KEVINMD blog post on NP. (even neonatologist is fooled)

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You present me nothing about that intention, it's all "read in." The issue is, NPs never did validate their "right," to independent practice. They lobbied for it, but never proved much of anything. The reality is that physician remote oversight basically has no downside. I think the oversight is needed and funny enough, so did many of the first generation of NPs. They didn't have a chip on their shoulder.


You are attempting to move the bar. Your original assertion was they never intended for it to be independent. That's simply not true by the very assertions of the people who created it and by the history of NPs which I posted.

Now, if you want to discuss whether or not they proved themselves or validated their right to practice independently, I do not have the experience or KnowledgeBase to answer that question empirically. That said, analytically, the answer would be yes. The studies are there and none have been contradictory. They are consistently gaining more practicing rights in every state and the public and hospitals consider them practictioners. Even most professional MDs arguments seem to be centered around business and not care or patient care when the older original arguments that I read were all about patient care. I would say that meets a societal standard of proven behavior of which the condition is acceptance. They have been accepted in their roles.

I've made my concerns known in regards to their independent practice but it's not in regards to their abilities moreso than their lack of experience. I think that licensed professional (affect public health) should work under supervision for the first few years at least. To not do shows nothing but arrogance on their part. That said, thinking they always require supervision is arrogance as well. People need to drop the arrogance.
 
Docs don't fail at care, the NPs haven't been shown to be equivalent

You're dropping cliches that mean nothing

I'm reading independent studies and sharing my interpretation of those studies. If you have heard this before then someone else probably came to the same conclusion from reading the studies. Maybe your bias is the issue then and preventing you from being impartial?

I never said physicians fail at care. I said, generally speaking, physicians fail at patient centered care. In other words, patient adherence and compliance. This is from studies performed by physicians as well as studies performed by others. It appears to be a general accepted fact and med schools appear to be considering significant changes to try to address the issue.
 
You are attempting to move the bar. Your original assertion was they never intended for it to be independent. That's simply not true by the very assertions of the people who created it and by the history of NPs which I posted.

I'm not moving the bar. I'm telling you flatly your quotes did not support your statement.
 
I'm reading independent studies and sharing my interpretation of those studies. If you have heard this before then someone else probably came to the same conclusion from reading the studies. Maybe your bias is the issue then and preventing you from being impartial?

I never said physicians fail at care. I said, generally speaking, physicians fail at patient centered care. In other words, patient adherence and compliance. This is from studies performed by physicians as well as studies performed by others. It appears to be a general accepted fact and med schools appear to be considering significant changes to try to address the issue.
link them and we'll go over it.....
 
NP debate aside - This may have been the case historically and still be true for some older, soon-to-be-retired doctors, but I think medicine has made great strides towards patient-centered care. At my MD school I've had lectures and entire courses on public health, communication skills, social determinants of health, empathy, professionalism, ethics, motivational interviewing, how to deliver bad news, factors that affect patient compliance, etc. I'm on an inpatient medicine team right now - when we discuss our patients, we have conversations about what the patient needs in regards to how to talk with them about their care or how to encourage them to take their meds at home, what their home situation is like, what their psychological state is, and what other support resources they might need beyond medical care. Not to mention the fact that DO schools' whole shtick is that they teach their students to provide holistic, patient centered care.

Meanwhile, I've seen nurses make fun of and yell at disabled patients, tell a patient that if they got an ostomy they would probably never have a sex life again, and recently heard of one who got his patient in a vegetative state pregnant.

Now I'm certainly not saying all doctors or all nurses are a certain way. My point is that whether a medical professional's attitude towards patient care is "disease-centered" or "patient-centered" is not about their degree, but about who they are as a person and what their values and habits are.

I agree with you that a lot of it depends on the person and I don't have the empirical knowledge to form an experience driven opinion. I can only view this from an analytical point of view and that only considers larger scale picture (average, etc). I've been going through studies from physicians, NPs, medical researchers, etc. as well as reading their different philosophies and history. Mostly due to people posting things here and me having to dig further into to see if it holds based on the evidence.

That said, back to your original point, It could be that there are just a higher percentage of different types of people going into each program and that's what leads to different patient treatment more than the program itself. But, that said, that's kind of the point to philosophies. People will try to align their philosophy to their profession so they will lean towards the one they most agree with.


But i think it is something that could and should be researched. To see whether it's the people's innate character or the learned skills which provide the NP program it's perceived benefits. Quite a few of these studies were performed on med students. I would be interested in seeing one on NP.
 
You present me nothing about that intention, it's all "read in." The issue is, NPs never did validate their "right," to independent practice. They lobbied for it, but never proved much of anything. The reality is that physician remote oversight basically has no downside. I think the oversight is needed and funny enough, so did many of the first generation of NPs. They didn't have a chip on their shoulder.

Telemedicine and telehealth “supervisions” has massive downsides. I don’t understand how you can make a statement like that without being a troll.
 
I agree with you that a lot of it depends on the person and I don't have the empirical knowledge to form an experience driven opinion. I can only view this from an analytical point of view and that only considers larger scale picture (average, etc). I've been going through studies from physicians, NPs, medical researchers, etc. as well as reading their different philosophies and history. Mostly due to people posting things here and me having to dig further into to see if it holds based on the evidence.

That said, back to your original point, It could be that there are just a higher percentage of different types of people going into each program and that's what leads to different patient treatment more than the program itself. But, that said, that's kind of the point to philosophies. People will try to align their philosophy to their profession so they will lean towards the one they most agree with.


But i think it is something that could and should be researched. To see whether it's the people's innate character or the learned skills which provide the NP program it's perceived benefits. Quite a few of these studies were performed on med students. I would be interested in seeing one on NP.

Don’t feed the trolls. Actual physicians don’t behave this way. This is a SDN med student phenomenon. Thanks for your well thought out posts.
 
I'm really curious how they determine that NPs have the same level of care as physicians, and what metrics are they actually basing this on? Let's pretend some patient has high BP. Now, maybe the NP thinks to try Y medication to lower it, but it does not work. So, what do they do? They refer them to the Cardiologist who recommends X medication. They now willfully continue filling the script for X medication for their patient. Does this mean that whatever study is looking into NP efficacy is going to be like "Yes! The patient didn't die, you're doing great, keep it up!" When you didn't solve the problem, you just charged the patient more money for a referral to a specialist that a Physician could have possibly figured out or known sooner? (Obviously there are cases in which a physician will do this as well, but I'll argue that given the thousands more hours of on the job training that goes into becoming a physician in conjunction with the rigorous and much more difficult pathophysiologic studies in med school, you can recognize and can pick up signs more easily, and could prescribe the right medication more often, lessening the need for a referral).

Also, if an NP practicing independently is ONLY focusing on lower acuity things like Strep, maybe diagnosing some Type II DM and giving insulin, while referring everything else to an endocrinologist, cardiologist, gastro, neuro, their "efficacy" will be really high because they're treating what's in their wheel house (But costing the patient more money in the long run for referrals).

If I went and worked at your Mechanical Engineering firm and you told me to hammer in all those nails for 8 hours and you tell the other guy to design a new machine from scratch... well, after the 8 hours I did my job with ONE HUNDRED PERCENT efficiency while the other guy barely got blue prints out, of course my efficiency will look and appear super great.....

But I don't know, everyone just keeps saying "Studies show numbers look good" but if that's just in super rural areas where people come because they just have sniffles and achy joints - then sure, that's great for people who need quick access to a primary for low level concerns - but are a lot of things being missed? I'm not sure, and that's where the fear and the need for standards come in.

I live near a rural area - And I know for a fact in this one mountainous town of 900 people there is one NP who focuses on women's health - If you had an Internal / Family medicine physician who is responsible for supervising the NP in that region remotely, you could develop a healthy and good relationship with the physician and NP. If you keep switching the supervisor I'm sure that can get really sticky, so you'd definitely need a good relationship and make it long term so you guys develop a sense of flow together. And of course that one IM doctor could probably remotely supervise 4-5 NPs at any given time if that was all you do, but I'm not really sure. But, it wouldn't just be telephone calls. Like, there could be an awesome "GoPro-like" Camera you can wear to really show them the patient, let the physician ask further questions "right in the room" and then suggest a course of action or medication in real time - the NP "Queues" the medication and the MD confirms it on their end. Obviously medications would be tiered so low level tiered drugs would not need a queue, the NP can have free reign over prescribing those.
 
So I was just reading this article by NCBI:

Evidence Brief: The Quality of Care Provided by Advanced Practice Nurses - VA Evidence-based Synthesis Program Evidence Briefs - NCBI Bookshelf

And here is one important quote I will say from it and I will bold the reason why it doesn't really seem valid or fair - Also this article is from 2014. Also, I will say that this study is almost silly because the patient's were being discharged from an ED or UC where their problem was treated - they just needed very slight probably symptomatic treatment or simply prescribing what the ED had offered or suggested. An ED f/u pt typically brings their discharge forms with them from the ED.

"Primary Care. A randomized controlled trial by Mundinger and colleagues is the best available evidence regarding the effectiveness of independent primary care NPs in the primary care setting.53 Patients recruited from an urgent care center and 2 emergency rooms were randomly assigned to a provider in a clinic staffed exclusively by NPs or to a clinic staffed by physicians (Table 1).53 There was no difference between the nurse practitioner group and the physician group in physical or mental Medical Outcomes Study Short-Form Health Survey (SF-36) scores for the 79% of enrolled patients who completed the 6-month follow-up interview (physical component summary scores (adjusted for age, sex, baseline scores, and selected chronic conditions): NP group: 40.53; physician group: 40.60; P=0.92).


Table 1
Effect of care by an APRN on health status.

Strengths of this large study (1,316 patients, 7 NPs, 11 physicians) were that NP and MD practices were not co-located and practitioners were not necessarily aware of patient's involvement in the study. Patients were also new to both groups of providers and NPs had the same authority as MDs to prescribe, consult, refer, and admit patients.

The main weakness of the study was that 6 months is not an adequate follow-up time for the outcome of health status. The care provided in 6 months was too short to represent continuity care. Within the 6-month follow-up period, for example, 42% of patients had 0 or 1 primary care visits. As Sox noted in an editorial that accompanied the trial, “The short duration of the trial limits its ability to test a health professional's competence across the broad spectrum of primary health care.”60 After 2 years, researchers were able to contact 66% of the enrolled patients, and 55% of them had returned to their originally assigned provider.52 In this subsample, there were differences in NP-assigned patients (n=222) and the physician-assigned patients (N=184) in the proportion of Hispanics (94.5 vs 89.6%), Medicaid enrollees (87.4 vs 95.7%) and other characteristics, so that the benefits of randomization had been lost. Another weakness is that the data, which were collected between 1995 and 1997, are now over 20 years old."

The discussion goes on to say:
"This evidence brief found that evidence regarding 4 important outcomes of patients cared for by a nurse working autonomously is inconclusive
. Other systematic reviews have noted the small body of evidence regarding health outcomes of patients receiving care from an APRN or physician.37,41,61

The studies we reviewed did not demonstrate a difference between APRN care and physician care in primary and urgent care settings with regard to health status, quality of life, mortality, or hospitalizations. However, these studies were not large enough, and did not follow patients long enough, to exclude a possible difference."
 
So I was just reading this article by NCBI:

Evidence Brief: The Quality of Care Provided by Advanced Practice Nurses - VA Evidence-based Synthesis Program Evidence Briefs - NCBI Bookshelf

And here is one important quote I will say from it and I will bold the reason why it doesn't really seem valid or fair - Also this article is from 2014. Also, I will say that this study is almost silly because the patient's were being discharged from an ED or UC where their problem was treated - they just needed very slight probably symptomatic treatment or simply prescribing what the ED had offered or suggested. An ED f/u pt typically brings their discharge forms with them from the ED.

"Primary Care. A randomized controlled trial by Mundinger and colleagues is the best available evidence regarding the effectiveness of independent primary care NPs in the primary care setting.53 Patients recruited from an urgent care center and 2 emergency rooms were randomly assigned to a provider in a clinic staffed exclusively by NPs or to a clinic staffed by physicians (Table 1).53 There was no difference between the nurse practitioner group and the physician group in physical or mental Medical Outcomes Study Short-Form Health Survey (SF-36) scores for the 79% of enrolled patients who completed the 6-month follow-up interview (physical component summary scores (adjusted for age, sex, baseline scores, and selected chronic conditions): NP group: 40.53; physician group: 40.60; P=0.92).


Table 1
Effect of care by an APRN on health status.

Strengths of this large study (1,316 patients, 7 NPs, 11 physicians) were that NP and MD practices were not co-located and practitioners were not necessarily aware of patient's involvement in the study. Patients were also new to both groups of providers and NPs had the same authority as MDs to prescribe, consult, refer, and admit patients.

The main weakness of the study was that 6 months is not an adequate follow-up time for the outcome of health status. The care provided in 6 months was too short to represent continuity care. Within the 6-month follow-up period, for example, 42% of patients had 0 or 1 primary care visits. As Sox noted in an editorial that accompanied the trial, “The short duration of the trial limits its ability to test a health professional's competence across the broad spectrum of primary health care.”60 After 2 years, researchers were able to contact 66% of the enrolled patients, and 55% of them had returned to their originally assigned provider.52 In this subsample, there were differences in NP-assigned patients (n=222) and the physician-assigned patients (N=184) in the proportion of Hispanics (94.5 vs 89.6%), Medicaid enrollees (87.4 vs 95.7%) and other characteristics, so that the benefits of randomization had been lost. Another weakness is that the data, which were collected between 1995 and 1997, are now over 20 years old."

The discussion goes on to say:
"This evidence brief found that evidence regarding 4 important outcomes of patients cared for by a nurse working autonomously is inconclusive
. Other systematic reviews have noted the small body of evidence regarding health outcomes of patients receiving care from an APRN or physician.37,41,61

The studies we reviewed did not demonstrate a difference between APRN care and physician care in primary and urgent care settings with regard to health status, quality of life, mortality, or hospitalizations. However, these studies were not large enough, and did not follow patients long enough, to exclude a possible difference."
So what you’re saying is no good evidence of equivalence
 
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