Kidney Problems

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Lady Tokimi

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I'm sure you all heard how kidneys can stop functioning correctly and requires dialysis. You also know that dialysis is required because the kidney is not absorbing / filtering properly, which means the body can't get rid of the waste.

I guess my question is, how do you know if the kidneys are absorbin water, etc. And how long are the onset of symptoms?
 
Lady Tokimi said:
I guess my question is, how do you know if the kidneys are absorbin water, etc. And how long are the onset of symptoms?

One of the measures of renal function is Glomerular filtration rate (GFR). It is estimated by the clearance of Inulin.

Clearance = volume of plasma from which a substance is sequestered in the urine per unit time

Inulin = a compound which is freely filtered at Bowman's capsule and neither reabsorbed nor secreted.

*Note: Inulin is injected

GFR = (concentration of inulin in plasma)(rate of urine production)/(concentration of urine in plasma)

One symptom of renal failure is oligouria/anuria (decreased/absent production of urine). The onset of symptoms depends on the etiology of the disease. In an acute toxicity or an acute type II hypersensitivity, it may be very rapid. In hypertensive kidney disease, it may be very gradual.
 
Callogician said:
It is estimated by the clearance of Inulin.
I may be wrong (esp since I haven't started med school) but isn't GFR the estimated clearance of Creatinine not Insulin?

The only reason I say this is that I am working on a clinical trial regarding kidney functioning and specifially GFR. And the GFR is estimated from the serum creatinine level, Age, Race, and Sex.

My knowledge of the subject is limited since I know mostly about my study, but I am pretty sure its creatinine.


----
one of the sites I found that goes into the insulin thing so I guess we are both right http://renux.dmed.ed.ac.uk/EdREN/Handbookbits/HDBKgfrest.html
 
One big thing is always remember the clinical picture...the kidney failure may be caused by inadequate hydration/decreased cardiac function etc...if that's the case, the specifics of what's going wrong where with kidneys isn't as important as treating the underlying cause.

In addition to a good history/physical, some of the lab parameters you inquired about that may be helpful include:

- Serum BUN/ Creatinine (the magnitude of each and ratio of the two both provide clues about kidney function)
- Serum Potassium / Sodium/bicarb (give clues about function of various pumps along the nephron)
- Urine Specific Gravity
- Urine Electrolytes
 
Inulin is an exogenous substance that is filtered but not reabsorbed or secreted, so it can give a pretty accurate picture of GFR. Clinically, however, they tend to just measure createnine clearance. The ration of bloof urea nitrogen (BUN) to createnine is also helpful

As for the kidneys not working and onset of symptoms, it can really depend on the problem. For something hyperacute, you might see symptoms right away whereas more insidious processes may have a longer onset with more systemic compensation.

Depending on the problem, symptoms can range from inability to concentrate urine, inability to dilute urine, high or low serum potassium (and all the fun stuff that goes with that) hypocalcemia, hypercalcemia, anemia, hypertension, hypovolemia, edema, etc. etc. etc. Really, the kidneys do so much that "dysfunction" can be all over the map.

As far as water reabsorption/excretion goes, a lot of it depends on aldosterone and AHD levels. Water balance is a big nasty can of worms -- Is there something specific you want to know? Your question is pretty general.
 
bigdreamer said:
I may be wrong (esp since I haven't started med school) but isn't GFR the estimated clearance of Creatinine not Insulin?

Inulin, not insulin.

BTW, this is all theoretical - we don't actually measure inulin, clinically.
 
Blade28 said:
Inulin, not insulin.

BTW, this is all theoretical - we don't actually measure inulin, clinically.

oops read it wrong!
 
When trying to wrap your brain around renal failure, it is easiest to think about the 3 main types of renal failure: i.e. PRE-renal (problem is before the kidney), INTRA-Renal(damage to the kidney itself), and POST-Renal(obstruction after kidney).

Prerenal failure is usually caused by hypovolemia, whether that is by sepsis, severe dehydration, CHF (decreased perfusion), among others. The kidneys get ischemic and slough off the tubular lining. Here you would see symptoms within 1-2 days of the initial insult. It progresses very rapidly with rising BUN/Cr, and can be fulminant (uremic encephalopathy) unless corrective measures are taken, i.e. IV NS boluses out the ass or dialysis in rare cases.

Intrarenal Failure is probably the most complicated, as it can be caused by a myriad of things, i.e. glomuleronephritis, rhabdomyolysis, Polycystic Kidney Dz, Hypercalcemia, Hypertension, Diabetes (most common cause), Lupus, other autoimmune Dz, the list is long and distinguished. The timeline for symptoms is extremely varied, ranging from decades for DM and HTN, to hours/days for certain types of glomerulonephritis. Treatment is directed at the underlying causes.

Postrenal is the most simple. Something past or at the Uretero-Pelvic Junction is blocking the outflow of urine, thus causing elevated BUN/Cr. Treatment is to remove the obstruction. This is usually caused by prostatic hypertrophy or stones.
 
burlypie said:
As far as water reabsorption/excretion goes, a lot of it depends on aldosterone and AHD levels. Water balance is a big nasty can of worms -- Is there something specific you want to know? Your question is pretty general.

Can kidney failure lead to frequent urges of urination? Also, can kidney failure increase urine volume? or can it only decrease?? Someone had mentioned concentration of urine........if your kidney fails, can you still concentrate urine or will it just look like water??
 
Lady Tokimi said:
Can kidney failure lead to frequent urges of urination? Also, can kidney failure increase urine volume? or can it only decrease?? Someone had mentioned concentration of urine........if your kidney fails, can you still concentrate urine or will it just look like water??

relax, you're not in renal failure. Unless you have lupus, diabetes, are peeing blood, or are swollen up like a balloon I'll bet the barn your GFR is ~120
 
velo said:
relax, you're not in renal failure. Unless you have lupus, diabetes, are peeing blood, or are swollen up like a balloon I'll bet the barn your GFR is ~120

What about bladder infection?? Without the common pain during urination? or pretty much non of the common symptoms except urges to urinate?
 
Lady Tokimi said:
What about bladder infection?? Without the common pain during urination? or pretty much non of the common symptoms except urges to urinate?

yes, bladder infections would ussually be associated with dysuria, pain or burning on urination.

How much ya drinking? Do you have to pee all the time AND are thristy all the time or do you just feel like you have to go all the time? (for next year, polyuria AND polydipsia?)
 
velo said:
yes, bladder infections would ussually be associated with dysuria, pain or burning on urination.

How much ya drinking? Do you have to pee all the time AND are thristy all the time or do you just feel like you have to go all the time? (for next year, polyuria AND polydipsia?)

No, not thirsty all the time. Just feel like peeing even after peeing. Cranberry juice???
 
Lady Tokimi said:
No, not thirsty all the time. Just feel like peeing even after peeing. Cranberry juice???

Yeah its certainly possible that you have an infection that's just not producing dysuria...You can try cranberry juice--that actually has a physiological basis in that it disrupts the ability of E. Coli pili to adhere to the epithelium.

What you're describing "needing to pee even after peeing", if really true, sounds like you have an increased postvoid residual volume (abnormal amount of urine left in the bladder). But the two main culprits of that, obstruction and poor detruser contractility, are unlikely given the fact that you're "Lady Tokimi" posting in a med student forum...meaning you probably don't have a prostate and you're probably pretty young and healthy.

So, I think you should pay attention to how much you're drinking and make sure you're not taking in a ridiculous amount of free water (water with no solutes, eg salt/sugar), see if you're drinking a lot of caffeine which is a weak diuretic, and if it still really bothers you go see a doctor and get a urinalysis. The UA should be able to at least rule in a UTI.

Good luck
 
It sounds like she is describing overactive bladder, or urge incontinence. You wouldn't typically see a weak detrusor muscle in somebody who has never been pregnant, not had a spinal cord injury, or doesn't have a prostate to obstruct the urethra.
 
Feeling like peeing after finishing is a classic UTI symptom...just ask any girl who has ever had one. LT -- if you feel like something's wrong or different, go to your doctor. that's what s/he's there for!
 
Radiohead said:
It sounds like she is describing overactive bladder, or urge incontinence. You wouldn't typically see a weak detrusor muscle in somebody who has never been pregnant, not had a spinal cord injury, or doesn't have a prostate to obstruct the urethra.

yeah, I mentioned the lack of prostate/no reason to suspect weak detrusor...

I don't think she has overactive bladder because she's not describing any incontinence or even near misses, and in her age group this is almost certainly a UTI

Either that or she just discovered Figi and doesn't realize how much water she's drinking!
 
BTW, the OP should go see her doctor for real medical advice. Not random stabs by 1st and 2nd year medical students w/o even examining the patient.
 
Lady Tokimi said:
What about bladder infection?? Without the common pain during urination? or pretty much non of the common symptoms except urges to urinate?

I suspect the original poster has a personal question regarding this matter and may not be interested in the one paragraph regurgitations on kidney physiology. Gee, what nerds. 😀
 
Radiohead said:
BTW, the OP should go see her doctor for real medical advice. Not random stabs by 1st and 2nd year medical students w/o even examining the patient.

I agree, be sure to get a STD check too if that is a possibility.
 
velo said:
yeah, I mentioned the lack of prostate/no reason to suspect weak detrusor...

I don't think she has overactive bladder because she's not describing any incontinence or even near misses, and in her age group this is almost certainly a UTI

Either that or she just discovered Figi and doesn't realize how much water she's drinking!

And yes, she may have a UTI. In that case, the wall of the bladder would be inflamed and would therefore cause irritation to the detrusor muscle. That would, in turn, cause erratic contractions, accounting for the urgency and frequency caused by a UTI. Either way, the pathogenesis of urgency and frequency is erratic bladder spasm and bladder mucosal edema caused by the inflammatory infiltrate. But, really, all we need is a UA to solve all our problems.
 
Radiohead said:
BTW, the OP should go see her doctor for real medical advice. Not random stabs by 1st and 2nd year medical students w/o even examining the patient.

exactly. sorry OP but SDN can't be used to solicit medical advice. if you think you have a problem, please go see your doctor.

closing
 
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