Lab rotation before first year?

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solitude

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I know that some programs require you to come to campus in July and do a lab rotation before medical school. Others say it's optional, and others say it's not part of their curriculum.

My question is, how many people do the optional rotation before their first year? If it's "optional", is it basically required?

Thanks.

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solitude said:
I know that some programs require you to come to campus in July and do a lab rotation before medical school. Others say it's optional, and others say it's not part of their curriculum.

My question is, how many people do the optional rotation before their first year? If it's "optional", is it basically required?

Thanks.

At my school most people do them. I think it's awesome. The summer is basically all MSTP all the time.
 
solitude said:
My question is, how many people do the optional rotation before their first year? If it's "optional", is it basically required?

Thanks.

At my school it is optional, and they really mean optional. Probably half the people do it and half the people don't.
 
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solitude said:
If it's "optional", is it basically required?

Here at Penn it really is optional, and it's almost a "Well, if you really want to..." type thing. Less than 25% every year do the rotation the summer before. That being said, it was a good decision for me to do a rotation the summer before I started, and I had a good time doing it 🙂
 
At UCSF it is totally optional, about 50% end up doing one (I did).
 
it's a waste. enjoy your last free summer.
 
When I started at Michigan, it was required. It was totally low-key and I got to know the town quite a bit before school started. So it was nice. But it was potentially bad since it did force you to move into Ann Arbor right after you graduated from college.

Now, since the curriculum has changed, the first years start early. So rotations before the first year of med school don't practically exist. However, the first and second years are now more integrated. Hence, since you start earlier, you finish the second year earlier too. So, in fact, the students take Step 1 much earlier. Then before they start grad school as a pre-candidate in late August/September, you can fit in two rotations back-to-back.
 
housecleaning said:
it's a waste. enjoy your last free summer.


Yeah, at this point I have the same mindset. I'm only a sophomore, but I have to decide whether to graduate early pretty soon. I'm thinking about just taking my 8th semester off to relax, just in case that the program I go to requires or strongly recommends the lab rotation during that summer. After slaving through undergrad, I think it's important to take some time off to unwind before diving into 7-8yrs in one place.

Do you think MSTP's will mind if I graduate one semester early?

Thanks everybody for your replies, by the way.
 
I really hope that I end up at a school that doesn't require a pre-MS1 summer rotation. I didn't start my postbacc IRTA until September and I want to stay as close to a year as possible with a few weeks of travel squeezed in there before the end of summer.
 
Amen to that. I'm planning on going backpacking in Europe or somewhere for at least 2 weeks. I need to get the 5 years of undergrad out of my system! :scared:
 
It's important to enjoy your last summer, but people who do summer rotations before M1 sometimes have a really good time too. We had half the class here in the summer this year and they had a fun time together. Columbia is very relaxed as to what you do with your summer and actually didn't even ask me why I wasn't coming early or what I was going to be doing with our time. This might be something you consider when the time comes for you to choose a program, but it's really not that big of a deal if you are required to start in July.
 
Some schools (UCLA, UWash) absolutely require it. I didn't do it and enjoyed a fabulous summer instead. Like many others, only half of my classmates did it. If you are going into med school right after undergrad, I encourage you to take a summer off. Med school is intense! (unless you are a genius like Andy, who didn't have to study at all during the first year!)
 
gwang said:
(unless you are a genius like Andy, who didn't have to study at all during the first year!)

The intensity of the first two years of med school totally depends on the school, how much trivia they try to force into your head, and how much nonsense they make you attend. I encourage you all to think about this when you're looking at schools, especially if you have plans to do research and have a life on top of med school.
 
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Neuronix said:
The intensity of the first two years of med school totally depends on the school, how much trivia they try to force into your head, and how much nonsense they make you attend. I encourage you all to think about this when you're looking at schools, especially if you have plans to do research and have a life on top of med school.


How can we find out which schools make it unnecessarily intense, aside from the eternal wisdom of our SDN moderator 🙂?
 
I know this is an old thread, but I have a couple of questions regarding summer rotations and I do not want to waste a new thread on this topic that has been covered here.

1. I have always heard that the pre-M1 rotation is a "throw-away" rotation. Can someone explain why that is ? Is it not that we are given only 2 rotations, i.e. only 2 chances, to find out which lab we fit most for our official PhD lab, which means we have to take these 2 rotations very seriously ? Am I misunderstanding something here ?

2. Is it common that after doing the second rotation, one decides to go back to the lab of the first rotation and choose it for the PhD phase ? Or is it more common that one usually stays with the lab of the second rotation ?

3. If I choose not to do the first rotation during pre-M1 summer, I will have to do my 2 rotations during the summer between M1 and M2 and the summer after M2, right ? Will this set me one summer behind (and hence lengthen my training a couple of months more) compared to those who do the pre-M1 rotation and start the PhD phase in the summer after taking Step 1 ?

4. Lastly, what is the best time for contacting the PI to set up the rotation, if I happen to choose to rotate this coming summer ?

I apologize if my questions are naive or too neurotic. Thank you in advance !
 
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As a warning, I'm at the end of my MD/PhD, and I'm quite jaded despite having a phenomenal PhD mentor.

The pre-M1 rotation is not a throw-away rotation. There are definitely people who do a rotation, fall in love with the lab, do another rotation in another lab just to satisfy requirements, and join. I think it's still worthwhile to do at least two because maybe you'll like somewhere else better. One of the reasons it's often wasted is that people don't get really quality advising on who to rotate with pre-M1. After you've been at the institution for a while, you get unofficial mentors who can steer you towards the type of PI you want. For me, I didn't like rotations 1 or 2, but 3 was a good fit. If you want to speed the process along, seek out those mentors early. Your MD/PhD director may be that person, but it's always good to get advice from someone who has no vested interest in your career.

I personally think that as soon as you step foot on campus, you should find an experienced faculty member who truly cares about students and ask him/her to be your adviser to discuss rotations, difficulties in lab, making a committee, etc. Your PI should be your best advocate, but it's always good to get outside advice. You need to find someone who will tell you, "That PI is known for being awesome / not being around / mistreating / firing their students... that thesis committee member is impossible to schedule / demanding / not a good leader / defers to your mentor too much... here's how you handle that difficult post-doc in your lab." When you prepare to enter clinical years, you should seek out a clinical mentor as well.

The point of a rotation is not to get any science done. It's to determine fit, for you and for the members of the lab. Honestly, you can probably do that in most labs in 2 weeks. You are essentially dating the lab for a 4+ year relationship that is just as painful to terminate as if you were breaking up with a live-in significant other. Forgo-ing the M1 rotation will not set you to graduate behind unless you choose to do more than the required number of rotations (and see below why that will probably delay you less than settling on a bad lab). You will not be accomplishing anything meaningful during the rotation. In fact, you probably will be working on something completely unrelated to your thesis project.

If during the first week of the rotation, a post-doc tells you that you shouldn't come there, leave the rotation that week and arrange a shorter rotation elsewhere; don't waste your time sticking around for the full rotation. You don't keep dating someone once you realize it's not going anywhere. If several people tell you, "That lab is terrible for XYZ reason," listen to them. Don't delude yourself into thinking that your experience will be different. It won't be. The worst thing that can happen is you finish your PhD and hate your mentor and/or science, which happens a lot. Well, you could be kicked out with no notice and forced to restart or abandon your PhD... that would be worse (and it happens to about 5-10% of MD/PhD students in my experience).

If your program only gives you two rotations, and you're not happy after two, do more despite what they say. They may fight you, but there's really nothing they can do to stop you. I know far too many people who settled for "good enough" only to drop out or get kicked out after several years and forced to restart their entire PhDs and rotations. Honestly, the MD/PhD and medical school will tell you lots of things you "cannot" do but cannot stop you from doing it. Remember, they're in it for their best interest, and not yours, so do what you need to do. What are they going to do, write you a bad cover letter for your residency application? That certainly isn't in their best interest...

If you're interested in a lab, contact them NOW. Popular labs fill up and having waiting lists. Some people have to reserve their spot up to a year in advance.
 
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Thanks for the info debateg...lots of good stuff in there.

I have a question for anyone about my first rotation situation:

At the school that it's looking like I'll matriculate to, there's a PI who works on the same general problem that I did in my undergrad lab, and I would like to rotate there for my first rotation. Also, due to funding issues (and a lack of interest from Jax) my PI is giving me the opportunity to take a unique mouse model from my undergrad lab to my first rotation lab. What I'm worried about is that this will lock me into working in that lab for my PhD, when I definitely want to rotate through at least one other lab in a totally different field at that school. Should I go through with taking the mouse model with me and getting a running start in my first lab rotation? Any advice? Thanks...
 
As a warning, I'm at the end of my MD/PhD, and I'm quite jaded despite having a phenomenal PhD mentor.

The pre-M1 rotation is not a throw-away rotation. There are definitely people who do a rotation, fall in love with the lab, do another rotation in another lab just to satisfy requirements, and join. I think it's still worthwhile to do at least two because maybe you'll like somewhere else better. One of the reasons it's often wasted is that people don't get really quality advising on who to rotate with pre-M1. After you've been at the institution for a while, you get unofficial mentors who can steer you towards the type of PI you want. For me, I didn't like rotations 1 or 2, but 3 was a good fit. If you want to speed the process along, seek out those mentors early. Your MD/PhD director may be that person, but it's always good to get advice from someone who has no vested interest in your career.

I personally think that as soon as you step foot on campus, you should find an experienced faculty member who truly cares about students and ask him/her to be your adviser to discuss rotations, difficulties in lab, making a committee, etc. Your PI should be your best advocate, but it's always good to get outside advice. You need to find someone who will tell you, "That PI is known for being awesome / not being around / mistreating / firing their students... that thesis committee member is impossible to schedule / demanding / not a good leader / defers to your mentor too much... here's how you handle that difficult post-doc in your lab." When you prepare to enter clinical years, you should seek out a clinical mentor as well.

The point of a rotation is not to get any science done. It's to determine fit, for you and for the members of the lab. Honestly, you can probably do that in most labs in 2 weeks. You are essentially dating the lab for a 4+ year relationship that is just as painful to terminate as if you were breaking up with a live-in significant other. Forgo-ing the M1 rotation will not set you to graduate behind unless you choose to do more than the required number of rotations (and see below why that will probably delay you less than settling on a bad lab). You will not be accomplishing anything meaningful during the rotation. In fact, you probably will be working on something completely unrelated to your thesis project.

If during the first week of the rotation, a post-doc tells you that you shouldn't come there, leave the rotation that week and arrange a shorter rotation elsewhere; don't waste your time sticking around for the full rotation. You don't keep dating someone once you realize it's not going anywhere. If several people tell you, "That lab is terrible for XYZ reason," listen to them. Don't delude yourself into thinking that your experience will be different. It won't be. The worst thing that can happen is you finish your PhD and hate your mentor and/or science, which happens a lot. Well, you could be kicked out with no notice and forced to restart or abandon your PhD... that would be worse (and it happens to about 5-10% of MD/PhD students in my experience).

If your program only gives you two rotations, and you're not happy after two, do more despite what they say. They may fight you, but there's really nothing they can do to stop you. I know far too many people who settled for "good enough" only to drop out or get kicked out after several years and forced to restart their entire PhDs and rotations. Honestly, the MD/PhD and medical school will tell you lots of things you "cannot" do but cannot stop you from doing it. Remember, they're in it for their best interest, and not yours, so do what you need to do. What are they going to do, write you a bad cover letter for your residency application? That certainly isn't in their best interest...

If you're interested in a lab, contact them NOW. Popular labs fill up and having waiting lists. Some people have to reserve their spot up to a year in advance.

Thank you very much, debateg. As usual, there are a lot of helpful details in your post that help me understand this a lot better.

Right now, I have narrowed down my faculty list to two. One of them is an excellent role model for me, i.e. being an MD/PhD who is a leader at the school in the research field I'm interested in, has a medical subspecialty that I want to do down the road, has a personal background that is similar to me in many ways. My plan is this: I will save this PI for my second rotation between M1 and M2. For this coming summer, I will rotate in the lab of the other PI, who is also an excellent mentor and a rising great scientist, but less established than the first PI and does not have other factors that I can find to be a role model for me. Do you think this plan will benefit me ? Or should I go with the first PI who is an excellent role model for this coming summer ? I guess my question is whether it will benefit me better if I save the PI I like most for my second rotation, given that in the first rotation this summer I may not be optimal in feeling the PI and the lab because of the transition to the new city and to the new school.
 
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Thanks for the info debateg...lots of good stuff in there.

I have a question for anyone about my first rotation situation:

At the school that it's looking like I'll matriculate to, there's a PI who works on the same general problem that I did in my undergrad lab, and I would like to rotate there for my first rotation. Also, due to funding issues (and a lack of interest from Jax) my PI is giving me the opportunity to take a unique mouse model from my undergrad lab to my first rotation lab. What I'm worried about is that this will lock me into working in that lab for my PhD, when I definitely want to rotate through at least one other lab in a totally different field at that school. Should I go through with taking the mouse model with me and getting a running start in my first lab rotation? Any advice? Thanks...

I would personally save this one for 2nd (if at all). And I'm not sure I'd bring the mouse model to that lab at all unless you decide to stay there for your PhD.

But reasonable people can disagree on this topic.
 
I personally think that as soon as you step foot on campus, you should find an experienced faculty member who truly cares about students and ask him/her to be your adviser to discuss rotations, difficulties in lab, making a committee, etc. Your PI should be your best advocate, but it's always good to get outside advice. You need to find someone who will tell you, "That PI is known for being awesome / not being around / mistreating / firing their students... that thesis committee member is impossible to schedule / demanding / not a good leader / defers to your mentor too much... here's how you handle that difficult post-doc in your lab." When you prepare to enter clinical years, you should seek out a clinical mentor as well.


Absolutely agree with everything that you said. To build on the point about the mentor, it can be tricky because oftentimes the ostensibly nicest people ("best mentors") are quite tactful. In this situation, you're actually looking for somebody who doesn't pull punches. These people can seem a bit brusque at first, but will give you the unvarnished truth. The truth will set you free.
 
I also wouldn't take the mouse model to a lab until I was actually doing my PhD there.

As other people have said, rotations aren't about doing science, they are all about finding the right place for you. For me, the biggest problem with a pre-M1 rotation (and I did one after taking a wonderful vacation to Mexico and then spending a month hanging out with my older sister) is that there is a high likelihood that the lab will change significantly over the next 2 years. Post-docs and PhD students should be moving on to faculty positions and graduating respectively. Take the time to be sure you are in the right place. It is 100% worth it to do an extra rotation or spend a few weeks making sure that the lab you rotated through 2 years ago is still the right place even if it means delaying starting your PhD research by a few months. So much less painful than changing labs.
 
Take the time to be sure you are in the right place. It is 100% worth it to do an extra rotation or spend a few weeks making sure that the lab you rotated through 2 years ago is still the right place even if it means delaying starting your PhD research by a few months. So much less painful than changing labs.

QFT.

You're entering into a process (med school, grad school, residency, fellowship) that is 10-20 years in length (10 at a bare minimum, more likely 12-15). Looked at in that way, 2-3 months to make sure you're doing the right thing is meaningless. A lab change will cost you 1-3 years. A specialty change (down the road) will cost the same.

A few months early in the process, before you've invested anything is nothing.
 
QFT.

You're entering into a process (med school, grad school, residency, fellowship) that is 10-20 years in length (10 at a bare minimum, more likely 12-15). Looked at in that way, 2-3 months to make sure you're doing the right thing is meaningless. A lab change will cost you 1-3 years. A specialty change (down the road) will cost the same.

A few months early in the process, before you've invested anything is nothing.

I agree. If you have misgivings about going with a lab for grad school, try to do an extra rotation. That is much better than a switch. Gut feelings tend to be more important than we think, probably because they involve a lot of subtle subconscious cues, interactions, etc. that can be all important in determining the course of the PhD.
 
At the school that it's looking like I'll matriculate to, there's a PI who works on the same general problem that I did in my undergrad lab, and I would like to rotate there for my first rotation. Also, due to funding issues (and a lack of interest from Jax) my PI is giving me the opportunity to take a unique mouse model from my undergrad lab to my first rotation lab. What I'm worried about is that this will lock me into working in that lab for my PhD, when I definitely want to rotate through at least one other lab in a totally different field at that school. Should I go through with taking the mouse model with me and getting a running start in my first lab rotation? Any advice? Thanks...

If you take that mouse, the mouse will be transferred to that PI, and you will not have ownership of it at all. Maybe your potential PI will sit and breed the mouse and wait the 2 years for you to join the lab to work on the project, but unlikely. What's more likely to happen is that you will do a summer rotation involving the mouse, and then that project will be taken by another grad student / fellow / postdoc already there. By the time you join the lab two years later, the entire project will be owned by someone else, and you will end up with nothing. Maybe the new PI won't even take you in because he was using you to get the mouse. If you like that new PI, and you want to join for sure, carve out a discrete project with the new PI, and transfer the mouse 3-6 months prior to joining the lab to allow for colony expansion. Even still, this is a dicey proposition because you are inserting yourself into potential political infighting between PIs about valuable reagents. As a graduate student, avoid politics like the plague; if you get dragged in, they can potentially destroy your career.
 
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