Kicked out of clinical PhD programs?

[psychRA]

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I'm on internship now, but in catching up with an old colleague from my pre-grad school days, I learned that one of our mutual friends had been dismissed from her funded clinical PhD program pretty late in the game, and another friend had been on probation and on the verge of getting kicked out of her own program, also very late in the game.

Logically I know that this must happen, but honestly, I never realized that getting kicked out of grad school was something that happened with any regularity. I can't imagine my own program allowing someone to reach a point where they were dismissed - you'd be getting TONS of corrective feedback very early in the process, and it seems like you'd actually have to work at getting kicked out. I know of maybe 2 people who left for personal reasons in their first or second year.

So, I'm less interested in people deciding to leave their program, and more interested in hearing whether you know anyone who was actually dismissed. Why did it happen? Did it come as a surprise, or was there plenty of warning? Did you think it was justified?

Note: There was a similar thread about this topic last year, but it derailed pretty abruptly, so I'm still curious.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

To clarify, are you solely interested in hearing about dismissal from funded PhD programs?

 

[psychRA]

Good question! I'm interested in doctoral psych programs as a whole.

 

[Doctor Eliza]

I went to a respected, fully funded PhD program (cohorts of approx 6 students). 5 students were dismissed during my time there and one more was nearly dismissed. In 2 cases it was appropriate, one it was clearly NOT appropriate, and in 2 cases it was unclear. Interestingly, at least one of those students does not appear in the schools published data on attrition.

It should be said that I went to a program where a lot of shady things happened and the faculty are pretty disturbed. 🙁

Best,
Dr. E

 

[KillerDiller]

I've seen a few students kicked out of my PhD program. Most choose to voluntarily withdraw before that happens, though. In the case I was closest to, the student did get a lot of corrective feedback and opportunities to fix the issues, and simply didn't do it. I think it's important to remember that schools have an ethical duty to protect the profession. If a student is wildly inappropriate for clinical work (as happens occasionally), then it's better for many people concerned that that person not be allowed to graduate with a clinical degree. The same is true if a student is not able to engage with research or digest the requisite knowledge to be a psychologist. It's a tough situation, no doubt.

 

[Rivi]

I went to a respected, fully funded PhD program (cohorts of approx 6 students). 5 students were dismissed during my time there and one more was nearly dismissed. In 2 cases it was appropriate, one it was clearly NOT appropriate, and in 2 cases it was unclear. Interestingly, at least one of those students does not appear in the schools published data on attrition.

It should be said that I went to a program where a lot of shady things happened and the faculty are pretty disturbed. 🙁

Best,
Dr. E

Holy crap

 

[weeblewobble]

I know of two who have been dismissed from my program. In one case it was absolutely necessary for all sorts of administrative and ethical reasons. In the other it seemed more ambivalent to me. I think that the faculty felt the same because they offered the student a leave of absence first. It's really hard to dismiss a student and it looks poorly on the program as a whole, the mentor, and the student. I think my program has done pretty well by it, although I wish they offered feedback more quickly.

I remember on my interviews asking a school (fully funded clinical PhD) about their >20% attrition rate. The faculty I asked essentially told me that all the students left to go be with their significant others. I had a hard time believing that.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Looking back at my grad program, if I averaged the dismissals that occurred across my time there, I believe it might've worked out to an attrition rate of almost one student per year (with incoming class sizes usually in the 10-12 range).

Mind you that by "dismissals," as another poster mentioned, I predominantly mean students leaving "of their own volition" rather than actually being kicked out. Of the latter, there were two that I can remember (or a few more if I count all psych areas rather than just clinical), and they occurred owing to the students having failed two classes during their time in the program. The remainder left for a variety of personal reasons, which not-uncommonly would end up interfering with their abilities/motivations to complete major projects (e.g., comps, dissertation).

 

[Ollie123]

I know of two people who were "essentially" kicked out of my program in recent years. In both cases they are not on record as having been kicked out, but were basically told "Leave or we'll kick you out" and left.

One was absolutely 100% warranted and I think its a testament to how TOO warm and fuzzy my program is at times that they waited as long as they did to kick the person out. They had ample justification for doing so loooong before they actually did. The other was somewhat more ambiguous. It was an ethical violation (writing-related, not patient-related) but was a case of ignorance, not ill intent. Which doesn't justify it by any stretch of the imagination and I don't necessarily disagree with the decision, but that one "could" have been handled in other ways.

We've occasionally had people leave for personal reasons (decide they'd rather go to med school, want/need to be closer to family, etc.) none of which were truly program-related. In general, its quite a rare occurrence, many stay in touch with us and the faculty, and I don't have any reason to suspect the situation was any more upsetting on either end than is expected/justified.

In contrast, a lawsuit was recently opened against the local FSPS by several dozen students for this very reason (letting them get almost to the end, then kicking them out for questionable reasons).

 

[Psychadelic2012]

I know someone at a FSPS who was "kicked out" (although now they are going to be allowed back). Not sure why, it was either for non-payment or sub-par grade in the first year.

I'd like to know the exact reasons for students getting kicked out in all of the above examples. Do you all feel comfortable saying? It's just all so vague as it is written now (i.e., ethical how?). Feel free to PM me and I can list the reasons anonymously.

 

[psychRA]

I'm curious about the specific reasons as well, if people are comfortable listing them. My one friend was dismissed for what sounds like a pretty concrete reason (failing comps a handful of times), but I'd like to hear more about the vaguer situations.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

In contrast, a lawsuit was recently opened against the local FSPS by several dozen students for this very reason (letting them get almost to the end, then kicking them out for questionable reasons).

That is one way to thin the herd before match applications....it'll be interesting to see if the lawsuit gains any traction.

 

[weeblewobble]

I'm curious about the specific reasons as well, if people are comfortable listing them. My one friend was dismissed for what sounds like a pretty concrete reason (failing comps a handful of times), but I'd like to hear more about the vaguer situations.

The one I thought was more ambivalent was due to having not achieved milestones (e.g., thesis, comps, proposal) as a quite advanced student. I felt ambivalent about it because the student was competent in other areas and had personal things going on that likely slowed their progress.

I can't be too specific about the other without identifying my program, but the student was probably Axis II and did some disruptive and unethical things that impacted their fellow students, the faculty, and the clinic.

 

[Ollie123]

That is one way to thin the herd before match applications....it'll be interesting to see if the lawsuit gains any traction.

I'm expecting a settlement (hah, one that might just barely cover their loans) - the schools won't want to drag this out, and definitely won't want to risk courts ruling against them as it could set a precedent that completely destroys their chance of survival. Then again given who owns them I imagine their lawyer army can crush whoever is representing the students.

I'm also fairly certain its a way to boost their match numbers, perhaps in anticipation of possible changes to APA accreditation regarding match rates. Honestly, I have mixed feelings about it. Fewer people graduating from these schools is a good thing, and given the people they DO give degrees I would hate to see how stunningly incompetent one would have to be in order to be in danger of getting kicked out. That said, obviously stringing them along to milk every bit of money from them you can before yanking the rug out of the last minute just to boost your numbers is supervillain-caliber evil.

 

[thewesternsky]

I only know of one student who was put on probation and eventually asked to leave a clinical program. In this case, it was because of pretty dramatically unprofessional conduct (most significantly, repeatedly missing appointments with clients in the in-house clinic).

 

[Psychadelic2012]

I'll list any PM'd reasons for getting kicked out here (written in my own words):

- Student with a physical disability that did not allow him/her to conduct IQ tests. Student sought out accommodations/solutions through the test company/ies, but in the end the program sent the student away. Yes, the program knew about the disability when they admitted the student.

 

[Pragma]

I'll list any PM'd reasons for getting kicked out here (written in my own words):

- Student with a physical disability that did not allow him/her to conduct IQ tests. Student sought out accommodations/solutions through the test company/ies, but in the end the program sent the student away. Yes, the program knew about the disability when they admitted the student.

Wow, that is definitely a lawsuit waiting to happen....

 

[becomethelight]

Not in my program, but I know of at least one from a local Psy.D. program in my area (not FSPS). Not sure of all of the specifics, but it had to do with either cheating or plagiarism. I also believe that when this student was dismissed from the program, they then were accepted to a nearby FSPS, and later had trouble matching (although ultimately did).

 

[Pragma]

Not in my program, but I know of at least one from a local Psy.D. program in my area (not FSPS). Not sure of all of the specifics, but it had to do with either cheating or plagiarism. I also believe that when this student was dismissed from the program, they then were accepted to a nearby FSPS, and later had trouble matching (although ultimately did).

Wow, why am I not surprised? 😡

 

[becomethelight]

Yeah, I tried not to pass judgement on that but it is hard not to.

 

[Pragma]

Yeah, I tried not to pass judgement on that but it is hard not to.

It just speaks to how terrible having low admissions standards is. "Academic integrity violations? No problem. Now, can you tell me what date you submitted your FAFSA?"

 

[coloradocutter]

I love most of the people in my program and my major professor, but while he has a 0% attrition rate our program has about a 23% attrition rate. Of the folk that have left while I have been here, most were inappropriate on the part of one administrator and the students had younger and (weaker) major professors/mentors. I think when you see this type of thing it is a signal that there is something going on with the DCT or the Chair, or both. You cannot have everything you want in grad school mentors but my advice is go to the program where you think you will have the best relationship with your mentor AND your mentor is a senior professor who fights for his students. Preferably he or she would be senior to the DCT and or Chair or served in one of those roles. That is a perfect world. I was very fortunate to have those things. I don't think that I could have gotten through grad school in anyone else's lab.

 

[deleted190534]

I went to a respected, fully funded PhD program (cohorts of approx 6 students). 5 students were dismissed during my time there and one more was nearly dismissed. In 2 cases it was appropriate, one it was clearly NOT appropriate, and in 2 cases it was unclear. Interestingly, at least one of those students does not appear in the schools published data on attrition.

It should be said that I went to a program where a lot of shady things happened and the faculty are pretty disturbed. 🙁

Best,
Dr. E

Not surprising...& sounds similar to my program (completely funded/PhD). Students here often describe our program as "having an illness." Some students have been involuntarily dismissed from our program. More disturbing though, is that the faculty will actively work to bend the rules for students who they "like"...irrespective of competency. Thus, 2 students can commit exactly the same set of infractions, but the less-connected, less-schmoozing, less-brown-nosing one will be dismissed, while the other will be saved. IMO, PhDs should not be earned by ability to smile, CYA, & work the system. PhDs should be earned by merit & competency.

 

[Sanman]

Not surprising...& sounds similar to my program (completely funded/PhD). Students here often describe our program as "having an illness." Some students have been involuntarily dismissed from our program. More disturbing though, is that the faculty will actively work to bend the rules for students who they "like"...irrespective of competency. Thus, 2 students can commit exactly the same set of infractions, but the less-connected, less-schmoozing, less-brown-nosing one will be dismissed, while the other will be saved. IMO, PhDs should not be earned by ability to smile, CYA, & work the system. PhDs should be earned by merit & competency.

Sadly, very little in this world are earned by merit and competency alone.

 

[deleted190534]

True. Sad state of affairs...

 

[Psychadelic2012]

the less-connected, less-schmoozing, less-brown-nosing one will be dismissed, while the other will be saved. IMO, PhDs should not be earned by ability to smile, CYA, & work the system. PhDs should be earned by merit & competency.

There are a few other unmentionables that would make this list at my program--and they have absolutely nothing to do with merit or competency.

 

[PhDMiss2014]

My program has pretty well defined milestones and one student is currently on "probation" for not meeting several milestones. She has been given a year to clear up her deficiencies. If she fails to do so then she will be dismissed. Other then that, my program has had a few students leave in their first year of the program and no one has been dismissed in my 5 years in the program.

 

[undecidedman]

So what reasons are people being dismissed for?

 

[Resident92]

i went to a respected, fully funded phd program (cohorts of approx 6 students). 5 students were dismissed during my time there and one more was nearly dismissed. In 2 cases it was appropriate, one it was clearly not appropriate, and in 2 cases it was unclear. Interestingly, at least one of those students does not appear in the schools published data on attrition.

It should be said that i went to a program where a lot of shady things happened and the faculty are pretty disturbed. 🙁

best,
dr. E

wow!