Lab environment: normal/abnormal, deal/leave?

[ScarlettOHara]

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I know a lot of you pre-meds are also working in labs so I am hoping you can give me some perspective. I'm having an unpleasant experience in a new lab right now and I need insight on whether to just put up with it because that's how some places are or if I should get out ASAP. This post is long. I wanted to give concrete details rather than just sound like I'm whining. Maybe you'll think I'm whining nonetheless...

A little background:
As an undergrad I worked in a lab that was focused but still nice. They saw that I was competent and even trusted me to work on a project completely on my own for a semester while my post doc was on pregnancy leave. After undergrad I worked in a lab that was more sociable--happy hours, bi-weekly lab meetings, journal club, open door policy with PI, etc. They also saw I was competent and as a lab tech I was given a general project and was responsible for figuring out my own day-to-day activities in order to get it all done and analyzed--my PI trusted me to present the results, no need to look at my every slide/data point. They wish I hadn't left and have nothing but positive comments about me.

Now:
I just started in a new lab (I am a non-trad, will be applying next cycle. I moved cities so I couldn't stick with the last lab). The institution is at the same high level as my undergrad and my first tech job. I joined this lab because the PI seemed very ambitious and the project seemed interesting. Three weeks in I'm wondering if I made a big mistake.

The PI is rude and creates a stifling environment. His tone is inappropriate with everyone in the lab and he gets ticked at the slightest things. He has developed a reputation with the labs we share space with and the last tech left because she couldn't deal with him anymore (in fact, she emailed the current post-doc warning her not to join). He is a major micromanager--looks over my shoulder while I'm on the computer, while I'm making slides, while I'm staining, while I'm doing anything and everything. He gives me an agenda at the beginning of each day. When I asked if we could do more of a project timeline/weekly agenda he said he would have to see my major interest in the theory of the project before being able to do that (I have a feeling it's going to take more than that with his personality though). He says I'm only an extra set of his hands.

He primarily gives negative feedback (I'm am kicking butt with technique, the rest of the lab tells me so, but he will only comment on the 1 or 2 things I could do slightly better) and also speaks negatively about the other members of the lab--says the other tech won't get to that level of interest/understanding the theory and even says things about the post doc. Examples: post doc taught me to do PCR with X ul of water. He found out and was furious, because in HIS lab he wants us to use X+0.5 ul of water, tells me not to pick up "bad habits" from others. He yelled at me and told me that hers don't even work (they do) and took a pen to all of my notes and crossed out her numbers and put in his. He told her to look at something under the microscope with me. She had already shown me how on 2 occasions so she was going to let me do it alone this time. He found out and was fuming. Instead he took the slides and looked at them himself, said he couldn't risk me breaking it since it's such a costly piece of equipment. Then said that the post-doc doesn't even know what she's doing. (She knows more than him regarding the microscope actually, and if he really thought that he wouldn't have told me to look with her in the first place.).

Basically, he is tightly, tightly wound. Rude, demeaning, micromanaging, and has super high expectations. Says working 9-5 won't get anyone in the lab on a paper, must work nights and weekends for that, must read copious amounts of papers to not be excessively micromanaged--basically act like a grad student. And I still don't know if that will be enough given how easily he says negative things about his VERY competent post doc.

As a pre-med my focus is studying for the MCAT and getting things together for my app. Obviously I know I need to understand what is going on in the lab--I've been a tech before and was very good at my job, I get the usual expectations. However, I'm fearful that if I stay here it will suck all my energy and take away from my real goal in life (and also just having a life: going to the gym, making it back for dinner, etc.).

Do I need to just suck it up? Is this just another version of normal that I hadn't experienced? Or, should I be looking for another job? Part of me knows I'm strong and could deal with it if my life depended on it (although the first day he showed his true colors and yelled at me twice for no real reason I cried after in the bathroom, I was just so taken aback by the totally undeserved rudeness; since then I just seethe while he yells but have a complete poker face) and that the economy is very tough. Another part of me thinks, but why should I put up with this when people have the same type of job under much less stress?

If you've managed to read the whole post please give me your insight, any insight. I need to figure out whether to fully commit and get into all the background research or if I should look for something else and start thinking about putting in my 2 weeks notice.

 

[type12]

My experience, this is the norm in every lab I've worked in, without exception. However, I'm not so jaded to believe it is true in all cases (I know the problem-makers and handle them accordingly). In all cases, I had PI's apologize after I left.

Most likely, your boss has been burned before by someone in your position (i.e., the person who left may have actually been so bad he had to micromanage her), or it's grant season and money is a real issue.

 

[deleted329605]

I lucked out with my lab. Very laid back hands off approach. Although he was older and already established.

Is your PI younger? Maybe more ambitious to make a name? Regardless, I feel sorry for you, but hang in there. It is only temporary.

 

[Jas1360]

I have only worked in one lab and I love it. We have a lab meeting once a week. I meet with him once a week to let him know how the project is going. Otherwise the people in the lab basically manage themselves.

I have worked with someone like your PI but it was not in the science field. In my situation I put forth the effort and made sure to learn from everything he said. If your boss wants things done a certain way, just do it that way and everything is good. But, if you want to be more in control of your project you may have to sit down and talk to him. If he leads you to believe that will never happen, you will have to choose to stay or go.

 

[ScarlettOHara]

So what I'm getting so far is that although this situation isn't close to ideal it isn't necessarily abnormal? It's pretty sad that the research field has so many jerks then.

I wish it were the case that he had been burned in the past because then I would know that if I don't screw up badly maybe it will work out, but I've been told the past tech was extremely good yet he only brought up the negative with this tech. Although that's hearsay I can see that being possible since, as I mentioned, his current post doc is incredibly involved and smart and he makes negative comments, flat out lies, about her performance when he's suddenly in a nasty mood. It's weird, during the interview I thought he seemed like a nice guy, super into his work but still nice and very willing to give you a chance. Totally wrong, I feel pretty bad for his family actually, it's not like they can think it's only temporary.

 

[Jas1360]

That's too bad that you couldn't tell his personality at the interview. I had several people I had thought about doing research with. After asking around I heard good things about all but one researcher. I was warned by almost everyone I talked to that they were not an easy person to work with.

So the real question is will you be able to learn? Can you tolerate the person long enough to finish?

If not, hurry up and find a new job so you can leave. Just remember to be professional and give proper notice.

 

[type12]

So what I'm getting so far is that although this situation isn't close to ideal it isn't necessarily abnormal? It's pretty sad that the research field has so many jerks then.

I wish it were the case that he had been burned in the past because then I would know that if I don't screw up badly maybe it will work out, but I've been told the past tech was extremely good yet he only brought up the negative with this tech. Although that's hearsay I can see that being possible since, as I mentioned, his current post doc is incredibly involved and smart and he makes negative comments, flat out lies, about her performance when he's suddenly in a nasty mood. It's weird, during the interview I thought he seemed like a nice guy, super into his work but still nice and very willing to give you a chance. Totally wrong, I feel pretty bad for his family actually, it's not like they can think it's only temporary.

True story: last lab I worked in, there was another premed (we'll call him Bob) who was very buddy-buddy with me. This lab had a... "super PI" with multiple PIs working under him (don't want to say the actual title because it's self-proclaimed and the first hit on google). Anyway, Bob even convinced the super PI to let me work under Bob's PI despite my background and qualifications being suited to a different PI's work.

I honestly thought he was watching out for me. However, his whole behavior was motivated by my expired MCAT being one point higher than his (he asked on the first day, and I'm generally frank about things). Bob started wanting me to fabricate lab data, since he had an interview at NYU and wanted to impress them with 10 pubs in a year (he was too busy taking care of med school stuff and wanted me to fill in for him). On principle (I'm a lover of science), I refused. When something didn't work and came to the attention of the super PI, I'd get blamed. I started to wonder if most of their publications are fake. When they saw I wouldn't play the game with them, then the most convoluted scheme to get me fired started...

In addition to trying to "reveal" that I've been making up data, he also started ordering materials under my name. When I asked him about it, Bob said, "yeah, don't worry about it, sometimes Company X mixes up names on orders." But Company X doesn't even know I exist...

The PI and Bob started to present this mounting evidence against me to the super PI. I didn't throw them under the bus, but I adamantly swore I did not place the orders or provide the fake data. Lucky for me, one of the companies sent an invoice to my email, and sure enough, the order was made by Bob and the shipping address was under my name. When I presented this to the super PI, the PI and Bob finally backed down. The super PI politely pointed out that I'm expendable, but the PI is not, so he'd like me to leave on amicable terms and would be happy to write me a medical school recommendation since my interactions with him have been nothing but impressive.

Bob is now in med school and has a few Science publications under his belt. I'm somewhere on a footnote for a different PI, I think. I never finished applying that year because of this whole mess (didn't bother taking the August MCAT even). The creepiest thing was, I sent an AMCAS to this school I was working at. I called off-handedly and the adcom woman said, "Yes, we've received your AMCAS, along with a committee letter, and a letter from Dr. X (the PI, not the super PI)." I never asked him for one.

TL;DR: Faking data and getting pubs for it helped a premed get in, and this premed really wanted me out of the competition despite my already weak application stats. Research can suck more than you think. Stay honest.

 

[ScarlettOHara]

Honestly, as much as I dislike his attitude I think I'm most worried about the time commitment. With trying to take the MCAT in January really getting involved in the lab now, in the way he wants me to, might take up too much time and leave me really drained. On the other hand, not exceeding his expectations will in turn make his attitude worse. I read about people with no classes, just a part time job and some volunteering studying for this and feeling like they don't have enough time. Forget a full time +++ job with a super long commute and an SO trying to tackle this.

 

[type12]

Honestly, as much as I dislike his attitude I think I'm most worried about the time commitment. With trying to take the MCAT in January really getting involved in the lab now, in the way he wants me to, might take up too much time and leave me really drained. On the other hand, not exceeding his expectations will in turn make his attitude worse. I read about people with no classes, just a part time job and some volunteering studying for this and feeling like they don't have enough time. Forget a full time +++ job with a super long commute and an SO trying to tackle this.

Others may disagree, but I don't think research allows for MCAT studying. It really depends on how involved you are: if your PI expects you to come in at odd hours and weekends (just because the nature of research requires it), then you're revolving your life - and therefore study - around research. It's tough, but there are other jobs that stop at 5pm. If you find yourself in a constant drain and state of stress, I'd advise looking for something a bit more laid back. MCAT tutoring? Pharma Tech? Scribe? There's a bunch.

 

[ScarlettOHara]

@type12, wow that sounds like a crazy mess! I don't actually think this guy is capable of fabricating data. I think when he gets in his moods he lies in a way that he's not totally aware of. For example, if you're mad at your friend for something you would say, "I hate him, he's the worst friend anyway, he's never there for me" when in reality you know the person is a great friend, you're just losing it and saying ridiculous things because of our anger. Totally inappropriate for a PI though.

However, what you mentioned about never taking the MCAT that August or finishing your application that year because of all the mess, well THAT is what worries me. They seemed to have made the lab situation your life and your priority of becoming a doctor got put on the back burner. At the end of the day you were a footnote because of their craziness. I think that if I don't put in a ton of hours, just a few extra, I might screw up my own med chances AND not end up getting a publication also. Double loss. It's just impossible to give 100% of yourself to both the lab and the med process.

 

[WellWornLad]

If you don't need the job, get out now. There are plenty of lab jobs like the first couple you described - fun and productive. This guy will take credit for everything positive you accomplish, and rail on you any time you screw up.

I can't imagine him writing a halfway-decent letter of recommendation - in fact, you should avoid getting a letter from this type of personality. For him, not being a complete f^&*-up is a complement, and that's probably the best recommendation you'll get. The longer you spend in this lab, the harder it will be to satisfactorily explain why you left, and if you don't leave you'll be forced to get a letter from him (or explain why you didn't get one to adcoms).

It sounds like you've already got substantial research under your belt, and you've got your priorities straight with regards to the next year of your life. You don't need this grief, IMO.

 

[typicalindian]

I don't think you should put up with it. Your only temporarily doing it until you get into med school so why not find some place that you can be happy?

 

[impermanence]

If you don't need the job, get out now. There are plenty of lab jobs like the first couple you described - fun and productive. This guy will take credit for everything positive you accomplish, and rail on you any time you screw up.

I can't imagine him writing a halfway-decent letter of recommendation - in fact, you should avoid getting a letter from this type of personality. For him, not being a complete f^&*-up is a complement, and that's probably the best recommendation you'll get. The longer you spend in this lab, the harder it will be to satisfactorily explain why you left, and if you don't leave you'll be forced to get a letter from him (or explain why you didn't get one to adcoms).

It sounds like you've already got substantial research under your belt, and you've got your priorities straight with regards to the next year of your life. You don't need this grief, IMO.

+1

Your PI is not the norm (in my experience). It is not worth to stress and be unhappy while studying for the MCAT. Research (at least the kind I am used to) is interesting and engaging. Being in the right environment matters and you should be somewhere where you are valued and have the autonomy that you clearly have earned. Good luck and keep your chin up! This is not a reflection on you... We sometimes end up working with ppl like him. Do remember what you like/don't like so you may implement it once you are in you PI's position.

 

[Mountaineer12]

I've worked with my share of jerk PIs. Most of them have only been for the summer so obviously I just grinned and bared it. Another I only saw him a few times a month. The one I currently work for is nice, but has some micromanaging characteristics and is never around when you need them.

My point is that most PIs are going to suck for one reason or another. This does NOT sound like that. This sounds like one crazy, mean person. Find a new job and get out of there ASAP. You're right about him sucking the life out of you and no one deserves that.

 

[ScarlettOHara]

I'm not really sure what to put in a resignation letter though. If I say it's because of the time commitment he'll say he told me at the interview (he said he expected some extra work but it didn't seem like THIS much extra work) and I can't see putting the hostile work environment down as a problem because telling a mean person he is mean just makes them meaner and he'll perceive it as unprofessional. Especially if I give 2 weeks notice (which I'm guessing I should do?), that might be a nightmare. I feel like no matter what I write he'll take it as unprofessional for wanting to leave 3 weeks in and he could do something crazy like send in an unsolicited negative rec letter like how type12 was surprised.

 

[An MD Hopeful]

OP, I've had a wide range of experiences with PI's...one thing I've noticed about PI's like the one you are describing is that they will not write good LORs for their students. And a strong LOR is ultimately what you will need. I would strongly encourage you to search for another PI (one who has a good track record with mentoring students) and if you find a good one, then leave this PI.

You should try to find a PI who will be understanding of your time limitations as a premed student, especially when you need time to study for the MCAT, and who is willing to publish students.

 

[typicalindian]

I'm not really sure what to put in a resignation letter though. If I say it's because of the time commitment he'll say he told me at the interview (he said he expected some extra work but it didn't seem like THIS much extra work) and I can't see putting the hostile work environment down as a problem because telling a mean person he is mean just makes them meaner and he'll perceive it as unprofessional. Especially if I give 2 weeks notice (which I'm guessing I should do?), that might be a nightmare. I feel like no matter what I write he'll take it as unprofessional for wanting to leave 3 weeks in and he could do something crazy like send in an unsolicited negative rec letter like how type12 was surprised.

I doubt he'll send in a rec letter lol. Does he even know where you applied? Just be straight forward for him and resign. Are you working (read: getting paid) as a tech? If so then I suppose it should be a 2 week notice? If you are just volunteering there then no 2 week notice needed.

 

[An MD Hopeful]

I'm not really sure what to put in a resignation letter though. If I say it's because of the time commitment he'll say he told me at the interview (he said he expected some extra work but it didn't seem like THIS much extra work) and I can't see putting the hostile work environment down as a problem because telling a mean person he is mean just makes them meaner and he'll perceive it as unprofessional. Especially if I give 2 weeks notice (which I'm guessing I should do?), that might be a nightmare. I feel like no matter what I write he'll take it as unprofessional for wanting to leave 3 weeks in and he could do something crazy like send in an unsolicited negative rec letter like how type12 was surprised.

I doubt he would do that...just don't even tell him that you are applying to med schools. Even if he knows that you are premed, don't tell him when or where you are applying.

For letters to be matched to your application, they would some way or the other need an AMCAS ID and/or Letter ID linked to the letter. As long as he doesn't have access to your AMCAS information, he shouldn't be able to harm you.

 

[wholeheartedly]

Unfortunately labs like these aren't rare. I think it kind of self-perpetuates too undergrad gets dumped on by power tripping PI, so that's how he learns how to treat his students when he's a PI. I've seen PI's throw things, break things, yell, and act like temper tantruming 2 year olds, doctor data, and throw people under the bus when they got listed at 2% lower on a joint grant application than they wanted. Luckily I managed to be on the sidelines observing most of it instead of getting the brunt of it.

On the other the hand, labs that aren't like this exist too and can be an awesome environment to work in and I think the best thing to do would be to ask around and see if there are other PI's that you could work with to accomplish what you're hoping to accomplish. You could probably put up with, but it really is awesome to work with someone who gives you some good guidance and then lets you gain independence and develop solid skills. I switched out and got into different environment with a really mellow quiet PI and awesome doctoral student and learned a ton and had a blast. I don't regret switching for a minute. It wasn't worth it to stay.

 

[type12]

I'm not really sure what to put in a resignation letter though. If I say it's because of the time commitment he'll say he told me at the interview (he said he expected some extra work but it didn't seem like THIS much extra work) and I can't see putting the hostile work environment down as a problem because telling a mean person he is mean just makes them meaner and he'll perceive it as unprofessional. Especially if I give 2 weeks notice (which I'm guessing I should do?), that might be a nightmare. I feel like no matter what I write he'll take it as unprofessional for wanting to leave 3 weeks in and he could do something crazy like send in an unsolicited negative rec letter like how type12 was surprised.

Wow! No no, I wasn't trying to scare you about your application! My PI worked at a school I applied to, so he sent a letter. No other schools got the letter, so I think it was just one place he wanted to make sure I didn't get in. To be totally objective, I'll never know, they wouldn't give me a copy of the letter, so maybe it said glowing things as a form of apology lol (I doubt it, but anything's possible). He didn't send it via AMCAS, it was a letter sent directly to the school he worked at.

But studying, yes, you aren't going to be able to make med school a priority.

I guess I'm not the only one with a myriad of bad research experiences!

I'm just saying, there's little reward to stay where you are. Send a notice of separation, no need for 2 weeks. You do not need to mention this job at all, and he does not deserve an explanation. Burn this bridge since it leads nowhere.

 

[Ruminate]

A general note: all of these stories can be avoided with just some curiosity rather than just haphazardly joining a lab in the sake of "research interest" (even though most have really absolutely no clue what the field is). From these stories, the tendency of these pre-meds along with most other pre-meds is to gain as many publications for the sake of medical school, so what kind of lab do you join? The huge ones. Howard Hughes Medical institute professors. Endowed Professors. There's a reason these people get the huge funding and sit there with the title. You don't get to be the best of anything without some irregular behavior and/or quirks. These investigators are going to ask for the most out of everyone. Some will have dishonest, irrational, or condescending tendencies or very supportive, constructively critical, or understanding tendencies. The more productive labs may seem disarrayed but have a strong coagulation. I mention this because you also have to have some tough skin and be able to rebound quickly from any letdown.

You figure all this stuff out by 1) being in the lab and 2) asking alumni. Before you join any working environment which includes the lab, you need to not only be motivated to do the job but also ask alumni/people who were there...there's normally a list/connections that you can seek out. Just use some sense and judgment to filter out the opinions, especially the jaded ones.

For your situation, I'd just bounce. Right now, you're wanting to study your tail off for the MCAT. Additional sources of pressure / stress is not warranted. If your priority is medical school, focus on what you have to for that. I'd find another part-time that's less than 10 hours a week if it's money. Why are you researching? Figure out your reason...because if you're actually interested in researching, you're probably not going to just go for the MD.

PS: No, working like what you said really isn't like a grad student. It's really just anyone who is super interested/motivated will have those working tendencies, although your PI is rather extreme. Anyone who says they finished a PhD in an extremely quick amount of time all put in enormous amounts of time: whether it was in the lab or outside, whether the work was at the bench or not, there was a huge expenditure of efforts...the 7-10 years? Yeah, stuff doesn't work out. But most of the times, just look at their behavior...there's a reason they're not trained within the "national average."

 

[WellWornLad]

I'm not really sure what to put in a resignation letter though. If I say it's because of the time commitment he'll say he told me at the interview (he said he expected some extra work but it didn't seem like THIS much extra work) and I can't see putting the hostile work environment down as a problem because telling a mean person he is mean just makes them meaner and he'll perceive it as unprofessional. Especially if I give 2 weeks notice (which I'm guessing I should do?), that might be a nightmare. I feel like no matter what I write he'll take it as unprofessional for wanting to leave 3 weeks in and he could do something crazy like send in an unsolicited negative rec letter like how type12 was surprised.

All you can do is be as professional as possible. You can't control (and are not responsible) for how he interprets your behavior, especially if he is unreasonable. Here's a few tips:

Before you put in your notice or even bring the subject up, be prepared to leave right away (i.e., don't leave a lot of personal items around the lab). If he's *really* an unreasonable/sociopathic individual, it might be a good idea to have someone else dependable there as a witness to the fact that it was your idea to quit and that you were appropriate about it.

If he asks for an explanation, start general and get more specific only if you need to. Start by saying that you don't feel that this lab is a good fit. Then maybe go on to say that the environment is more structured/stressful than you are used to, that you don't feel trusted to work independently. If he still needs more you can go on to say that his leadership/management style doesn't work for you, but stay professional and don't get personal. You have to find your calm Zen center to do this right. Stay neutral and keep it brief - have examples ready but don't get distracted by tangents.

Don't argue with him - this isn't a democracy, this is a decision and one that is entirely yours to make. If he gets angry or insulting, let him know that you're not comfortable with his behavior, that this is precisely why you're leaving, and you'd think it'd be better if you parted ways now rather than putting in two weeks - end of conversation.

He may also offer to change things that you are not satisfied with. Decide beforehand if there's anything he could do that would keep you on and whether you can trust him to make these changes. Don't believe any vague promises of change to be worked out at a later date.

Best of luck.

 

[ScarlettOHara]

Good tips from everyone, thank you so much, seriously! Interesting how the tide mostly turned from just deal to leave.

I'm leaning towards leaving and putting in 2 weeks notice. I'd like to leave immediately but the money wouldn't hurt, getting a new job in this economy will be tough, I would at least know there was an end in sight, and I could do 9-5 because putting in extra wouldn't matter. There is a possibility that his temper could lead to him telling me to leave immediately but I think he knows I'm pretty good at what I do and he'd rather have me keep his project going while he gets someone else. Definitely not looking forward to this though.

Also, I wish I had been able to do more research on this place. However, I am new to this city and have no connections to this school. I interviewed with another member of the lab and received little warning--would have loved to have had full disclosure. And the people in the other labs who now tell me how awful he is, well those people couldn't have approached me while I was interviewing.