Leadership in student groups - worthwhile?

[HybridEarth]

Dear colleagues,

I am near the end of M1, and many of the M2s are handing over leadership for student groups. I am a "member" of several, but I currently don't hold any leadership positions. I'm happy with dedicating my time to academics and research, but I cannot help but feel way behind others when it comes to campus involvement. I feel like everyone around me is involved in so many interest groups, and at the same time I know that doing all that would drive me crazy. My time is being entirely dedicated to academics and research, primarily because I really do love research. I also know step1 is most critical factor, so building a foundation is my #1 priority.

My question is: will holding a leadership position give a student a noticeable edge in residency apps? I'm torn between sucking it up and running a group for a few hours/month during M2 for a "different" line on my CV simply so I can check a box. The specialty match documents aren't too helpful because they don't tell me whether or not being in a leadership position of some sort is almost an unwritten expectation of matching into "top 20" programs. Can someone please share some wisdom? Advising at school wasn't too helpful on this topic, and time is ticking away. Thanks as always.

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[Crayola227]

Dear colleagues,

I am near the end of M1, and many of the M2s are handing over leadership for student groups. I am a "member" of several, but I currently don't hold any leadership positions. I'm happy with dedicating my time to academics and research, but I cannot help but feel way behind others when it comes to campus involvement. I feel like everyone around me is involved in so many interest groups, and at the same time I know that doing all that would drive me crazy. My time is being entirely dedicated to academics and research, primarily because I really do love research. I also know step1 is most critical factor, so building a foundation is my #1 priority.

My question is: will holding a leadership position give a student a noticeable edge in residency apps? I'm torn between sucking it up and running a group for a few hours/month during M2 for a "different" line on my CV simply so I can check a box. The specialty match documents aren't too helpful because they don't tell me whether or not being in a leadership position of some sort is almost an unwritten expectation of matching into "top 20" programs. Can someone please share some wisdom? Advising at school wasn't too helpful on this topic, and time is ticking away. Thanks as always.

Depends on the app you're trying to build and if these positions give you an excuse to work with the dept you're trying to network, and how much effort they are.

Going for ENT? Leading that, working with the ENT docs to do some screenings at underserved little kid schools could help you.

I wrote about this somewhere, search my post history. I would encourage you to think if there's one that very low investment on your part that you would like to have to BS about in an interview.

If you're a research powerhouse, you likely won't need it, but I like to cover bases, tick boxes, create interview fodder.

 

[Crayola227]

https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/rural-medicine-program.1215762/#post-18022320

Differnt post:
"Having friends can help you get involved in extracurricular groups or leadership positions we all do as part of our CV filler for getting accepted for VSAS away rotations and ERAS. Also, getting to know other students also going into your same field can help you get a scoop on what different programs/interviews are like as you go on the trail.
Having friends can help as there are certain awards/honors in med school that are voted on and can also help your CV.
You never know where people end up after med school or residency. Sometimes people can be poised in interesting ways to make an impact in your career like with hiring, etc later on down the road.
Also, when your class graduates and everyone gets scattered to the winds, sometimes it's nice to know other residents outside your program to talk to.
Developing a reputation can help. There were upperclassmen that were residents at the program I matched to. We knew some of the same people. Some ended up being my senior, and they eval you. Did that have an impact? I dunno. Also, some of my classmates matched to my same program.
If you end up having any issues in med school, like a patient or classmate or resident or attending is out to get you and you get hauled into the Dean's office for no good reason (so don't act like this can't happen to you) having friends that can vouch for your character can help."

Total horse**** that those activities will hurt your app.

I just don't see how.

On the other hand, depending what field you go into, research will not be necessary and for others your app goes in the trash without research.

Research never hurts always helps.

The special societies/honors always a big plus, but those are determined by your grades mostly or humanitarian stuff you do for which you then get nominated. So telling you to get the best grades you can is not useful advice towards your question, and doing ECs still stands.

You likely have no idea what you want to do yet, so keep doing what you're doing, try to get early clinical experience to know if you want to be a cutter vs not (I knew my first week of MS1 the first time I stepped foot in OR oh hell no) because that can focus what research you get involved with, because getting the best grades and research is going to keep the most doors open.

I figured out early on no surgery for me, and I didn't have the uber competitiveness to want derm or competitive specialties.

Take the SDN and AAMC specialties tests and whatever career advising you can to at least get a sense of cutter vs generalist vs specialist. Certain fields it will make sense to do more bench vs clinical research, surgical vs epidemiology and the like.

I will agree that you are expected to have diverse involvement in all sorts of things, but like being pre-med, pubs, longitudinal involvement, depth of involvement, and general impressiveness of accomplishment matters.

So do what you do but try to find research or a club or other cause to pour your heart into. Aim for leadership positions if you can.

I hate research although I had a bunch pre-med. In med school (keep in mind I was not going for anything lofty) I just did what I actually cared about and without even meaning to it wasnt until residency interviews when the interviewers summed up "wow you are really committed to the underserved," that I realized a pattern had emerged, one which totally supported my choice of field, although it could have worked fine for other fields too. (The poor, disadvantaged, mentally ill, susbtance abuse, minorities, all make you a shoe in for any general fields, or like FM, EM, psych, IM, which I had interest in. Would have helped me with PM&R or neuro or rheum or any specialty that sees people with a lot of chronic conditions that make their lives suck). Would that have helped me get into path or rads? No, not really.

Someone I knew was really into geriatrics from day one, and their interests led to an app that reflected that.

Someone else was obsessed with audiology and that led to ENT.

Another it was women and children and they ended up in ob/gyn.

Another did a path year and ended up in peds.

Others showed up for path stuff, of the 10 like 3 made it their thing.

Some people knew day 1 it was derm ortho or surg, and half of them changed by the time of grad.

Some people did a 180 that surprised me, some went for what they thought day 1.

But everyone that put themselves out there according to their interests and tried new things found their way.

It's your first year and you're not professing a big passion here. Get involved in as much as you can if you don't have a field and just whittle it down from there.

You could use this first year to do as much ECs, clinic experiences, elective courses, as possible before picking a research path way for the summer.

You could also see if there's a more short term research project for this year or the summer that could turn into more.

You're not married to whatever research project you start as long as there is an understanding of time frame and responsibilities between you and the project and you follow through on what you do. Better to do a 3 month chart review project for surg and decide it's not for you and move on to something new than sign up for something that's very focussed and wants a 1 yr commitment and bail early.

Hope this helps you chew on what to do next.

 

[Mr Medschool Money]

"Program Directors unanimously voted Leadership in Extracurricular Groups 33rd out of 32 factors important for ranking."

 

[Crayola227]

there are other reasons to do it if it helps you network in your department

 

[CCmetal94]

Unfortunately, I have no answer to your question. Just dropped in to say ERRA freaking rules man/woman.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I imagine leadership in a group that focuses or shows interest in a field may be a good way of backing up why you want to go into that field. Ex. I imagine that someone who has been in the Ob/Gyn club and an officer at their school for 4 years probably has an easier time explaining that they didn't decide to do OB last minute.

 

[68PGunner]

Leadership doesn't matter crap if you don't have a stud Step 1 score in the first place. I personally think that the impression that you make in your audition will trump over most of the little CV checkboxes.

 

[Redpancreas]

Dear colleagues,

I am near the end of M1, and many of the M2s are handing over leadership for student groups. I am a "member" of several, but I currently don't hold any leadership positions. I'm happy with dedicating my time to academics and research, but I cannot help but feel way behind others when it comes to campus involvement. I feel like everyone around me is involved in so many interest groups, and at the same time I know that doing all that would drive me crazy. My time is being entirely dedicated to academics and research, primarily because I really do love research. I also know step1 is most critical factor, so building a foundation is my #1 priority.

My question is: will holding a leadership position give a student a noticeable edge in residency apps? I'm torn between sucking it up and running a group for a few hours/month during M2 for a "different" line on my CV simply so I can check a box. The specialty match documents aren't too helpful because they don't tell me whether or not being in a leadership position of some sort is almost an unwritten expectation of matching into "top 20" programs. Can someone please share some wisdom? Advising at school wasn't too helpful on this topic, and time is ticking away. Thanks as always.

Do one and don't take it seriously.


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[cbrons]

My question is: will holding a leadership position give a student a noticeable edge in residency apps?

Look at the Program Director's survey released by the NRMP. The answer to your question is no.

Crayola is obfuscating the issue. These activities (aside from being faux leadership positions - meaning you aren't actually making any real decisions or changes in national orgs) are something you should do only if they are personally meaningful to you.

The program director's survey lists "personal statement" higher in importance than extracurricular activities (in fact, much higher). When you consider that many PDs don't even read personal statements, that should give you some idea of how important non-research activities like "leadership" and volunteering are... at least as far as residency applications are concerned.

Do not make the mistake of thinking that applying for residency is anything like applying for medical school. Residency is a job, and the only thing that matters are indicators of how well you'll perform that job and how well you'll fit in with the culture of the program. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that being a 5-club meetings per week Social Justice Warrior is a soft red flag for many programs who just don't want to deal with that type of person.

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[acapnial]

Dear colleagues,

I am near the end of M1, and many of the M2s are handing over leadership for student groups. I am a "member" of several, but I currently don't hold any leadership positions. I'm happy with dedicating my time to academics and research, but I cannot help but feel way behind others when it comes to campus involvement. I feel like everyone around me is involved in so many interest groups, and at the same time I know that doing all that would drive me crazy. My time is being entirely dedicated to academics and research, primarily because I really do love research. I also know step1 is most critical factor, so building a foundation is my #1 priority.

My question is: will holding a leadership position give a student a noticeable edge in residency apps? I'm torn between sucking it up and running a group for a few hours/month during M2 for a "different" line on my CV simply so I can check a box. The specialty match documents aren't too helpful because they don't tell me whether or not being in a leadership position of some sort is almost an unwritten expectation of matching into "top 20" programs. Can someone please share some wisdom? Advising at school wasn't too helpful on this topic, and time is ticking away. Thanks as always.

It's not important for ranking or deciding to interview you, but if you do something worth talking about it can make good interview conversation. About 1/3 of my interviewers asked me to describe a leadership position I've held during medical school, and they generally liked talking about the one leadershipish thing I did.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Leadership doesn't matter crap if you don't have a stud Step 1 score in the first place. I personally think that the impression that you make in your audition will trump over most of the little CV checkboxes.

Solution: Have all 3 then.

 

[Mr Roboto]

I imagine leadership in a group that focuses or shows interest in a field may be a good way of backing up why you want to go into that field. Ex. I imagine that someone who has been in the Ob/Gyn club and an officer at their school for 4 years probably has an easier time explaining that they didn't decide to do OB last minute.

Ex. I imagine that someone who has been in the Ob/Gyn club and an officer at their school for 4 years probably has a hard time explaining that they didn't decide to do another field last minute if they rotate and hate Ob/Gyn.

 

[libertyyne]

Ex. I imagine that someone who has been in the Ob/Gyn club and an officer at their school for 4 years probably has a hard time explaining that they didn't decide to do another field last minute if they rotate and hate Ob/Gyn.

Do you just write it off as a sunk cost and not put it on your app?

 

[zero0]

Ex. I imagine that someone who has been in the Ob/Gyn club and an officer at their school for 4 years probably has a hard time explaining that they didn't decide to do another field last minute if they rotate and hate Ob/Gyn.

Just don't list it then. Why would you ever put anything on your app that would question your commitment to your chosen specialty?

Fwiw I think all officer positions are almost entirely useless, and I'm sure PDs are aware of this fact. The only possible exception being if the position is in the specialty you're applying for. Some specialties seem to care more than others.

 

[Mr Roboto]

Do you just write it off as a sunk cost and not put it on your app?

Just don't list it then. Why would you ever put anything on your app that would question your commitment to your chosen specialty?

Fwiw I think all officer positions are almost entirely useless, and I'm sure PDs are aware of this fact. The only possible exception being if the position is in the specialty you're applying for. Some specialties seem to care more than others.

I know very little about the MSPE, but at our school it lists all leadership positions held by the student. So if you left it off your app it would still show up there.

 

[68PGunner]

Solution: Have all 3 then.

Don't need to. Already have a leadership filled CV, as in leadership roles in real jobs, before medical school. I have a family now. I'm not going to waste my quality time with my family for some bs stuff.

 

[libertyyne]

Don't need to. Already have a leadership filled CV, as in leadership roles in real jobs, before medical school. I have a family now. I'm not going to waste my quality time with my family for some bs stuff.

Does life even exisit pre-matriculation for PDs?

 

[cbrons]

It's not important for ranking or deciding to interview you, but if you do something worth talking about it can make good interview conversation. About 1/3 of my interviewers asked me to describe a leadership position I've held during medical school, and they generally liked talking about the one leadershipish thing I did.

If you do anything interesting, even if you just plah videogames, will make an interview conversation. When they dont know what to talk about, they glance at your hobbies or w/e. Dont make the mistake of thinking any of your interviewers care at all about your experience at treasurer of the student government.

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[acapnial]

If you do anything interesting, even if you just plah videogames, will make an interview conversation. When they dont know what to talk about, they glance at your hobbies or w/e. Dont make the mistake of thinking any of your interviewers care at all about your experience at treasurer of the student government.

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At half the interviews where I talked about it, the question was specifically "Tell me about an experience you had when you were a leader", instead of asking about the activity specifically. My activity was more interesting and less common than a student government position, but it still had to be something that I could spin as leadership.

 

[DocWinter]

I don't get argument against leadership positions. Of course, don't overlook steps to do it, but they can be easily handled on a med student's schedule and they can only help you. If only for demonstrated interest or conversation material it is worth it.

 

[y123]

I feel student groups are doing public service. I will be really sad if nobody is doing it because it means no free lunch/dinner for me.

 

[cbrons]

At half the interviews where I talked about it, the question was specifically "Tell me about an experience you had when you were a leader", instead of asking about the activity specifically. My activity was more interesting and less common than a student government position, but it still had to be something that I could spin as leadership.

Thats a super specific behavioral-interview style-type question. Even so, that could be answered any number of ways without the need for a waste-of-time position in AMA student group.

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[acapnial]

Thats a super specific behavioral-interview style-type question. Even so, that could be answered any number of ways without the need for a waste-of-time position in AMA student group.

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Agreed. I never did any of those groups anyway.

 

[xffan624]

Does life even exisit pre-matriculation for PDs?

If you do something significant pre-matriculation (military, significant research, or other cool job), it does.

 

[caffeinemia]

For general surgery and plastic surgery programs ... I can say those med school clubs are essentially meaningless, unless it was about music or sports and you have a talent in those. People are looking for smart and relatable candidates. Guess what, leading the butt sores interest group is not relatable. Playing the guitar is.

 

[*brobro*]

MS4 here. Don't bother with any of that EC crap unless all your other priorities are in order. Be a good student above anything else. If your grades are good and you're on track for boards, then consider trying to get involved in some level of research. The significance of research in terms of quantity and quality are dependent on your specialty of choice, but research will always help. Going for Rad Onc? Better pile on the research. Going for IM? Good grades and a touch of research goes a long way. If you are doing well in school, involved in some level of research, and still functioning well personally...the next thing you should consider is an interesting hobby. Pick up a new sport or join/start a team for some sport you've played all your life, learn spanish, learn to play an instrument, rock climb, etc. This will be far more interesting to interviewers and probably more personally enriching. Now, if you've done all these things and you're single or spending adequate time with your family/kids/dog/cat/parents etc....ok, pick up an EC. The only caveat is if a particular EC activity sounds really interesting to you. If that's the case then you could consider giving it higher priority.

Don't fall into the illusion that only the people going for the most competitive specialties should prioritize like this. Fields like IM, while not generally as competitive overall, are as just as competitive as anything else at the top end. Also, the ability to be choosey geographically is a bonus enjoyed by competitive applicants.

1. Grades/boards
2. Research
3. Things that make you interesting
4. ECs like clubs, leadership, free clinics etc.

 

[statia]

Taking a little different approach here:

I think EC stuff helps tremendously. Not so much for the value of "leadership" and real world experiences, but it shows you are interested and take initiative in programs at a given institution.

PD's may rank EC activities extremely low while deciding who to give interviews to, but DURING the interviews, it's all they talked about. For someone (like myself) who did not have very many research opportunities, EC activities ( president of school, organizer of mentorship program, TA multiple subjects, etc) gave me something to talk about other than "Well I got a 241 on step one and have really great grades. I study. I work hard".

If they aren't interfering with your grades or board scores... do them. As much as we think we know everything, every leadership role you partake in gives you some experience you can take to residency and beyond.

 

[Affiche]

Taking a little different approach here:

I think EC stuff helps tremendously. Not so much for the value of "leadership" and real world experiences, but it shows you are interested and take initiative in programs at a given institution.

PD's may rank EC activities extremely low while deciding who to give interviews to, but DURING the interviews, it's all they talked about. For someone (like myself) who did not have very many research opportunities, EC activities ( president of school, organizer of mentorship program, TA multiple subjects, etc) gave me something to talk about other than "Well I got a 241 on step one and have really great grades. I study. I work hard".

If they aren't interfering with your grades or board scores... do them. As much as we think we know everything, every leadership role you partake in gives you some experience you can take to residency and beyond.

The day that I have nothing else to talk about besides that one treasurer position I had 2 1/2 years ago is a very sad day indeed.

 

[cbrons]

PD's may rank EC activities extremely low while deciding who to give interviews to, but DURING the interviews, it's all they talked about.

I'm going to go ahead and say that if your interviewers are asking about your ECs, its likely that you have a very uninteresting application (aside from meeting their board score cut-offs) and are just coming up with things to talk about. At not a single one of my interviews did I discuss any of the ECs I participated in (OK I got asked about working at the free clinic one time by a guy who basically read straight off my ERAS application and asked me about everything). Instead, we talked about my hobbies (writing, video games, my kids, etc.) Believe me, they find your hobbies/personal interests more compelling than student government or XYZ medical student group.

There was a funny post about this topic on SDN a few years ago, which was a simulation of what goes on inside program rank-order list meetings:

Applicant 1:
Faculty person: Hey you remember that guy who was student government president, treasurer for all those interest groups, and ran the school's free health clinic?
Program director: Who?

Applicant 2:
Faculty person: Hey remember that one dude that won a bunch of money playing video games?
Program director: Oh yeah! I couldn't believe people can make money doing that.

or

Faculty person: Hey remember that one girl from California who runs a bunch of marathons and surfs all the time?
Program director: Oh yeah, she ran in the Putz 5K last year. I think she said her grandma lives two miles away from here...

etc. etc.

There is literally nothing interesting or worth talking about when it comes to specialty interest groups, student government, or any of those various social-justice warrior clubs.


Of course, this statement doesn't apply to research. They are interested in your research, particularly in competitive specialties and/or at academic medical centers. But I don't consider research an "extracurricular activity." And neither does the Program Director's Survey by the way.

 

[Crayola227]

I'm going to go ahead and say that if your interviewers are asking about your ECs, its likely that you have a very uninteresting application (aside from meeting their board score cut-offs) and are just coming up with things to talk about. At not a single one of my interviews did I discuss any of the ECs I participated in (OK I got asked about working at the free clinic one time by a guy who basically read straight off my ERAS application and asked me about everything). Instead, we talked about my hobbies (writing, video games, my kids, etc.) Believe me, they find your hobbies/personal interests more compelling than student government or XYZ medical student group.

There was a funny post about this topic on SDN a few years ago, which was a simulation of what goes on inside program rank-order list meetings:

Applicant 1:
Faculty person: Hey you remember that guy who was student government president, treasurer for all those interest groups, and ran the school's free health clinic?
Program director: Who?

Applicant 2:
Faculty person: Hey remember that one dude that won a bunch of money playing video games?
Program director: Oh yeah! I couldn't believe people can make money doing that.

or

Faculty person: Hey remember that one girl from California who runs a bunch of marathons and surfs all the time?
Program director: Oh yeah, she ran in the Putz 5K last year. I think she said her grandma lives two miles away from here...

etc. etc.

There is literally nothing interesting or worth talking about when it comes to specialty interest groups, student government, or any of those various social-justice warrior clubs.


Of course, this statement doesn't apply to research. They are interested in your research, particularly in competitive specialties and/or at academic medical centers. But I don't consider research an "extracurricular activity." And neither does the Program Director's Survey by the way.

Eh, not exactly.

To be fair, my hobbies could be considered "boring" (which actually was a good thing on the trail, as I had to apply very broadly [family geographic reasons]) and so I didn't have to work hard to convince Oklahoma that coming from a cool place to live I would be OK with bumf*uck OK. Or that I'd have issues being stuck indoors all winter in rural Michigan's snow.

My ECs were discussed because they show a commitment to the underserved and some populations that are important in my field and certain locations I interviewed at.

I was a decent applicant but I know for a fact the only reason I interviewed at UCLA was because of how much my app showed commitment to the underserved and "difficult" populations.

This stuff served as fodder in discussing the special training opportunities at places for someone like me, or how I could lead whatever special things to that end that they had (underserved clinics, global mission trips, etc), special training tracks they had, mentorship, etc.

That's why I keep chiming in to say, it really depends who you are and what you do for how much leadership in student groups matter and how interesting it is to programs and your interviews to discuss.

(EDIT to add: it probably helps that while my hobbies are "boring," they are pretty unique, and that the underserved stuff I did relates to a life story that really stands out.)

 

[AthleteDoc7]

Some very long responses in this thread for what seems to be an easy question in my mind.

When it comes to most ECs once you're in med school (besides research in many cases), if you enjoy it, do it, if you don't, don't.