Just wanted to stir up some thoughts, "Why dentistry Sucks."

[thenextcarnegie]

Hey guys!

So my dental mentor (he is a doctor I currently work for) showed me this blog post. He wanted me to see "another" side of dentistry and how a certain population feels about dentistry. I'd like to see your guys' thoughts on the matter. I would encourage you to read the post itself along with the 78 comments that follow. Nonetheless, it shows that if you are doing this for the wrong reasons, you will definitely burn out. I know negative attracts negative, and vice versa. However, read it and share your thoughts, please! I look forward to seeing what you have to say, especially those that are already dentists!

Link: Dentistry Sucks

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[Nephalem]

Some of this is out dated information. Guess what nothing is easy in life if you want to get somewhere worthwhile. Yea there are some bad aspects such as debt but there are many great aspects as well.

 

[ProspectivePostPreDent]

As someone who has worked in blue collar, back-breaking, bottom of the totem pole, OSHA making you wear silly orange clown suits, bosses treating you like a dog type of jobs, I can never do anything but shake my head when people in health care sit around and bitch about certain things.

The people who did the straight and narrow school path (hs->ug->grad->work) and only have white collar types in their family are often bewildered that someone wouldn't take their complaints seriously.

Aww - you have to see gross body parts? Mid level providers are forming political lobbies? Have to buy your Mercedes used?

Absolutely heart-breaking. I'll put you on a poster next to the starving Ethiopian children.

 

[thenextcarnegie]

As someone who has worked in blue-collar, back-breaking, bottom of the totem pole, OSHA making you wear silly orange clown suits, bosses treating you like a dog type of jobs, I can never do anything but shake my head when people in health care sit around and bitch about certain things.

The people who did the straight and narrow school path (hs->ug->grad->work) and only have white-collar types in their family are often bewildered that someone wouldn't take their complaints seriously.

Aww - you have to see gross body parts? Mid-level providers are forming political lobbies? Have to buy your Mercedes used?

Absolutely heart-breaking. I'll put you on a poster next to the starving Ethiopian children.

I really love this. Well said.

 

[Stanelz]

Why dentistry sucks? Insurance companies.

 

[8_man]

if we dont, the patient will choke

 

[2TH MVR]

Lets just say that dentistry is evolving and is more challenging today then it was pre-recession. There is over-saturation. Case in point. In my city on just about every intersection ... there will be dentists on each corner. One corporate. One "General Dentistry .... and Orthodontics". And 2-3 three private practices. Just about every corner. 10 years ago ... I was the only ortho and a few GP offices on this particular city corner within a 2-3 mile circle. Now there is at least 7-8 orthos, 5-6 corp, and 10-12 GP offices advertising orthodontics within that SAME 2-3 mile circle. I'm not speculating. I see it as I walk out my front door.

You have to evolve. My answer was to stop fighting the corp offices and join them. Part time. 3 days corp. 3 day private offices. I'm working my butt off, but combined ... I'm making close to what I was making pre-recession.

 

[thenextcarnegie]

Lets just say that dentistry is evolving and is more challenging today then it was pre-recession. There is over-saturation. Case in point. In my city on just about every intersection ... there will be dentists on each corner. One corporate. One "General Dentistry .... and Orthodontics". And 2-3 three private practices. Just about every corner. 10 years ago ... I was the only ortho and a few GP offices on this particular city corner within a 2-3 mile circle. Now there is at least 7-8 orthos, 5-6 corp, and 10-12 GP offices advertising orthodontics within that SAME 2-3 mile circle. I'm not speculating. I see it as I walk out my front door.

You have to evolve. My answer was to stop fighting the corp offices and join them. Part time. 3 days corp. 3 day private offices. I'm working my butt off, but combined ... I'm making close to what I was making pre-recession.

Hmm, interesting perspective 2TH! Thanks! Pretty interesting that you work for both corporate and also do a private practice. Haven't heard of that before, but if you say it's as good as it is, then I'll take your word for it!

 

[2TH MVR]

Hmm, interesting perspective 2TH! Thanks! Pretty interesting that you work for both corporate and also do a private practice. Haven't heard of that before, but if you say it's as good as it is, then I'll take your word for it!

It was eye opening when I started part time with the Corp job. They have no problem getting new patients: gen and ortho. The funny thing is when you read the yelp reviews .... what you see is a ton of bad reviews. Yet .... they stay very busy. Their secret? Financing over a long period of time. I never finance my ortho pts for OVER their treatment time. Not so for the Corp. People will finance (and pay interest) to get that payment down to $99/mos for ortho or Gen procedures. They will be paying LONG AFTER their ortho work and gen is done.

 

[thenextcarnegie]

It was eye-opening when I started part-time with the Corp job. They have no problem getting new patients: gen and ortho. The funny thing is when you read the yelp reviews .... what you see is a ton of bad reviews. Yet .... they stay very busy. Their secret? Financing over a long period of time. I never finance my ortho pts for OVER their treatment time. Not so for the Corp. People will finance (and pay interest) to get that payment down to $99/mos for ortho or Gen procedures. They will be paying LONG AFTER their ortho work and gen is done.

So is this one of the key secret ingredient to being a successful dentist? Create a financing option similar to that of corporate? Or does this just lead to further problems? I have heard that some dentists have even had to go to small claim courts because patients don't pay up, but this can even cost more money (lawyers, etc) then the actual money owed. I know money is the end all to dentistry at all, however, after graduating dental school we still have overhead costs, family costs, and that massive school debt.

Do you think that the same thing is going to happen to dentistry as it has in medicine? Hospitals or other corporations buying out private practices as insurances start deciding how much they pay per procedure? I know the fee for service model is going out of style completely and we've moved more towards long-term preventative dental care just as in medicine. Or is this a completely different beast?

 

[2TH MVR]

So is this one of the key secret ingredient to being a successful dentist? Create a financing option similar to that of corporate? Or does this just lead to further problems? I have heard that some dentists have even had to go to small claim courts because patients don't pay up, but this can even cost more money (lawyers, etc) then the actual money owed. I know money is the end all to dentistry at all, however, after graduating dental school we still have overhead costs, family costs, and that massive school debt.

Do you think that the same thing is going to happen to dentistry as it has in medicine? Hospitals or other corporations buying out private practices as insurances start deciding how much they pay per procedure? I know the fee for service model is going out of style completely and we've moved more towards long-term preventative dental care just as in medicine. Or is this a completely different beast?

No. A private office is not a bank. If I was a GP ... I EXPECT to be paid BEFORE a procedure is completed. Like I said .... my practice will finance 18 mos of a 18-24 months ortho case. I get paid BEFORE the braces are removed. As a GP ... the procedures are completed in fewer appts. Pretty hard to collect after the procedure is already completed. Although care credit seems to be pretty popular. You get paid less a %. Corp offices are larger in scale and can behave like lending institutions. They use Care Credit ALL the time to extend payments past the typical ortho 18-24 months.

As for Corps buying practices. It's already happening. It's why my numbers are down. Lots of my past referrers (GP buddies) have sold out to the corps for whatever reasons. The corp bring in their own ortho. No more referrals for me.

There will always be a place for FFS. There will always be patients who will desire a Dentist who truly cares for them. Someone they can entrust their life long dental needs to.

 

[Stanelz]

No. A private office is not a bank. If I was a GP ... I EXPECT to be paid BEFORE a procedure is completed. Like I said .... my practice will finance 18 mos of a 18-24 months ortho case. I get paid BEFORE the braces are removed. As a GP ... the procedures are completed in fewer appts. Pretty hard to collect after the procedure is already completed. Although care credit seems to be pretty popular. You get paid less a %. Corp offices are larger in scale and can behave like lending institutions. They use Care Credit ALL the time to extend payments past the typical ortho 18-24 months.

As for Corps buying practices. It's already happening. It's why my numbers are down. Lots of my past referrers (GP buddies) have sold out to the corps for whatever reasons. The corp bring in their own ortho. No more referrals for me.

There will always be a place for FFS. There will always be patients who will desire a Dentist who truly cares for them. Someone they can entrust their life long dental needs to.

It took me a minute to understand your username. I really like your username.

 

[2TH MVR]

It took me a minute to understand your username. I really like your username.

Yeah,

I've had personalized plates (no longer .... seems self serving) with

2TH MVR
2TH MUVR
STR82TH

 

[thenextcarnegie]

No. A private office is not a bank. If I was a GP ... I EXPECT to be paid BEFORE a procedure is completed. Like I said .... my practice will finance 18 mos of a 18-24 months ortho case. I get paid BEFORE the braces are removed. As a GP ... the procedures are completed in fewer appts. Pretty hard to collect after the procedure is already completed. Although care credit seems to be pretty popular. You get paid less a %. Corp offices are larger in scale and can behave like lending institutions. They use Care Credit ALL the time to extend payments past the typical ortho 18-24 months.

As for Corps buying practices. It's already happening. It's why my numbers are down. Lots of my past referrers (GP buddies) have sold out to the corps for whatever reasons. The corp bring in their own ortho. No more referrals for me.

There will always be a place for FFS. There will always be patients who will desire a Dentist who truly cares for them. Someone they can entrust their life long dental needs to.

I really appreciate your insight into this. It really clarifies a lot of my questions regarding dentistry as a future clinician. I do have a few other questions because you have been really polite in answering my questions. Do you think that Private Practices will eventually become less and less? As in decrease since most dentist may prefer going corporate? Is it even worthwhile to choose the private practice route or would it be best to invest in dental technology and the more business side of dentistry since corporates will always want to make $$. What are your thoughts as an ortho? Tech is a huge part of dentistry now.

 

[2TH MVR]

I foresee GPs and specialists banding together in large dentist owned group practices to fight the Corps.

Many advantages to this scenario:
1. Patients like the fact that they can go to one place and see the GPs and all the specialists.
2. Overhead cost sharing between the dentists and 100% utilization of the facility. I currently pay rent (retail space) in one office and a mortgage (I own the building) in the other office. 2 days at one location and 1 day at the other location. Not a very smart way of utilizing the offices since part time in both. I've tried to lease the offices when I'm not there .... no success .... yet.
3. And the biggie: GPs and Specialists can WORK together for mutual profit rather than compete against each other.

As for dentists going Corp. It's just a temp job ...for most. I'm doing it to add to my income and do something different.

Ortho treatment is being transformed into a commodity. Everyone is doing it. Can do it online if you want (Smiles Direct ....). Your GP can do it for you. Invisalign has changed my profession forever. Embrace aligner treatment and you will be fine. I personally cannot stand aligner treatment due to the less than ideal outcomes. Patients won't know how much better their outcome would have been with conventional specialized orthodontics.

 

[thenextcarnegie]

I foresee GPs and specialists banding together in large dentist owned group practices to fight the Corps.

Many advantages to this scenario:
1. Patients like the fact that they can go to one place and see the GPs and all the specialists.
2. Overhead cost sharing between the dentists and 100% utilization of the facility. I currently pay rent (retail space) in one office and a mortgage (I own the building) in the other office. 2 days at one location and 1 day at the other location. Not a very smart way of utilizing the offices since part time in both. I've tried to lease the offices when I'm not there .... no success .... yet.
3. And the biggie: GPs and Specialists can WORK together for mutual profit rather than compete against each other.

As for dentists going Corp. It's just a temp job ...for most. I'm doing it to add to my income and do something different.

Ortho treatment is being transformed into a commodity. Everyone is doing it. Can do it online if you want (Smiles Direct ....). Your GP can do it for you. Invisalign has changed my profession forever. Embrace aligner treatment and you will be fine. I personally cannot stand aligner treatment due to the less than ideal outcomes. Patients won't know how much better their outcome would have been with conventional specialized orthodontics.

Essentially, the best thing to do would then get into a practice where this is a well-established practice with patients and then hope that a partnership is up for grabs? I could see that happening, I think that may actually address the problem. I just hope it's more sooner than later but I guess we won't really know for sure. A couple more questions.

1. Why is there a competition amongst specialists and GPs? Don't specialists need the referrals of the GP to do "their jobs"? At least from my understanding that's how it works.
2. Do you think because of the advent of "smiles direct" and a GP doing ortho specialty based procedures it is not worth it to pursue an ortho residency? Could you just take CE courses and become as good as an ortho in terms of doing that specialty niche?
3. Why doesn't the American Ortho Association address the issue of these "aligner" treatment outcomes? If the traditional way is better then is it not best to do what's best for the patient? Or is it that "Invisalign" and others have bought out their dignity?

 

[deleted767916]

Essentially, the best thing to do would then get into a practice where this is a well-established practice with patients and then hope that a partnership is up for grabs? I could see that happening, I think that may actually address the problem. I just hope it's more sooner than later but I guess we won't really know for sure.

I think this is the correct mindset, but most of the successful dentists I shadowed were private clinics but behaved in a macro-level, which partnership usually promotes. One of the dentist I shadowed was in a partnership and then opened his own clinic and stole his previous partner's patients since he opened his clinic literally across the street. He was more successful due to a variety of reasons, but I think one of the major factors is that he behaved as a "corporate" business and invested in advertisements, hired a financial manager/account, willing to negotiate with insurance companies and patients for deals, etc. The one thing I personally noticed is that it helps being part of an established "renowned" clinic i.e brand-imaging. For example, one of my dentists I shadowed used to work for some other well-known dentist but once he retired he took over; people would drive literally an hour just to go to this clinic due to it's professional image despite the actual dentist who established the clinic is retired; his area has a lot of dentists as well and he tells me that the competition hasn't particularly impacted him versus the recession. He's also expanding his clinic to another town and letting his partners switch during which days they work at a certain location.

I'm not a dentist yet so take my word with a grain of salt; this is obviously a complex issue with a lot of other factors that I failed to recognize and factor in.

 

[2TH MVR]

Essentially, the best thing to do would then get into a practice where this is a well-established practice with patients and then hope that a partnership is up for grabs? I could see that happening, I think that may actually address the problem. I just hope it's more sooner than later but I guess we won't really know for sure. A couple more questions. It requires multiple GPs and specialists with a vision of working together. Everyone should be partners with a vested interest in the entire practice ... NOT employees. Equal partners would then continue to work to bring patients in and have equal voting rights within the group. An employee group practice has already been done .... its called a Corporate Office.

1. Why is there a competition amongst specialists and GPs? Don't specialists need the referrals of the GP to do "their jobs"? At least from my understanding that's how it works. I can't speak for the other specialties, but technology has made straightening teeth easier (not better!). GPs can now provide aligner treatment to their patients. Prior to aligners .... children AND ADULTS were referred to the orthos for orthodontic treatment. Now ... many GPs are doing aligner treatment, 6 months braces, etc.
2. Do you think because of the advent of "smiles direct" and a GP doing ortho specialty based procedures it is not worth it to pursue an ortho residency? Could you just take CE courses and become as good as an ortho in terms of doing that specialty niche? Review the curriculum requirements required of an Orthodontist and see if you still consider weekend CE courses as "enough experience". Orthodontic treatment is unique in that it takes months to do PROPERLY. Experience is key. In 25 years ... I've seen every type of malocclusion and know what will work and won't work.
3. Why doesn't the American Ortho Association address the issue of these "aligner" treatment outcomes? If the traditional way is better then is it not best to do what's best for the patient? Or is it that "Invisalign" and others have bought out their dignity?

That's a good question. Are you listening AAO? Aligner is an alternate type of treatment for specific patients. It works well in those situations. I draw the line when aligners are marketed towards young, growing children.

 

[thenextcarnegie]

That's a good question. Are you listening AAO? Aligner is an alternate type of treatment for specific patients. It works well in those situations. I draw the line when aligners are marketed towards young, growing children.

Well, thanks for your input 2TH MVR! I really liked that you were able to provide real-life input on everything. I wish other dentists would have chimed in as well, but at least I have a better understanding of where the future is headed. Definitely, makes me want to pursue dentistry further.

 

[Likkriue]

"Dentists are poor"

This is when I realized how spoiled the dentist writing this blog is. You know who is poor? Families that make less than 50k and year and that's about 50% of the US.

Sure making 100k with 200-300k debt is not ideal, but in 10 years you can easily dig out of that if you kept making a stactic 100k.

One person in the family making 100k a year marrying a intelligent SO who makes lets say 50-60k a year would have a income of 150-160k a year to tackle 200-300k worth of debt. You could climb out within 10 years easy living well.

But nope, and this is when I start to realize how spoiled you dentists are. I don't know what constitutes making 100k a year as poor, that's easily top 10% of salaries in the US. What a bunch of greedy spoiled dentists who think about money day in and day out. There's more to life than money.

 

[Roy Williams]

The most important thing in life is money

Idk if I agree with your statement...

 

[Vicviper]

Dentistry isn't for everyone, if you aren't passionate about being a dentist, you'll get burnt out. That said, I love being a dentist, and I love going into work every day. The perspective on that blog post may be coming from someone who bought into a struggling practice, and is having a really bad year, with more and more stress piling up. He's wrong that you'll be poor, him saying that just means he's never seen what it's like to actually be poor - but you sure won't be filthy rich.

The biggest problem with dental school is the cost - and if you're really concerned about that, join the military of the national health service, and get them to pay for it. Every friend of mine who did that was glad they did, and they have no loans. I sure wish I did the same!

The most important thing is to really know you want to be a dentist before starting dental school - you need to do tons of shadowing, and confirm that this is what you want to do for the rest of your life.

 

[Likkriue]

These people haven't worked a minimum wage job ever much less what a good portion of the world has to do to make a living.

Have they worked 12 hours a day doing backbreaking labor on banana farms in scorching heat for pennies?

Or moving piles of bricks for 10 cents an hour?

Bunch of sissies. Oh no I'm making 60$ an hour for four days a week 9-5. Someone give me a life vest!!!!

 

[aj30]

"Dentists are poor"

This is when I realized how spoiled the dentist writing this blog is. You know who is poor? Families that make less than 50k and year and that's about 50% of the US.

Sure making 100k with 200-300k debt is not ideal, but in 10 years you can easily dig out of that if you kept making a stactic 100k.

One person in the family making 100k a year marrying a intelligent SO who makes lets say 50-60k a year would have a income of 150-160k a year to tackle 200-300k worth of debt. You could climb out within 10 years easy living well.

But nope, and this is when I start to realize how spoiled you dentists are. I don't know what constitutes making 100k a year as poor, that's easily top 10% of salaries in the US. What a bunch of greedy spoiled dentists who think about money day in and day out. There's more to life than money.

I think you're wrong for a number of reasons:

1. You can't compare dentists to the general population in terms of income. A guy pulling in 100k flipping burgers in McDonald's is doing great, while a neurosurgeon making the same is in very bad shape. It can take people to the tune of a million dollars in expenses and lost wages (and years and years of brutal sacrifice) to become dentists, so they can and should expect much higher incomes than most other people. If they're not compensated in accordance with their sacrifices, they are right in their complaints.

2. Most people who become dentists could've made more money than most other people doing other things as well. So, once again, comparing them to people making 50k isn't fair, for most of these complaining dentists wouldn't be making 50k doing other jobs, but much more.

3. Pointing out the relative benefits of dentistry vs. other, worse, professions doesn't do much good. These "legitimately" poor people that you brought up, that are making 50k a year, are still raking it in compared to farmers in rural India making $5 a month. The question is whether dentistry is or is not worth the expense and sacrifice, and that's determined by its own value and benefits, not by other professions' lack of them.

 

[Likkriue]

I think you're wrong for a number of reasons:

1. You can't compare dentists to the general population in terms of income. A guy pulling in 100k flipping burgers in McDonald's is doing great, while a neurosurgeon making the same is in very bad shape. It can take people to the tune of a million dollars in expenses and lost wages (and years and years of brutal sacrifice) to become dentists, so they can and should expect much higher incomes than most other people. If they're not compensated in accordance with their sacrifices, they are right in their complaints.

2. Most people who become dentists could've made more money than most other people doing other things as well. So, once again, comparing them to people making 50k isn't fair, for most of these complaining dentists wouldn't be making 50k doing other jobs, but much more.

3. Pointing out the relative benefits of dentistry vs. other, worse, professions doesn't do much good. These "legitimately" poor people that you brought up, that are making 50k a year, are still raking it in compared to farmers in rural India making $5 a month. The question is whether dentistry is or is not worth the expense and sacrifice, and that's determined by its own value and benefits, not by other professions' lack of them.

Brutal sacrifices to be a dentist? I'm actually in dental school and I'm not making any "brutal sacrifices".
All your points are the same exact points that make people bitter and never look at how fortunate they are to be a dentist. This is why so many dentists are miserable, and I'm not going to be one of them.

If I make 80k a year I'll be ecstatic. I've been through the grind of minimal wage jobs. Hence I am in total disagreement with you.

I'll compare a dentist to the general populace all day. A dentist is still a person and not superhuman, get off your high horses.

 

[aj30]

Brutal sacrifices to be a dentist? I'm actually in dental school and I'm not making any "brutal sacrifices".
All your points are the same exact points that make people bitter and never look at how fortunate they are to be a dentist. This is why so many dentists are miserable, and I'm not going to be one of them.

If I make 80k a year I'll be ecstatic. I've been through the grind of minimal wage jobs. Hence I am in total disagreement with you.

I'll compare a dentist to the general populace all day. A dentist is still a person and not superhuman, get off your high horses.

I guess it's good the world will have one less complaining dentist.

 

[Steins;Gate]

Sure making 100k with 200-300k debt is not ideal, but in 10 years you can easily dig out of that if you kept making a stactic 100k.

One person in the family making 100k a year marrying a intelligent SO who makes lets say 50-60k a year would have a income of 150-160k a year to tackle 200-300k worth of debt. You could climb out within 10 years easy living well.

But nope, and this is when I start to realize how spoiled you dentists are. I don't know what constitutes making 100k a year as poor, that's easily top 10% of salaries in the US. What a bunch of greedy spoiled dentists who think about money day in and day out. There's more to life than money.

A dentist has to consider debt not only from tuition but also from the purchase of a practice (this is on top of other major debts such as a mortgage, etc.). If you're making 100K a year and then being taxed and then need to pay off tuition+interest and practice debt+interest, it's not really a lot of money left. I can only speak for Canada but 100K pretax income here nets us about 75K posttax income to pay off tuition (200-300K is not so common, especially for those who have attended American dental schools and come back to Canada to practice, it would be 500K+ CAD after the exchange rate has been factored in for many DDS/DMD American programs). Then you still need to pay practice debt (for us we have to pay back principal+interest within 10 years generally). I also would like to eventually buy a home and a car and still have some money to save. Even if you had a spouse who made 50-60K a year, 150-160K a year is not really all that much at all for the 10-15 years you will be paying off these debts.

In terms of sacrifice, we have "sacrificed" 4 years of earning potential by attending dental school, we will have additional stresses as a business owner, we have additional practice debt to pay for nearly a decade, and also upwards of half a million in tuition for us Canadians who may be studying in the US. We would also sacrifice living away from home if we studied in the US. Dental school is also not a walk in the park to get into and to stay in. I think there have been a fair share of sacrifices made in this path.

As for you being happy with 80K, I respect that. However, it's not very fair to label people as greedy if they want to earn more than this or earn more in general. Everyone has their own set of circumstances and it's not very fair to label your own as the norm. Apparently we are all spoiled and greedy and we think about money day in and day out. Some people have tougher financial circumstances and want to earn more. Some people want to enjoy more out of their fruits of labour. To label all dentists as greedy would not be fair (not saying you did this). Every industry has their share of individuals who are happy with earning less and those who want to earn more and some who are perfectly content with what the average salary is.

Cheers

 

[Str82th]

2. Do you think because of the advent of "smiles direct" and a GP doing ortho specialty based procedures it is not worth it to pursue an ortho residency? Could you just take CE courses and become as good as an ortho in terms of doing that specialty niche?

Absolutely not.

 

[Likkriue]

A dentist has to consider debt not only from tuition but also from the purchase of a practice (this is on top of other major debts such as a mortgage, etc.). If you're making 100K a year and then being taxed and then need to pay off tuition+interest and practice debt+interest, it's not really a lot of money left. I can only speak for Canada but 100K pretax income here nets us about 75K posttax income to pay off tuition (200-300K is not so common, especially for those who have attended American dental schools and come back to Canada to practice, it would be 500K+ CAD after the exchange rate has been factored in for many DDS/DMD American programs). Then you still need to pay practice debt (for us we have to pay back principal+interest within 10 years generally). I also would like to eventually buy a home and a car and still have some money to save. Even if you had a spouse who made 50-60K a year, 150-160K a year is not really all that much at all for the 10-15 years you will be paying off these debts.

In terms of sacrifice, we have "sacrificed" 4 years of earning potential by attending dental school, we will have additional stresses as a business owner, we have additional practice debt to pay for nearly a decade, and also upwards of half a million in tuition for us Canadians who may be studying in the US. We would also sacrifice living away from home if we studied in the US. Dental school is also not a walk in the park to get into and to stay in. I think there have been a fair share of sacrifices made in this path.

As for you being happy with 80K, I respect that. However, it's not very fair to label people as greedy if they want to earn more than this or earn more in general. Everyone has their own set of circumstances and it's not very fair to label your own as the norm. Apparently we are all spoiled and greedy and we think about money day in and day out. Some people have tougher financial circumstances and want to earn more. Some people want to enjoy more out of their fruits of labour. To label all dentists as greedy would not be fair (not saying you did this). Every industry has their share of individuals who are happy with earning less and those who want to earn more and some who are perfectly content with what the average salary is.

Cheers

If making 100k a year is poor to you, then you are greedy.
100k a year is normal for associating, you don't even need to buy into a pratice.

The successful dentists don't whine. The unsuccessful ones do.
Wanting to build a successful pratice and making money is one thing. Calling yourself poor while making top 10% salaries is next level delusional.

 

[Steins;Gate]

If making 100k a year is poor to you, then you are greedy.

I don't think I said this. Even if you remove the practice debt because you are an associate, the cost of school is still very high (Canadians would be very fortunate to pay less than 300K, very often 400K and 500K+) and four years of lost income from attending dental school should also be considered. Both factors considered together, the lost income due to attending dental school clouds how high 100K a year truly is for over a decade after you graduate.

Wanting to build a successful pratice and making money is one thing. Calling yourself poor while making top 10% salaries is next level delusional.

I'm the former. Not really trying to argue with you but trying to explain that you cannot compare incomes apples to apples if there is high tuition and years of lost income. Have to tease out the numbers a bit more to make a fair comparison.

If you enjoy dentistry and taking care of patients and have good business sense, the money will be there. For us dental students, our goal is to focus on the former and not think too much of the latter.

 

[Likkriue]

I was mostly bashing the dentist who wrote that article.

 

[aggietxdent]

The successful dentists don't whine. The unsuccessful ones do.

I think that's really the key. There are 220k+ dentists in the US and Canada. It's not that hard to find a bucketful of disgruntled dentists out of 220k. I'm a part of this facebook page for dentists and the things they usually complain about are yelp reviews, late patients, bad staff, and insurance. However, they all make pretty good money and have the power to control 90% of their problems as business owners.

 

[amariesa]

To the kid that cries like there is no tomorrow when his lollipop falls on the floor, it IS the worst thing to ever happen to him so he reacts accordingly. To the dentist that lived a sheltered life, being hundreds of thousands in debt may actually be the worst thing to happen to them so they react accordingly. To people like likkriue, who maybe has worked a lot of ****ty jobs, being a dentist in debt may not seem bad at all and is confused as to why others are not equipped to deal with it.

Some people have been through tough **** and look at others on how weak and entitled they are. But instead of judging, just be happy you went through hard times and learned perspective. The complainers are just people that have yet to finish developing perspective. Be proud of yourself and move on. As an immigrant who learned English later on, someone that's delt with loss, and real-life grievances, the 28 year olds who complain about having a hard time making crazy high salaries does indeed sound delusional. But at the same time, I consider myself lucky to have had a harder life start than most others because it's made me strong and gave me perspective. The 400k debt Im facing? I can deal with it. The people who grew up with golden spoon may not. There no need to further antagonize them.

 

[Lamboboss1]

Brutal sacrifices to be a dentist? I'm actually in dental school and I'm not making any "brutal sacrifices".
All your points are the same exact points that make people bitter and never look at how fortunate they are to be a dentist. This is why so many dentists are miserable, and I'm not going to be one of them.

If I make 80k a year I'll be ecstatic. I've been through the grind of minimal wage jobs. Hence I am in total disagreement with you.

I'll compare a dentist to the general populace all day. A dentist is still a person and not superhuman, get off your high horses.

80k after taxes?

 

[Likkriue]

80k after taxes? that isn't alot compared to other jobs!

That's in the upper 75% of jobs.

 

[thenextcarnegie]

That's in the upper 75% of jobs.

Yeah, it definitely is! I believe the average salary for an American is ~$63,000 (non-service jobs, management etc.) However, with a doctorate that goes up and it varies. Not the best to pay back school loans, however, if financially managed properly anything can be achieved.

 

[blablabla1]

Yeah, it definitely is! I believe the average salary for an American is ~$63,000 (non-service jobs, management etc.) However, with a doctorate that goes up and it varies. Not the best to pay back school loans, however, if financially managed properly anything can be achieved.

But there is a lost opportunity cost and tuition with a doctorate. Unless you’re graduating with an undergrad CS major, it’s pretty difficult to be making more than 75k with just a bachelors degree. I have a couple friends who graduated with CS majors and they’re making 120k straight out of undergrad, but they’re obviously not the norm

 

[Likkriue]

But there is a lost opportunity cost and tuition with a doctorate. Unless you’re graduating with an undergrad CS major, it’s pretty difficult to be making more than 75k with just a bachelors degree. I have a couple friends who graduated with CS majors and they’re making 120k straight out of undergrad, but they’re obviously not the norm

Most entry level jobs are 50-60k. Takes a good 4-5 before breaking 100k. Some people are made for it, others are not. I know many friends who are amazing at coding but end up in other jobs because they can't imagine doing it as a job.

 

[thenextcarnegie]

But there is a lost opportunity cost and tuition with a doctorate. Unless you’re graduating with an undergrad CS major, it’s pretty difficult to be making more than 75k with just a bachelors degree. I have a couple friends who graduated with CS majors and they’re making 120k straight out of undergrad, but they’re obviously not the norm

Yeah and that's a big issue as well, the market as a whole is just a problem I feel. Cost of living is going up, inflation rises as time goes by, and some majors in college don't even get you jobs. It's a shame really, the amount we pay to get educated yet the return on investment can be quite minimal. Maybe that's why entrepreneurship is such a sought out "career", although it too has its heavy risks. Alas, I know I am going a bit off topic, but I think this change has to start with the highest level of government. Education should not be this expensive, I don't quite understand why universities charge so much to teach people. Look at Germany for example, free or very low costing education, it's why the country is doing so well internally. I know Europe and America is a stark comparison, but our country should start looking at their models of education and seeing why education is more effective in other countries.

 

[2TH MVR]

I don't understand this idea of "lost opportunity". People who bring this up remind me of insurance actuaries doing statistical analysis on how long people live. You live one life (again .... not debating religion). Life is about experiences. The actual part of going to school is a part of your experiences. Another example is parents getting their kids to skip grades and get into college quicker. Why? You're only a kid once. You have your entire life to be an adult. Why shorten one of the best times in life to get to adulthood quicker?

Lets look at it differently. I know PLENTY of people who went straight to work right after HS or college. Sure ... some of them did well. But MOST of them never achieved what I did.

Trust me. There are no guarantees in life. I've tried to make a plan for my life. Planning a financial road map to retirement. Everything I planned was derailed in some way. It happens. Life happens.

If you want to be a dentist. Then be one. Stop over analyzing all the minutia. Yes it will cost you, but most things in life will.

Most of you young professional and future professionals have an advantage with SDN. There was no internet when I was growing up. You have the advantage of instant information to help and guide you. Unfortunately the same anecdotal information can mislead you. Maybe I was lucky. Ignorance can be bliss.

 

[thenextcarnegie]

I don't understand this idea of "lost opportunity". People who bring this up remind me of insurance actuaries doing statistical analysis on how long people live. You live one life (again .... not debating religion). Life is about experiences. The actual part of going to school is a part of your experiences. Another example is parents getting their kids to skip grades and get into college quicker. Why? You're only a kid once. You have your entire life to be an adult. Why shorten one of the best times in life to get to adulthood quicker?

Lets look at it differently. I know PLENTY of people who went straight to work right after HS or college. Sure ... some of them did well. But MOST of them never achieved what I did.

Trust me. There are no guarantees in life. I've tried to make a plan for my life. Planning a financial road map to retirement. Everything I planned was derailed in some way. It happens. Life happens.

If you want to be a dentist. Then be one. Stop over analyzing all the minutia. Yes it will cost you, but most things in life will.

Most of you young professional and future professionals have an advantage with SDN. There was no internet when I was growing up. You have the advantage of instant information to help and guide you. Unfortunately the same anecdotal information can mislead you. Maybe I was lucky. Ignorance can be bliss.

I don't really have an answer for you 2TH but I think you are right. Life is all about experiences, it's something I personally have just stumbled upon. Being a part of an immigrant family that came here for a better life, I was always told to study away my kid years. Always just stay focused on your goals, but as I have gotten older I've realized that it's okay to "smell the roses" from time to time. I am a planner, it's apart of my personality, but maybe it's best to just focus on the here and now because life can easily be derailed. And yes, you are right we do have an advantage of the internet but it can also be detrimental. Thank you for your perspective as a professional though, it definitely opens one's eyes.