LCSW's doing neuropsych???

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I thought I had seen it all when the other day I saw a BVMGT and TMT completed and interpreted by and LCSW on a 7 year old!!! I can't really get my head around this, and I laughed when I read that the LCSW in question found no evidence of pathology?? What? :eek:
I know this is not in their scope and all that stuff we have discussed a million times, but are others seeing this in practice? Do LCSW's even have a course in neuroanatomy and neuropathology?

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Once an MSW approached me and handed me a protocol of a test that was given to a client. The MSW couldn't understand why the person had scored so low. I asked who had given the test (an achievement test) -- she replied that an MD had done so, as was regular practice since he was administering the same test to all of his clients. The client had scored so low because he was plotting RAW scores and never even realized it. I reported that he was testing when he had no business doing so, but no one seemed to be as outraged as they should have been. Ridiculous. I know it's not quite the same, but I also have problems with clinicians of any sort who administer behavior checklist and consider them to be diagnostic at face value. They often come to me not understanding what "clinical significance" is or being confused about how to interpret a computer printout of scores. If someone doesn't have any sort of foundation in stats, test construction, test interpretation, etc. they shouldn't be using even basic questionnaires --- they end up being misused.
 
psych101 said:
Ridiculous. I know it's not quite the same, but I also have problems with clinicians of any sort who administer behavior checklist and consider them to be diagnostic at face value. They often come to me not understanding what "clinical significance" is or being confused about how to interpret a computer printout of scores. If someone doesn't have any sort of foundation in stats, test construction, test interpretation, etc. they shouldn't be using even basic questionnaires --- they end up being misused.

Where is the law that physicians can never utilize a psychometric test? That's news to the hundreds of pediatricians specializing in developmental disorders that routinely give achievement tests such as the WRAT. Although I do see your point, I would think twice about reporting physicians who use these types of tests. Although I'm not even sure who'd you report to, to be honest.
 
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My point exactly, Paendrag. I agree wholeheartedly. I am afraid that professionals often overstep boundaries of competence, even if it’s done out of ignorance and without malicious intent. I have encountered numerous MDs and other professionals who send psych assessment referrals such as “I need an MMPI” or “Do an IQ and Achievement” with no further elaboration. I try to correct this by going back to the referral source and asking for them to explain what it is they’re struggling with and need to find out. I’d much rather do it that way than have someone with a lack of knowledge assuming they understand anything about which psych tests are appropriate in a given situation. I just think that we should work toward educating professionals, at some point in their training or at any opportunity that presents itself, not to overstep boundaries of competence. The MD I mentioned in my previous post had actually administered a WRAT – and had done so in a ridiculously inaccurate fashion, proving that he had not even a basic grasp of the fundamentals of assessment. I don’t try to prescribe meds, MDs shouldn’t test. Unless, of course, they hold the appropriate training background to do so - which is unlikely.
 
psych101 said:
I don't try to prescribe meds, MDs shouldn't test. Unless, of course, they hold the appropriate training background to do so - which is unlikely.

I really do understand your point. But, pediatricians have been performing their own WRATs for years, along with lots of other behavioral assesment tests - not all developed by psychologists. In all seriousness, how hard is it to administer the WRAT? The interpretation is no more difficult than it looks...it's just really not that complicated. Should all psychiatrists send their patients to a psychologist to fill out a BDI? That's just crazy.

It's unreasonable to expect every developmental pediatrician to send and refer simple assesments to psychologists.
 
Paendrag said:
That same line of reasoning can be used for med prescriptions for psychologists (i.e., it's unreasonable for a psychologist to have to refer every garden variety depressed patient to a physician to get an SSRI).

No, it can't.

Psychiatrists have been administering BDIs and other simple tests for decades. You actually condone sending any kind of patient ever that needs a paper-and-pencil assesment, ever, to a psychologist? Comon...:rolleyes:
 
Again, I agree with Paendrag. If the interpretation is "no more difficult than it looks" and it's "not that complicated" as you say, then why do people (typically those not well-trained in psychometrics) screw it up so much? It's more than just reading the instructions and figuring out how to add up scores. Someone administering even "simple" measures can potentially create difficulties. Take the example of administering the BDI...I have seen this equally misused. Although it may not be as psychometrically complicated as many other assessment measures, I think it would be ridiculous to slap somebody on meds just because they meet a certain cutoff on the BDI. There's more to the picture, in most cases. That's one thing I'm proud to say that hopefully most psychologists (at least the good ones) strive to do well --- comprehensive assessments based on a strong foundation and understanding of test development, interpretation, and how to offer evidence-based recommendations comprising all available information.
 
Paendrag said:
No, but there is definitely encroachment. The BDI is one thing, it's easy to interpret. Psychiatry is supposed to treat and assess depression. Achievement testing is something else. Cognitive assessment is something else.

If you're going to expand into these realms for which you have no training, why can't psychologists expand into your realms (i.e. prescribing drugs)?
They already are, and will foreseeable dire consequences. Hopefully you understand the differences in potential pitfalls between administering a BDI and starting someone on a psychiatric medication.

I agree that psychiatrists shouldn't administer complex psychological tests. In 99% of the cases, they don't. The same cannot be said for psychogists encroaching on psychiatry's "realms."

Btw, some programs have implemented a "psychology sees everyone" approach for certain types of patients (e.g., University of Miami Jackson).
That's nice. You're saying this because....

Also, your lumping of "paper and pencil" as the domain of psychological assessement shows a very limited understanding of what we do (I know your background).

No, I specifically mentioned pencil and paper tests as a moniker for simplistic rating scale-type instruments and other simple tests. And you're right, I know exactly what psychologists do. Frankly, that's why I chose to go into medicine. I'm not starting a fight - just saying it wasn't for me.
 
1. I anticipated your example of the misdiagnosed youngling that gets sent to a horrible special-ed prison camp and has no recourse of getting out, even if they clearly have above average comparitive grades. I suppose it can happen. I suppose I could have just used the laughing icon.

My professional advice is to not cheapen the physiological effects of psychiatric medication.

2. What can't be said is that psychology is not encroaching on psychiatry's realm, to use a double negative.

3. Miami sends every patient of certain types to psychologists. That's great. No qualm with that. Is this practical for every psychaitric outpatient throughout the US as well?

4. Quite frankly, from a face validity issue, it seems crazy to say that physicians cannot interpret anything than a BDI, while psychology can do everything and more that a neurologist, psychiatrist, neuropsychiatrist, can do - including prescribe medication. Let's not forget the inevitable push for ect rights for the underserved in the swamps of Louisiana.

Kidding aside though. I agree with you. Psychologists are the experts at what they do. That's why they exist. I can easily see even a psychiatrist with minimal psychologial test training misinterpreting or missing important data. To be honest, however, I bet the majority of my psychologist friends forgot the majority of their statistics class minutia. Many of them never quite understood it to begin with. You would make the claim that every assessing psychologist has in-depth knowledge of statistical norms, can deflect type II error, and the like? As you know, there's a lot more to understanding testing differences that spouting "there's cultural differences in these tests!" every time others are within earshot.
 
Anasazi23 said:
Where is the law that physicians can never utilize a psychometric test? That's news to the hundreds of pediatricians specializing in developmental disorders that routinely give achievement tests such as the WRAT. Although I do see your point, I would think twice about reporting physicians who use these types of tests. Although I'm not even sure who'd you report to, to be honest.

“Simple” test are never as simple as they seem. The WRAT is a perfect example.

Why are they administering the WRAT? Why decide to administer the WRAT instead of the WIAT or the Woodcock-Johnson? What do the results of the WRAT mean when considered in concert with the WISC? How do differences between the floor and ceiling effects on both of these tests lead to errors in interpretation with the developmentally disabled and gifted?

Unless the physician in question can answer all of these questions he or she should not be using the WRAT to assess DD. Personally, I wouldn’t use the WRAT to assess DD unless I just wanted a basic reading level to ensure the client could understand the content of other tests. It’s basically a screening instrument. This is the sort of minutiae that other professionals who use tests simple do not know. I have no real problem with psychiatrists using very basic instruments in isolation provided they don’t overstep their training. Pediatricians administering WRATs are overstepping their training. If you don’t believe me, look at the user qualifications section of the manual.
 
Paendrag said:
Btw, some programs have implemented a "psychology sees everyone" approach for certain types of patients (e.g., University of Miami Jackson).

Please elaborate.

I did my externship, internship, and fellowship all at UM/JMH (2000-2004) and psychiatry residents routinely administered/interpreted Trails A and B.
 
Paendrag said:
. . . my professional advice is to not cheapen the effect of psychiatric/psychological diagnosis.

I never attempted to do that. By the nature of your previous argument - you did.


You are setting a strawman. Who said anything about psychologists being able to do everything a neurologist, psychiatrist, or neuropsychiatrist can do? Poor argument.

Poor use of the invocation of the powerful and unarguable "that's a straw-man argument." Review all your colleagues postings on their abilites to competently prescribe psych meds, and how they are "taking over psychology" to paraphrase - particulary in the psychiatry forum. You may be surprised at what they said.

So, your argument is that psychologists don't know how to do their jobs? I'm sure we can all cite physician/psychologist incomeptence at what they are supposedly trained to do all day long. It isn't the minutia of statistics that is really the issue, it is the testing characteristics (e.g., what is the normative sample for the WRAT, what is the significance of a low test score? What is the ceiling of the test? What is the floor of the test? What is the scatter - confidence interval? What would be a better assessment tool if there are curious results - e.g., WJ-III?, etc. . . ).

In short and in some cases, yes to the first sentence. Poll your psychologist colleagues and ask them all the scatter-confidence interval of the WRAT. Let me know how you fare. I cited an example of a psychologist at my hospital that is uncomfortable administering anything other than the TAT, Draw-a-person, and (non Exner-scored) Rorschach. Isolated case? I doubt it. I also can provide many more examples of physician "incompetence" (more often mistakes - there's a difference). In that sense, the pendulum swings both ways. This also, is a straw-man and deflected argument.

You make the claim that general practitioners are experts in psychiatric diagnoses, are up to date on the latest anti-depressant treatments, know to ask the right questions to confirm that the depressed person they are seeing is not bipolar before prescribing an SSRI, etc. . . ?



Yes, which is why untrained MDs shouldn't be using them.
I never made that argument. But I did advocate that even FPs have infinitely more training in medicine and adverse reactions than psychologists in this sense.

Not that we would ever want to do this...but out of curiosity, what would you deem appropriate training for a psychiatrist to administer these psychological tests? Not being sarcastic....genuinelly interested in this hypothetical from your viewpoint.

Is it as hot, humid and disgusting over there as it is in NY? I hope not.
 
Easy. Get a Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology You walked into that one Anasazi!!

FYI, psychologists with MSCP and appropriate clinical supervision are vastly better trained to prescribe psychotropics than is any NP except for maybe a psych NP. There is no doubt about that. We learn Rxing, medicine and science in the medical model like PA.

:)
 
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Paendrag said:
I doubt I'd be surprised. I blame it on the professional schools :)

You?! Blame professional schools?! I'm shocked and outraged.


Nice, you can give examples of physician mistakes and psychologist incompetence. I can do the inverse of that. Hello fundamental attribution error. Remember there are specialties in psychology. Not everyone is qualified to do everything. That, probably old psychologist, has done something you haven't, namely admit that he can't do something.
I admit I can't do lots of stuff. Like.....hmm....nope. I was wrong. I can do absolutely everything ever. (I know you have a sense of humor).


Easy. Get a Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology :)
psisci said:
Easy. Get a Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology You walked into that one Anasazi!!
Comon guys!!! I thought you were imminently more mature and eloquent than that!
:p

The following is an inappropriate roast:
How about this. Psychiatrists will go to poolside training courses taught by psychiatrists at the local Ramada's on alternating Saturdays that have quarter moons in them for about 2 years. We'll be supervised by psychiatrists (but psychologists will be available for phone consultation...so don't worry), and take the POOP exam (Psychiatrists Observational & Outcome for Psychometrics) which will allow us to give any test we choose to infants, children, teens, adults, geriatric, and dead people. This, of course, will benefit the underserved on the outlying ridges of the Death Valley migrant camps, where we will flock to work since it's our obligated duty. Never mind the fame and fortune we had as psychiatrists in the comfortable suburbs and hip metro cities....patients aren't getting their woodcocks OR their Johnsons, damnit!


In Chicago? Yes, it's like Hades is running around here with a blow torch.
This sucks. I might have to break down and turn on the A/C.
 
I think the issue is not whether psychiatrists could administer and interpret psychological tests, but rather why they'd want to do it. A psychiatrist makes ~$150-200 for a 15-minute med check, which equals a pretty penny per hour (I wasn't a math major). Why the hell would they want to administer boring psychological tests (this is why psychometrists/psychological technicians exist) when they can farm out psychotropics all day and refer their patients for psychological evaluations?

Anasazi, good to see you around SDN! How's PGY-2?
 
Good to hear from you!! As far as why someone would want testing, all I have to say is "objectivity"!! I know all psychiatrists are so well trained that they can rely on their "gut" feeling, the daily horoscope, and anecdotal experience, but some in this day and age defending your diagnosis can be very valuable!

:)
 
psisci said:
Good to hear from you!! As far as why someone would want testing, all I have to say is "objectivity"!! I know all psychiatrists are so well trained that they can rely on their "gut" feeling, the daily horoscope, and anecdotal experience, but some in this day and age defending your diagnosis can be very valuable!

:)

Touche, my friend!

Alas, the Yankee game is on, and I'm too distracted to reply with a witty rebuttal.
 
It may be easier to think of psychiatry (bread & butter practice) as treating maladaptive sets of behavior, rather than throwing pills at DSM-IVs.

While correct diagnosis is important, the subtelties of psychopharmacology in practice is much more complex. I wish it were as simple as, "bipolar = lithium, depressed = ssri." Our psychiatric patients are often much, much more complex.

As for the testing. It simply would be unreasonable to spend 5 hours testing every patient. How would we ever make money that way? ;)
 
PublicHealth said:
I think the issue is not whether psychiatrists could administer and interpret psychological tests, but rather why they'd want to do it. A psychiatrist makes ~$150-200 for a 15-minute med check, which equals a pretty penny per hour (I wasn't a math major). Why the hell would they want to administer boring psychological tests (this is why psychometrists/psychological technicians exist) when they can farm out psychotropics all day and refer their patients for psychological evaluations?

Anasazi, good to see you around SDN! How's PGY-2?


I agree completely.

PGY II is great. I'm on C/L now and cover the ER on some days. The ER has been nuts...I think it has something to do with the heat. Anyway, I'm having a great time, seeing the complex interface of psychiatry and medicine, and learning a lot. You'll enjoy it when you get here. Hop over to the psychiatry forum and we'll talk about psych residency if you're interested. I want to hear how NYCOM's going also.
 
psisci said:
I know all psychiatrists are so well trained that they can rely on their "gut" feeling, the daily horoscope, and anecdotal experience, but some in this day and age defending your diagnosis can be very valuable!

:)

But what if we demonstrated competence on the "POOP" exam? Maybe then it would be less concerning? :oops:
 
Yep... for me it would...even if you created your own POOP exam, because it would be up to you to defend that if ever need be. Much like RxP...hmm.

:)
 
psisci said:
Yep... for me it would...even if you created your own POOP exam, because it would be up to you to defend that if ever need be. Much like RxP...hmm.

:)

I wouldn't feel very comfortable defending my poop in court.
 
Originally postedd by Anasazi23
...and take the POOP exam (Psychiatrists Observational & Outcome for Psychometrics) which will allow us to give any test we choose to infants, children, teens, adults, geriatric, and dead people.



I will concede that if you passed the POOP exam, you should be able to test DEAD people as much as you want. However, You may run into some floor effects due the lack of responses. Also, good luck gettin 'em to pay! :D
 
You really should report that LCSW to your state psychological association. She is starting a bad precedent, and they will take action against her.
 
psisci said:
I thought I had seen it all when the other day I saw a BVMGT and TMT completed and interpreted by and LCSW on a 7 year old!!! I can't really get my head around this, and I laughed when I read that the LCSW in question found no evidence of pathology?? What? :eek:
I know this is not in their scope and all that stuff we have discussed a million times, but are others seeing this in practice? Do LCSW's even have a course in neuroanatomy and neuropathology?

Um, I seriously doubt they do and I bet you donuts to dollars that it's beyond their scope of practice in all states. MSWs are not qualified to even diagnose serious pathologies. They are certainly not qualified as neuropsychologists. This is scary. Is it possible the MSW was working under a PhD?
 
Paendrag said:
It comes down, you shouldn't do what you are not trained for. Psychologists shouldn't prescribe medications. Chiropractors shouldn't exist. M.D.s shouldn't give psychological tests. This is a problem in some areas now. M.D.s want the money from doing cognitive testing, so they give "expanded mental status exams" and then refer to a neuropsychologist (which limits what the neuropsychologist can be paid). Perform the job in which you are competent. Seems simple enough. Physicians are not trained to understand the psychometric properties of tests. They know little about normative samples, test design, and interpretation.

As a psychiatrist, I can honestly say that I am completely ignorant about administering any psychometric assessment to any patient. While in residency, we learn what the tests measure (or purport to measure) and what the results mean, but we don't learn to administer or score them. I am not competent to administer and score a WISC, WAIS, WPPSI, Binet, or even the Neuro-psych batteries. No way, no how. I know a few older psychiatrists, however, who administer and score IQ tests and they tell me it makes them feel more "academic" or something, whatever that means. I guess it's a nice divergence from doing 15 minute med-review evals and scribbling some psychotropic euphoria to another poor soul.

From a legal standpoint, I think in most states, psychiatrists, being the "top" mental health professional, are permitted to administer psychometric testing. I know Limited License Psychologists (LLPs) and Licensed Professional Counselors (LPCs) in Michigan include such testing within their scope of practice, so I'm going to assume an MD or DO can do it as well. I'm not sure about other states, but the practice of medicine, including psychiatry, is usually over-inclusive, while the practice of other professions, is usually exclusive and very limited.

Personally, I would never give an IQ or personality test; it's outside my scope of training and competence. I reserve that for the true professionals, the psychologists (PhD or PsyD, not master's level), whose training in this area is quite comprehensive. It's funny how physicians are permitted, by law, to do many things they are not qualified to do, whereas other practitioners are severely limited through statutory constraints. Example, any licensed physician is legally authorized to render any medical treatment to any patient. So, you get OB-GYNs and Internists treating endogenous depression or GAD w/ agoraphobia when they have no training to do so. Most of the SSRIs and Benzodiazepines are Rx'd by IM docs, FPs, and OB-GYNs.

Interestingly, however, even the medical boards recognize competence and scope of practice issues and would censure any physician who treats outside his/her area of expertise. In the case of an MD or DO administering psychometric tests, since such tests are not invasive and such administration would not or could not harm the patient, it's doubtful the Board of Medical Examiners would take any action.
 
You're right, but there is potential harm, unfortunately. Many decisions are made based on cognitive testing. For example, I've had patients come in already taking aricept for memory deficiencies based on inaccurate/inadequate testing that have no memory problems.


I agree. There are ramifications of psych testing, so those doing the testing need to be competent. When I worked at a psychiatric hospital I saw an attending change 3 meds on the day of discharge because of the testing results.
 
PsychEval said:
I agree. There are ramifications of psych testing, so those doing the testing need to be competent. When I worked at a psychiatric hospital I saw an attending change 3 meds on the day of discharge because of the testing results.

This is very hard to believe. No psychiatrist changes meds the day of discharge - let alone 3, unless the medication is benign and was for a time limited course to begin with. What three medications were stopped due to the results of cognitive testing?
 
ProZackMI said:
From a legal standpoint, I think in most states, psychiatrists, being the "top" mental health professional, are permitted to administer psychometric testing. I know Limited License Psychologists (LLPs) and Licensed Professional Counselors (LPCs) in Michigan include such testing within their scope of practice, so I'm going to assume an MD or DO can do it as well. I'm not sure about other states, but the practice of medicine, including psychiatry, is usually over-inclusive, while the practice of other professions, is usually exclusive and very limited.

From a legal standpoint my mom can give psychological tests. There are no particular laws governing who can and can not administer any psych test. The closest thing to a legal requirement was a finding in some state court that those who practice psychology can be legally held to the same standards as a psychologist regardless of their training or professional qualifications. Psychiatrists are not permitted to administer psych test because they are the “top” (whatever that means) mental health provider; they are allowed to do so because state medical licensing boards have not adopted the same standards as their psychological counterparts regarding qualifications for testing.
 
Psychiatrists, LCSWs, and anyone else in the mental health field SHOULD use objective psychological assessment as part of their practice (particularly in C-L). Many psychological instruments (i.e. BDI, SCID, SCL-90-R) are designed to be easy to administer and interpret. Problems arise when other professionals attempt to conduct the same sort of in-depth, complicated assessments that psychologists administer.
 
This is very hard to believe. No psychiatrist changes meds the day of discharge - let alone 3, unless the medication is benign and was for a time limited course to begin with. What three medications were stopped due to the results of cognitive testing?


True story. The attending was a MD, Ph.D. and brilliant. This was several years ago and I do not remember the medications. This attending saw the patient after discharge at a day hospital. Patient’s routinely get stepped down from acute inpatient, to partial, to intensive outpatient, to outpatient. Not to digress, but it is funny the way you assume, “No psychiatrist would ….” I’m sure you would say, “No psychiatrist would conduct routine vaginal exams.” However, I also know of this situation and the psychiatrist obviously got into trouble with the board.

Question: Is it ethical for psychiatrists to perform vaginal exams?
Answer: Psychiatrists may provide nonpsychiatric medical procedures if they are competent to do so and if the procedures do not preclude effective psychiatric treatment by distorting the transference. Pelvic exams carry a high risk of distorting the transference and would be better performed by another clinician. Reference: Kaplan and Sadock’s Synopsis of Psychiatry.

Well anyway, back to social workers conducting neuropsychological evaluations.
 
Paendrag said:
I appreciate your post and this is not meant as an attack, but MDs are not generally competent to interpret the tests either. Giving the tests is the easy part. We train bachelors level people to do that (psychometrists). I've been involved in resident training for behavioral neuro classes and, while important information, the content is surfacey and in no way qualifies you to interpret raw neuro-psych test results. Your colleagues that are alleviating their boredom by conducting neuropsych tests wouldn't be too happy if I started doing my own blood lab work, or my own EEGs and ECGS (which I actually do know how to do - I do know that neuropsychologists do QEEGs but that's different).






You're right, but there is potential harm, unfortunately. Many decisions are made based on cognitive testing. For example, I've had patients come in already taking aricept for memory deficiencies based on inaccurate/inadequate testing that have no memory problems.

I agree with your points entirely. To be honest, the psychiatrists that like administering psychometric tests are the ones who are bored with pharmacological tx, and regret not going the PhD/PsyD route rather than the MD route. I only recently completed my psych residency, and already, I have to say, I realize that even though psychiatrists are considered the top of the mental health professional hierarchy, I have come to rely on the psychologists for their knowledge and expertise more than fellow psychiatrists.

One problem that I'm having in my profession is that many of the older and more experienced psychiatrists are foreign educated and don't have the necessary language skills to be effective with multicultural patients. Another problem is the over-reliance on pharmacology to treat mental illness. As you know, not everything can be solved with a pill; however, most of my fellow psychiatrists believe that psychopharm is the solution for everything, and it's not.

That's why I rely and depend so heavily on the psychologists who seem to have their fingers on the pulse of everything. If I had to do it over, I would have gotten my PhD in clinical psychology. That is one of the reasons why I went to law school after med school. Interestingly, in my law school class, there were a few other physicians and several PhDs. Among the PhDs, two were psychologists/educational psychologists. They constantly outperfomed the MDs in class, including myself!

But, you're right...MDs are not competent to administer, interpret, or score psychometric assessments. With training, some of us can do a good job, but it's not our role.
 
psychgeek said:
From a legal standpoint my mom can give psychological tests. There are no particular laws governing who can and can not administer any psych test. The closest thing to a legal requirement was a finding in some state court that those who practice psychology can be legally held to the same standards as a psychologist regardless of their training or professional qualifications. Psychiatrists are not permitted to administer psych test because they are the “top” (whatever that means) mental health provider; they are allowed to do so because state medical licensing boards have not adopted the same standards as their psychological counterparts regarding qualifications for testing.

In Michigan, only a fully-licensed psychologist, with a PhD/EdD/PsyD, can legally interpret/score and diagnose based on psychometric testing; however, a properly qualified individual (psychometrist as a previous poster indicated) can administer such tests under the "supervision" of a fully licensed psychologist. In the CMH facility where I rotate, testing is often administered by limited license psychologists with MA or MS degrees, or Licensed Professional Counselors with MEd/MA degrees. A doctoral level psychologist will interpret the tests, however, and render a dx based on tht interpretation.

Like I said before, a psychiatrist can legally administer and interpret the test because psychiatrists are considered the "top" mental health professional. I do not mean to sound arrogant, but psychiatrists are usually considered the top of the mental health food chain since we are physicians. It's a quirky American type of thought process that physicians equate with God. You don't find this attitude in Europe.
 
Paendrag said:
God, but there's alot of money to be had with an M.D., J.D.!

Same with a PhD (psy) and JD. I'm considering leaving medicine and moving over to law (once I take and pass the bar exam). I'm getting burnt out with psychiatry. It's not rewarding. I'd love to actually learn how to do psychotherapy.
 
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