Kind of messed up, looking for advice

[mdphdincoming]

Hi everyone! I'm a freshman at a T10 undergrad. I've wanted to do MD/PhD since high school, as I want a career where my research interests can be informed by my clinical interests. I've always been interested in translational medicine and the MD/PhD path seems like the best way for me to achieve that. Unfortunately some things have gotten in the way, and I'm rather anxious about what to do next.

The first 3 months in my lab went relatively well. However, I made several safety-related mistakes over the course of a month, and my graduate student told me she wasn't comfortable with supervising me in a wet-lab environment anymore. Luckily, another graduate student in my lab did computational work, and so I switched to working with him.

With the pandemic, I haven't been able to do much computational work, as I don't have much CS experience and my new graduate student has been swamped with other work. I was seriously considering switching labs and starting anew, as I've found out that I also enjoy learning CS and I think I would be interested in working in a computational medicine lab.

However, I decided to stick it out, as I didn't want my PI's recommendation letter to be weakly positive at best, and I really enjoy the environment of the lab that I work in. Additionally, I won a grant from my university to work on a small independent project in the current PI's lab, and the PI was incredibly helpful in finding me another mentor who would be willing to supervise me for wet-lab work.

Essentially, I don't know what to do at this stage in my undergraduate career. I'm excited about completing the wet-lab work for the grant I won, but I don't know if I should stay on after the project is done. I just don't want to screw up my chances of getting into a program. I know it's early in the process but could someone give me some advice on what they think I should do?

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[turtle114]

If I were you I would:

1) Calm down

2) Figure out what was causing you to make mistakes (going too fast? not writing things down?) A lot of incoming students (particularly those with grand aspirations) are over confident in lab leading them to make unforced errors. If you just started in a lab and already have lost a mentor, that's not a great sign for your future success with executing the grant project.

3) Take CS classes if you're interested. After this year evaluate how things are going and either stay in the lab or switch, but keep in mind that it is much easier to get publications etc if you stay in one lab throughout undergrad. (But don't stay in a toxic situation.)

 

[mdphdincoming]

If I were you I would:

1) Calm down

2) Figure out what was causing you to make mistakes (going too fast? not writing things down?) A lot of incoming students (particularly those with grand aspirations) are over confident in lab leading them to make unforced errors. If you just started in a lab and already have lost a mentor, that's not a great sign for your future success with executing the grant project.

3) Take CS classes if you're interested. After this year evaluate how things are going and either stay in the lab or switch, but keep in mind that it is much easier to get publications etc if you stay in one lab throughout undergrad. (But don't stay in a toxic situation.)

Thank you so much for your advice!

The main thing, I think, was lack of attention to detail. It's been a problem for me for a very long time and when my graduate student let me go, she said that that was her main problem with me as well - I didn't check whether equipment had been turned off/put away/closed properly and that's where the majority of my errors came from. I'm not really sure how to fix this, might you have any ideas?

I'm currently taking introduction to Python and I'm enjoying that. One thing I'm thinking of doing is learning how to do data analysis with Python - almost everyone in my lab does wet-lab bench work, so being able to analyze their data for them might help me get on publications. That way I can stay in the lab too. Do you think this might work?

 

[hellothere69420]

It is a really bad thing getting dropped by a grad mentor. It shows a huuuuuuge flaw in how you're working. Grad students shouldn't expect you to know much, but if you're acting so dangerously that you're getting dropped then you need to figure out how to fix it, not just shrug and say you don't know how to.

 

[mdphdincoming]

It is a really bad thing getting dropped by a grad mentor. It shows a huuuuuuge flaw in how you're working. Grad students shouldn't expect you to know much, but if you're acting so dangerously that you're getting dropped then you need to figure out how to fix it, not just shrug and say you don't know how to.

I understand that, that's why I'm asking for help. Do you have any strategies that you use that might help me out in fixing it?

 

[turtle114]

Re: attention to detail, just start with the basics. Don't worry about your MD/PhD application, worry about successfully completing an experiment from start to finish. That means, before you start write out exactly what you're going to do, every step including Turn X on, Turn X off, put pipettes back, etc. Check off each task as you go. It might feel ridiculous but better to take your time and do things right than mess up your chance to succeed in science for no reason.

 

[tortuga87]

You have met your first person who is toxic to your goals. You will meet many of these people throughout your career. The reason why you are feeling anxious is likely because you do not have many other options. The general strategy is to "build and rinse" - i.e., build up your options and then rinse out the toxic people. This is kind of built into graduate programs already by rotations, but you need to do it on your own during undergrad.

You build options by continuously acquiring skills that many ppl do not have but are in demand (e.g., Python programming) + applying out regularly to other labs/jobs/internships even if things may be going well because you may get something better. The reason why you do this is because everything good is temporary (with few exceptions like family). You may think you have a wonderful work environment, and you probably do for years, but something bad is likely to happen because things change. People do not great grants, promotions, the new person sucks, etc.

In this case, this means trying to make amends with the lab you are already in (because it is the only option you have atm) but applying to other places as well with the intent of leaving if something better pops up

 

[toofastdan]

Re: attention to detail, just start with the basics. Don't worry about your MD/PhD application, worry about successfully completing an experiment from start to finish. That means, before you start write out exactly what you're going to do, every step including Turn X on, Turn X off, put pipettes back, etc. Check off each task as you go. It might feel ridiculous but better to take your time and do things right than mess up your chance to succeed in science for no reason.

I completely agree with this. When I first started in lab I made the mistake of not turning off a microscope and it resulted in the bulb burning out

Following complex wet-lab techniques for the first time can be overwhelming. What I like to do is write out a protocol. Ask your lab if there is a protocol that you can follow. I highly recommend personalizing the protocol, taking your previous mistakes into account. This way, you will remember never to repeat a mistake.

To make amends with your grad student, I would send them a written plan of how you plan on carrying out an experiment. Encourage them to edit this according to how they want the experiment done. This shows responsibility and professionalism. I hope this helps out!

 

[mdphdincoming]

Thank you so much to everyone who responded with ideas and suggestions. I really like the idea of writing out absolutely everything - I feel like if I have to idiot-proof my experiments, then I guess that's just the way to go. This may be slightly unorthodox, but I'm going to try learning how to cook during the quarantine. After all, cooking is basically following a protocol and personalizing it to your own tastes. Maybe it'll make me a better experimenter.

@tortuga87 You make an interesting point. I don't think my old grad student was trying to be toxic, as they gave me multiple chances to improve - I just kept screwing up, and I accept responsibility for that. How would you suggest applying out to other labs/internships that require recommendation letters? After all, my PI or grad student would be the person writing those letters as my research supervisor.

 

[chairlover188]

Something that always helps me in experiments is when my mentor shows me how to do something, I take a notepad and write EVERYTHING down. Every tiny detail - where the reagents are, what the mentor turns on first, where the equipment is, how long to vortex something. You'll probably miss things but if you get into the habit of noticing tiny details, it really helps. And once they've shown me how to do it once or twice, I ask them if they might observe me doing it once, so they can point out things that I miss. Then I can update my notes. This really, really helps for me, and I think it demonstrates diligence. PM me if you want to talk more!

As an anecdote, an HHMI scientist I once spoke to told me he did this to observe his mentor synthesizing peptides in the 80s at Stanford. Then, the next week, he could do it completely independently and bring said mentor a newly synthesized peptide, because he had taken such diligent notes.

 

[kitsunepixie]

Pardon me for mentioning this, but could you have untreated ADHD? I wouldn't just chalk it up to something that you don't know how to fix. You can be very intelligent yet be forgetful and absent-minded and this can destroy you. You need to dig deep and confront this issue very seriously because if you want to take care of patients, you need to have attention to detail and not forget critical steps.

 

[mdphdincoming]

@chairlover188 also excellent advice, the day before I get back into lab I'm going to read this thread over one more time just to take note of what everyone has been suggesting. I really don't want to mess up again, as someone who's super passionate about learning basic science it would really be crushing for me not to be able to do that.

EDIT: I tried to PM you, but it said I can't do that. Could you PM me more about that strategy?

@kitsunepixie my old graduate student wondered about that too, I'm not sure if it's worth getting tested for because I am able to focus on homework and things like that if I set my mind to it. I've noticed throughout my life that I can only really focus hard on one thing at a time, and when I am focusing on that one thing I forget literally everything else. I've lost an incredible number of jackets and pencils and erasers, I'm lucky my pants have pockets or I'd lose my phone every other day to be honest.

 

[Asteri]

Thank you so much for your advice!

The main thing, I think, was lack of attention to detail. It's been a problem for me for a very long time and when my graduate student let me go, she said that that was her main problem with me as well - I didn't check whether equipment had been turned off/put away/closed properly and that's where the majority of my errors came from. I'm not really sure how to fix this, might you have any ideas?

I'm currently taking introduction to Python and I'm enjoying that. One thing I'm thinking of doing is learning how to do data analysis with Python - almost everyone in my lab does wet-lab bench work, so being able to analyze their data for them might help me get on publications. That way I can stay in the lab too. Do you think this might work?

If the main problem is making sure everything is in the right place/turned off/etc before you leave, it might help you to run through every piece of equipment you used that day and physically check on it. Go to every bunsen burner you used and make sure it is off, go to every refrigerator/freezer and make sure it is closed, if you used a microscope or spec then go over to it and make sure it is turned off, etc. I generally do a sweep like this before leaving lab - it only takes a minute or so to walk around and confirm everything is in order. If you are having trouble remembering all the equipment you need to deal with, you can write it down as you use it (especially things that are more important to turn off before leaving, like flame sources) and cross it off once you have confirmed it is dealt with.

 

[kitsunepixie]

@kitsunepixie my old graduate student wondered about that too, I'm not sure if it's worth getting tested for because I am able to focus on homework and things like that if I set my mind to it. I've noticed throughout my life that I can only really focus hard on one thing at a time, and when I am focusing on that one thing I forget literally everything else. I've lost an incredible number of jackets and pencils and erasers, I'm lucky my pants have pockets or I'd lose my phone every other day to be honest.

This is not an infrequent problem for people with ADHD. It's a misconception that ADHD is limited to a short attention span only. It's called hyperfocus. Hyperfocus and the ADHD Brain: Intense Fixation with ADD I think it is very worth looking into this because this is your entire future we are talking about here. Do you want to have your dreams destroyed because of something for which you can obtain help?

 

[mdphdincoming]

If the main problem is making sure everything is in the right place/turned off/etc before you leave, it might help you to run through every piece of equipment you used that day and physically check on it. Go to every bunsen burner you used and make sure it is off, go to every refrigerator/freezer and make sure it is closed, if you used a microscope or spec then go over to it and make sure it is turned off, etc. I generally do a sweep like this before leaving lab - it only takes a minute or so to walk around and confirm everything is in order. If you are having trouble remembering all the equipment you need to deal with, you can write it down as you use it (especially things that are more important to turn off before leaving, like flame sources) and cross it off once you have confirmed it is dealt with.

I'm certainly going to have to add this to all my protocols! Just this one minute sweep would have saved me so many issues over the past couple months.

 

[mdphdincoming]

This is not an infrequent problem for people with ADHD. It's a misconception that ADHD is limited to a short attention span only. It's called hyperfocus. Hyperfocus and the ADHD Brain: Intense Fixation with ADD I think it is very worth looking into this because this is your entire future we are talking about here. Do you want to have your dreams destroyed because of something for which you can obtain help?

I talked to my parents about it today. They're...less than willing to get me tested, to say the least. May have to just figure out ways to get around it I guess.

 

[kitsunepixie]

I talked to my parents about it today. They're...less than willing to get me tested, to say the least. May have to just figure out ways to get around it I guess.

Are you an adult? What do they have to do with it?

 

[mdphdincoming]

Are you an adult? What do they have to do with it?

Yes, I'm an adult, but I'm at home from college right now and I'm on their health insurance. Don't really have the ability to drive to the doctor myself.