Latest MGMA data

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I have heard that salary numbers have reduced from last year. Does anyone has access to latest MGMA salary data for pain management? If yes, can you please post the number with percentiles?

 

[emd123]

I have heard that salary numbers have reduced from last year. Does anyone has access to latest MGMA salary data for pain management? If yes, can you please post the number with percentiles?

http://www.beckersasc.com/pain-mana...hysician-compensation-13-recent-findings.html

 

[PMR2008]

How is it that Anesthesia pain physicians make more than non anesthesia pain physicians when they do they same type of procedures? Is it just because of sheer volume or is it the type of procedures performed?

 

[Ligament]

How is it that Anesthesia pain physicians make more than non anesthesia pain physicians when they do they same type of procedures? Is it just because of sheer volume or is it the type of procedures performed?

Its volume and type of procedures, and they are not wasting time ordering things like PT, Bone scans, EMGs, etc. LOL

 

[hyperalgesia]

How is it that Anesthesia pain physicians make more than non anesthesia pain physicians when they do they same type of procedures? Is it just because of sheer volume or is it the type of procedures performed?

LIke Ligament says, it's both. There are a lot of pain guys out there that don't even do procedures at all and make their money by yapping all day. Very few of these guys are anesthesiologists.

 

[emd123]

Agree. Likely a lot of "dabblers" too, who do part time pain and may not have trained on the anesthesia Pain model, and don't know or care to do the full array of interventions

 

[facets]

Because anesthesiologists are trained with surgeons screaming "hurry up this patient is going to die of old age before you get ready" We learn to work very quickly. No time for diddling around perfecting views while everyone in the room gets nuked. Yes, you can work very carefully but quickly

 

[101N]

Because anesthesiologists are trained with surgeons screaming "hurry up this patient is going to die of old age before you get ready" We learn to work very quickly. No time for diddling around perfecting views while everyone in the room gets nuked. Yes, you can work very carefully but quickly

Nice try, but it's not efficiency that accounts for the disparity.

 

[facets]

is to

 

[PMR 4 MSK]

More likely it's the sheer volume of "series of 3" that get done on every patient with back pain regardless of PE, MRI, etc, and when that fails go to FJI followed by RFA. And when that fails say "there's nothing more I can do for you" and kick them back to the PCP who will start them on Duragesic and send them to me.

 

[Dr. Ice]

More likely it's the sheer volume of "series of 3" that get done on every patient with back pain regardless of PE, MRI, etc, and when that fails go to FJI followed by RFA. And when that fails say "there's nothing more I can do for you" and kick them back to the PCP who will start them on Duragesic and send them to me.

That sounds just like my practice..except I also get it the post surgical dumps with chronic axial pain post fusion that "cannot possibly be due to the surgery becasue it was a slam dunk"

 

[101N]

More likely it's the sheer volume of "series of 3" that get done on every patient with back pain regardless of PE, MRI, etc, and when that fails go to FJI followed by RFA. And when that fails say "there's nothing more I can do for you" and kick them back to the PCP who will start them on Duragesic and send them to me.

1+. However many Pm&r folks are similarly guilty. I remember one of us who used to boast that any Pm&r guy who isn't netting 750k isnt worth his salt.

 

[SSdoc33]

1+. However many Pm&r folks are similarly guilty. I remember one of us who used to boast that any Pm&r guy who isn't netting 750k isnt worth his salt.

750K? wow, i should really slow down 😉

 

[Jcm800]

http://www.beckersasc.com/pain-mana...hysician-compensation-13-recent-findings.html

who is making this kind of money!!!!!

 

[Jcm800]

is to

hahah!!!!!

 

[Gauss]

Apparently I'm grossly underpaid

 

[emd123]

who is making this kind of money!!!!!

I suspect the ones answering the survey 🙂

 

[101N]

apparently i'm grossly underpaid

1+

 

[ziggyziggy]

who is making this kind of money!!!!!

Just my impression: any pain physician who does some procedures makes around 400 K

Money = Fn { Interventions + patient contacts + Insurance }



What is the average pay out percent you guys are getting in terms of billing ? I think the previous survey had around 26% ( ~ 1.6 mil of billing and 400 K pay out)

 

[101N]

Just my impression: any pain physician who does some procedures makes around 400 K

Money = Fn { Interventions + patient contacts }

That's about it, we just show up and 'they' write us a check for about 400K/yr.

 

[hyperalgesia]

Just my impression: any pain physician who does some procedures makes around 400 K

Money = Fn { Interventions + patient contacts + Insurance }



What is the average pay out percent you guys are getting in terms of billing ? I think the previous survey had around 26% ( ~ 1.6 mil of billing and 400 K pay out)

I think $400k (take home), made honestly, takes a hell of a lot of hard work and a LOT of interventions. And those excellent procedure referrals don't fall into one's lap either.

 

[ziggyziggy]

That's about it, we just show up and 'they' write us a check for about 400K/yr.

showing up will not cut it. 😛... otherwise everyone will be making same money.

I think $400k (take home), made honestly, takes a hell of a lot of hard work and a LOT of interventions. And those excellent procedure referrals don't fall into one's lap either.

No doubt, these people are working very hard and 1.6 mil. billing in a year is not a joke !!!

 

[facets]

Overhead runs about 50%, collections 50%, taxes 50%, so to get $200,000 take home bill1.6 mil, collect 800K, 400 k goes to overhead then half of the remaining 400 goes back to the goverment so out of 1.6 mil billed you get 200 K. Hard to explain to your spouse who says " so what if I spent $400 on sunglasses you make that much in one morning" actually dear I made $800 all day. Thanks for appreciating it

 

[Gauss]

that is appraoching signature worthy facets, you're golden

 

[facets]

Actually it was my former spouse, and the worst decision of my life

 

[101N]

Actually it was my former spouse, and the worst decision of my life

Listen up, if your spouse ever, EVER, starts talking horses put your foot down quick. Horse = money pit.

 

[hyperalgesia]

Listen up, if your spouse ever, EVER, starts talking horses put your foot down quick. Horse = money pit.

Whenever someone starts talking about spouse, I put my foot down heheh

 

[knoxdoc]

Actually it was my former spouse, and the worst decision of my life

Those $400 sunglasses don't sound so expensive after all, huh facets?

 

[Jcm800]

Overhead runs about 50%, collections 50%, taxes 50%, so to get $200,000 take home bill1.6 mil, collect 800K, 400 k goes to overhead then half of the remaining 400 goes back to the goverment so out of 1.6 mil billed you get 200 K. Hard to explain to your spouse who says " so what if I spent $400 on sunglasses you make that much in one morning" actually dear I made $800 all day. Thanks for appreciating it

i think when he says "take home" he actually mean before taxes. like what he reports as income... 400K AFTER taxes, is a lot of money to make...

 

[ziggyziggy]

i think when he says "take home" he actually mean before taxes. like what he reports as income... 400K AFTER taxes, is a lot of money to make...

👍

 

[drf]

A few years ago I phone interviewed with a PP group in the south. The founder, then four years in, offered me 60% collections off the bat, with some monthly stipend for the first three months. 4 offices around the city. ASC and MRI buy in. He offered to open the books if I came and interviewed and stated he collected $220k and month. Collected. Promised me it was not a block shop and truly multidisciplinary with PT and psych. Sounded great.

Then I spoke with one guy on the partnership track. Salaried at $140k x 2 years. Working 7-7 5 days a week, with 1-2 hours of driving on top due to the many sites, then 2-4 hours of charting each weekday and 10-20 hours on weekends. He sounded beat down. I declined.

 

[facets]

i think when he says "take home" he actually mean before taxes. like what he reports as income... 400K AFTER taxes, is a lot of money to make...

Oh docshark don't interfere with my latest rant, I was on a roll

Seriously though I know thats what he meant but people need to do the math and realize that after the piper is paid they don't get as much as it sounds like they are getting. That's how people get underwater IMHO. Live simply and life is much less stressful. Don't chase the last dollar when accepting a job because in the end you don't see all that much of it, esp after your spouse gets through with her shopping.

 

[Jcm800]

Oh docshark don't interfere with my latest rant, I was on a roll

Seriously though I know thats what he meant but people need to do the math and realize that after the piper is paid they don't get as much as it sounds like they are getting. That's how people get underwater IMHO. Live simply and life is much less stressful. Don't chase the last dollar when accepting a job because in the end you don't see all that much of it, esp after your spouse gets through with her shopping.

mo' money, mo problems...

can i get at least a FEW more problems...aside from the wife and kids.

For instance a 911 like all these crazies on this board (im just jealous with my practical nissan product, whose back seat is full of cherios, milk, and and occasional vomit...)

 

[SSdoc33]

1.6 million in "billing" is meaningless. i could do one ESI/year and bill a million dollars for it. collections are the only thing that counts.

i think you gotta work pretty hard to pull down 400K, no matter how you slice it.

the older i get, the more it seems like life is about trying to figure out how other people are stealing your money, then trying to prevent it as much as possible. examples: insurance, my wife, cell phone agreements, cable bill, telemarketers, "financial advisors", federal, state, and local governments, my wife, credit card companies, general contractors, auto mechanics, and my wife.

 

[facets]

mo' money, mo problems...

can i get at least a FEW more problems...aside from the wife and kids.

For instance a 911 like all these crazies on this board (im just jealous with my practical nissan product, whose back seat is full of cherios, milk, and and occasional vomit...)

as you get older your children will become you most cherished possessions, really. I dont know about the spouse

 

[lobelsteve]

as you get older your children will become you most cherished possessions, really. I dont know about the spouse

Send her to Georgia.... 😱😀😀

 

[drusso]

Listen up, if your spouse ever, EVER, starts talking horses put your foot down quick. Horse = money pit.

Horse = a boat that eats hay. I remember hearing one economist quip that the only consumer purchase worse than a boat is a blimp.

 

[drusso]

1.6 million in "billing" is meaningless. i could do one ESI/year and bill a million dollars for it. collections are the only thing that counts.

i think you gotta work pretty hard to pull down 400K, no matter how you slice it.

the older i get, the more it seems like life is about trying to figure out how other people are stealing your money, then trying to prevent it as much as possible. examples: insurance, my wife, cell phone agreements, cable bill, telemarketers, "financial advisors", federal, state, and local governments, my wife, credit card companies, general contractors, auto mechanics, and my wife.

I hear ya. The older I get the fewer friends I have...just people who want to charge me rent.

 

[ziggyziggy]

1.6 million in "billing" is meaningless. i could do one ESI/year and bill a million dollars for it. collections are the only thing that counts.

i think you gotta work pretty hard to pull down 400K, no matter how you slice it.

the older i get, the more it seems like life is about trying to figure out how other people are stealing your money, then trying to prevent it as much as possible. examples: insurance, my wife, cell phone agreements, cable bill, telemarketers, "financial advisors", federal, state, and local governments, my wife, credit card companies, general contractors, auto mechanics, and my wife.

Billing is not meaningless if you are paid a percent of your billing.

I 100% agree that I can earn much more by just saving myself from thieves. What I save is mine and no one takes a penny.

So, How much are you guys billing and what is the pay out percent you guys are getting in terms of billing ? I think the previous survey had around 26% ( ~ 1.6 mil of billing and 400 K pay out Pre-Tax)

 

[101N]

Billing is not meaningless if you are paid a percent of your billing.

I 100% agree that I can earn much more by just saving myself from thieves. What I save is mine and no one takes a penny.

So, How much are you guys billing and what is the pay out percent you guys are getting in terms of billing ? I think the previous survey had around 26% ( ~ 1.6 mil of billing and 400 K pay out Pre-Tax)

I think the mods ought to punt this conversation to the private area.

 

[ziggyziggy]

I think the mods ought to punt this conversation to the private area.

I agree but don't have access to private forum. 😡😡😡

 

[emd123]

Horse = a boat that eats hay..

Wife = horse that eats money

 

[SSdoc33]

Billing is not meaningless if you are paid a percent of your billing.

I 100% agree that I can earn much more by just saving myself from thieves. What I save is mine and no one takes a penny.

So, How much are you guys billing and what is the pay out percent you guys are getting in terms of billing ? I think the previous survey had around 26% ( ~ 1.6 mil of billing and 400 K pay out Pre-Tax)

billing STILL is meaningless. who sets the rate for what you are billing? you could bill $1000/epidural, or $1/epidural. if you are paid on a percent of your billing then your employer would want the lowest possible amount billed/injection or service. thats just pretty dumb if that is indeed your set-up. RVUs are a different story.

say you bill 1000/epidural, but only get paid 200. who cares what you bill? again, the only thing that SHOULD matter is collections.

you will not find a reasonable answer to your question about how much we are billing because nobody cares and it doesnt matter.

 

[facets]

Billings are without meaning unless they are based on some benchmark. IE we bill at 2 X medicare, we have mostly mc, and private insurance in AZ is no better so collections should be 50%. If I went to 25% I would be very worried

 

[ziggyziggy]

billing STILL is meaningless. who sets the rate for what you are billing? you could bill $1000/epidural, or $1/epidural. if you are paid on a percent of your billing then your employer would want the lowest possible amount billed/injection or service. thats just pretty dumb if that is indeed your set-up. RVUs are a different story.

say you bill 1000/epidural, but only get paid 200. who cares what you bill? again, the only thing that SHOULD matter is collections.

you will not find a reasonable answer to your question about how much we are billing because nobody cares and it doesnt matter.

Still learning the intricacies of "how can I screw you best?"
I was told the billing will be according to Blue cross blue shield. Don't know how the billing or reimbursement rates are for BCBS in comparison to medicare.
But, did found this though on medicare fee schedule 2011. First one is billing and the second one is reimbursed amount.

64483 INJ ANES/STER TRNFOR LUM/SACRAL $1,080.00 $107.17
64484 INJ ANES/STER TRNFOR LUMB EA ADD $460.00 $67.74

Do these numbers look comparable to people who take BCBS ?

 

[SSdoc33]

Still learning the intricacies of "how can I screw you best?"
I was told the billing will be according to Blue cross blue shield. Don't know how the billing rates are for this in comparison to medicare.
But, did found this though on medicare fee schedule. First one is billing and the second one is reimbursed amount.

64483 INJ ANES/STER TRNFOR LUM/SACRAL $1,080.00 $107.17 64484 INJ ANES/STER TRNFOR LUMB EA ADD $460.00 $67.74
Do these numbers look comparable to people who take BCBS ?

right, so payment based on billing adds a level on complication in order to screw you more, because you have to figure out what is a reasonable fudge factor for every E&M, and procedure you do. you can factor the numbers out with RVUs and see if its reasonable, but its an inefficient way to do it

 

[PMR 4 MSK]

I don't remember what they are called, but there are tables that tell you what other docs are billing for codes, divided into quartile %. Most docs that know about these shoot for 75 - 90%ile.

 

[Jcm800]

Billing is not meaningless if you are paid a percent of your billing.

I 100% agree that I can earn much more by just saving myself from thieves. What I save is mine and no one takes a penny.

So, How much are you guys billing and what is the pay out percent you guys are getting in terms of billing ? I think the previous survey had around 26% ( ~ 1.6 mil of billing and 400 K pay out Pre-Tax)

And who is paid a percentage of billing?

 

[lobelsteve]

😍😍

And who is paid a percentage of billing?

 

[ziggyziggy]

right, so payment based on billing adds a level on complication in order to screw you more, because you have to figure out what is a reasonable fudge factor for every E&M, and procedure you do. you can factor the numbers out with RVUs and see if its reasonable, but its an inefficient way to do it

I can't tell how the system is in terms of efficiency and complication as I haven't used it so far. But on face value, it is similar to RVU system and is independent of payor mix and insurance denials. You will be billing everyone as same.
In term of incentive payout, it is similar to collections. In collection based incentive you get around 40-50% payout while, in billing you are paid 25%. Both end up giving similar take home pre-tax money.

Am I missing anything in jigsaw?

And who is paid a percentage of billing?

Maybe me. 😕 Still debating.