Lab P.I. not particularly happy with me

[lazyindy]

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I started research lab experience this past August in virology/immunology and my P.I. assigned me a small project to work on. Unfortunately I also took 15 credit hours simultaneously while working in the lab for 8 hours a week. This is a molecular biology based lab (cloning, PCR, ligations, insertions, etc.) and you cannot expect good results in a short amount of time. It took me a month to learn all of the techniques but when I finally got to cloning to desired plasmid into bacterial colonies, no colonies ever grew. Long story short I didn't complete the project last semester and now he is implying that I am not "interested" in his lab and that I should stop wasting his resources and time.

From his perspective it was an easy assignment but not so much for me since I had to learn every single step thoroughly and only had time for lab 1 day a week. I really don't want an LOR from him at this point but this is my first research experience. The problem is that I start my LAST semester of undergrad this week and don't know if any other professors/researchers would take me into their lab for just a semester? What should I do in this situation? Summer research programs also want LOR's from research supervisors and I don't know if I can get even a decent one out of my current P.I.

 

[deleted407021]

I've never worked in a lab, so take my word for what you think it's worth...

If you enjoy the work and believe that you can do better, I think you should stay. Talk with the PI and try to make him understand that you are serious and that you made a mistake or the learning curve was a bit much for everything else you had going on. If you really want to keep it up, you need to make sure he and you are in the same page. That's my guess, anyway. Even if the PI grudgingly lets you stay, you have a research experience. Best of luck.

 

[911 Turbo]

You gave up after one attempt at transformation?....

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

15 credits and 8 hours a week in lab isn't that much.

 

[Cmdr_Shepard]

You gave up after one attempt at transformation?....

I think he/she was skipping over the retries. I bet they tried several times with various modifications.

Though, having no colonies grow after a transformation says more about the PI's teaching method rather than this students research ability (considering it's the first lab). Hard to say for sure though, since we don't know the screening or selection methods used.

 

[MDOnlyWillDo]

Did you not have any techs available to show you proper technique and protocol? IF (and only if) you are eager to work on bettering your technique, convince him to give you another shot. Explain why you came up short recently, but that you will fix that (with his or someone else's help). That would be a good LOR- you persevered and stuck with a difficult task. If you are beyond doing anything to salvage your research experience and only want an LOR, he's right.

 

[Longshot6]

Sounds rough, did you not have anyone guiding you through the protocols at all? I have similar tasks to you and a graduate student is helping me to learn the proper procedures before actually carrying out the tests. Maybe you can ask you PI for a second chance?

 

[edgerock24]

Bench lab work is so unnecessary for premeds. Leave this kind of stuff to antisocial PhD candidates.

Sure, it looks good on an application, but a clinical research experience would be much more satisfying.

Patient exposure > boring, repetitive, lab work any day of the week.

 

[Cmdr_Shepard]

I disagree. But I suppose it's because I think physicians should be good scientists first.

 

[Aerus]

Maybe your study habits are the problem. You should not be struggling with 15 credits and 8 hours per week. In fact, 8 hours is very little time spent in the lab. I can't imagine being productive in any molecular bio lab with less than 12-15 hours per week. Many people even go up to 20 hours per week if they want to see results at a reasonable rate.

 

[Aerus]

Bench lab work is so unnecessary for premeds. Leave this kind of stuff to antisocial PhD candidates.

Sure, it looks good on an application, but a clinical research experience would be much more satisfying.

Patient exposure > boring, repetitive, lab work any day of the week.

Yes, because the science of medicine is all about looking at patients. There isn't any basic biology involved in medicine or anything at all. 🙄

 

[knv2u]

I started research lab experience this past August in virology/immunology and my P.I. assigned me a small project to work on. Unfortunately I also took 15 credit hours simultaneously while working in the lab for 8 hours a week. This is a molecular biology based lab (cloning, PCR, ligations, insertions, etc.) and you cannot expect good results in a short amount of time. It took me a month to learn all of the techniques but when I finally got to cloning to desired plasmid into bacterial colonies, no colonies ever grew. Long story short I didn't complete the project last semester and now he is implying that I am not "interested" in his lab and that I should stop wasting his resources and time.

From his perspective it was an easy assignment but not so much for me since I had to learn every single step thoroughly and only had time for lab 1 day a week. I really don't want an LOR from him at this point but this is my first research experience. The problem is that I start my LAST semester of undergrad this week and don't know if any other professors/researchers would take me into their lab for just a semester? What should I do in this situation? Summer research programs also want LOR's from research supervisors and I don't know if I can get even a decent one out of my current P.I.

Not to be rude, but I agree with the PI. All of these techniques are typically taught in intro bio classes/labs. It shouldn't have taken you more than 2-3 weeks at most to complete the entire thing including the entire process, not just growing the colonies. If you had problems, you should have asked for help.

 

[Aerus]

Not to be rude, but I agree with the PI. All of these techniques are typically taught in intro bio classes/labs. It shouldn't have taken you more than 2-3 weeks at most to complete the entire thing including the entire process, not just growing the colonies. If you had problems, you should have asked for help.

It varies from schools. General bio didn't teach any lab techniques at my school. Lab classes were all upper level (mostly juniors and seniors took them), so one would technically not learn how to pipette outside of research until their third year. So, I don't think that's a fair assumption of OP.

 

[knv2u]

It varies from schools. General bio didn't teach any lab techniques at my school. Lab classes were all upper level (mostly juniors and seniors took them), so one would technically not learn how to pipette outside of research until their third year. So, I don't think that's a fair assumption of OP.

But still, an entire semester with nothing to show for it? He could have asked other lab mates for help.

 

[knv2u]

Also, OP, did you use electroporation or a chemical treatment to make the cells competent? If nothing is growing and the media are fine, I am guessing this was the issue. Sometimes, you might need to use more than one method to induce bacterial competence.

 

[greinke]

sorry this is happening, it really is frustrating when you have the best intentions but get disappointing results.
as you said, since this is your last semester of undergrad you won't realistically get another lab position, unless your institution has ample positions. even if you did switch, it does not tell much about your perseverance and problem overcoming skills.

you'll have to try your best to fix this and communicate with your p.i.
like the above poster said, explain what you think you did wrong. ask what the p.i. thinks the problem is and how you can overcome it.
if 15 units and lab was too much, then you're gonna have to give up either your other less important commitments or even sleep.
8 hours of lab a week is not that much either. you can't expect to get anything done by going to lab once a week.
and don't be afraid to ask questions about lab techniques. even the smallest and what you think may be the dumbest details.
p.i.'s would rather answer those "dumb" questions and have you do the process right once rather than realize their experiment has been giving the wrong data because you didn't prepare the sample correctly. this costs money and time. each technique you run may cost anywhere from 100~500 dollars.

if the colonies you worked on didn't grow, the p.i. has every right to be upset. especially if you had the semester to work on the project. you should've went in during winter vacation to correct it but that's already the past. try to fix the problem and do whatever you can to make up for his work and your image.

 

[kevin2400]

15 credits and 8 hours a week in lab isn't that much.

+1.
Having time for only one day a week isn't going to cut it in bench research. What are you doing that is so busy that prevents you from coming in? I'm actually curious to hear how you could be THAT busy. I don't mean to be harsh, but if you're going to come in one day a week, then I'm going to have to side with your PI that to me is very clear that you are definitely not interested in it enough. If something is important to you, you will make time for it. It sucks, but it's just what it is, especially in research culture. It was not uncommon for many of my fellow (undergrad as well) colleagues to put in so many extra hours in the evening or on the weekends to complete an experiment and redo many failed ones. I have no idea how much 15 credits is, but to give you an idea for me, I took ~4~4.5 classes a quarter, was heavily involved in extracurriculars, and I still was able to dedicate enough time to research for at least a couple of hours a day (anywhere from 15-30 hours a week). I did similar stuff as you, failed A LOT of cloning projects, but what did I do? I put in extra hours, stayed later for the day, or came in the next day for extra hours to fix my experiment and redo it, because I genuinely cared for the project.

I'm assuming for an average student, most classes would be anywhere from from 9am~3pm reasonably (though there's always the exception for a late discussion/lab section or something, maybe one day a week), and most extracurricular meetings are at 6-7pm, or in the evening. Among the premeds I went to school with, most people including me would put in the hours for research in the afternoon after class and before the evening meetings for extracurriculars. Do you work a job or something that takes up a huge chunk of every evening of your week? Or a class that goes late everyday? If so I could understand, but if not, there is honestly is no excuse not to be able to dedicate at least an hour of the 24 hours you have in a day if you really cared about your project.

And you are right.... nobody will take you in their lab for a semester. Thus I recommend you to join a lab and stay there longer than a semester, show your commitment by staying into summer as well even if its your last semester. I'm not gonna lie, but I think it would be better to stay in one lab long term other than try to join a lab to get a quick letter to bounce and do a different lab in the summer, where both will not guarantee a strong LOR for med schools anyway. What it seems like is this summer research program is some end goal to you that you're trying to achieve. I think you should really think about why you want to do a summer research program versus doing more significant research at your institution (seek out a new lab if you don't like your current lab) --Do you think a summer research program will look THAT good on your med school app? You should consider how good of a LOR or a chance of a publication you can get in one summer at a summer research program.

Again, I don't want to sound harsh, but this is just the reality for research and you will learn this. You should do you research because you genuinely care about the project, want to learn, and want to get published. Then will it show in your commitment, your dedication, and in your time. Work hard and be proactive. I can guarantee you then (after probably thousands of hours), once you prove your commitment, you will get a KICKASS LOR in the end, that will look A LOT better than a "summer research program" ever will.

 

[Spitphire]

+1.
Having time for only one day a week isn't going to cut it in bench research. What are you doing that is so busy that prevents you from coming in? I'm actually curious to hear how you could be THAT busy. I don't mean to be harsh, but if you're going to come in one day a week, then I'm going to have to side with your PI that to me is very clear that you are definitely not interested in it enough. If something is important to you, you will make time for it. It sucks, but it's just what it is, especially in research culture. It was not uncommon for many of my fellow (undergrad as well) colleagues to put in so many extra hours in the evening or on the weekends to complete an experiment and redo many failed ones. I have no idea how much 15 credits is, but to give you an idea for me, I took ~4~4.5 classes a quarter, was heavily involved in extracurriculars, and I still was able to dedicate enough time to research for at least a couple of hours a day (anywhere from 15-30 hours a week). I did similar stuff as you, failed A LOT of cloning projects, but what did I do? I put in extra hours, stayed later for the day, or came in the next day for extra hours to fix my experiment and redo it, because I genuinely cared for the project.

I'm assuming for an average student, most classes would be anywhere from from 9am~3pm reasonably (though there's always the exception for a late discussion/lab section or something, maybe one day a week), and most extracurricular meetings are at 6-7pm, or in the evening. Among the premeds I went to school with, most people including me would put in the hours for research in the afternoon after class and before the evening meetings for extracurriculars. Do you work a job or something that takes up a huge chunk of every evening of your week? Or a class that goes late everyday? If so I could understand, but if not, there is honestly is no excuse not to be able to dedicate at least an hour of the 24 hours you have in a day if you really cared about your project.

And you are right.... nobody will take you in their lab for a semester. Thus I recommend you to join a lab and stay there longer than a semester, show your commitment by staying into summer as well even if its your last semester. I'm not gonna lie, but I think it would be better to stay in one lab long term other than try to join a lab to get a quick letter to bounce and do a different lab in the summer, where both will not guarantee a strong LOR for med schools anyway. What it seems like is this summer research program is some end goal to you that you're trying to achieve. I think you should really think about why you want to do a summer research program versus doing more significant research at your institution (seek out a new lab if you don't like your current lab) --Do you think a summer research program will look THAT good on your med school app? You should consider how good of a LOR or a chance of a publication you can get in one summer at a summer research program.

Again, I don't want to sound harsh, but this is just the reality for research and you will learn this. You should do you research because you genuinely care about the project, want to learn, and want to get published. Then will it show in your commitment, your dedication, and in your time. Work hard and be proactive. I can guarantee you then (after probably thousands of hours), once you prove your commitment, you will get a KICKASS LOR in the end, that will look A LOT better than a "summer research program" ever will.

 

[Aerus]

But still, an entire semester with nothing to show for it? He could have asked other lab mates for help.

Expecting great results within a semester of starting to learn everything in the lab is a bit much, don't you think? He was only working 8 hours a week after all. Assuming he worked a full semester, that's 120 hours. Definitely not enough time to learn and perfect every technique and protocol to the point where you can contribute useful data to your own project. Heck, it took me quite some time just trying to adjust to the lab environment and understand what all the words meant.

But the OP is graduating this semester... he's a senior.

Again, this varies. If OP took labs that didn't pertain to molecular biology lab techniques at all, then there's that.

 

[okokok]

I disagree that you learn molecular biology lab techniques in basic course labs. At my university, I didn't, at least. I felt incredibly stupid the first month I was in a research lab and was constantly asking questions. It annoyed my PI, but I tried not to let it get to me because I looked at it like he was getting free labor out of me and I was getting a learning experience and a LOR (though it definitely did get to me from time to time; he wasn't the nicest guy). So anyway, don't feel bad you didn't know how to do anything.

With that said, my PI would have dropped me for sure if I'd only been there one day a week. (I was only taking 13 credits but had a 40+ hours full time job on nights and weekends). I forced myself to be there evenings, weekends, mornings, and between classes. I did homework and studied there in between washes and experiments. It sucked for sure but you do it for a year and learn all you can and make a good impression and you're done. In my LOR, my PI wrote that I was often already in the lab when he got there in the morning and that showed him my dedication and responsibility blah blah blah.

So like an office job in the "real world," sometimes you just have to put in the hours of being seen and doing stuff, even if you're doing other stuff like homework at the same time. Just make sure you have something to show at the weekly lab meeting.

Since this is your last semester, I'd beg to stay in the lab, but make an effort to become more engaged and try to learn and do as much as you can.

 

[knv2u]

Expecting great results within a semester of starting to learn everything in the lab is a bit much, don't you think? He was only working 8 hours a week after all. Assuming he worked a full semester, that's 120 hours. Definitely not enough time to learn and perfect every technique and protocol to the point where you can contribute useful data to your own project. Heck, it took me quite some time just trying to adjust to the lab environment and understand what all the words meant.

Again, this varies. If OP took labs that didn't pertain to molecular biology lab techniques at all, then there's that.

Not to be rude, but I find it hard to believe that a graduating senior is unfamiliar with PCR, cloning, and bacterial transformation. At the absolute most, you are saying that there are procedural techniques he may be unfamiliar with. I performed a Google search using "bacterial transformation" and found a protocol that was easy enough to follow within 2 MINUTES. Also, I agree with the other posters. Taking someone in a lab is an enormous investment in resources. If I had had problems, I would have worked several hours, came in on the weekends, and came in on vacations to show gratitude for my PI for expending money on me. Research funding isn't exactly easy to get in the current financial situation in Washington.

http://www.addgene.org/plasmid_protocols/bacterial_transformation/

 

[Aerus]

Not to be rude, but I find it hard to believe that a graduating senior is unfamiliar with PCR, cloning, and bacterial transformation. At the absolute most, you are saying that there are procedural techniques he may be unfamiliar with. I performed a Google search using "bacterial transformation" and found a protocol that was easy enough to follow within 2 MINUTES. Also, I agree with the other posters. Taking someone in a lab is an enormous investment in resources. If I had had problems, I would have worked several hours, came in on the weekends, and came in on vacations to show gratitude for my PI for expending money on me. Research funding isn't exactly easy to get in the current financial situation in Washington.

http://www.addgene.org/plasmid_protocols/bacterial_transformation/

Bolded is exactly what I meant.....

Having some idea what PCR, cloning, and bacterial transformation is used for and actually being familiar with how it all works in reality are two different things. Unless the OP had extensive experience taking specifically molecular biology lab classes, it's not a very fair expectation to expect someone to just learn everything and start contributing useful data, all within 120 hours. Heck, it takes about that long for some of the new PhD candidates in my lab to get used to all the new protocols and become familiar with the specific type of research in my lab.

 

[lazyindy]

Wow some of you guys are harsh haha but I don't mind since I use every criticism as a motivating factor 😉

To clarify my OP, I did not learn even basic molecular biology techniques in my intro bio classes and lab. I did take genetics but reading about it in a textbook and implementing techniques it are two different things. Yes, there is a post-bacc student who works as a lab-tech but he generally hates his life does not like to teach and I have to keep nagging him to get a concept or procedure clarified. I only went there one day a week because I did not know if my P.I. wanted to have me there for more (he is a little impatient and condescending).

I will go into his office personally tomorrow and express my interest in this project (Yes I am interested in immunology, if I wasn't why in the world would I have picked his specific lab?) thanks for all the helpful input!

 

[Euxox]

Yes, there is a post-bacc student who works as a lab-tech but he generally hates his life does not like to teach and I have to keep nagging him to get a concept or procedure clarified. I only went there one day a week because I did not know if my P.I. wanted to have me there for more (he is a little impatient and condescending).

Sounds like one of two things are happening here:

1. Your PI and the post-bacc are both mean and unhelpful and this is probably indicative of the culture of the lab as a whole.
2. You are blaming people for your own mistakes.

If 1) is true, leave the lab now. There is no need for you to stick around in a lab where people are not interested in teaching undergrads and view them as a nuisance. Having research is not a must for applying to med school. Even if you absolutely want to do research, you're going to take a gap year, and that will give you a full year to work at another lab.

If 2) is true, you need to learn to take responsibility for your own actions. Eight weeks a lab is really not all that much, and if you don't understand how certain lab techniques work or if you are falling behind schedule, it is your responsibility to get help. This is how things work in the real world too. If you are assigned a task at work and you don't ask for help until after the deadline has passed, you're fired.

 

[notbobtrustme]

But still, an entire semester with nothing to show for it? He could have asked other lab mates for help.

I've seen people do nothing for 3 years. Research sucks and fails for no reason. Hell, I spent like 8 months trying to reproduce a Western blot that worked on the very first try until I quit my graduate program.


To the op: Quit the lab amicably, get into med school and never look back.

 

[buttercup12]

.

 

[SunsFun]

I think some people are coming down rather harshly on the OP. I worked a couple of months of a lab in a similar field and the environment was simply malignant. The PI was a dick and undergrads were scared to ask him for help while the grad students were too annoyed to help. I felt pressure to produce data even though I had no idea what I was doing or even why.

Once I got into a different lab and took some upper level labs the entire story changed. Honestly if I never worked for the first PI I would have no sympathy for the OP since it all seemed so easy in the new lab.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Bolded is exactly what I meant.....

Having some idea what PCR, cloning, and bacterial transformation is used for and actually being familiar with how it all works in reality are two different things. Unless the OP had extensive experience taking specifically molecular biology lab classes, it's not a very fair expectation to expect someone to just learn everything and start contributing useful data, all within 120 hours. Heck, it takes about that long for some of the new PhD candidates in my lab to get used to all the new protocols and become familiar with the specific type of research in my lab.

This +100. I remember in my intro to bio course they even taught us to do a basic PCR with one of those master mixes that contained all the dntp, mgcl2, taq, etc. It was fun and basic, but when I actually had to work out real PCR in a lab, it took quite a few tries. Something about mechanical learning needs to happen through repetition.

 

[BlackBox]

I think he/she was skipping over the retries. I bet they tried several times with various modifications.

Though, having no colonies grow after a transformation says more about the PI's teaching method rather than this students research ability (considering it's the first lab). Hard to say for sure though, since we don't know the screening or selection methods used.

haha WRONG. OP was able to learn the method from the lab. Thus, it's up to the student to carry through the experiments. 8hrs in a lab/week is nothing and sometimes experiments take weeks to move forward.

OP, Cloning fails...often. It's science. As someone who has been in science for over 10yrs, I can tell you that the PI of this lab is not worrying about what an undergraduate student has done- I think you may be stressing out over something he/she doesn't even consider on his/her radar. The best advice I can give to you is: work harder. Be motivated. GL

 

[gumdrops]

I started research lab experience this past August in virology/immunology and my P.I. assigned me a small project to work on. Unfortunately I also took 15 credit hours simultaneously while working in the lab for 8 hours a week. This is a molecular biology based lab (cloning, PCR, ligations, insertions, etc.) and you cannot expect good results in a short amount of time. It took me a month to learn all of the techniques but when I finally got to cloning to desired plasmid into bacterial colonies, no colonies ever grew. Long story short I didn't complete the project last semester and now he is implying that I am not "interested" in his lab and that I should stop wasting his resources and time.

From his perspective it was an easy assignment but not so much for me since I had to learn every single step thoroughly and only had time for lab 1 day a week. I really don't want an LOR from him at this point but this is my first research experience. The problem is that I start my LAST semester of undergrad this week and don't know if any other professors/researchers would take me into their lab for just a semester? What should I do in this situation? Summer research programs also want LOR's from research supervisors and I don't know if I can get even a decent one out of my current P.I.

This PI is clueless if he or she doesn't know how hard cloning is. It seems easy in theory but there are so many possible snags at each step. It also requires extensive troubleshooting. In all honesty, your PI sounds like the kind of person I wouldn't want a letter from anyway because of unreasonable, unrealistic expectations. It's quite likely that this person would not help anyone coming out of their lab. I know that type and I'm very sorry that this was your first research experience.

What I'd do first is write up what you did at every single step, from how you selected the insert, the vector, performed the ligation, etc. Make sure you've shown that you troubleshot it at every step. It sounds to me like the ligation step failed. Try adding three times the amount of insert to vector in your ligation reaction so that the probability of the insert entering the vector is higher (1:3 ratio of vector: insert is a good rule of thumb) during the ligation step. Make sure that you have proper positive and negative controls and take pictures. Basically, show this person that you tried everything possible and then see what he or she says. Knowing cloning, it could very well be out of a graduate student or post-doc's realm of expertise as well. My guess is that they'll soften up a bit. Good luck and let me know if you have any further questions.

 

[gumdrops]

Not to be rude, but I agree with the PI. All of these techniques are typically taught in intro bio classes/labs. It shouldn't have taken you more than 2-3 weeks at most to complete the entire thing including the entire process, not just growing the colonies. If you had problems, you should have asked for help.

This is unequivocally untrue. Sure, you can replicate the results of a cloning reaction very easily once every step has been optimized. You likely have no idea how much work it took to optimize each step so that a bunch of undergrads putzing around in a lab could do this in an intro bio course. The OP was having to likely put a gene of interest into a vector, which is one of the trickiest procedures in molecular biology.

 

[knv2u]

This is unequivocally untrue. Sure, you can replicate the results of a cloning reaction very easily once every step has been optimized. You likely have no idea how much work it took to optimize each step so that a bunch of undergrads putzing around in a lab could do this in an intro bio course. The OP was having to likely put a gene of interest into a vector, which is one of the trickiest procedures in molecular biology.

I have actually done this procedure multiple times, and have used different protocols (particularly as it relates to inducing bacterial competence). I know the potential pitfalls and I know exactly what it entails. If one uses controls and understands what he or she is doing, then problems should be easy enough to correct in a semester. At the very least, I have a hard time fathoming that a senior biology major wastes as an entire semester in a lab without even as much as a theory of what went wrong other than the OP only spent a trivial amount of time in the lab. The PI shouldn't have to spoon feed him by this point in his education. The problem is abundantly clear to me: the OP did not know what he was doing and did not put enough time and energy into figuring out what he was doing. I don't blame the PI for being angry.

 

[Shirafune]

Chiming in here, but as a relatively new UG to molecular bio research, I might have some useful insight.

I'm currently a sophomore, been working in my lab for 6 months, so I don't have THAT much bio knowledge in class. Despite this, taking an intro to cell bio class made learning in lab really straight forward. Read the protocol. Google everything you don't understand (my mentor always tells me to look things up through Google before bothering her). Read the literature. Ask your PI for previously published literature and try to understand what the project is trying to accomplish. You may be able to troubleshoot your experiments better if you actually know what you want your end product to be.

Spend more time in lab to regain your PI's trust. I spend at least 15 hrs/week + nights or weekends if the project calls for it. Show dedication and you'll be at least rewarded with good faith.

Point is that even if you don't know how to do something, there SHOULD be resources available to you (especially since you're a senior) that make self-learning easy. Unless topics or techniques your lab is using are highly progressive, you can figure it out BY YOURSELF. Don't beat yourself up though. I have had many tough weeks when I first started, some where I wanted to quit out of frustration.

 

[Qwerty2013]

wow 8 hours is practically nothing in wet lab research.
You should expect to put in at least 2 days for a total of 12 hrs or more. It is difficult to get results from going to lab once a week. I would say spend more time in your PI's lab and try to show that you can do it if given the chance.