left. They legally can't say you were fired, but there are ways around it. For instance, if you were fired, HR would say you're "not eligible for rehire." Therefore, when you're applying for a new job and they call your former employer, they will ask if you're eligible for rehire. If they are told "no," they will know that you were fired.

Now, medical schools are not employers. If they feel that you lied about an experience or are just randomly checking, they can call and verify their hours. They are not going to ask about performance, because from what I know, the company can't disclose it. So unless the ADCOMs personally know people at that hospital (highly unlikely), they will never know why you left.

Now if you feel that lying about why you left is unethical. You can of course leave it off your AMCAS all-together. There is no such thing as a central database of where people work. Unless there is evidence of you scribing on Facebook, Google, Linkedin, or other sources, the job never technically existed. And by the way, if you leave it on AMCAS, that's as far as it should go. NEVER PUT THIS JOB ON YOUR RESUME AGAIN. It can only hurt you because you don't know how far your future medical employers will go back to verify things.

3. How can it be dishonest? This is what you did for six months. Would it be dishonest if you did it for six years, 16 years, 26 years and then got fired? The number is meaningless. You did it. You're not obligated to volunteer any additional information that won't look good. This is true, and you don't need to elaborate about any bad aspects whatsoever.

4. If you ask the doctors for an LOR, ask them if they will mention you getting fired? If they do not mention it, then it's all Kosher. I definitely wouldn't ask your former supervisor though.

5. All workplaces are different. You can have nice coworkers, and not such nice ones. I worked two full-time jobs before medical school. The first one was a very malignant workplace which I hated terribly. The second was completely different. It sounds like you got the short end of the stick. Don't take it personally, these things happen. Hopefully you'll have better luck in the future.

6. Hospital volunteering. You can't beat the fact that you only do it 3 to 4 hours per week only once a week. I'm sure you were working way more as a scribe. Now you have time to study and maybe have some down time as well. Enjoy it while you can. Remember, you have an entire lifetime as a physician to experience all the amazing things that people are always raving about during entry-level clinical work. Enjoy your life now. There's always time to be a clinician later.

7. Remember, in medical school admissions, people are trying to portray themselves in the best light possible. Blemishes (even those you can learn from) are best swept under the carpet if possible. That's why when someone has committed a misdemeanor, instead of owning up to it and saying what they learned, they work on getting the charge expunged. If these things looked good, then people would purposely put themselves in compromising situations.

Now think about it this way... If you were being hired for a new job, would you want to tell them that your former employer fired you? NO! Of course not! Then why would you tell ADCOMs? You have two options here...

You can either sweep this under the rug entirely. As long as there is no evidence of this job on the internet, then it never existed.

Or, you can keep it on your AMCAS. If ADCOMs decide to verify, they will be asking about hours. No one is going to know about your performance, and since medical schools are not employers, I don't think they will ask if you are eligible for rehire. You don't need to volunteer information that won't look good to you. Do you think other pre-meds are telling ADCOMs about their bad experiences at work? Do you think they are telling ADCOMs how they are glorified janitors as volunteers? No, of course they aren't. You're not lying by omitting these details. You're also protected by law (from what I know) from being found out that you were fired. It's illegal for employers to ask (which is why they do the rehire loophole). If ADCOMs desperately want to know, they will ask if you're eligible for rehire. Otherwise, you're not obligated to tell them. Don't feel bad about it either. You worked a lot for those six months. You should be able to use it.

Can any ADCOMs weigh in on the situation? @LizzyM @Goro @Catalystik @gyngyn

 

[Dr. Biology]

I'm sorry to hear about you getting fired. 🙁 Everything happens for a reason though, and it may of course be a blessing in disguise. Now you have more time to study for the MCAT. It's more important by far! I'm a non-traditional student and worked two full-time jobs in the corporate world. I'll do my best to answer your questions...

1. Six months of scribing experience is good. Since you need volunteering anyhow, I would go back to volunteering as soon as possible. Hospital volunteering is definitely the way to go. You can't beat a once a week commitment for only a few hours a week. Your primary focus should be your grades and MCAT, not an entry-level clinical job which ADCOMs see over and over again.

2. You do not have to put a reason why you stopped working there. In this case, you should just say that you left so you could focus on school and your MCAT. I often say that volunteering is like Vegas, what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. For most part, it's like this with employment. From what I know, HR can't disclose why you left. They legally can't say you were fired, but there are ways around it. For instance, if you were fired, HR would say you're "not eligible for rehire." Therefore, when you're applying for a new job and they call your former employer, they will ask if you're eligible for rehire. If they are told "no," they will know that you were fired.

Now, medical schools are not employers. If they feel that you lied about an experience or are just randomly checking, they can call and verify their hours. They are not going to ask about performance, because from what I know, the company can't disclose it. So unless the ADCOMs personally know people at that hospital (highly unlikely), they will never know why you left.

Now if you feel that lying about why you left is unethical. You can of course leave it off your AMCAS all-together. There is no such thing as a central database of where people work. Unless there is evidence of you scribing on Facebook, Google, Linkedin, or other sources, the job never technically existed. And by the way, if you leave it on AMCAS, that's as far as it should go. NEVER PUT THIS JOB ON YOUR RESUME AGAIN. It can only hurt you because you don't know how far your future medical employers will go back to verify things.

3. How can it be dishonest? This is what you did for six months. Would it be dishonest if you did it for six years, 16 years, 26 years and then got fired? The number is meaningless. You did it. You're not obligated to volunteer any additional information that won't look good. This is true, and you don't need to elaborate about any bad aspects whatsoever.

4. If you ask the doctors for an LOR, ask them if they will mention you getting fired? If they do not mention it, then it's all Kosher. I definitely wouldn't ask your former supervisor though.

5. All workplaces are different. You can have nice coworkers, and not such nice ones. I worked two full-time jobs before medical school. The first one was a very malignant workplace which I hated terribly. The second was completely different. It sounds like you got the short end of the stick. Don't take it personally, these things happen. Hopefully you'll have better luck in the future.

6. Hospital volunteering. You can't beat the fact that you only do it 3 to 4 hours per week only once a week. I'm sure you were working way more as a scribe. Now you have time to study and maybe have some down time as well. Enjoy it while you can. Remember, you have an entire lifetime as a physician to experience all the amazing things that people are always raving about during entry-level clinical work. Enjoy your life now. There's always time to be a clinician later.

7. Remember, in medical school admissions, people are trying to portray themselves in the best light possible. Blemishes (even those you can learn from) are best swept under the carpet if possible. That's why when someone has committed a misdemeanor, instead of owning up to it and saying what they learned, they work on getting the charge expunged. If these things looked good, then people would purposely put themselves in compromising situations.

Now think about it this way... If you were being hired for a new job, would you want to tell them that your former employer fired you? NO! Of course not! Then why would you tell ADCOMs? You have two options here...

You can either sweep this under the rug entirely. As long as there is no evidence of this job on the internet, then it never existed.

Or, you can keep it on your AMCAS. If ADCOMs decide to verify, they will be asking about hours. No one is going to know about your performance, and since medical schools are not employers, I don't think they will ask if you are eligible for rehire. You don't need to volunteer information that won't look good to you. Do you think other pre-meds are telling ADCOMs about their bad experiences at work? Do you think they are telling ADCOMs how they are glorified janitors as volunteers? No, of course they aren't. You're not lying by omitting these details. You're also protected by law (from what I know) from being found out that you were fired. It's illegal for employers to ask (which is why they do the rehire loophole). If ADCOMs desperately want to know, they will ask if you're eligible for rehire. Otherwise, you're not obligated to tell them. Don't feel bad about it either. You worked a lot for those six months. You should be able to use it.

Can any ADCOMs weigh in on the situation? @LizzyM @Goro @Catalystik @gyngyn

Can you do this? I thought you had to list all work experiences in a resume/amcas application? wouldn't this be considered lying on an application?

 

[Espadaleader]

Hey man. You sound like a good guy that made some mistakes. Write it off as a lost completely. Don't put it on your AMCAS. Find something else to do. Anything that you got fired from shouldn't be on your AMCAS. It's too risky and you can't get a letter etc.

 

[Planes2Doc]

Can you do this? I thought you had to list all work experiences in a resume/amcas application? wouldn't this be considered lying on an application?

Job applications also ask you to do this. But there are people who either worked jobs they weren't proud of, or jobs where they got fired and don't want anyone to know. Outside of the academic world, a large gap in employment may be obvious. But when someone is in school, no one would know. This is one of those things where being totally honest will sink you. This is also where people get second chances by omitting the ugly truth. Since there's no central database of work history, it's their call.

 

[Espadaleader]

AMCAS only has fifteen spots. I had many things I left out on my AMCAS because I didn't have space. It's not lying.

 

[Ismet]

also working in the emergency dept was cool but after a few months it became repetitive, the same abd pain, SOB, AMS patients and cases coming in

Welcome to medicine.

1. do you think 6 months as a scribe is enough clinical experience?

It would be better to have more, of course, but 6 months of full-time work is fine.

2. do you have to put on amcas the reason you stopped working there? i don't want to say i got fired, but i don't want to lie either.

You don't have to say why you stopped, but if schools reach out to the contact person listed, you're screwed.

3. is there anything dishonest about saying that i was the leader of this scribe team of 14 scribes for 6 months? i was the leader for 6 months. i guess i just didnt do a great job and was terminated.

It's not dishonest. It was an experience in leadership.

4. is it wrong to email some of the former docs i worked with in the er and ask for LOR? some of them i know liked me and preferred to work with me.

No. Way too risky, especially since you won't know what they're saying about you. Even if they liked you, I'm sure they got wind of what happened and that potentially influenced their opinion of you.

6. if its not enough clinical experience do you have any suggestions for what else i can do for this application cycle or the next one that would give me more clinical experience with my scribe background?

Volunteer. Get another scribe job (preferably where they don't ask you for a recommendation letter from your previous employer).

7. Another question i had is this: is there a way to spin this and say that i got fired but i learned a valuable lesson about professionalism? or is it more wise to just not mention getting fired at all.

Professionalism is a big deal in medical school and medicine in general. You are going to be responsible for people's lives, so your actions and words are going to be under the microscope. I wouldn't mention it.

 

[Espadaleader]

Do not under any circumstances put this job on your application. For God's sake don't mention you're fired. Not putting it on your application is not lying because you are free to choose what 15 experiences to include and most of us have more than 15. If you include it they will either directly or indirectly ask why you left. You don't want to be caught in a flat out lie. Just get another job man.

 

[Planes2Doc]

You don't have to say why you stopped, but if schools reach out to the contact person listed, you're screwed.

Can the scribe company actually tell them about performance? Other than the eligibility for rehire that I mentioned, I thought they couldn't legally speak about the person? 🤔

If this were the case, then wouldn't applicants who had their volunteer hours scrutinized get in trouble if they were honest about their hours, but really bad volunteers?

No. Way too risky, especially since you won't know what they're saying about you. Even if they liked you, I'm sure they got wind of what happened and that potentially influenced their opinion of you.

I like this response much better than what I wrote. It is too risky to ask people associated with the job. 🙁

 

[Ismet]

Can the scribe company actually tell them about performance? Other than the eligibility for rehire that I mentioned, I thought they couldn't legally speak about the person? 🤔

If this were the case, then wouldn't applicants who had their volunteer hours scrutinized get in trouble if they were honest about their hours, but really bad volunteers?

You may be right, I wasn't aware that the contact person wasn't allowed to talk about things other than confirming the hours. My b.

 

[Espadaleader]

There are two rules for AMCAS that should be followed if possible.

1.) Have a LOR from every clinical/research experience
2.) Don't put anything down on your AMCAS where you left on bad terms. You are free to choose your 15 experiences. Find new experiences or don't choose that one at all. For example, I had 4 research experiences. I needed more space for my volunteering and service activities, so I left out the research experience where I didn't have any publications/posters etc.

If you cannot do #1, def do #2.

 

[Planes2Doc]

There are two rules for AMCAS that should be followed if possible.

1.) Have a LOR from every clinical/research experience
2.) Don't put anything down on your AMCAS where you left on bad terms. You are free to choose your 15 experiences. Find new experiences or don't choose that one at all. For example, I had 4 research experiences. I needed more space for my volunteering and service activities, so I left out the research experience where I didn't have any publications/posters etc.

If you cannot do #1, def do #2.

I think that this is the way to go. I would maybe see if you can sit down and talk to one of the physicians you wanted to ask for an LOR. Be honest about the situation, and then see what they say in response. If they promise not to mention it, then perhaps you can use an LOR. If I am correct regarding the legality of mentioning employee performance and termination, then you would be okay. You have nothing to lose by talking to them and seeing what they have to say.

Also, the safest route would be as @Espadaleader says, not mentioning the experience at all. I would definitely not mention it ever again once you get accepted to medical school. As I said earlier, leave it off of your resume/CV. This job never existed. But with the safeguards in place, I think you might be okay as long as you bend the truth regarding why you left.

Leaving things off, as has been mentioned, is not unethical. For instance, if the OP was a stripper, do you think they would mention it? There are lots of strippers that are either trying to get into graduate school, or are paying their way through graduate school. I don't think anyone puts these jobs on their resumes. Also, even though job applications ask to list all employment, I don't think they mention it at all. A job you were fired from should probably be treated the same way as if you were a stripper or porn star.

 

[Boolean]

I think that this is the way to go. I would maybe see if you can sit down and talk to one of the physicians you wanted to ask for an LOR. Be honest about the situation, and then see what they say in response. If they promise not to mention it, then perhaps you can use an LOR. If I am correct regarding the legality of mentioning employee performance and termination, then you would be okay. You have nothing to lose by talking to them and seeing what they have to say.

Also, the safest route would be as @Espadaleader says, not mentioning the experience at all. I would definitely not mention it ever again once you get accepted to medical school. As I said earlier, leave it off of your resume/CV. This job never existed. But with the safeguards in place, I think you might be okay as long as you bend the truth regarding why you left.

Leaving things off, as has been mentioned, is not unethical. For instance, if the OP was a stripper, do you think they would mention it? There are lots of strippers that are either trying to get into graduate school, or are paying their way through graduate school. I don't think anyone puts these jobs on their resumes. Also, even though job applications ask to list all employment, I don't think they mention it at all. A job you were fired from should probably be treated the same way as if you were a stripper or porn star.

This is the most important part. Do not lie. Be very very careful about how you go about doing this.

 

[petyr_baelish]

Is it the medical school that calls to verify or is it AMCAS?

If AMCAS just calls to verify this job, it wouldn't matter if the person on the other end breaks laws and says that the OP was fired. On the other hand, if it is the medical schools that call to verify these things I would be more wary about listing this job at all. While there are laws, you never know when someone will just say some bad stuff unsolicited. It's risky.

 

[PortlandSurgeon]

thanks for your feedback i see now that what i did was absolutely not professional in any way. i already asked a physician who only moonlights at the ed i got fired from if he would write me an lor and be my reference. he said he'd be happy to help. when i send him an email with my resume i'll explain that i got fired, if he doesn't already know, and ask if he's ok to not say anything bad about me then i would really appreciate an lor.

You have more than enough clinical experience at this point. You will want to include this activity on your AMCAS, but you do not have to say that you were fired. You will have to include a reference, so try to pick someone who will only have positive things to say. A six month stint on a paid job might raise some eyebrows, so don't be surprised if your reference gets a phone call or email asking why it lasted only six months. A LOR from a physician who will only say nice things in the letter would also be preferred.

Hopefully in your next stint you will do a better job of separating work and personal life. This is an example of professionalism. What you say and do off the clock is not mutually exclusive to how people will perceive you on the job - especially if you are in a position of leadership like you were in this case.

 

[PortlandSurgeon]

thanks, i think i'll put it on my amcas and explain to one physician that i made some dumb mistakes and if he is still ok to write me a letter that would be great.

 

[Boolean]

thanks for your feedback i see now that what i did was absolutely not professional in any way. i already asked a physician who only moonlights at the ed i got fired from if he would write me an lor and be my reference. he said he'd be happy to help. when i send him an email with my resume i'll explain that i got fired, if he doesn't already know, and ask if he's ok to not say anything bad about me then i would really appreciate an lor.

Dunno if you want to mention the firing on this one, to be honest... I don't think this could be done very well over email, but obviously showing your face there may not be the best option.

 

[Ismet]

Is it the medical school that calls to verify or is it AMCAS?

If AMCAS just calls to verify this job, it wouldn't matter if the person on the other end breaks laws and says that the OP was fired. On the other hand, if it is the medical schools that call to verify these things I would be more wary about listing this job at all. While there are laws, you never know when someone will just say some bad stuff unsolicited. It's risky.

The medical school can call to verify. All AMCAS does is verify your courses with your transcript.

 

[PortlandSurgeon]

Agreeing with @darkjedi on this one. The poor professional skills is something you really need to look out for. When you are representing a company as you were, you should be imagining that a camera is on you at all times. If you do something that reflects badly upon them, they won't take nicely to it.

i know i feel like an idiot now. thanks. if nothing else i learned this.

 

[Boolean]

i know i feel like an idiot now. thanks. if nothing else i learned this.

Hey, you learned. You screwed up, now you can make up for it. I'm pretty certain you know that you will never make a mistake like this again, as you've seen the situation it has placed you in. Look forward to the future and just remember to watch what you say. Hoping for the best 🙂

 

[PortlandSurgeon]

My vote? All of the above.

Yes, it would have been nice to get a warning first. On the other hand, your comments were sexist and unprofessional, and while you can filter your 'words', the attitudes your words implied are troublesome. As team leader, you were representing the scribe company, and in that capacity, you failed. Your employer - the Scribe company - cares about keeping their client (the Hospital) happy, and taking swift, decisive action (firing you) does that.

Learn what you can from this, and find more professional ways to communicate --

tbh i tried to joke around to be liked. i figured if i can make people laugh they will like me as a leader. i never thought of myself as sexist but again after looking at these messages in a new light i can see how that might be interpreted that way. its weird, i dont think im sexist so it hurts that people including you see it that way so i have some introspection to do.

btw, the 'grow a pair' comment was an in-joke. once that particular female scribe and i were working in the same provider room. one of the physicians asked if i was excited to go in with him while he did a rectal exam on a 93 y/o woman. i was less than excited and he said to 'grow a pair,' which everyone laughed at. like two days later is when i told the female scribe to grow a pair, referencing that joke from 2 days before. clearly it did not come off well then or now.

 

[AticusHolmes]

Learn from it and move on. I'm not going to slam you beyond that you recognize you said/ did some really stupid things and paid the price for it. I'd be careful to make sure that if a school tracks down your contact that they are not going to find out that you were fired. If you have a friend or person that will only say good things about you, then yes go for it, otherwise, I'd be careful. If I was on an admissions council and heard even half of what you wrote about, your application would be in the trash. Doctors who led medical teams can't be doing that kind of stuff. Like I said, learn from it and move on. Better to learn this lesson now than down the road when it could have real consequences.

 

[VolunteerMoose]

you are michael scott from the office. dont change who you are.

 

[PortlandSurgeon]

I definitely think it was justified. The major problem was your poor leadership skills which was already mentioned. I have been a manager/supervisor before and I made it a strict rule to never fraternize with those I was managing. Why? Because you are not supposed to be their friend, you are supposed to be their leader and exclude yourself from getting too close on that level. I never got to know them on a friends basis and therefore didn't feel I needed to make "raunchy" comments or half ass my work or excuse their performance.

Additionally you shot yourself in the foot with this one. Many people would've killed for that awesome leadership/clinical opportunity and you blew it. You might have been able to save yourself if you wouldn't have lied but it sounds like the firing was a long time in the making. Learn from your mistake and realize those comments are not appropriate to coworkers-even late nights at the bar.

we all started at the same time and we were friends first before i became the leader. clearly not as good friends as i thought. obv your right that i screwed up alot here. i guess i will still put this on my amcas and try to talk up the positive aspects. btw, i really don't think i lied, i had no intention to lie. later after i looked up the text message threads i emailed the vp of hr and said 'look i was wrong i did say things similar to what you accused me of.' she interpreted that as me lying, but like i said these were comments that i didn't give a second thought to after months. if im ever a leader again i will remember im not their friend, as bad as that sounds...

 

[PortlandSurgeon]

Hey man. You sound like a good guy that made some mistakes. Write it off as a lost completely. Don't put it on your AMCAS. Find something else to do. Anything that you got fired from shouldn't be on your AMCAS. It's too risky and you can't get a letter etc.

thanks man i appreciate that and needed to hear it. i am torn about putting it on my amcas. it seems some people vote yes some vote no. the problem is that its my only clinical experience and i did some cool things like watching level 1 trauma arrests and people coding in the ct scanner and some docs even let me 'glove up' to take part in procedures like hip reductions. that kind of experience was awesome and re-enforces my wish to be a doctor. i don't know how i can leave that out of my application completely you know?

 

[Microglia]

we all started at the same time and we were friends first before i became the leader. clearly not as good friends as i thought. obv your right that i screwed up alot here. i guess i will still put this on my amcas and try to talk up the positive aspects. btw, i really don't think i lied, i had no intention to lie. later after i looked up the text message threads i emailed the vp of hr and said 'look i was wrong i did say things similar to what you accused me of.' she interpreted that as me lying, but like i said these were comments that i didn't give a second thought to after months. if im ever a leader again i will remember im not their friend, as bad as that sounds...

On the plus side, you have learned from the experience how not to lead. This is something that most surgeons (assuming you're interested in surg specialties by name) and doctors in general don't get the chance to learn, and at their level, you're only fired if you do something far worse than speak unprofessionally. Hopefully this experience will lead to you being a better doc and having a more wholesome career. Best of luck OP.

 

[PortlandSurgeon]

thanks for your post. your saying that i should list it but have no reference for it in case their contacted and say i got fired? what if i have a reference and letter writer who is empathetic to my situation. there was one doc there who moonlighted at this ed an works mainly at another hospital. he said he would be happy to write me a letter. i think i was going to email him and let him know that i was terminated and if he'd still be ok with it if he could write me a letter. do you think that sounds ok? or would you suggest that i just list it on amcas and have no lor from it? thanks again

Welcome to medicine.



It would be better to have more, of course, but 6 months of full-time work is fine.



You don't have to say why you stopped, but if schools reach out to the contact person listed, you're screwed.



It's not dishonest. It was an experience in leadership.



No. Way too risky, especially since you won't know what they're saying about you. Even if they liked you, I'm sure they got wind of what happened and that potentially influenced their opinion of you.



Volunteer. Get another scribe job (preferably where they don't ask you for a recommendation letter from your previous employer).



Professionalism is a big deal in medical school and medicine in general. You are going to be responsible for people's lives, so your actions and words are going to be under the microscope. I wouldn't mention it.

 

[SN12357]

tbh i tried to joke around to be liked. i figured if i can make people laugh they will like me as a leader.

As you learned, this is not how leadership works. Leaders cannot and should not care primarily whether they are liked. Respect needs to come first, and liking is often optional. At least you learned this before medical school.

I'd say get a letter if this is going to be your main clinical experience AND you can trust that the letter will be positive, but I'd actually try to meet with the letter writer in person or at minimum on the phone to discuss it. You've put yourself in too risky a position to conduct these discussions over email. You need a better gauge of their true opinion of you.

 

[Mt Kilimanjaro]

Just curious: did you redact part of vagina or did the forum do that? Confused because that's not a bad word...

Anyway, you obviously didn't give us the whole story, but I don't see anything egregious in what you wrote. You showed poor leadership by not telling the whole truth and by being a hypocrite with regards to showing up on time, but if someone is premed and bristles at a comment like "grow a pair" or speculation why someone doesn't like you, I can't wait to see what they think about their surgery or OB/GYN clerkship. Your colleagues showed themselves to be tattle tales. If everything said at happy hour/outside of work was reported to upper management, nobody would keep their job anywhere.

Unless you show your cards on the application, they chances that anybody calls your contact for the scribe company are pretty low, so I think you can safely report and just omit the circumstances under which you left.

 

[grizdad]

BTW, is vagina a dirty word? You might want to get used to saying it if you are going be a doctor. Probably about half your patients will have one.
.

It is all in the context. Dirty? Maybe not. Inappropriate in the cited example? Yes.

 

[Mt Kilimanjaro]

It is all in the contest.

Someone watches the Kardashians...

 

[grizdad]

Hard to tell how it would have gone for you if you would have fessed up but you acted unprofessional in a supervisory position and then lied about it. The type of things you said, even you felt they were only in jest, were not only inappropriate, they would open the employer up to harassment claims by the other scribes. By lying about it, you gave them the perfect reason to fire you if they were on the fence about it.

 

[grizdad]

Someone watches the Kardashians...

lol. Damn autocorrect!

 

[terp720]

thanks for your post. your saying that i should list it but have no reference for it in case their contacted and say i got fired? what if i have a reference and letter writer who is empathetic to my situation. there was one doc there who moonlighted at this ed an works mainly at another hospital. he said he would be happy to write me a letter. i think i was going to email him and let him know that i was terminated and if he'd still be ok with it if he could write me a letter. do you think that sounds ok? or would you suggest that i just list it on amcas and have no lor from it? thanks again

you're required to fill in a reference for every EC you list on you application. whether you have a LOR is a different thing..

 

[xffan624]

It is all in the context. Dirty? Maybe not. Inappropriate in the cited example? Yes.

Yes, the comment was not appropriate. I was just confused by the OP's use of asterisks to prevent spelling it out. I'm pretty sure the forum doesn't censor it automatically, as I typed the word "Vagina" without any problem. Just my comment that not even being able type out the word seemed to display a definite lack of maturity. I mean it's not a dirty word. It's the appropriate way of describing female genitalia.

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

Just curious: did you redact part of vagina or did the forum do that? Confused because that's not a bad word...

Anyway, you obviously didn't give us the whole story, but I don't see anything egregious in what you wrote. You showed poor leadership by not telling the whole truth and by being a hypocrite with regards to showing up on time, but if someone is premed and bristles at a comment like "grow a pair" or speculation why someone doesn't like you, I can't wait to see what they think about their surgery or OB/GYN clerkship. Your colleagues showed themselves to be tattle tales. If everything said at happy hour/outside of work was reported to upper management, nobody would keep their job anywhere.

Unless you show your cards on the application, they chances that anybody calls your contact for the scribe company are pretty low, so I think you can safely report and just omit the circumstances under which you left.

Lol. This happens ALL THE TIME.
Happy hour with coworkers is not the best time/place for letting loose.

 

[ThisCouldBeYou]

I kinda feel badly for you. Your behavior simply doesn't come off as a leader of 14 other full time scribes. It's too bad that you were given this role because it sure sounds like you were not ready. I guess you have to realize that as a leader, you have to do everything right and proper. You have to get to work on time, especially if you're expecting others to do the same. Being the leader doesn't mean you get a 'free pass' on being a good employee.

You asked if it makes sense to look for another scribe job. No! Although you have the experience, you got a bad review and that will kill any future chance to be a scribe elsewhere. Sure, no one gave you a negative for actual your scribing work, but still, you were fired. Besides, it doesn't sound like you enjoyed it that much anyway. In fact, if you can find another option, you'll have a better story to tell to explain why you left.

 

[bakedbeans18]

For someone about 1 year out of undergrad, I would expect more maturity and tact in how you handled situations, rather than saying things like "Grow a pair" or "....they're upset because I don't have a *** " You were a co-worker, not a friend. Even if you have amicable relationships with people in your work setting, they are still your co-workers first, and your friends second. You should carry yourself in your interactions thusly. Chalk it up to experience, grow from it, and move on. I would not put this on your AMCAS application, because it may come out that you got fired, as contact information from a supervisor, rather than a peer (e.g., a physician who knew you from your time there as a scribe) is more favored by an admissions committee.

 

[Mornhavon]

.

 

[bakedbeans18]

Lol. This is why women shouldn't be allowed in the workforce.

 

[mehc012]

Lol. This is why women shouldn't be allowed in the workforce.

I've always thought it was a worse thing to say to a dude, personally.
The point, though, isn't who OP said it to, it's that they clearly have no social or professional sense.

OP, you can be a stickler or not (regarding tardiness, etc), but you can't be a hypocrite and not expect backlash.

 

[Mad Jack]

Just going to echo what everyone else here was saying. You were in a position of leadership and failed to be a good leader and lacked key professional skills. A key part of leadership is leading by example, which you completely failed to do on many levels. Your firing was completely just, because if it had not happened, they other scribes would have taken home that your behavior was acceptable to the institution and they could act in a similar manner and only get a warning. With so many people against you, the problem is pretty clear. People are very reluctant to complain about superiors for fear of it resulting in trouble for themselves, and because throwing someone under the bus is a very hard thing to do unless they are quite bad at their job or you really dislike them. If that many people spoke out against you, you must have been more than a little lacking in the leadership department.

 

[xffan624]

Lol. This is why women shouldn't be allowed in the workforce.

I hope you're joking. If not, I question your maturity to enter the medical field. More than half your colleagues will likely be women. You might want think about pursuing a more male dominated field than healthcare, like logging or those deadliest catch guys. I'm sure they would accept that attitude there.