jayman

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Hey everyone. Just pre-matched at University of Pittsburgh! Wooohoooooo! :D :D Good luck to everyone in the match. Hope to see some of you here in Pittsburgh this summer.

*Will move to "2007 Match Results" thread*
 
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deleted113029

Hey everyone. Just pre-matched at University of Pittsburgh! Wooohoooooo! :D :D Good luck to everyone in the match. Hope to see some of you here in Pittsburgh this summer.

NIIIIICE! Our first match of the season! :thumbup: (i wish there were a beer smilie icon.)
 
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LADoc00

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are we happy about that??
 

BELPATH

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LA Doc: What's your problem man....this is a good program!!
 

mlw03

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LA Doc: What's your problem man....this is a good program!!

i'm with you belpath - i don't see why LaDoc is ragging on Pitt. seems like a solid program associated with a very strong medical center serving a nice chunk of land in western PA and easter OH. congrats, jayman, on a successful application.
 

TangataManu

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You guys don't get it. He's upset because the guy is a foreign grad, otherwise he wouldn't be able to be offered a "prematch" position. Just look at all this dingus's previous xenophobic comments and you'll see what I'm talking about. Very sad.
 

djmd

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You guys don't get it. He's upset because the guy is a foreign grad, otherwise he wouldn't be able to be offered a "prematch" position. Just look at all this dingus's previous xenophobic comments and you'll see what I'm talking about. Very sad.

Jay is not a FMG (IMG) or rather he doesn't have to be.
And therefor your comment is inacurate.


Pitt is an decent program not a superstar one..
 
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b&ierstiefel

I nominate LADoc00 to moderate this forum. He's knowledgable about the field, shares practical information, but most importantly tells it like it is. I really dislike all the sugarcoating PC crap that goes on here. And he's anonymous enough where he can say whatever he want without any professional repercussions.

Oh wait...that's not what a moderator does. A moderator settles conflicts and is supposed to be PC and sugarcoat things. OK nevermind...I nominate LADoc00 to be SDN Path emperor.
 

TangataManu

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My understanding is that "prematches", or outside-the-match positions, cannot be offered to US grads, unless rules have changed. As far as LaDoc having made several very xenophobic, rude, and offensive comments in this forum, it is obviously true, you can check it yourself. Having said that, I agree that many of his comments are informative and useful to us, and I read them myself. The only problem is that I read some of his comments with a little skepticism, depending on what he's talking about, because he's so biased against foreigners, which I find quite sad.
 
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b&ierstiefel

My understanding is that "prematches", or outside-the-match positions, cannot be offered to US grads, unless rules have changed. As far as LaDoc having made several very xenophobic, rude, and offensive comments in this forum, it is obviously true, you can check it yourself. Having said that, I agree that many of his comments are informative and useful to us, and I read them myself. The only problem is that I read some of his comments with a little skepticism, depending on what he's talking about, because he's so biased against foreigners, which I find quite sad.

For the most part, prematches cannot be granted to US grads. However, there are a few exceptions (mentioned in another thread recently)...one of them is if you graduated from med school quite some time ago (what was the threshhold again? was it 6 mo?). So apparently, applying through ERAS does not necessitate having to go through The Match to secure a residency position.

As for LADoc00's comments...I've been around long enough to have seen his posts. I was around when he first started posting as a little baby LADoc00. You're entitled to be offended.
 

yaah

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Personally, I dislike the whole prematch thing intensely, just like I dislike the fellowship timeline process. If someone is good enough to prematch, they should be good enough to match. And I don't see why there should be a separate set of rules for different categories of applicant - every resident ends up doing the same thing at the program, you are not prematching into some separate program with different qualifications and different job descriptions.

The way I see it, programs only offer someone a spot outside of the match because they are worried they will go somewhere else (otherwise, they wouldn't get worried and could just rank them highly). Interested applicants cannot realistically turn down a prematch offer, because if they decline does it mean they aren't interested? Do they then drop down the rankings? It's inappropriate.
 
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djmd

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My understanding is that "prematches", or outside-the-match positions, cannot be offered to US grads, unless rules have changed.

Prematches can not be offered to graduating US grads. Jay has already said that he is PGY1 categorical Surgery intern/resident.
 

LADoc00

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i'm with you belpath - i don't see why LaDoc is ragging on Pitt. seems like a solid program associated with a very strong medical center serving a nice chunk of land in western PA and easter OH. congrats, jayman, on a successful application.

I didnt mean anything other than was the OP happy with his match (ie was that his/her top choice or what)...I wasnt implying anything, I have no clue about UPitt. Im harsh and Eric Cartman-like at times, but wasnt intending to be so here.
 

jayman

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Hey LADoc00 - I assumed your comment was positive when I read it. :thumbup: But I appreciate you clearing up the confusion, especially since you didn't have to. And thanks to all who defended me anyways! :thumbup:

For the record: I was born, raised, and went to med school here in the good ol' USA...not that there's anything wrong with that :laugh:. I contacted the PD at Pitt last semester and explained my situation to him. After looking over my CV, he asked me to interview with the Department on one of their interview days. Pitt was my first choice and, clearly, if there was a chance I could come here without going through the crap of ERAS, interviewing, rank-listing, etc, I would do it. After submitting an updated CV and my old ERAS documents, interviewing with the program, and having my current PD write a letter on my behalf, I was extended an offer to join some weeks later.

That's the whole story, and I'm extremely happy with the outcome. And while I understand Yaah's point about going through the Match, the rules are the rules: NON-U.S. seniors are not bound by the regulations of the Match. I'm not certain if that necessarily helped me, though - there are a lot of smart folks applying for path this year, and I'm certain that applicants taken outside of the Match are compared against the applicants going through the Match. Sacrificing a match spot early for a person with lower board scores, worse grades, poorer recs, and a crappy attitude doesn't seem like a smart move. It just makes sense from a program's point-of-view that the people taken outside the Match are comparable to the people taken through the Match, and that everyone (regardless of how they entered a program) should still be a good fit for that program.

Good luck on the Ides of March everyone.
 

Vaderize

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Thanks for the info.

The reason I was so interested is that I am actually a PGY-4 who is looking to go back and do path.

On one of my interviews, I was told by a PD not to take a prematch, because I would fare better in the match. That individual felt that prematches were a programs way of having to avoid the scramble.

2 weeks from thursday.....
 

yaah

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On one of my interviews, I was told by a PD not to take a prematch, because I would fare better in the match. That individual felt that prematches were a programs way of having to avoid the scramble.

Yeah, that was part of my point. But what happens if a program that you like (maybe not your #1, but your #2 or 3) offers you a spot outside the match? Do you take it? Do you decline it and say you are going through the match? If you do that, does the program then push you farther down their rank list because you might be less likely to come there?

I don't know, I just don't like it. I can see why candidates who this option applies to can think it is a good system, but it really isn't except in the situation where your #1 program (truly your #1 program, not a matter of deluding yourself into making it your #1 after you hear back) offers it to you. And if this is truly the case, you likely would match there anyway. I understand the utility of it in situations like Jaymans where going on interviews, etc, during a year of residency is a major burden, but even so I don't think there should be separate rules.

If the match is going to exist, it should exist for everyone in the same form. Making exceptions for certain situations and circumstances creates a large gray area. If you are going to do it for some people why not do it for everyone?
 

LADoc00

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You guys don't get it. He's upset because the guy is a foreign grad, otherwise he wouldn't be able to be offered a "prematch" position. Just look at all this dingus's previous xenophobic comments and you'll see what I'm talking about. Very sad.

??
Huh
Nice ad hominem you fooking douchebag.
can I get Mod input on this quote please?
 

kingkong

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I think DO's can accept prematches. I know a couple of DO's who have accepted prematch positions. I did not know this but I recently checked the no of seats UT southwestern has for match and it showed 7, whereas during the interviews they said they had 8 positioins, I found out that they have given one path position to a DO. I was under the impression that only programs that routinely remained unfilled in the match gave out prematches.......so it was surprising that
UT is giving out prematches..........maybe I should have asked for a spot during the interview.
 

djmd

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I think DO's can accept prematches....

I think that might only be true if they did a clinical internship, and hence would not be MSIVs but rather PGYs. And would not be bound by the match.
 

srlacy

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Hey guys-


I'm an osteopathic MSIV, and it is true that osteopathic applicants can accept prematch offers. I was actually offered a spot (from a program that hasn't filled for the past couple of years), and I declined. I do not believe that you have to fulfill the required clinical internship; it is only for those five remaining states that require it: Michigan, Florida, Pennsylvania, Oklahoma...and I forget the other state. (And, from what I have heard, you can appeal your lack of internship in those states because there are no osteopathic path residencies). And, I have also heard rumors that starting next year, the "required internship" for at least those states will no longer be a problem, and it will no longer be required.
 

djmd

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Hey guys-


I'm an osteopathic MSIV, and it is true that osteopathic applicants can accept prematch offers. .... I have also heard rumors that starting next year, the "required internship" for at least those states will no longer be a problem, and it will no longer be required.

That is good news for the DOs. And I stand corrected re: DOs and the Match
 
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Vaderize

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Yeah, that was part of my point. But what happens if a program that you like (maybe not your #1, but your #2 or 3) offers you a spot outside the match? Do you take it? Do you decline it and say you are going through the match? If you do that, does the program then push you farther down their rank list because you might be less likely to come there?

I don't know, I just don't like it. I can see why candidates who this option applies to can think it is a good system, but it really isn't except in the situation where your #1 program (truly your #1 program, not a matter of deluding yourself into making it your #1 after you hear back) offers it to you. And if this is truly the case, you likely would match there anyway. I understand the utility of it in situations like Jaymans where going on interviews, etc, during a year of residency is a major burden, but even so I don't think there should be separate rules.

If the match is going to exist, it should exist for everyone in the same form. Making exceptions for certain situations and circumstances creates a large gray area. If you are going to do it for some people why not do it for everyone?

And herein lies the dilemma.

I'm really hoping to match, but the Match itself favors MSIV's....as it should. The point of graduating med school is to get a residency. Someone like myself, who left a program and is now working as a hospitalist, may be seen as a "red flag"; indeed, I have been flat out told that I am at a disadvantage, being 4 years out. I think this may only be true for pathology, as I know people change in IM and FP all the time. But even with the full support of my former PD and the department as a whole, the most important factor in my getting interviews this year has been a) where I went to medical school and b) my board scores.

You'd think that prior clinical experience would give one a "leg up", but it's not as much as I thought, which came as a surprise. The advice I got was to go through ERAS; I don't know what opportunities might had arisen if I had looked outside the match.
 

mmed

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Yeah, that was part of my point. But what happens if a program that you like (maybe not your #1, but your #2 or 3) offers you a spot outside the match? Do you take it? Do you decline it and say you are going through the match? If you do that, does the program then push you farther down their rank list because you might be less likely to come there?

I don't know, I just don't like it. I can see why candidates who this option applies to can think it is a good system, but it really isn't except in the situation where your #1 program (truly your #1 program, not a matter of deluding yourself into making it your #1 after you hear back) offers it to you. And if this is truly the case, you likely would match there anyway. I understand the utility of it in situations like Jaymans where going on interviews, etc, during a year of residency is a major burden, but even so I don't think there should be separate rules.

If the match is going to exist, it should exist for everyone in the same form. Making exceptions for certain situations and circumstances creates a large gray area. If you are going to do it for some people why not do it for everyone?

Pre-match under no circumstances is unfair to the candidate and all others. Almost impossible to be from your#, and being an IMG or other you will be in bad situation if you accept or not. Others going to apply to a program b/c he has 8 spots for example, then realize that only 2-3 spots in the quota, may be 0 like Albany last year. Match is free game and should remain with equal opportunity to all applicants.
 
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deleted113029

Pre-match under no circumstances is unfair to the candidate and all others. Almost impossible to be from your#, and being an IMG or other you will be in bad situation if you accept or not. Others going to apply to a program b/c he has 8 spots for example, then realize that only 2-3 spots in the quota, may be 0 like Albany last year. Match is free game and should remain with equal opportunity to all applicants.

i'm doing my best to understand you, but it's difficult. The only thing i understand is your last comment, which unfortunately is in discord with your first comment. :confused:
 
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deleted113029

I think they were concordant - he (assumedly) meant that under no circumstances is the prematch fair to anyone. I agree with that - occasionally it works out for all involved, however, but that doesn't mean it's a good system. Like the fellowships.

:p i know what he was talking about.;)

does Michigan play by the rules for path fellowships? :)
 
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b&ierstiefel

:p i know what he was talking about.;)

does Michigan play by the rules for path fellowships? :)

hehe...i don't think anybody really plays by the rules....why? Cuz there AREN'T any hard and fast rules to even abide by. I can imagine that Michigan is no different...if they have good candidates to fill internally, they will. If a fellowship is likely to go unfilled, then they can open things up for outsiders who happen to apply.
 

yaah

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I think Michigan at least tries. They tried this year to have all the fellowships on a similar timeline (applications due by Dec 31st, 18 months prior to start date, with interviews offered and given in the next couple of months, offers starting whenever they are completed; more competitive fellowships i.e. derm first, then others). But it hasn't worked that great for some of the fellowships because things still ultimately are controlled by the individual PD and "things happen," whether those things are an internal candidate who decides to apply last minute, or decides to do something else last minute, or stellar outside people who apply, or whatever you can think of.

To give you an example, I have heard this year of another program who filled a certain spot in about may or june, OVER THREE YEARS ahead of time. And then there was one fellowship in our program which is a great program and always fills that was still interviewing people 9-10 months ahead of the start date. And if you look on pathology outlines you will still see positions advertised for 2007.
 
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b&ierstiefel

I think Michigan at least tries. They tried this year to have all the fellowships on a similar timeline (applications due by Dec 31st, 18 months prior to start date, with interviews offered and given in the next couple of months, offers starting whenever they are completed; more competitive fellowships i.e. derm first, then others). But it hasn't worked that great for some of the fellowships because things still ultimately are controlled by the individual PD and "things happen," whether those things are an internal candidate who decides to apply last minute, or decides to do something else last minute, or stellar outside people who apply, or whatever you can think of.

To give you an example, I have heard this year of another program who filled a certain spot in about may or june, OVER THREE YEARS ahead of time. And then there was one fellowship in our program which is a great program and always fills that was still interviewing people 9-10 months ahead of the start date. And if you look on pathology outlines you will still see positions advertised for 2007.
Wow 3 years??? Actually, I have heard about a certain fellowship program in a certain Boston hospital that has done the same. Not the norm, but yeah, it happens...and that's scary. (I kinda alluded to this in a previous post in another thread).

See...here, we adhere to a timeline but for some fellowships it basically means that a set # months in advance to the start date, an email goes out to the residents within our program...basically the email states, "Is anyone interested?" or "we would like to know who is interested from within the program before opening things up to outside candidates." Now, in line with a comment you made earlier yaah...this can force people to make hasty decisions that they may regret. This implies some kind of "take it or leave it" or "take it now or forever hold your peace" kind of offer. And what if someone wants to back out?
 

Aubrey

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Wow 3 years??? Actually, I have heard about a certain fellowship program in a certain Boston hospital that has done the same. Not the norm, but yeah, it happens...and that's scary. (I kinda alluded to this in a previous post in another thread).

See...here, we adhere to a timeline but for some fellowships it basically means that a set # months in advance to the start date, an email goes out to the residents within our program...basically the email states, "Is anyone interested?" or "we would like to know who is interested from within the program before opening things up to outside candidates." Now, in line with a comment you made earlier yaah...this can force people to make hasty decisions that they may regret. This implies some kind of "take it or leave it" or "take it now or forever hold your peace" kind of offer. And what if someone wants to back out?


I think your last point is especially important.. there is to my knowledge no real standard contract for fellows, and programs can be left in the lurch if someone drops a promised fellowship spot, for whatever reason.

The ad hoc approach may have worked well in the past when many fewer of us were doing fellowships in the first place, but some degree of standardization is needed now that almost all of us are/will be. Who knows, maybe the association of pathology chairs will come up with something in, say, 10 years? :laugh:
 

yaah

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The concept of "backing out" I think is a tough one. A lot of times people will apply to two types of fellowship, using one as a "backup." And while no fellowship director really wants to be considered as a backup, it is going to happen. Personally, I think it's inappropriate to back out of a fellowship without a compelling reason. And "I want to do this instead" isn't really a compelling reason, unfortunately. What if your dream is to do hemepath and you get a few interviews but no acceptances, so you take a surg path fellowship and hope to reapply again. But then you get a late hemepath acceptance. What do you do? I think at that point you can have a serious conversation with the surg path fellowship director and state your preference, but you shouldn't just back out without this discussion happening. You can also be up front from the start, but is that going to decrease the likelihood they accept you in the first place? A very important question. I bet a lot of people lie.

But I agree with the above that the current system doesn't fit the current times. Fellowships these days are not really just a way to explore a field of greater interest - they are a way to increase your "marketability" and job finding abilities. In that sense it means that more people will be applying who wouldn't have in the past. You get people applying for certain fellowships who aren't necessarily interested in that field for what it provides, other than a lifestyle/financial/career building exercise.

IMHO, the elimination of the 5th year was probably a mistake. It works out well for some, but for the most part the majority of residents want some sort of fellowship, whether it is surg path or whatever, and programs don't really have to provide anything (nor can they in many cases, because the funding won't be there). Programs that want to have a surg path fellowship basically have to fund it themselves. And if jobs require or recommend at least some extra training, how do you get it?

I am curious as to whether people coming out and not doing fellowships are getting decent jobs. At this program we have so many fellowships that people can generally find one, even if it isn't one of their top choices.
 
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b&ierstiefel

But I agree with the above that the current system doesn't fit the current times. Fellowships these days are not really just a way to explore a field of greater interest - they are a way to increase your "marketability" and job finding abilities. In that sense it means that more people will be applying who wouldn't have in the past.
I wholeheartedly agree. Another indirect testament to how the job market in pathology is not necessarily peachy. I've harped about this years ago in the MD/PhD thread...there is this increased perception that one must boost one's credentials to outcompete others for jobs and get more benefits (e.g., lifestyle!). It's called credential inflation. The elimination of the 5th year in pathology, the not so great job market, the desire to "cash in", the tanking in research funding, and the insecurity associated with doing minimal training is leading to more and more folks pursuing fellowships, especially those in boarded subspecialties. Take CP for instance too...many people do CP because it is perceived as some "requisite" for private practice (which is an attractive option cuz it makes you a ton of bank compared to academics), not because they're particularly interested in watching machines bleep, watching colonies grow on agar plates, and giving clinicians permission to have blood products.
 

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And, I have also heard rumors that starting next year, the "required internship" for at least those states will no longer be a problem, and it will no longer be required.

I know the AOA is revising the whole linked/tracked/unlinked internship thing, but the 5 states that require the ROI is state mandated and the AOA does not have much say into that. These 5 states I believe have separate licensing boards for DOs and MDs. I believe the internship is a waste of time for path and is a financial burden in terms of extra interset on loans that DOs unfortunately must accept to become licensed in those 5 states. If it were possible for the allopathic state boards in these 5 states to grant licensure to DO pathologists then this would not be an issue. Pathology is unique in that there are no DO path residencies. My feeling is that if they cannot provide any residency spots then they should not hold you to the internship requirements.

Nothing sucks more than wanting to be a pathologist and having to complete an entire year of rotations in specialties that you loathe. Plus you have to then be able to get elective time to do aways in path, apply, and match all while enduring the tortures of an internship year.
 
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