Law student/lawyer wants to become a doctor

[LawNonTrad]

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[Absentia]

The law degree will only help you since it proves you can handle professional school.

Yes, do your pre-reqs and get a decent mcat and you'll be fine.

 

[voitokas]

Since you'll be older, you'll have to do quite well on your MCAT and post-bac GPA to be considered at out-of state allopathic schools. So make sure you have enough financial backing to not have to work full-time for the next couple of years. If you end up older, non-minority, and below 3.5/35, you may consider DO schools. Good luck!

 

[LawNonTrad]

Thank you both for your encouragement! This site is a treasure trove of information for prospective non-traditional applicants and I intend to mine it for every piece of info that will benefit me.

I thought of a few more questions if you don't mind.

I am wondering when I would be able to apply for medical school if I applied for and was accepted into the post-bacc program at SUNY Stony Brook?

I know that all medical schools schools require these prereqs:

1 year of bio with lab
1 year of chem with lab
1 year of org chem with lab
1 year of physics with lab
1 year of calculus (I'd have to take calc 1 again I think because I took the business calc 1 course in college)

I assume that my first year of post-bacc (Fall 2010 and Spring 2011) would allow me to knock out bio, chem, and physics. Is chem 2 a prereq for org? I assume that it is. So let's say that in the fall of 2010, I take bio 1 with lab, chem 1 with lab, physics 1 with lab and calc 1. In spring of 2011, I take bio 2 with lab, chem 2 with lab, physics 2 with lab and calc 2. Is that a ridiculously tough schedule to take? It sounds at least moderately difficult to me; that's for sure. So by the end of the first post-bacc year I would have completed all of the science pre-reqs, but I wouldn't have completed org yet. Medical schools won't look at me until they see my org grades, correct? So theoretically, the earliest I could apply to medical schools is in the fall of 2012, after already completing TWO years of post-bac correct? This is because I'd have to spend the fall of 2011 and spring of 2012 taking both org 1 and 2, because I don't think I can take org 1 without having completed both chem 1 and 2. But how would this work anyway, considering that those would be the only two pre-reqs that I'd need? Would it make more sense for me to space the first-year classes out more into second year and allow myself more time each semester to get some experience with 1) volunteering in hospitals, 2) shadowing doctors, and 3) perhaps conducting some research for an interested professor?

Voitokas, I have a few specifically for you if you don't mind, but everyone else on here is free to chime in as well. First question: Stony Brook says that they look for applicants for their post-bac program with around a 3.3 cum gpa. My undergrad gpa is 3.24 but it has a huge upward trend. I averaged a 3.6 my last two years there. I also will have a 3.4 from law school. Will they look at my law school gpa at all in considering me? I hope so.

And now to the second question:: If I completed the prereqs listed above while maintaining a 3.5+ GPA in it (and I really think that if I devoted myself to my coursework each semester that I could probably end up with a 3.7 in the prereqs) and If I nailed the MCAT (32+), would I be a competitive applicant for admission at an in-state allopathic school such as SUNY Buffalo or ideally SUNY Upstate after completing the above?

Third question: Will my photographic memory and generally strong rote memorization skills be a significant aid to me in medical school? They have not been in law school because law school professors don't care what you know, they care far more about your ability to reason in a cogent fashion

LAST question in this post (for anyone who wishes to answer): Should I still take the bar exam next July? I've already paid a significant amount of money into taking the course, and I'm pretty confident that I will able to pass it. After passing it, I will be a licensed attorney.

I apologize for the pointed and specific questions posed in this post-you can blame my law school training for it.

I also should mention that I have no debt up to this point because my parents have been so hopefuly but if I were to embark on this adventure I would be financing it through loans.

Thanks for all of your help!

 

[betterlate]

I know that if I want to apply to medical school that I need to complete a post-bacc program, so that I could complete all the prereqs that I never took in undergrad. I would probably need to start with biology 101, chem 101, physics 101, calc 1, etc., but that wouldn't bother me. Am I correct in assuming that if I was accepted into a post-bacc basic sciences program, that my science gpa would basically be fresh? The only two science courses that I took in undergrad were geology and biology and life (easy biology course specifically designed for non-science majors). I never took introductory bio, chem, or physics in college.

Med schools look at your GPA in two ways - both cumulative and your BCPM, which is your gpa for bio, chem, physics, and math. Even though your past science courses don't count toward the premed prereqs, per se, they will be included in your BCPM as will your calc grade.

With regards to how many years of postbacc you'll need to be considered for an allopathic med school, obviously it depends on how many classes you take at a time, etc. To apply you will need 1 year each of gen chem, organic chem, bio, and physics. Some schools want one or two semesters of calculus, but most med schools don't require this. (You should check and see if any of your top-choice schools do have this requirement so you aren't caught unawares when application time rolls around.)

Your law degree will not be a mark against you on its own. Look around this forum and you'll see a ton of people who have/are/will be changing careers to go into medicine. It isn't that unusual, so I don't think adcoms will automatically rule you out just because already have one professional degree under your belt. This is particularly true if you have a clear explanation of how and why you decided to make the switch to medicine.

You may, in fact, have the experience necessary to know without a shadow of doubt that medicine is the right career for you. That isn't clear from your post, however, so I would STRONGLY urge you to get plenty of exposure to clinical medicine - either through volunteering or shadowing or both - before you commit to making this change. Even though your father is a physician, if you haven't spent significant time w/ him on the job you may not have a good sense of whether or it would be a good fit for you. It would really stink to put in a ton of time and money only to realize later that this isn't what you want, either.

There's plenty of time to figure that out for certain, though, as you work through the prereq coursework.

Good luck!

 

[kia ora]

having a law degree certainly will not hurt you in the med school admissions process, but I'm not so sure about having a law degree that you've never used. all the lawyers-turned-med students/doctors that I know (and know of) practiced law for at least a few years before attending medical school. I'm no adcom, but I would think that going straight from law school to a premed post-bacc will be viewed either negatively or neutrally. perhaps one of the adcoms on SDN will weigh in on this issue.

your law school gpa is pretty irrelevant in this process. mine was much lower than yours (though I went to a top-5 law school) and it hasn't come up during the app/interview process. the interviewers I've met so far have seemed to be impressed with my law career (far more impressed than I am!)

also, you say you are certain that you won't be happy practicing law, but how can you really know without trying it? for me, law school =/= the practice of law. I didn't enjoy law school very much, but I loved being a lawyer.

as for whether you should take the bar exam, your post makes it sound as if you've already been studying for it. if so, with all due respect that is ridiculous - it's not until the end of July and you haven't even graduated yet! anyhow, I'd suggest taking it because if the med school thing doesn't work out, you at least will have a license to practice law. however, if you are absolutely sure that you don't want to ever practice law no matter what, I wouldn't bother. the bar exam is not horribly difficult, but it is a long and exhausting exam and it's pretty expensive to pay for the prep course, exam, licensing fees and then you have to do CLE.

to echo what's been suggested upthread: shadow, volunteer, make sure you know what you're getting into before you ditch the law and sign up for undergraduate science classes. good luck with all of your decisions and with all of the work you have ahead, no matter what you do!

oh, incidentally, there are no medical schools in Montana 🙂

 

[futureboy]

Take the bar exam while the material is fresh. If you change your mind about medicine, it will be much more difficult to remember the material if you take it later. It's not that difficult to keep your license current by taking CLE seminars, and sometimes you can find free/cheap ones. If you don't want to bother with CLE, your state may allow you to put your license on inactive status to be reactivated later if necessary.

 

[kia ora]

Take the bar exam while the material is fresh. If you change your mind about medicine, it will be much more difficult to remember the material if you take it later. It's not that difficult to keep your license current by taking CLE seminars, and sometimes you can find free/cheap ones. If you don't want to bother with CLE, your state may allow you to put your license on inactive status to be reactivated later if necessary.

this is probably good advice. however, depending on the law school it might not matter. I took a bar exam shortly after graduation and almost nothing from school was helpful for the actual exam questions (good analytical skills, issue-spotting, good writing skills were helpful of course, but I learned no black-letter law in law school; that all came from the bar review). a few years later I moved to another state and took its bar exam (no reciprocity) and easily passed after spending a couple of months reviewing some prep materials. maybe it's different with the SUNYs and the NY bar, though? in any event, it's probably best to take the exam directly the summer after graduation because you still (should) have the discipline to study for it!

as for free/cheap CLE, I was able to do free CLE through my employer, but after I left there I realized how rare free CLE credits are. it would be almost impossible to get enough for a reporting period. and CLE is expensive!

anyhow, OP, yes take the bar because you might need that license!

 

[Absentia]

I don't know if this was answered but I believe if you already took Calculus 1, then you don't have to retake it. Also, Stat 1 +2 can replace Calc 2. They look at all of your transcripts from college.

You will definately be competitive for D.O. school with that prospective 3.7 gpa and 32+ mcat. I am not sure how MD looks at post bac. but since you are a special case I'm sure they will overlook your previous gpa.

 

[LawNonTrad]

h

 

[MBHockey]

Since you'll be older, you'll have to do quite well on your MCAT and post-bac GPA to be considered at out-of state allopathic schools. So make sure you have enough financial backing to not have to work full-time for the next couple of years. If you end up older, non-minority, and below 3.5/35, you may consider DO schools. Good luck!

I'm sorry, are you saying if he gets a 35 on the mcat and has a 3.4 he should apply to DO?

If so, that is complete nonsense.

 

[LawNonTrad]

I'm sorry, are you saying if he gets a 35 on the mcat and has a 3.4 he should apply to DO?

If so, that is complete nonsense.

MBHockey, original poster here. I shoud say first off that I'm not really interested in out of state medical schools. I'm from Upstate NY and I would love to stay in Upstate NY if possible.

I was under the impression that cumulative GPA matters more than science gpa. I'm looking at the websites for SUNY Upstate and SUNY Buffalo medical schools right now, and both of them have cumulative gpa averages for entering MS1s that are around 3.65. I had a 3.24 gpa in undergrad. Granted, I've been to law school as well, and haven't taken any science prereqs, but I thought that my 3.24 cum undergrad gpa will still be held against me. Even if I ace every science prereq next school year, my undergrad cumulative GPA will still only be a 3.35. I'd assuming that the adcomms would just add my post-law school science prereqs into my undergrad gpa, because those courses are 400 level or below. Will it matter to the adcomms that my science GPA is a 3.7 when they look at cumulative GPA before anything else? I feel like even if I do pull a 34 or something on the MCAT that I'll have a tough time getting into an allopathic school because they'll look at my 3.35ish cum and 3.7 science and say that my cum is too low. Maybe they'll evaluate me differently because I'd be a non- traditional applicant that didn't spend four years in a science major.

But what do you think?

 

[Absentia]

I'm sorry, are you saying if he gets a 35 on the mcat and has a 3.4 he should apply to DO?

If so, that is complete nonsense.

DO school is a good back up plan. He should apply to both MD and DO.

 

[Old Grunt]

Since you'll be older, you'll have to do quite well on your MCAT and post-bac GPA to be considered at out-of state allopathic schools. So make sure you have enough financial backing to not have to work full-time for the next couple of years. If you end up older, non-minority, and below 3.5/35, you may consider DO schools. Good luck!

That's a curious statement. I've never heard anyone make the claim that being older means you have to do better to get in. School certainly can't discriminate against an applicant due to age (at least not legally).

I found as an older applicant, that being older helped my application and I certainly didn't have a 35 on my MCAT. I can't imagine how a J.D. would not be a plus on an application.

Can you clarify your remarks?

I do agree that the OP needs to rock his basic sciences, both to bring his GPA up and to demonstrate competency in left-brainism.

I do agree that the OP

 

[LawNonTrad]

DO school is a good back up plan. He should apply to both MD and DO.

Absentia, thanks for your help! Would I be a competitive applicant after only one year of taking prereqs, assuming that I do well in them and assuming that I do well (32+) on the MCAT? Could I apply to medical school immediately after getting my grade in org 2?

Folks, here are the stats for SUNY Upstate's class of 2012:

Average Undergraduate GPAs

• Total GPA 3.59
• Science GPA 3.53
• Non-science GPA 3.69

If I apply to a school like Upstate with a 3.35 total GPA and a 3.6 or 3.7 science, would I be competitive, assuming my MCAT is a couple of points above their range? My total GPA would be almost .35 lower than their total GPA, but the science GPA would be higher than their average.

My apologies for this additional question and extraedit of this post. I should buy all of you guys (and gals) something nice for being so helpful. 🙂

If calc is not a requirement for Upstate and other similar schools, should I bother taking calc 1 and 2?

 

[kia ora]

Absentia, thanks for your help! Would I be a competitive applicant after only one year of taking prereqs, assuming that I do well in them and assuming that I do well (32+) on the MCAT? Could I apply to medical school immediately after getting my grade in org 2?

don't assume you'll get a 32+ on the mcat. aim for that, sure, but don't underestimate that exam. it makes the lsat look like child's play. I did not have a 32+, my science gpa was lower than my cumulative gpa (which was higher than yours, just fyi) and I have been accepted at an allopathic school. I did, however, have several years of work experience, did well in the prereqs, had a bit of research experience and lots of other activities. this is a weird process. you just don't know how it's going to turn out. work hard, prepare the best application you can and have a backup plan.

oh, forgot to add: your post-bacc prereqs will be factored into your overall gpa. on amcas, the post-bacc classes also get their own gpa calculation, but for the important purpose, they will become part of your cumulative gpa. so get better than Bs and you will increase your cumulative gpa!

 

[Absentia]

Absentia, thanks for your help! Would I be a competitive applicant after only one year of taking prereqs, assuming that I do well in them and assuming that I do well (32+) on the MCAT? Could I apply to medical school immediately after getting my grade in org 2?

Folks, here are the stats for SUNY Upstate's class of 2012:

Average Undergraduate GPAs

• Total GPA 3.59
• Science GPA 3.53
• Non-science GPA 3.69

If I apply to a school like Upstate with a 3.35 total GPA and a 3.6 or 3.7 science, would I be competitive, assuming my MCAT is a couple of points above their range? My total GPA would be almost .35 lower than their total GPA, but the science GPA would be higher than their average.

Yes you will be competitive, there are free practice mcat exams. Take them and see how well you do. But for the Physical Science section, you actually have to study. There was one lawyer on here with like a 3.2 gpa that was accepted to medical school. I think his name was lawyer2 b doc.. Anyway, yeah it's possible.

 

[MBHockey]

That's a curious statement. I've never heard anyone make the claim that being older means you have to do better to get in. School certainly can't discriminate against an applicant due to age (at least not legally).

I found as an older applicant, that being older helped my application and I certainly didn't have a 35 on my MCAT. I can't imagine how a J.D. would not be a plus on an application.

Can you clarify your remarks?

I do agree that the OP needs to rock his basic sciences, both to bring his GPA up and to demonstrate competency in left-brainism.

I do agree that the OP

I agree wholeheartedly with this post.

I'm a non-trad. I did engineering and had a 3.3 GPA upon graduation since engineering was actually a challenge whereas premed courses are a joke in comparison (I have a 3.95 in my post-bac program and got a 35 on the mcat.)

I'm SURE they take this into account. I have gotten an interview invite with a top 10 med school with a science GPA of 3.70 (calculated by AMCAS) and a 35R even though I graduated from the Mech. Eng. program with a 3.3 (which was quite competitive in my program.)

So it also has to do with how AMCAS calculates your sGPA. I don't know why they included some of my engineering courses in this calculation (otherwise it'd be higher) but whatever.

I think it's absurd to say that because you're older you must have a higher MCAT to compensate.

 

[LawNonTrad]

MBHockey,

I didn't major in mechanical engineering though. I majored in management. The degree is from a school with an average entering SAT of over 1300 (on the old scale), but still, my major was nowhere near as difficult as yours. Would I be competitive at some MD schools, hypothetically speaking, with a 3.35 cum, 3.7 science, and 32 mcat?

 

[LawNonTrad]

Question addressed to anyone that would like to help me out:

Do I need to get into a formal post-bacc program like SUNY Stony Brook offers if I never took these required courses in college? Could I conceivably take these courses at any four-year college under the same status I'd be at Stony Brook: unmatriculated grad student? I think I'd be considered a grad student because I would already have a bachelor's degree (and a law degree, to boot), but unmatriculated because I wouldn't be completing a degree program here. Let's assume that I dominate the prereqs and get a 3.7, because I will be working my ass off, and let's assume that I also get a 32+ MCAT. These are not guarantees obviously, but let's work with those assumptions. Would an allopathic medical school still look at my application despite the fact that I wouldn't be enrolled in an official post-bacc program at the time of application?

Thanks!

 

[EdLongshanks]

DO school is a good back up plan. He should apply to both MD and DO.

I'm surprised that people who have been on SDN for awhile still have that MD over DO attitude. I felt that way a few months ago but a little study and reading SDN cured me. This is really an outdated attitude. It was true when I was young (many long yeeeeaaarrs ago) that a DO was a glorified chiropractor, but that hasn't been true for a long time. In recent years the two types of schools have been getting closer and in a few years will be close to indistinguishable.

I, personally, have come to the place where I think that I prefer a DO school. And my stats are NOT low. I have a 3.8 and my practice tests tell me that the MCAT isn't going to be a problem.

 

[MBHockey]

Question addressed to anyone that would like to help me out:

Do I need to get into a formal post-bacc program like SUNY Stony Brook offers if I never took these required courses in college? Could I conceivably take these courses at any four-year college under the same status I'd be at Stony Brook: unmatriculated grad student? I think I'd be considered a grad student because I would already have a bachelor's degree (and a law degree, to boot), but unmatriculated because I wouldn't be completing a degree program here. Let's assume that I dominate the prereqs and get a 3.7, because I will be working my ass off, and let's assume that I also get a 32+ MCAT. These are not guarantees obviously, but let's work with those assumptions. Would an allopathic medical school still look at my application despite the fact that I wouldn't be enrolled in an official post-bacc program at the time of application?

Thanks!

I don't think they care how you take the courses (as long as it's not a community college...I've heard that they don't really like that) as long as you take them, do well in them, and do well on the mcat.

Post-bac programs are beneficial for students (like yourself) because these programs have good advisors, relationships with med schools, and understand your situation better than a school that doesn't have a post-bac program.

 

[MBHockey]

I'm surprised that people who have been on SDN for awhile still have that MD over DO attitude. I felt that way a few months ago but a little study and reading SDN cured me. This is really an outdated attitude. It was true when I was young (many long yeeeeaaarrs ago) that a DO was a glorified chiropractor, but that hasn't been true for a long time. In recent years the two types of schools have been getting closer and in a few years will be close to indistinguishable.

I, personally, have come to the place where I think that I prefer a DO school. And my stats are NOT low. I have a 3.8 and my practice tests tell me that the MCAT isn't going to be a problem.

You're right, they are converging, but the fact is the average mcat and GPA for DO schools is significantly lower than for MD schools which is why they are used as backups. Until that changes (like, they start being as selective as MD schools) I don't see the practice of using DO as a backup ever changing. And I doubt this will ever happen.

 

[LawNonTrad]

I don't think they care how you take the courses (as long as it's not a community college...I've heard that they don't really like that) as long as you take them, do well in them, and do well on the mcat.

Post-bac programs are beneficial for students (like yourself) because these programs have good advisors, relationships with med schools, and understand your situation better than a school that doesn't have a post-bac program.

Thanks MB!

What about if I took the courses here as an unmatriculated student but still utilized the services of one of the premed advisors?

 

[Old Grunt]

I think it's absurd to say that because you're older you must have a higher MCAT to compensate.

It sounds like someone's blatant speculation that is not grounded in any facts.

My numbers certainly weren't stellar, but I had a successful application cycle due to being older and having some interesting life experiences.

Schools certainly couldn't state that there policy was to be more stringent on older applicants. That's straight up discrimination, though I am sure our budding lawyer would know much more about that than me.

 

[Old Grunt]

MBHockey,

I didn't major in mechanical engineering though. I majored in management. The degree is from a school with an average entering SAT of over 1300 (on the old scale), but still, my major was nowhere near as difficult as yours. Would I be competitive at some MD schools, hypothetically speaking, with a 3.35 cum, 3.7 science, and 32 mcat?

My degree was in business finance. The truth is that your undergrad degree doesn't matter much. Your GPA certainly does. If you haven't taken your science classes, I'd focus on crushing those and doing well on your MCAT. Then, when you are applying, apply early and broadly.

I know you are set on SUNY, but getting in is the most important thing and you don't want to handicap yourself.

 

[Old Grunt]

Question addressed to anyone that would like to help me out:

Do I need to get into a formal post-bacc program like SUNY Stony Brook offers if I never took these required courses in college? Could I conceivably take these courses at any four-year college under the same status I'd be at Stony Brook: unmatriculated grad student? I think I'd be considered a grad student because I would already have a bachelor's degree (and a law degree, to boot), but unmatriculated because I wouldn't be completing a degree program here. Let's assume that I dominate the prereqs and get a 3.7, because I will be working my ass off, and let's assume that I also get a 32+ MCAT. These are not guarantees obviously, but let's work with those assumptions. Would an allopathic medical school still look at my application despite the fact that I wouldn't be enrolled in an official post-bacc program at the time of application?

Thanks!

Yes. That's what I did. You don't have to be in a formal post-bac program, and I don't think schools care. They are only going to see the classes and grades on your AMCAS.

I would think that any decent pre-med advisor would be willing to assist you if you met with them and explained your situation.

Heck, you might be able to work out some quid-pro-quo and work with the pre-law adviser in exchange for help from the pre-med people.

 

[LawNonTrad]

My degree was in business finance. The truth is that your undergrad degree doesn't matter much. Your GPA certainly does. If you haven't taken your science classes, I'd focus on crushing those and doing well on your MCAT. Then, when you are applying, apply early and broadly.

I know you are set on SUNY, but getting in is the most important thing and you don't want to handicap yourself.

Thanks Old Grunt. The only reason I keep mentioning SUNY is that I hear the public schools in almost every state give at least moderate if not total preference to in state applicants. I think SUNYs give moderate preference. Because I'll be a non-trad and I'm from NY I thought that I would have a better shot of getting into those MD schools than any other ones. I also LOVE the fact that they're so much cheaper than any private school in the country. I'd rather finish this thing with 160k in debt instead of 240k.

I do intend to apply to about 25 schools. Maybe 20 MD and 5 DO. Is this enough, or should I be looking at applying to 30 or so?

Also, with regard to the bar exam, I was thinking about taking General Chem I and II next summer instead of that, and that way I could have all my prereqs complete by May 2011 instead of August 2011. I would then spend the next two months cramming for the MCAT. Then I could have all of my med school apps complete by the beginning of August, and I could apply to SUNY Upstate's Early Decision program. Does this sound like a good plan? I know that I probably should take the bar exam after school, but I could definitely take it later and pass it if I have use for a law license. I think that applying early in the med school cycle will be very beneficial for me and I want to have all of the prereqs complete before I do that.

Thanks for your help. I do intend to murder the science classes. I'm going to be using loans since I don't have any debt from undergrad or law school, and except for volunteering and shadowing for a total of 8-10 hours a week and some weekend studying for the MCAT, I'm not going to have any other obligations in my life while I'm taking my prereqs.

 

[LawNonTrad]

Yes. That's what I did. You don't have to be in a formal post-bac program, and I don't think schools care. They are only going to see the classes and grades on your AMCAS.

I would think that any decent pre-med advisor would be willing to assist you if you met with them and explained your situation.

Heck, you might be able to work out some quid-pro-quo and work with the pre-law adviser in exchange for help from the pre-med people.

Thank you Old Grunt! The info is very much appreciated!

I guess my first call I make this week should be to the pre-med department at UB, right? And I'll ask to set up a 15 or 30 minute meeting just to discuss my situation. I'm pretty sure that their services are only for undergrads and I'm a law student, but we'll see what they say.

One question about your post though: when you say work with the pre-law advisor, what do you mean? Offer to talk to kids at UB considering going to law school (especially if considering my school) in return for some pre-med advising? I could definitely do that.

My only fear about this endeavor is that even if I 1) ace all of my classes, 2) kill the MCAT with a 35, and 3) apply to 30 schools, none of the MDs will accept me.

 

[Old Grunt]

Thanks Old Grunt. The only reason I keep mentioning SUNY is that I hear the public schools in almost every state give at least moderate if not total preference to in state applicants. I think SUNYs give moderate preference. Because I'll be a non-trad and I'm from NY I thought that I would have a better shot of getting into those MD schools than any other ones. I also LOVE the fact that they're so much cheaper than any private school in the country. I'd rather finish this thing with 160k in debt than 240k.

I do intend to apply to about 25 schools. Maybe 20 MD and 5 DO. Is this enough, or should I be looking at applying to 30 or so?

Also, with regard to the bar exam, I was thinking about taking General Chem I and II next summer instead of that, and that way I could have all my prereqs complete by May 2011 instead of August 2011. I would then spend the next two months cramming for the MCAT. Then I could have all of my med school apps complete by mid-August of 2011. Does this sound like a good plan?

Thanks for your help. I do intend to murder the science classes. I'm going to be using loans since I don't have any debt from undergrad or law school, and except for volunteering and shadowing for a total of 8-10 hours a week and some weekend studying for the MCAT, I'm not going to have any other obligations in my life while I'm taking my prereqs.

It sounds like a really good idea (setting yourself up to apply in May as opposed to August).

On a side note, my wife is also a 3L (more on that later).

In retrospect, I completely shammed during the two years I took my basic sciences. Since you have to take the classes sequentially, I took 2-3 classes a semester and had a ton of time to basically "screw around".

While that enabled me to put a ton of time into the basic sciences and to basically get a 3.9 in them (much needed to raise my undergrad GPA), it wasn't the smartest thing to do as it built bad study habits that had to be corrected when I got to med school. The moral of the story is that I wish I'd worked a job during that time to force me to time manage. How that relates to you is that, perhaps you could get a job as a part time law clerk with your JD (which my wife is doing now as a 3L). That would be income to avoid loans and help you build the study habits that will help you in Med School. Coming out of law school, you might not need that (I went back to school cold turkey), but it's something to consider.

Good luck to you. You'll be amazed how easy it is to be awesome at Organic Chemistry when you are on a 1/2 load and have the time to work every problem in the book.

 

[Old Grunt]

Thank you Old Grunt! The info is very much appreciated!

I guess my first call I make this week should be to the pre-med department at UB, right? And I'll ask to set up a 15 or 30 minute meeting just to discuss my situation. I'm pretty sure that their services are only for undergrads and I'm a law student, but we'll see what they say.

Yeah, that's a wise move. I'd ask the person you are talking about to keep it under their hat so it doesn't get back to your faculty though. Also, keep in mind that pre-med advisors sometimes give bad advise. So don't take anything they say as "gospel". I'd go in with the attitude of "this is what I want to do, how do I make it happen?"

I doubt you'd get turned away for not being an undergrad, BTW.

One question about your post though: when you say work with the pre-law advisor, what do you mean? Offer to talk to kids at UB considering going to law school (especially if considering my school) in return for some pre-med advising? I could definitely do that.

Yeah, that's exactly what I mean.

My only fear about this endeavor is that even if I 1) ace all of my classes, 2) kill the MCAT with a 35, and 3) apply to 30 schools, none of the MDs will accept me.

Well, that's everyone's fear. I think you'll be okay though, even if you don't throw those kinds of numbers up. It is a numbers game, but there isn't a magic # you have to get. Different schools will look for different things and in the end, being willing to tell a compelling story and paint a full picture of yourself will serve you well.

BTW, if you have any Law School faculty you are close with, I'd have them write your LOR for Med School as soon as you make your final decision. If they have no background with medicine, have them go into the generalities (about how you are "bright, inquisitive student, yada yada yada.).

 

[LawNonTrad]

It sounds like a really good idea (setting yourself up to apply in May as opposed to August).

On a side note, my wife is also a 3L (more on that later).

In retrospect, I completely shammed during the two years I took my basic sciences. Since you have to take the classes sequentially, I took 2-3 classes a semester and had a ton of time to basically "screw around".

While that enabled me to put a ton of time into the basic sciences and to basically get a 3.9 in them (much needed to raise my undergrad GPA), it wasn't the smartest thing to do as it built bad study habits that had to be corrected when I got to med school. The moral of the story is that I wish I'd worked a job during that time to force me to time manage. How that relates to you is that, perhaps you could get a job as a part time law clerk with your JD (which my wife is doing now as a 3L). That would be income to avoid loans and help you build the study habits that will help you in Med School. Coming out of law school, you might not need that (I went back to school cold turkey), but it's something to consider.

Good luck to you. You'll be amazed how easy it is to be awesome at Organic Chemistry when you are on a 1/2 load and have the time to work every problem in the book.

Thanks Old Grunt!

I guess I left some important info out of my posts: I have worked a customer service job 17 hours a week since the first year of law school. Because I chose to do that, I learned the valuable time management skills. Additionally, I clerked on a law journal and the moot court team and mediation- all of those activities also consumed large amounts of time. So I definitely understand how having obligations in one's life encourages someone to prioritize tasks efficiently. I do believe that financing the education with loans will definitely motivate me to dominate my classes and continue with good study habits, because I am not a big fan of debt (who is?). I know that the kids at my school with 200k in debt from undergrad and law school are some of the top kids in my class. I'm sure it motivated them too. Does this sound reasonable?

I definitely understand your wife's decision to clerk as a 3L-it's good experience in this economy. I am just not a big fan of the law right now. I did it both summers and I think that doing it while taking prereqs would just be a distraction. If I can fill 10 hours a week with unpaid hospital volunteering and shadowing then would that be helpful to my app as well?

Also, would the fact that I don't have any scientific research projects/papers on my app when I apply be a big mark against me? I'd be a non-trad applicant so I'm sure other non-trads might be in the same boat.

Thanks!

 

[LawNonTrad]

Will not taking calc 2 or another calc in undergrad hurt me in the app process? I think I mentioned that I took calc 1 in college. It was a course for business majors, but we still learned the calc.

Also, if I completed the prereqs by Spring 2011 and then applied for med school to start in Fall 2012, would it be wise for me to take upper level science courses that year (Fall 2011 and Spring 2012) such as genetics and biochem? Or should I just stop after completing my prereqs that my applied-to schools require?

Thanks!

 

[Old Grunt]

Will not taking calc 2 or another calc in undergrad hurt me in the app process? I think I mentioned that I took calc 1 in college. It was a course for business majors, but we still learned the calc.

Also, if I completed the prereqs by Spring 2011 and then applied for med school to start in Fall 2012, would it be wise for me to take upper level science courses that year (Fall 2011 and Spring 2012) such as genetics and biochem? Or should I just stop after completing my prereqs that my applied-to schools require?

Thanks!

Oh, an important bit of advice that I don't think has been mentioned here. Buy the Medical School Admissions Requirements (MSAR) from the AAMC. You can find it online, or possibly in your book store.

If you do that, and look inside, you will see that most medical schools don't require Calculus.

I wouldn't let it hold you up, but if you have the opportunity, I'd definitely try and take Biochemistry and Genetics before applying if possible. Other good ones would be courses that you will take in Med School (i.e. physiology, anatomy, histology).

That's all lagniappe and stuff you can do to make your MSI year less painful (though many schools require genetics).

 

[LawNonTrad]

Oh, an important bit of advice that I don't think has been mentioned here. Buy the Medical School Admissions Requirements (MSAR) from the AAMC. You can find it online, or possibly in your book store.

If you do that, and look inside, you will see that most medical schools don't require Calculus.

I wouldn't let it hold you up, but if you have the opportunity, I'd definitely try and take Biochemistry and Genetics before applying if possible. Other good ones would be courses that you will take in Med School (i.e. physiology, anatomy, histology).

That's all lagniappe and stuff you can do to make your MSI year less painful (though many schools require genetics).

Thanks OldGrunt. Yeah, I saw after googling that most don't require it-that's good. I don't think I'll have time to take them before applying if possible, but I could definitely take them during and after the application cycle if you think it would help in medical school.

My proposed course schedule is as follows:

Spring 2010: complete law school and graduate with my degree

Summer 2010: take chem 1 and 2

Fall 2010: take bio 1, org 1, and physics 1

Spring 2011: take bio 2, org 2, and physics 2.

By May 2011, all my prereqs would be complete (2 sems each of bio, chem, physics and org).

I might consider taking the MCAT in April of 2011 as well, because I read some websites that recommended it as a possibility, because my courses iwll have covered all the requisite material by April and it will be fresh in my mind.

I would then have all my app stuff done and in by July. If I choose to wait to apply until I have completed those additional courses then I won't be able to apply until the Fall 2012 cycle and then I won't be able to start school until 2013. I want to be finished with medical school by age 31, and starting in 2012 would allow that to happen.

What do you think? Would the adcomms hold it against me if I haven't completed anything beyond the prereqs at that point?

Also, what do you mean when you say a lot of schools require genetics? Do you mean they require that you take it in medical school or that you have completed it before applying? If it's the latter, I might be up a nasty creek without a paddle. Thanks.

 

[Old Grunt]

Thanks OldGrunt. Yeah, I saw after googling that most don't require it-that's good. I don't think I'll have time to take them before applying if possible, but I could definitely take them during and after the application cycle if you think it would help in medical school.

My proposed course schedule is as follows:

Spring 2010: complete law school and graduate with my degree

Summer 2010: take chem 1 and 2

Fall 2010: take bio 1, org 1, and physics 1

Spring 2011: take bio 2, org 2, and physics 2.

By May 2011, all my prereqs would be complete (2 sems each of bio, chem, physics and org).

I might consider taking the MCAT in April of 2011 as well, because I read some websites that recommended it as a possibility, because my courses iwll have covered all the requisite material by April and it will be fresh in my mind.

I would then have all my app stuff done and in by July. If I choose to wait to apply until I have completed those additional courses then I won't be able to apply until the Fall 2012 cycle and then I won't be able to start school until 2013. I want to be finished with medical school by age 31, and starting in 2012 would allow that to happen.

What do you think? Would the adcomms hold it against me if I haven't completed anything beyond the prereqs at that point?

Also, what do you mean when you say a lot of schools require genetics? Do you mean they require that you take it in medical school or that you have completed it before applying? If it's the latter, I might be up a nasty creek without a paddle. Thanks.

Sounds like a reasonable plan. No matter what, you really can't avoid the "lag year" (when you are interviewing for the following year), so I'd take any extras during that time.

In your circumstances, I don't think ADCOMs would hold it against you for just doing the pre-reqs, but that's a subjective issue.

Some schools require genetics before matriculation. Again, the MSAR will let you know all of that, as well as give you better advice than we can give you. It's a good book.

I'll amend my previous advice:

Step 1: Buy the MSAR and do some research on specific schools.
Step 2: Make a general plan
Step 3: Talk to a pre-med adviser about your situation.

 

[Old Grunt]

Sidebar to the OP:

Is "due process" a consideration in civil litigation?

Sorry for the legal question, I am just curious.

 

[LawNonTrad]

Sounds like a reasonable plan. No matter what, you really can't avoid the "lag year" (when you are interviewing for the following year), so I'd take any extras during that time.

In your circumstances, I don't think ADCOMs would hold it against you for just doing the pre-reqs, but that's a subjective issue.

Some schools require genetics before matriculation. Again, the MSAR will let you know all of that, as well as give you better advice than we can give you. It's a good book.

I'll amend my previous advice:

Step 1: Buy the MSAR and do some research on specific schools.
Step 2: Make a general plan
Step 3: Talk to a pre-med adviser about your situation.

Great advice, Old Grunt, thanks for your help.

And here's the answer to your due process question, with a disclaimer that it is not legal advice because I am not yet an attorney and there is no attorney-client relationship (sorry, they drilled that disclaimer into us during ethics):

Due process is ABSOLUTELY a consideration in civil litigation. Not only it is a consideration, it is a REQUIREMENT. While prison and other criminal penalties are not possible in civil litigation, the losing party in the suit will still be adversely affected by losing the lawsuit. The Fourteenth Amendment applies the Fifth Amendment guarantees of due process to the states and so both plaintiffs and defendants in lawsuits are accorded due process under the law. The plaintiff is accorded due process when they are allowed to file a complaint in court and have a chance to speak about it. The defendant is accorded due process when they are allowed to file an answer and to be heard as to their reasons why the claim isn't valid, etc. The rules governing presentation of evidence and filing requirements, the statutes of limitations for timely filing, etc. are some examples of how our courts ensure due process is given to parties in civil litigation.

If you'd like me to go into more detail about due process in civil litigation, I'd be glad to; just let me know. If you have specific questions about a type of case and the specific procedural protections that would apply then I can answer those as well.

 

[BennieBlanco]

That's a curious statement. I've never heard anyone make the claim that being older means you have to do better to get in. School certainly can't discriminate against an applicant due to age (at least not legally).

I found as an older applicant, that being older helped my application and I certainly didn't have a 35 on my MCAT. I can't imagine how a J.D. would not be a plus on an application.

Can you clarify your remarks?

I do agree that the OP needs to rock his basic sciences, both to bring his GPA up and to demonstrate competency in left-brainism.

I do agree that the OP

I think everyone did a double take when they read that original comment. lol. Without a 40+ MCAT and 4.0 w/ published research you may want to consider Caribbean schools.

 

[Old Grunt]

Great advice, Old Grunt, thanks for your help.

And here's the answer to your due process question, with a disclaimer that it is not legal advice because I am not yet an attorney and there is no attorney-client relationship (sorry, they drilled that disclaimer into us during ethics):

Due process is ABSOLUTELY a consideration in civil litigation. Not only it is a consideration, it is a REQUIREMENT. While prison and other criminal penalties are not possible in civil litigation, the losing party in the suit will still be adversely affected by losing the lawsuit. The Fourteenth Amendment applies the Fifth Amendment guarantees of due process to the states and so both plaintiffs and defendants in lawsuits are accorded due process under the law. The plaintiff is accorded due process when they are allowed to file a complaint in court and have a chance to speak about it. The defendant is accorded due process when they are allowed to file an answer and to be heard as to their reasons why the claim isn't valid, etc. The rules governing presentation of evidence and filing requirements, the statutes of limitations for timely filing, etc. are some examples of how our courts ensure due process is given to parties in civil litigation.

If you'd like me to go into more detail about due process in civil litigation, I'd be glad to; just let me know. If you have specific questions about a type of case and the specific procedural protections that would apply then I can answer those as well.

Absolutely understand it's just your opinion and not asking for any legal advice.

I was just curious, and that was more than sufficient. Thank you so much.

 

[BennieBlanco]

Sidebar to the OP:

Is "due process" a consideration in civil litigation?

Sorry for the legal question, I am just curious.

Side note...

I am very happy to see you spending a lot of time to help out!

🙂🙂🙂

Thanks for spending the time and I hope you are rewarded! Good job friend.

Standing O
[YOUTUBE]vQQhBp40Ml4[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Old Grunt]

I think everyone did a double take when they read that original comment. lol. Without a 40+ MCAT and 4.0 w/ published research you may want to consider Caribbean schools.

I've made some boneheaded statements on here, so I am somewhat sympathetic.

However, I am always curious when someone makes a statement of fact that is completely wrong. If you are speculating, say you are speculating.

Oh well, at least plenty of people jumped on it as the bunk that it was before someone got discouraged.

 

[Old Grunt]

Side note...

I am very happy to see you spending a lot of time to help out!

🙂🙂🙂

Thanks for spending the time and I hope you are rewarded! Good job friend.

Thank you so much. I am glad to help out in whatever capacity I can. We've all been there.

On that note, I need to get back to getting crushed by USMLE world qbank questions.

Here's some future advice: when you start doing qbank questions, you will wonder where the hell you were for the first two years of medical school (at least I do).

 

[LawNonTrad]

Absolutely understand it's just your opinion and not asking for any legal advice.

I was just curious, and that was more than sufficient. Thank you so much.

No problem. It was the least I could do for you after you posted 11 times in my thread. 🙂 You've been so helpful to me.

Do you think I'll be able to handle the bio, org and physics all in the same semester if they're the only classes I'm taking? My only other formal obligations would be 4 hours of volunteering and 3 hours of shadowing. I've talked to a couple of people who have taken the classes here, and they said that the org and physics are tough courses, but the bio is very basic and far easier. So that's good I guess. I'm a bit re-assured that I can handle the workload because I made it through law school, and I pulled more than a few all-nighters first year. I haven't had chemistry in almost 10 years though, and haven't had biology in 11 years, so we'll see. I'm more than willing to be the guy at the 24-hour undergraduate library studying 50 hours outside of class if that's what it takes to get full A's in all 3 courses each semester. I'm also willing to put in 50 hours a week outside of class to get full A's in chem 1 and chem 2 when I take them in the summer sessions. Would you recommend that I study more than that?

Edit: I just saw that you're working on USMLE. Feel free to take as long as you need to respond to any questions.

Thanks!

 

[LawNonTrad]

One more question for anyone who wishes to answer: I had to overcome stuttering twice in my life (and still struggle with it occasionally). I had to see a speech pathologist for 2 years starting at age 7. The stuttering came back at age 14 and I saw a speech pathologist for another year. I was also diagnosed with a learning disability at the same age (dysgraphia), and I've struggled with that for my entire life. Both the stuttering and dysgraphia are documented. Will the stuttering and dysgraphia experiences be positives or negatives in the application process? On the one hand, they might be seen as a positive in that I've had to work harder than most non-minority applicants in getting to the position I'm in today. I would never even try to compare my struggles to those of a minority applicant who has faced racism, discrimination, etc. On the other hand, could adcomms see my stuttering and dysgraphia and think that maybe I'm not cut out for medical school? How much will these experiences help or hurt me?

I honestly don't know.

 

[Old Grunt]

No problem. It was the least I could do for you after you posted 11 times in my thread. 🙂 You've been so helpful to me.

Do you think I'll be able to handle the bio, org and physics all in the same semester if they're the only classes I'm taking? My only other formal obligations would be 4 hours of volunteering and 3 hours of shadowing. I've talked to a couple of people who have taken the classes here, and they said that the org and physics are tough courses, but the bio is very basic and far easier. So that's good I guess. I'm a bit re-assured that I can handle the workload because I made it through law school, and I pulled more than a few all-nighters first year. I haven't had chemistry in almost 10 years though, and haven't had biology in 11 years, so we'll see. I'm more than willing to be the guy at the 24-hour undergraduate library studying 50 hours outside of class if that's what it takes to get full A's in all 3 courses each semester. I'm also willing to put in 50 hours a week outside of class to get full A's in chem 1 and chem 2 when I take them in the summer sessions. Would you recommend that I study more than that?

Edit: I just saw that you're working on USMLE. Feel free to take as long as you need to respond to any questions.

Thanks!

I think, in light of the work load you've been taking, that you would be fine (though, it's a different way of learning. Less writing, more memorization (based on my observation of my wife and I's curriculum, so take it for what it's worth)).

The nice thing about college is you can always drop a class after the first round of classes if you are feeling overwhelmed. I think I did roughtly two classes a semester. (Chem 1 and Bio1 and English first semester), then Chem 2 Bio 2 second semester), (genetics and physics 1 over the summer), and (orgo 2 and physics 2 for the fall semester of the next year) and then the MCAT for the spring semester.

I think that is how I approached it, but am not 100 sure.

Remember, no plan survives first contact, so make a logical plan and be prepared to adjust on the fly as needed. Also, keep in mind that you will have that lag year (unless you are the first non-trad to find a way around it).

BTW, and this is an aside, I refuse to pull all nighters. I didn't do it as an undergrad, and I don't do it as a medical student. I think they are really counter-productive (and I am a terrible crammer). Just something to take with you when you go to medical school. So much better to work ahead of time and get some sleep (if only four hours) the night before the exams (IMO)

Good luck to you.

 

[Old Grunt]

One more question for anyone who wishes to answer: I had to overcome stuttering twice in my life (and still struggle with it occasionally). I had to see a speech pathologist for 2 years starting at age 7. The stuttering came back at age 14 and I saw a speech pathologist for another year. I was also diagnosed with a learning disability at the same age (dysgraphia), and I've struggled with that for my entire life. Both the stuttering and dysgraphia are documented. Will the stuttering and dysgraphia experiences be positives or negatives in the application process? On the one hand, they might be seen as a positive in that I've had to work harder than most non-minority applicants in getting to the position I'm in today. I would never even try to compare my struggles to those of a minority applicant who has faced racism, discrimination, etc. On the other hand, could adcomms see my stuttering and dysgraphia and think that maybe I'm not cut out for medical school? How much will these experiences help or hurt me?

I honestly don't know.

I think the general consensus is to not disclose your medical conditions if they aren't blatantly obvious. You never know how the person on the other end is going to react to it. The fact that you have made it through law school means that, while they might still be problematic to you, you have found a way to overcome them. I don't think it would be useful to you to bring them up.

That's just my opinion and I am admittedly venturing on shaky ground here, so if someone thinks differently, please feel free to chime in.

 

[edmadison]

I hope I can be of some assistance to the OP. I was in similar shoes about ten years ago and am now a physician. I was considering doing all of my pre reqs while working, but ultimately decided not to do this because I was 31 at the time and didn't want to string out the process. I also contemplated doing my own post-bacc thing to save money. Ultimately, I decided to do a formal post-bacc program. Why? because that gave me the best shot of getting into medical school. Programs like Bryn Mawr and Goucher have unbelievable placement rates into medical school. Essentially, if you get into one of those programs you are going to get into medical school.

I would also like to comment on a couple of the things discussed so far in no particular order.

1) Take the bar exam. Get it out of the way. It will be harder to take later. This gives you a solid back-up plan if necessary. Also, do not expect it to be easy. Are you taking the NY bar? It is unbelievably difficult.

2) Will law school help your application? Maybe. I think your application would look much better if you had some post-law school experience as an attorney, however. It would make you look less flaky and also give you the opportunity to show that you can cut it as a professional.

3) Your proposed load for a single year is reasonable. That's exactly what I did a Bryn Mawr. Understand that in addition to your regular classes you'll probably have 10 hours of lab a week. It certainly doable, but success, especially in physics, requires pounding out a lot of practice problems.

4) I would not take the MCAT in April of that year. You do not need to do well on the MCAT, you need to CRUSH the MCAT. That would make your overall application look much better. Take the extra time to maximize your chance of success.

In closing, I'd encourage you to look at some of the structured post-bacc programs. They are expensive, but your basically buying a much increased chance of getting into medical school. Good luck,

Ed

 

[MBHockey]

I hope I can be of some assistance to the OP. I was in similar shoes about ten years ago and am now a physician. I was considering doing all of my pre reqs while working, but ultimately decided not to do this because I was 31 at the time and didn't want to string out the process. I also contemplated doing my own post-bacc thing to save money. Ultimately, I decided to do a formal post-bacc program. Why? because that gave me the best shot of getting into medical school. Programs like Bryn Mawr and Goucher have unbelievable placement rates into medical school. Essentially, if you get into one of those programs you are going to get into medical school.

I would also like to comment on a couple of the things discussed so far in no particular order.

1) Take the bar exam. Get it out of the way. It will be harder to take later. This gives you a solid back-up plan if necessary. Also, do not expect it to be easy. Are you taking the NY bar? It is unbelievably difficult.

2) Will law school help your application? Maybe. I think your application would look much better if you had some post-law school experience as an attorney, however. It would make you look less flaky and also give you the opportunity to show that you can cut it as a professional.

3) Your proposed load for a single year is reasonable. That's exactly what I did a Bryn Mawr. Understand that in addition to your regular classes you'll probably have 10 hours of lab a week. It certainly doable, but success, especially in physics, requires pounding out a lot of practice problems.

4) I would not take the MCAT in April of that year. You do not need to do well on the MCAT, you need to CRUSH the MCAT. That would make your overall application look much better. Take the extra time to maximize your chance of success.

In closing, I'd encourage you to look at some of the structured post-bacc programs. They are expensive, but your basically buying a much increased chance of getting into medical school. Good luck,

Ed

IMO, this is absolutely great advice.

 

[LawNonTrad]

Edmadison,

Thanks for the postbacc program advice, it is very good. My problem is that I wouldn't be able to get into Goucher's program. I don't have the health care volunteer experiences/background that they said they require for applicants. The pictures of their alums in the sidebars also indicate that they went to much better undergrads than I did. May I ask where you did your postbacc? If you have recommendations for where I should apply right now then I am definitely interested, because I should probably be applying RIGHT NOW, with rolling admissions and all. I just know that I couldn't get into Goucher's program. People with much better cum GPAs that post on studentdoctor have been dinged from it.

Regarding the idea that I should practice for a few years before applying to medical school: I can't do it. If I don't attempt this now then I'll never do it. I won't be able to start the process at age 30 or 32. I might be married by then and I can't ask a spouse to go along with this. I know that other people could and have, but I just wouldn't feel comfortable.

I think it's clear what I have to do. I have to ace-out my courses next year and kill the MCAT. If I do that and apply EARLY and to 20 or so lower ranked MD schools (Louisville, etc.) along with 10 DO's, then I might get in.