Late 40s applicant to MD/DO school

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redmustardseed

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Greetings, I appreciate all advice on my application process. I am in my late 40s, have been a mid-level clinician for >15 years, in a stable relationship with children. My stats are first, questions second.

STATS
1st year undergrad liberal arts, unsure of GPA, took 4 years off after this year (we weren't told our grades), have requested transcript.
BS Biology 4.0, graduated 1st in class
BSN 4.0, graduated 1st in class
MS clinical, midlevel provider degree
Lab/field assistant nonhealthcare related as undergrad, no publications
Wrote undergrad research thesis (had fellowship). Didn't publish due to abusive advisor- I was advised to walk away and I assume he published without my name.
No research experience in >20 years.
No shadowing but I work as a clinician.

I need to live in my home so I'm restricted to schools in reasonable commute distance, potential list in no particular order and only based on geographic location:

Columbia
Mt Sinai
Cornell
NYU (probably too far geographically and I assume I wouldn't get in)
NYMC
Seton Hall
Rutgers
Touro Harlem
Touro Middletown
Yale
U Conn
Maybe Albany, but probably too far (2 hrs)

QUESTIONS
1) What's too far of a commute for med school?
2) Can I focus just on mcat prep or do I need to take some classes? My prereqs are >20 years old
3) Do I need recent research or healthcare research experience? If so, how can I do that if not connected to a university? Would it be acceptable to publish a non -research article in midmid-level field journal? Or do a small survey-based study of my colleagues? I realize these are the easy way out, but they are doable without enrolling as a research student somewhere. I could also apply for a nurse research position, but they are covered and I don't have connections - would that also be looked down on?
4) If I am a clinician and have worked in public hospital, private practice and run a small private practice, do I need to shadow? Do I only need that for DO applications? I am a pt of a DO and I refer patients to him so I could ask him once stay home orders lift.
5) I've had a malpractice claim- will I be denied for med student malpractice? I looked at AMSA and Nexus sites - the online apps there don't ask this info, but maybe there's a longer form once you've filled out the first. It would be terrible to do all the work needed to get in, get accepted, then have to drop out before starting if unable to get med student medmal.
6) I have terrible credit, which I'm working on. Do med schools check this?
7) Do I need to disclose my malpractice claim on my med school application? Will schools google me to search for claims and ask about the case during interviews? Even though my part of the case is resolved, I obviously can't discuss it due to hipaa and legal protection of the other party.

I appreciate your responses, including the brutally honest ones.
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1. At this point in your career/life, why choose to go back to med school?

2. What specialty do you currently work in as an NP/PA? What specialty are you looking to do a residency in? If your desired specialty is similar to what you currently work in, how does going to med school significantly differ from what you currently do (accounting for exceptions, ex. surgery)?

3. You're looking at > 7 years of lost income. Is it reasonable that you'll make up the difference post-residency in a significantly shorter lifespan as an attending?

4. How do you plan to pay for med school? Many-most loan programs are predicated on a credit check.
 
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Thank you Apollo. Answers below each question.

1. At this point in your career/life, why choose to go back to med school?

I have loved my career, and my interests have evolved to be more fully primary care and mental health/wellness for all people. My current field limits me in this regard. I've always loved science and I'm the kind of practitioner who digs deep to fully comprehend a given situation and personalize/individualize care. I think I can only get the in-depth understanding I want through med school.

2. What specialty do you currently work in as an NP/PA? What specialty are you looking to do a residency in? If your desired specialty is similar to what you currently work in, how does going to med school significantly differ from what you currently do (accounting for exceptions, ex. surgery)?

I am in obgyn as a mid-level and I'd like to work with all genders/all ages in a broader capacity, either family medicine or psych. I also want more leadership and not to have to fight to be recognized as someone who should "sit at the table".

3. You're looking at > 7 years of lost income. Is it reasonable that you'll make up the difference post-residency in a significantly shorter lifespan as an attending?

Very good question and depends on how long I continue working. I do plan to continue working past 65, but it's possible I won't make up the difference.

4. How do you plan to pay for med school? Many-most loan programs are predicated on a credit check.
[/QUOTE]

Good to know. I will need to pay completely with loans unless I qualify for some kind of scholarship, which I know is very competitive and not super likely. I currently have 40K in school loan debt and 25K in other debt including a car loan, all of which I pay on monthly. My poor credit is actually related to aftermath of the lawsuit, but will be evident on credit check. I wonder if I can determine my eligibility for school loans priof to going through all the work of mcat prep, etc. I'll look into that- thank you.

Would love other responses!!!
 
Thank you cornfed, good to know. I'll look into the loan situation further.

I welcome further input from everyone on my other questions!
 
1. This is subjective for preclinical years. Many students watch recordings of lectures instead of attending them in person. Using this strategy you would maybe limit time lost commuting. However for clinical years if you are on call there are stipulations that you must be able to reach the site in x amount of time. My school requires 30 minutes or less.
2. You should probably take some recent classes for MD, unsure for DO. Your grades are dated and don’t reflect your current abilities as a student.
3. Research is not necessary depending on your school list. Unfortunately your proposed list skews towards schools that favor research and also younger applicants (NYU, Columbia, Yale, Sinai). Your best shot will be at your state school, I’m guessing UConn, that has a mission to produce doctors that will serve in Conn.
4. Unsure
5. I don’t believe this comes up on AMCAS. As far as I know, AMCAS is focused on whether an applicant has faced legal or institutional actions (from a university).
6. There is a background check but not a credit report.
7. I would not disclose it unless you are specifically asked about being involved in litigation since you cannot discuss it. If you are asked then yes you need to disclose it.
 
QUESTIONS
1) What's too far of a commute for med school?

Anything > 45 min each way in my book. That's 90 mins lost study time each day


2) Can I focus just on mcat prep or do I need to take some classes? My prereqs are >20 years old

Pre-reqs expire. The expiration dates are school-dependent. But there is no way I would eventhink of trying ot take the mCAT on my distant memory of Orgo, physic, etc.


3) Do I need recent research or healthcare research experience? If so, how can I do that if not connected to a university?
Research, no. Healthcare research, no.


4) If I am a clinician and have worked in public hospital, private practice and run a small private practice, do I need to shadow? Do I only need that for DO applications? I am a pt of a DO and I refer patients to him so I could ask him once stay home orders lift.

Yes, you need to shadow because YOU need to see what a doctor's day is like and how different doctors approach Medicine.

5) I've had a malpractice claim- will I be denied for med student malpractice? I looked at AMSA and Nexus sites - the online apps there don't ask this info, but maybe there's a longer form once you've filled out the first. It would be terrible to do all the work needed to get in, get accepted, then have to drop out before starting if unable to get med student medmal.

Ask a lawyer.

6) I have terrible credit, which I'm working on. Do med schools check this?
I don't think schools care about this. Will your prevent you from getting a federal loan?

7) Do I need to disclose my malpractice claim on my med school application?
No

Will schools google me to search for claims and ask about the case during interviews?
Gawd, no
 
Thank you GreenDuck12. I appreciate your answers.

Taking all the responses into account, I think my best path forward is to take some science courses and start preparing for mcat.

If I cross NYU, Columbia, Sinai and Cornell off the list, I don't need to figure a way to do research just for the sake of applying.

Is that true for NYMC as well? No research needed if I have plenty of clinical experience?

How about community service? Other than offering pro bono services to my patients who need them and donations, I don't have recent community service. Is it essential that I add some? ( Not that I wouldn't enjoy community service, but I'd like to prioritize whatever is actually needed for my particular situation.)
 
Goro, I'm grateful for your reply.

I know that one of the schools within 45 minutes of me does not require that I repeat prereqs. If the other also doesn't, then the point f courses would be to help me with mcat. I know I can teach myself. I am a self-directed learner, have good self-discipline, and I'm good at tests (although I understand this will be the hardest test I've ever taken).

So I might rather take some courses that I haven't taken before, like biochem, micriobiology, and cell bio (I know, odd given that I'm a bio major - I did mostly botany/zoology type courses). Does that make sense?

For shadowing, obviously I should probably branch out from what I know - obgyn. Is there an ideal number of different areas of medicine to observe? Can it all be outpatient? I imagine it's probably harder to find inpatient shadowing.

Thank you!
 
redmustardseed said:
Goro, I'm grateful for your reply.

I know that one of the schools within 45 minutes of me does not require that I repeat prereqs. If the other also doesn't, then the point f courses would be to help me with mcat. I know I can teach myself. I am a self-directed learner, have good self-discipline, and I'm good at tests (although I understand this will be the hardest test I've ever taken).

So I might rather take some courses that I haven't taken before, like biochem, micriobiology, and cell bio (I know, odd given that I'm a bio major - I did mostly botany/zoology type courses). Does that make sense?

For shadowing, obviously I should probably branch out from what I know - obgyn. Is there an ideal number of different areas of medicine to observe? Can it all be outpatient? I imagine it's probably harder to find inpatient shadowing.

Thank you!
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50 hours of shadowing is usually recommended, with some of it being in primary care. Since you're interested in family practice, I would think some FM shadowing would be of interest to you.

Practice MCATs can be purchased from most of the big test preparation companies as well as AMCAS. Taking a diagnostic would give you a starting point for where to fill in gaps on your knowledge for the MCAT. It is a basic science knowledge and application exam, not a medical knowledge one.
 
Thank you pagingdoctormom.

So it sounds like I don't need to shadow multiple different specialties.
 
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Excellent, thank you Dadisfat. I think I will enjoy Biochem.

Any other classes not in the standard prereqs that will help with mcat? Better to choose micriobiology, cell bio, redo stats class (which I've taken at grad level but a long time ago)?
 
Have you had physics 1 and 2? That is definitely on the MCAT and is a requirement for some schools. Micro would help some and I imagine cell biology would also (but I have not taken that course so I am not sure what all is covered).
 
redmustardseed said:
Excellent, thank you Dadisfat. I think I will enjoy Biochem.

Any other classes not in the standard prereqs that will help with mcat? Better to choose micriobiology, cell bio, redo stats class (which I've taken at grad level but a long time ago)?
Click to expand...
The prereqs will give you the basics you need for the MCAT. If you have space in your schedule, cell biology / molecular bio / microbiology can be useful as they go more in depth in topics that are on the MCAT. I wouldnt delay the MCAT for those courses unless you really felt you needed the additional depth to better understand the basics.
 
I did take Physics 1 and 2 and did well although physics is not something enjoy unfortunately. I don't love the idea of repeating it, but could manage self study. If the main purpose of taking courses is preparation for MCAT and not showing current credits in science, does anyone have an option on Harvard HMX courses? I would use this in combination with traditional textbooks I think.
 
Just a couple of remarks. I was 37 when I started med school, btw, and 42 as I started residency (I took a year off in med school). I went to the University of Cincinnati, though I spent my adult life in NYC. They are nontrad-friendly, should you ever find yourself more geographically flexible.

You can get a Grad Plus loan unless you have an "adverse credit history" as detailed here. https://studentaid.gov/sites/default/files/plus-adverse-credit.pdf I was able to clean up my credit in order to get my M1 loans, but in subsequent years my other debts fell past due again (since I wasn't working or able to pay them) and I needed a cosigner. The cosigner also has to be free of "adverse credit history." Important loophole: after graduation, I consolidated my loans into a Direct Consolidation Loan. This means that the 3 cosigned Grad Plus loans I had are now paid in full and my cosigner is off the hook. He received a paid in full letter in the mail. I haven't checked his credit to make sure that the Grad Plus loans show as paid, but there's no way they wouldn't, as they now have a zero balance IRL and the Direct Consolidation Loan doesn't have his name anywhere on it. It is apparently also possible to apply to remove a cosigner.

If you've been working on your credit, then you probably already know about CreditBoards, but their forums are a great resource. CreditBoards

I'm pretty sure that my credit was checked as part of the background checks before beginning med school and residency, but a lot of bad debt (private student loans, grrrr) was never mentioned.

It may not work out with your geography, but you should definitely look into Cooper in NJ. Cooper Medical School of Rowan University I was reluctant to apply, being out of state (NY resident), but they took me. They also admitted another out-of-state person I know, no connection to the East Coast at all, who was in her late 40s/early 50s.

You have miles more clinical experience than most applicants, of course. I did an accelerated BSN but never practiced as a nurse. Based on my nursing school clinical experience, I did only minimal shadowing of a primary care doctor (my personal physician) and it turned out fine.

For MCAT prep and content review, I really recommend the ExamKrackers books. Have a look on Scribd (Discover the Best eBooks, Audiobooks, Magazines, Sheet Music, and More | Scribd).
 
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I don't think you need to retake prereqs as some of my prereqs were >10 years old when applied and not one school asked me about them. I also pulled the trigger after working as a nurse for 7+ years and it took me another ~ 3 years to complete the med school prereqs while getting my BSN. Medical school and residency have not been easy but I am glad that no one will attempt to question my credentials.

By the way, one of my mentors started med school in her mid-50s and still practicing in her mid-70s as an IM doc. She was also an NP for over 20 yrs.

Good luck!
 
Important clarification--Direct Subsdized and Direct Unsubsidized loans, formerly known as Stafford loans, do NOT have a credit check, period. See here: Subsidized and Unsubsidized Loans Your tuition will probably be covered or mostly covered by Direct Loans. The Direct Consolidation Loan that I mention in my post above also does not have a credit check. The Grad Plus loan, the only(?) federal student loan with a credit check, comes into play when it's time to cover your living expenses.
 
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samc said:
Important clarification--Direct Subsdized and Direct Unsubsidized loans, formerly known as Stafford loans, do NOT have a credit check, period. See here: Subsidized and Unsubsidized Loans Your tuition will probably be covered or mostly covered by Direct Loans. The Direct Consolidation Loan that I mention in my post above also does not have a credit check. The Grad Plus loan, the only(?) federal student loan with a credit check, comes into play when it's time to cover your living expenses.
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Samc that's great know, thank you for clarifying. I might be able to get by without living expenses loans. I'll try to plan for that as I work on my credit
 
Splenda88 I really appreciate your reply. I hear about med school and residency not being easy. Did you have children while in school/residency?

Splenda88 said:
I don't think you need to retake prereqs as some of my prereqs were >10 years old when applied and not one school asked me about them. I also pulled the trigger after working as a nurse for 7+ years and it took me another ~ 3 years to complete the med school prereqs while getting my BSN. Medical school and residency have not been easy but I am glad that no one will attempt to question my credentials.

By the way, one of my mentors started med school in her mid-50s and still practicing in her mid-70s as an IM doc. She was also an NP for over 20 yrs.

Good luck!
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hearteries said:
You and I have very similar career and educational hx but I am further along than you in the process. I am applying this summer for entry into 2021. I already completed my AMCAS app and had all of my transcripts and Letters sent.

I am applying to 10-15 MD schools and each has a different answer. Like you it has been decades since I took pre-reqs even if I have advanced degrees and also a clinician. It is a different animal to return to school married with years under your belt, and focusing on textbooks, lectures, quizes/exams, class attendance, assignments, writing notes from readings in textbooks, and expecting the family to leave you alone for 20-30 hrs/week. It is selfish really of us to ask our families to “understand”. So buy-in is key. Even then there is the guilt, the self-doubt, the finances (we are paying cash), and sleep hygiene is awful.

I shot myself in the foot by not repeating Organic and General Chem. If I had to do it over I would. MD schools want to see recent course work, some want to see an entire year of full time courses or a grad degree in Medical Sciences or some crap like that, a useless degree, but they want to see you can handle MD school. That is very reasonable on their behalf. Some have told me just to take the MCAT and score high, while others have gently requested a full blown grad degree focusing on MD courses. So you need to get your list of MD schools first, then contact the Director of Admissions. Sell yourself, let them know you exist and put those interpersonal skills to work. All of my MD schools have been very supportive except one. I dropped them from my list.

I have many years experience in patient care but not as a physician. So I volunteered at clinics and shadowed at hospitals to click the box on that item. In my case none of the Admissions director requested it saying I had plenty of experience. They also told me applicants like you and me are few. I also joined a research lab at the university, had a paper published with my name in it, yada yada yada. You and I know we are just clicking boxes to satisfy requirements. I have found once they get to know me, the action items are explained, waived and more focused on what they want to see from me. So again, ask the schools to which you are interested and go from there. MSAR is helpful but more helpful is contacting the schools and connecting with the Admissions Director. Have an updated resume to send before you have that initial phone call

Faculty have been amazing. Students, half my age, have been fantastic. Ageism exists but most students (and faculty) want to know about your experiences. Milk it.

I hope this helps
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Very informative and helpful post; thank you!
 
hearteries,

Thank you for your thorough description of your process and fingers crossed for you to have multiple acceptances.

How long did it take you to go through your preparation process of research, shadowing, studying etc?

The selfish piece has been weighing on me a bit, to the point that I've been looking again at other school options. But another mid-level degree will not get me the preparation I need for what I ultimately want to do.

I am actually looking at one of the MS in Medicine degrees right now that still has applications open for the fall. I can't get them to call me back though. They do respond to emails, but I'd like to find out what happens if you matriculate as an MD student at the same school after being in a year of classes alongside medical students - repeating the same basic science courses again with the same professors doesn't seem right but that's what it sounds like.
 
At U. Cincinnati's SMP, that's exactly what happens--you take the M1 courses as an SMP student, and then you matriculate there and take the same courses over again.

I don't know that I'd do an SMP in your case--your academics are old but they're good. SMPs are for people who have something wrong with their GPA and need a Hail Mary to show the schools that they really can hack medical school. I would instead take some of the basics that you need for MCAT prep (and get As, of course).
 
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