Lack of good forensic schools?

[psych844]

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I was reading the "Insiders Guide", and they have a section that programs that have a forensic concentration and the list was fairly disappointing. A lot of professional schools, mostly Psyd programs, and then few Phd programs. Why?

I only found like a couple Phd programs that have full tuition waiver/stipend.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

It is a "hot" area (bc many lay people don't understand the day to day), so prof schools are trying to capitalize on it. There are good mentors out there, though not necessarily "concentrations" at programs....which are mostly marketing anyway. A good mentor and practica site will serve you MUCH better than any "concentration".

 

[psych844]

It is a "hot" area (bc many lay people don't understand the day to day), so prof schools are trying to capitalize on it. There are good mentors out there, though not necessarily "concentrations" at programs....which are mostly marketing anyway. A good mentor and practica site will serve you MUCH better than any "concentration".

I don't think it is marketing necessarily, as a student, I would assume it just means they have a lot of faculty with that research interest. It is useful as otherwise i'd have to go through each College and see who is in the faculty, and match it to my interest. (and then if it is only one person with my interest, hope they will stick around for my year, or beyond)

 

[PsyDr]

imo: the research is extremely limited in scope by the profession (e.g., dangerousness prediction). The majority of the research is done by jds who are reacting to testimony of psychologists. This reduces the amount of funded phd programs.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

Went to a generalist program. No forensic focus. The best initial training with forensics I received was by a practicum supervisor whom happened to be abfp, jd. Also an excellent businessman.. Now I'm joining his practice. Tracks IMO are a cheap selling point. Learn the trade/science of clinical psychology first and foremost, then go from there. If you can find someone that is boarded in your program that is also providing supervision, attempt to procure any training from them that you can.

 

[WisNeuro]

IMO teh best forensic training happens after you have a solid grounding in clinical psychology in general. Most of the people doing a good job and earning a good wage from it got supervision and experience in it after they were licensed. I'd be skeptical of programs claiming to offer a specialization in this area.

 

[psych844]

IMO teh best forensic training happens after you have a solid grounding in clinical psychology in general. Most of the people doing a good job and earning a good wage from it got supervision and experience in it after they were licensed. I'd be skeptical of programs claiming to offer a specialization in this area.

I think there is a possibility you are assuming something.
I don't have any experience of looking up professional schools and their curriculum's, only legit schools. (in Canada and USA). In almost all the cases, "concentration" has simply meant that the majority of your courses are general clinical psychology courses with maybe a few that are specific to that concentration. In other cases, a concentration has meant only that there are quite a few faculty doing research in that area, with really no specialized courses from that area. Also, that there are internship in that area.

So my experience has been that these legit schools do it the right way..a solid grounding in clinical psychology in general. The only school that I remember looking up that sort of put the cart before the horse was John Jay, who's curriculum/course content were very specific courses about forensic psychology without having almost any general clinical psych courses.

The legit schools that I found with concentrations in forensics are Fordham and University of Nebraska Lincoln. Any thoughts on these schools?

 

[psych844]

Here is an example from Fordham what they mean by specialization:

"
Clinical Psychology Specializations
The doctoral training program in clinical psychology is a single program that prepares students for and makes the eligible to take the New York State Licensing Examination in Psychology. Students can specialize in one of three areas through elective courses, selecting an appropriate externship, and by conducting either their MA or doctoral research in that area. The following four specializations are available:

• Child and Family
• Forensic
• Neuropsychology
• Health

"

so what they are saying is essentially what I wrote above..specialization means that you can select your electives to be in that area (but core in general clinical psych), they have externships available in that area, and they have faculty who do research in those areas.


Their sequence of study:

http://www.fordham.edu/info/21670/about_the_program

 

[John Lock]

I was reading the "Insiders Guide", and they have a section that programs that have a forensic concentration and the list was fairly disappointing. A lot of professional schools, mostly Psyd programs, and then few Phd programs. Why?

I only found like a couple Phd programs that have full tuition waiver/stipend.

I'm going to assume your speaking of criminal forensic psych, I think part of the reason so few exist is that it is such a new field. I think over the next 10-20 years you will see a explosion of forensic specific programs both clinical and non. Also many who specialize in forensic psych go into law or law enforcement rather then psychology profession wise, so sometimes a MS is all someone wants. I know this is very taboo to say but Walden has a very good non-clinical forensic psych PhD.

 

[WisNeuro]

I think there is a possibility you are assuming something.

I'm not assuming anything. I know about 10 people who do forensic work. 0 of them had any forensic training in graduate school, it was all training after the fact, and usually mentored by someone already in the field. Not saying that a program can't give quality education in this, but more often than not, "tracks and specializations" tend to be marketing gimmicks in some programs. I'd just research it heavily before pulling the trigger. What is your involvement in actual forensic cases? Are any faculty there actively doing forensic work? Etc.

 

[deleted343839]

Look at the requirements to become board certified in forensic psychology and then work backward. The American Board of Professional Psychology requires 100 hours of formal education or CE in forensics and 1000 hours of postdoctoral experience in forensics over a 5-year period. There is an exception granted for candidates who complete one out of two existing postdoctoral fellowships in forensic psychology. The board certification requirements say nothing about predoctoral training other than the general requirements for ABPP (APA-accredited graduate program and internship in clinical or counseling psych).

As with many other specialties (geropsychology, rehab, etc.), the most successful folks tend to be those who had very high quality generalist training (ie, from a strong graduate program) and then pursued specialization during internship, postdoc, and beyond. Practicum/externship placements are a nice way to get a foothold in an area, but specialization goes well beyond that. Look for the fundamentals first: funding, internship match rates, licensure rates, etc.

 

[psych844]

I'm not assuming anything. I know about 10 people who do forensic work. 0 of them had any forensic training in graduate school, it was all training after the fact, and usually mentored by someone already in the field. Not saying that a program can't give quality education in this, but more often than not, "tracks and specializations" tend to be marketing gimmicks in some programs. I'd just research it heavily before pulling the trigger. What is your involvement in actual forensic cases? Are any faculty there actively doing forensic work? Etc.

I understand. Obviously I do understand that you know a great number of people in the field, but I thought you were suggesting that when there are tracks or specializations, they tend to be gimmicks and put the cart before the horse. That hasn't been my experience ie see Fordham example, etc They specifically lay out what they mean by specialization, and it essentially means that you can take 3-4 electives in that specialization, that you will have practicum that is in forensic, and you have faculty in that specific area so you can do your research in that area as well.

I find this sort of refreshing, in the sense that you aside from learning the general core of clinical psych you get to take a few courses in your specific interest, you know 100% there is plenty of faculty doing research in your area, and you know for sure you go go to a forensic practicum site.

 

[psych844]

I don't know USA schools that well..how well regarded is Fordham and University of Nebraska (Lincoln)?

 

[bostongal109]

I did my Masters with a concentration in forensics and I don't think it was a gimmick. Could I have had the same experience without going to that specific program? Yes, but having a forensic concentration on my CV has definitely helped me get some great jobs. At my school the concentration meant you would do your practicum or internship in a forensic placement and you can do your electives in the law school as well as participate in research with professors in that area. I think the idea of "I know people in the forensic field who didn't do that and look how well they turned out" argument is ... well, 1. of course anyone can eventually get a good job in a field they want to work in, so no- you don't *need* a concentration or specialty, but it can make things a bit easier, and 2. I think it will become more popular as time goes by, I'm not sure how new these accredited concentrations are, but I'm going to guess they weren't around 10-20 years ago. Also- if that's your area of interest- why not do it? If you wanted to study cognitive psych, wouldn't you look at school that had a cognitive concentration? Of the people I currently work with, most had some sort of forensic clinical experience while in their doctorate program, and did their dissertation on a forensic topic and/or did a forensic post-doc.

That all being said- yes I think MANY people don't understand what it is and some programs are taking advantage of that. [When I tell people what my degree is in I often get "Oh! So you like work in crime scenes and with dead bodies?"] As many people have said- for a quality program it needs to be 1. a general clinical curriculum with just forensic experiences [not all of them, but some] and forensic research, and 2. it needs to be accredited. Forensics is one of the fields where accreditation matters most.

To add to your list of Fordham and Nebraska- U Houston and Drexel have forensic concentrations and are APA accredited and funded. Some other schools don't have an official concentration but have faculty doing research.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Also- if that's your area of interest- why not do it? If you wanted to study cognitive psych, wouldn't you look at school that had a cognitive concentration?

The biggest issue I have with it (besides the predatory FSPS programs and marketing/spin) is the push to put the cart before the horse. A student needs to have a solid foundation of general psychology before trying to "specialize". If a student is a weak generalist they will probably be a weak specialist because they don't know what they don't know.

 

[psych844]

The biggest issue I have with it (besides the predatory FSPS programs and marketing/spin) is the push to put the cart before the horse. A student needs to have a solid foundation of general psychology before trying to "specialize". If a student is a weak generalist they will probably be a weak specialist because they don't know what they don't know.

Do you have any proof of legit programs that do this or is this something that you think happens? (ie not including Argosy and the other pro schools)

As I said above, the legit schools don't put the cart before the horse, i even posted examples. They all have a general clinical psych core, and you may take concentration courses as your electives. On top of that, it just means that you can do a practicum in that specialty and that there are many faculty doing such research (ie that you will do at least your masters thesis or phd dissertation in that specialty)

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

As I said above, the legit schools don't put the cart before the horse, i even posted examples. They all have a general clinical psych core, and you may take concentration courses as your electives. On top of that, it just means that you can do a practicum in that specialty and that there are many faculty doing such research (ie that you will do at least your masters thesis or phd dissertation in that specialty)

John Jay attempted to gain accreditation for a "Forensic Psychology" Ph.D. program, which thankfully did not gain accreditation. Most of the programs I taken exception with are MA/MS programs because taking some "general" psych classes is not sufficient to then jump into a doctoral speciality area. If a doctoral program wants to offer some elective classes later in training....good, but to push an area/speciality at the MA/MS level...I don't think it is appropriate.

 

[WisNeuro]

Take home message, pick a program for it's general clinical reputation and fit with your research interests first, not solely based on whether or not they have a track you like. Much of that critical specialized knowledge comes later in your training.

 

[bostongal109]

John Jay attempted to gain accreditation for a "Forensic Psychology" Ph.D. program, which thankfully did not gain accreditation. Most of the programs I taken exception with are MA/MS programs because taking some "general" psych classes is not sufficient to then jump into a doctoral speciality area. If a doctoral program wants to offer some elective classes later in training....good, but to push an area/speciality at the MA/MS level...I don't think it is appropriate.

I don't think it is solely a "doctoral specialty area." I practice at a Masters level and what I learned in school was at a Masters level. Yes- there is a doctoral level in forensics, but there is also a middle ground we are skipping over. As previously mentioned- my program was an introduction to the mental health laws in my state, standards, etc and allowed me to gain experience in forensic settings. All my courses (save electives) were the general clinical curriculum. I don't think being exposed to your area of interest is putting the cart before the horse, nor do I find that any different than doing a child/adolescent track/concentration/specialty/research or an I/O track/specialty/concentration/research/whatever we want to call it. Absolutely- if you are only studying that and not getting your general foundation- it would present problems. I just think it's an over-generalization to say that any concentration/track/specialty/whatever is bad.

But yes- what is most important is matching your research interests. Absolutely.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I don't think it is solely a "doctoral specialty area." I practice at a Masters level and what I learned in school was at a Masters level. Yes- there is a doctoral level in forensics, but there is also a middle ground we are skipping over. As previously mentioned- my program was an introduction to the mental health laws in my state, standards, etc and allowed me to gain experience in forensic settings. All my courses (save electives) were the general clinical curriculum. I don't think being exposed to your area of interest is putting the cart before the horse, nor do I find that any different than doing a child/adolescent track/concentration/specialty/research or an I/O track/specialty/concentration/research/whatever we want to call it. Absolutely- if you are only studying that and not getting your general foundation- it would present problems. I just think it's an over-generalization to say that any concentration/track/specialty/whatever is bad.

But yes- what is most important is matching your research interests. Absolutely.

To be a forensic psychologist, you need a doctorate. It is a specialty for a clinical psychologist. I am confused as to what you are "practicing" with a masters in forensic psychology.

 

[WisNeuro]

I don't think anyone said "all specializations/tracks=bad) just that you should be skeptical, because some will use it as a marketing tool without it actually doing demonstrable good. There are legit tracks out there, but they are all housed within strong programs that will give you very good general training as well.

 

[bostongal109]

To be a forensic psychologist, you need a doctorate. It is a specialty for a clinical psychologist. I am confused as to what you are "practicing" with a masters in forensic psychology.

That is correct you need a doctorate to be a forensic *psychologist*, but there are also forensic social workers, and more generally, forensic clinicians. We do similar work to a forensic psychologist, but obviously cannot do testing and cannot do certain types of assessments or evaluations for the Courts based on the state's legislature, but each state is different. I'm not "practicing", I am practicing. 🙂

 

[sctm2]

The American-Psychology Law Society website has a document listing most of the schools that offer some type of forensic exposure at the graduate level (i.e, faculty with research interests, practicum experience).

http://www.apadivisions.org/division-41/education/programs/index.aspx

 

[bmedclinic]

Went to a generalist program. No forensic focus. The best initial training with forensics I received was by a practicum supervisor whom happened to be abfp, jd. Also an excellent businessman.. Now I'm joining his practice. Tracks IMO are a cheap selling point. Learn the trade/science of clinical psychology first and foremost, then go from there. If you can find someone that is boarded in your program that is also providing supervision, attempt to procure any training from them that you can.

I do forensic work currently, and did so primarily on internship and postdoc. Forensics are interesting, but not my love (like health psych is). Anyways, in my experience those "forensic" programs dont really set you up to be any more successful than others.

 

[Ollie123]

Its not like forensic tracks are "bad" its just that they are fairly poor indicators of the quality of the training in forensic psych. Same is true for neuro and the other specialties. We just see a lot of folks here who seem overly focused on going someplace with a forensic "track" that amounts to 3 extra classes. Which wouldn't be bad either until you look at the faculty and realize they have no forensic psychologists among their core faculty, the courses are taught by adjuncts who may or may not have much forensic experience either, there are no other departments where they might have access to forensic psychologists (criminology, public health/policy, law school) and none of the current students or faculty are publishing on the topic.

Tracks are not bad, its just that many of the schools that have them are bad and many of the best options for specialty training are at schools without tracks.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I do think one thing non-track programs could take from all this is to make it a bit less arduous (e.g., via website) to quickly see what sorts of research and clinical work is going on in the department's labs, what practicum placements are available, etc.

Having to hunt through individual faculty member's pages across a dozen or two schools can try the patience of just about anyone.

Perhaps the reason this hasn't happened yet is because there's no want for demand at the more "traditional" programs. However, that doesn't mean this type of easily-accessible information wouldn't still be helpful.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I agree with AA. If a program already receives plenty of qualified applicants, they probably aren't super motivated to put in more work on the program website. Personally, I can see some value in an applicant taking the time to search through journal articles/websites to find possible mentors. Having everything presented to an applicant on a platter isn't how most things go in academia/education anyway. Just imagine if you had to figure all of this out w/o SDN, Grad Cafe, etc.

 

[CourageToGrow]

I graduated with a Psy.D. from Florida Institute of Technology. I completed the forensic concentration, which was a practicum and elective course work in that area. I still had all of the general courses, just used my electives to complete several courses and seminars related to forensic psychology. I majored in Psychology with a minor in Criminal Justice, so I knew going in I wanted to focus on assessment and complete forensic assessments. My internship placed a heavy emphasis on assessment and had two separate forensic rotations: Sex Offender Risk Assessment and Parental Capacity Evaluations, while also provided generalist evaluations and therapy opportunities.

 

[Lyra33]

My internship supervisor, and another forensic psychologist post-doc where I did my internship both attended Sam Houston State's PhD program. It is a clinical program, but has a strong emphasis on forensic treatment. I'm not sure about funding, but it is APA-accredited. My internship supervisor did her internship at a federal BOP. Both were excellent clinicians, and now have very good jobs doing forensic evaluations. Many of their colleagues in school now work at BOPs, state hospitals, etc. I would recommend checking it out if that is an interest of yours.

 

[hopeful8]

Yes, it's true that there are relatively few doctoral programs that emphasize forensics. I would echo others comments about the importance of strong generalist training in grad school, supplemented by forensic-focused research and/or externship.

Also, keep in mind that a doctoral program may not advertise "forensics" training but may still provide an opportunity to gain intensive training in areas relevant to forensic work; for example, conducting research or gaining clinical exposure to antisocial or borderline PD, substance abuse, trauma, malingering, risk assessment, etc.

 

[President_LeslieKnope]

University of Alabama (The UA aka the one in Tuscaloosa) offers a "Psych Law" concentration within their Clinical Psych PhD program. A lot of my friends have forensic interests in that concentration and move onto very successful forensic based careers. UA has an excellent program (although I guess for some isn't geographically appealing) and I would absolutely look into the program and mentors outside of/within that concentration to see if your research interests align.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

University of Alabama (The UA aka the one in Tuscaloosa) offers a "Psych Law" concentration within their Clinical Psych PhD program. A lot of my friends have forensic interests in that concentration and move onto very successful forensic based careers. UA has an excellent program (although I guess for some isn't geographically appealing) and I would absolutely look into the program and mentors outside of/within that concentration to see if your research interests align.

+1. If I'd had forensic interests, knowing what I know now (and having seen a few of the clinicians coming out of there), I'd take a long look at their program.

 

[psych844]

+1. If I'd had forensic interests, knowing what I know now (and having seen a few of the clinicians coming out of there), I'd take a long look at their program.

I'm from Canada, and I 100% know if I came back with a Phd from there, I'd have jokes for life about it lol

 

[PhDToBe]

I'm from Canada, and I 100% know if I came back with a Phd from there, I'd have jokes for life about it lol

Because it's in Alabama, or because it's a poor program?

 

[psych844]

Because it's in Alabama, or because it's a poor program?

Just because it's Alabama. lol The southern accents will come out, and my education will be questioned.

 

[President_LeslieKnope]

Just because it's Alabama. lol The southern accents will come out, and my education will be questioned.

The program actually has a good bit of international (specifically Canadian students) that go there. There are also several faculty there from Canada. Most if not all of the faculty are quite prestigious from all over the country and world. The southern accents are scarce within the program, but cute when they are there 🙂 Also, no one would be questioning your education coming out of that program even if it is in Alabama...if they are they don't know what they're talking about ;-)

 

[psych844]

The program actually has a good bit of international (specifically Canadian students) that go there. There are also several faculty there from Canada. Most if not all of the faculty are quite prestigious from all over the country and world. The southern accents are scarce within the program, but cute when they are there 🙂 Also, no one would be questioning your education coming out of that program even if it is in Alabama...if they are they don't know what they're talking about ;-)

Oh yeah, I don't doubt that it is a great program..but most people who don't really do the research, maybe even in USA, might be like "Alabama, really?!"

 

[erg923]

The University of Alabama is pretty well respected university, independent from whatever one may think abou the state of Alabama itself.