Leaving MD/PhD Acceptance for WaitList

[mdphd72]

I'm currently accepted into an MD/PhD program. They want a response soon. But I am on Stanford's wait list and for a very large list of reasons, would rather go there. What are the ethical implications of dropping out of an MD/PhD program in late May or June when the research rotations start in late June or July?

Has anyone else been through this or experiencing this right now?

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[jc235693]

I think turning down an MD/PhD acceptance in the hopes of getting off a waitlist somewhere else is crazy, unless you absolutely do not want to do an MD/PhD anymore (and even if that is the case, I would try to at least get moved into the MD program at said school). That being said if you take the acceptance and then receive a late offer from Stanford, I do not see a reason as to why you wouldn't be able to take it. The MD/PhD program will definitely be able to find someone to take your place even that late in the game. If it helps I have heard of people doing this before. I was at an interview for an MSTP program that gave out a brochure that included profiles of all their first years. One of the kids bailed for a different program that he got off the waitlist on so late that they already had made the brochure with him included in it. It happens.

You've worked hard for your acceptances, take them and if you happen to get off the waitlist at other places go to the one you most want to go to.

Edit- I might have misread your post, are you on Stanford's MD/PhD waitlist or MD waitlist? Not that it would change my views on the issue, just wasn't sure if I had the situation right.

 

[TheRunner]

I'm currently accepted into an MD/PhD program. They want a response soon. But I am on Stanford's wait list and for a very large list of reasons, would rather go there. What is the ethical implications of dropping out of an MD/PhD program in late May or June when the research rotations start in late June or July?

Has anyone else been through this or experiencing this right now?

Do you mean you would drop out of the MD/PhD program if you got into Stanford off the waitlist in the summer?

 

[YouNeverKnow22]

I'm currently accepted into an MD/PhD program. They want a response soon. But I am on Stanford's wait list and for a very large list of reasons, would rather go there. What is the ethical implications of dropping out of an MD/PhD program in late May or June when the research rotations start in late June or July?

Has anyone else been through this or experiencing this right now?

lol u srs?

 

[gettheleadout]

I'm assuming OP became jaded with MD/PhD for some reason?

 

[mdphd72]

I think turning down an MD/PhD acceptance in the hopes of getting off a waitlist somewhere else is crazy, unless you absolutely do not want to do an MD/PhD anymore (and even if that is the case, I would try to at least get moved into the MD program at said school).

I completely agree. I fully intend on accepting them. I have no intention of just banking on getting off the wait list. I am definitely still in love with research. In fact, Stanford accepts M1s into their MSTP every year. And I would obviously try for that.

The MD/PhD program will definitely be able to find someone to take your place even that late in the game. If it helps I have heard of people doing this before. I was at an interview for an MSTP program that gave out a brochure that included profiles of all their first years. One of the kids bailed for a different program that he got off the waitlist on so late that they already had made the brochure with him included in it. It happens.

That actually does make me feel better . I was just concerned about ethical implications. I know that you can't bail "after matriculation/first day of orientation." But MSTP starts so early! So I was worried they may function under a different "code of conduct."

You've worked hard for your acceptances, take them and if you happen to get off the waitlist at other places go to the one you most want to go to.

Edit- I might have misread your post, are you on Stanford's MD/PhD waitlist or MD waitlist? Not that it would change my views on the issue, just wasn't sure if I had the situation right.

And to answer your question, I am only wait listed for Stanford's MD. But as I mentioned before, they take M1s every year for the dual degree. And I have a slew of other reasons--including feeling as though I genuinely belong at Stanford more than the institutions I have MSTP acceptances for and the fact that my fiancee received a fully funded grad position at Stanford for engineering.

 

[mdphd72]

Do you mean you would drop out of the MD/PhD program if you got into Stanford off the waitlist in the summer?

That's what I would like to do. I'm just curious how faux pas it is.

 

[URHere]

I turned down an MD/PhD acceptance literally a few days before I was scheduled to begin a summer research rotation. Interestingly, I also backed out of the MD/PhD program after being accepted off of an MD-only waitlist at a school much higher on my list.

Did I burn a few bridges? I'm sure I did. I know for a fact that the PI I was scheduled to work with was unhappy because she turned away other summer students so that I could rotate with her. I felt worse about that than about anything else. Honestly, it didn't seem to matter much to the program/school, although that may just have been my perception of the whole thing.

In my case, I ultimately got into a 3rd school (my first choice MD/PhD), so my problems were solved. Either way, I absolutely believe that I made the right choice by choosing the school that was best for me (even if it was, unfortunately, at the last minute).

 

[itellitlikeitis]

That's what I would like to do. I'm just curious how faux pas it is.

You're putting your wagon a mile before your horse. IF you somehow miraculously find yourself in that situation then just tell that school thanks but no thanks and don't look back. Otherwise be grateful for what you actually do have right now

 

[Frazier]

That's what I would like to do. I'm just curious how faux pas it is.

Don't mean to nazzzzi you brothaman, but faux pas is a noun - not an adjective.
Just wanted to point that out so in case it slipped your mind... That would be so elephant. 😀

 

[random cell]

And to answer your question, I am only wait listed for Stanford's MD. But as I mentioned before, they take M1s every year for the dual degree. And I have a slew of other reasons--including feeling as though I genuinely belong at Stanford more than the institutions I have MSTP acceptances for and the fact that my fiancee received a fully funded grad position at Stanford for engineering.

I hope you are aware that it is Stanford MSTP policy that they do not accept people either rejected or waitlisted by the medical school. Their MSTP only takes people accepted by the med school.

Therefore to get into Stanford MSTP you will have to get off the MD waitlist, then pray someone else accepted to their MSTP declines as well. Then pray they pick you off that waitlist.

Not sure why you're so hell-bent on Stanford MSTP though...

 

[gettheleadout]

I hope you are aware that it is Stanford MSTP policy that they do not accept people either rejected or waitlisted by the medical school. Their MSTP only takes people accepted by the med school.

Therefore to get into Stanford MSTP you will have to get off the MD waitlist, then pray someone else accepted to their MSTP declines as well. Then pray they pick you off that waitlist.

Not sure why you're so hell-bent on Stanford MSTP though...

Massive reading comprehension fail. OP already stated that Stanford accepts M1's (not waitlisted applicants) to their MSTP every year, and also listed his/her reasoning for wanting to be at Stanford earlier in this quite short thread.

 

[mdphd72]

Don't mean to nazzzzi you brothaman, but faux pas is a noun - not an adjective.
Just wanted to point that out so in case it slipped your mind... That would be so elephant. 😀

thanks 😉

 

[mdphd72]

I turned down an MD/PhD acceptance literally a few days before I was scheduled to begin a summer research rotation. Interestingly, I also backed out of the MD/PhD program after being accepted off of an MD-only waitlist at a school much higher on my list.

Did I burn a few bridges? I'm sure I did. I know for a fact that the PI I was scheduled to work with was unhappy because she turned away other summer students so that I could rotate with her. I felt worse about that than about anything else. Honestly, it didn't seem to matter much to the program/school, although that may just have been my perception of the whole thing.

In my case, I ultimately got into a 3rd school (my first choice MD/PhD), so my problems were solved. Either way, I absolutely believe that I made the right choice by choosing the school that was best for me (even if it was, unfortunately, at the last minute).

That's pretty much how I feel about it. I know it's a long shot, but I would like to be prepared. This must also mean that the "matriculation" date is the first day of rotations for MD/PhD?

It's just unfortunately (and very fortunately from other perspectives) a lot has changed since a year ago when I made the list of schools I was applying to. And now I just can't see myself going anywhere else but the medical school I'm wait listed at.

 

[Kaustikos]

I can't offer a concrete answer without knowing why you're dropping a guaranteed MD/PhD acceptance for an MD w/ the possiblity of a MD/PhD. Why didn't you list the reasons? Also, what is this school you're already accepted to?

 

[Blue Ocean]

MD/PhD programs are free, right?

 

[mdphd72]

I can't offer a concrete answer without knowing why you're dropping a guaranteed MD/PhD acceptance for an MD w/ the possiblity of a MD/PhD. Why didn't you list the reasons? Also, what is this school you're already accepted to?

I didn't list the reasons because that would involve a long post, which I doubt many people would want to read. I was simply expecting members to trust that I have numerous personal, academic, and career-oriented reasons for preferring Stanford University.

I have been accepted to the 2 University of Illinois programs.

 

[mdphd72]

MD/PhD programs are free, right?

Yes. I will have both graduate and medical tuition completely waived on top of a stipend of just under 30k

 

[mdphd72]

Massive reading comprehension fail. OP already stated that Stanford accepts M1's (not waitlisted applicants) to their MSTP every year, and also listed his/her reasoning for wanting to be at Stanford earlier in this quite short thread.

👍

 

[r1oid]

For what its worth I tell candidates who interview at our program that +/- a degree of "prestige" to go where they will be personally happy when considering a MD/PhD program. Then specifically on a few points

- Personal life : If you are in a serious relationship (marriage/fiance) distance adds some serious stress. By Dec you always see some people breaking up from their long distance relationships b/c by then you are studying for finals, stressed out, and adding relationship issues makes for a bad time. To a lesser degree family and friends factors into this equation based on how integrated they are in your life. ~8 years is a long time and the speed at which it goes by is greatly impacted by how happy you are personally.

- Career opportunity/cost : Look at the match list for the MD/PhD program and the list at the residency programs at the places you think you want to end up for the past few years. This will give you an idea about how limited you'd be at one place or how little advantage you have with being at another. Again +/- a degree there is not that much difference b/c of the place, how you do as a student/person people want to work with is what's going to impact your residency placement.

If you can go on the revisit if its offered or on your own if its not and ask to talk to a few out of state students at various points in the program. This can help you address some of your concerns.

good luck

 

[Blue Ocean]

Yes. I will have both graduate and medical tuition completely waived on top of a stipend of just under 30k

That's a HUGE advantage, you know?

 

[bobow98]

That's a HUGE advantage, you know?

Time is money. Which do you value more?

 

[mdphd72]

That's a HUGE advantage, you know?

Yes, I know . There are just many more things I value more than money. It's really not playing a role at all in my decision. When it comes down to it, doctors do just fine. And I plan on going into academia, which means all my debt will be waived after 10 years anyway.

 

[mdphd72]

Time is money. Which do you value more?

Good question: everyone sees it a little differently, I think.
I mean, I don't think being paid and having tuition waived is a negative. Like I said, there are just more important things in life. To me anyway, I don't expect everyone to agree. My fiancée and I both grew up in very modest homes who's parents never got upset about cash, and in our eyes we are lucky in that we don't fret about money in general.

 

[patel2]

Good question: everyone sees it a little differently, I think.
I mean, I don't think being paid and having tuition waived is a negative. Like I said, there are just more important things in life. To me anyway, I don't expect everyone to agree. My fiancée and I both grew up in very modest homes who's parents never got upset about cash, and in our eyes we are lucky in that we don't fret about money in general.

is the stipend all 8 years or just the PhD years? Do you continue your research while obtaining the MD?

 

[mdphd72]

is the stipend all 8 years or just the PhD years? Do you continue your research while obtaining the MD?

It actually depends. The two programs I was accepted into are very different.

The chicago one is paid every year that you are working on your degrees. You spend your summer before M1 and M2 doing research rotations. And once M2 is done, you go to start your PhD. Then once you complete the PhD, you start clinical rotations.

The Urbana-Champaign program has you start in the fall rather than the summer. And you jump into your PhD/research rotations right away while taking 1-2 M1 classes/grad classes each semester. Then when you finish your M1/PhD, you start as an M2. For there, I think you are paid every year but 1, but every student in the history of their program has received funding for that year from NIH or a similar funding source.

From what I can tell from the handful of MD/PhDs I have worked with, you still do research even after you get your PhD. It is just much much less. You still try to get that one last paper published, or that one last data set finalized. But it seems to just be a process of moving away from the research fluidly rather than an abrupt stop after your defense.

And there are some programs out there that only pay you during the grad years, or that only pay you during grad years and clinical rotations but not the first 2 years, etc.

 

[gettheleadout]

is the stipend all 8 years or just the PhD years? Do you continue your research while obtaining the MD?

The stipend covers all 7-8 years, and as far as I know, no, the research years for the Ph.D. are completely separated from the preclinical/clinical M.D. years.

 

[mdphd72]

The stipend covers all 7-8 years, and as far as I know, no, the research years for the Ph.D. are completely separated from the preclinical/clinical M.D. years.

You're referring to the format of MSTPs. These are NIH-funded and restricted to NIH guidelines. But if you aren't MSTP, you have more freedom to do what you want with the program.

 

[NickNaylor]

I think in your heart you know the answer to this question. The fact that you had to ask is indicative enough.

 

[mdphd72]

I think in your heart you know the answer to this question. The fact that you had to ask is indicative enough.

I know what I want to do. If Stanford gives me the go ahead in the next couple weeks, I'm definitely doing it. I was just curious what limitations there were. When do I reach the point of no return. Can I leave MD/PhD programs that late?

But a current MD/PhD student told me he switched programs literally days before joining a lab. So that makes me feel better.

 

[OddNath]

I'm currently accepted into an MD/PhD program. They want a response soon. But I am on Stanford's wait list and for a very large list of reasons, would rather go there. What are the ethical implications of dropping out of an MD/PhD program in late May or June when the research rotations start in late June or July?

Has anyone else been through this or experiencing this right now?

Hey there

This happens all the time-- no one can force you to make a binding decision before May 15th (or whatever the date is this year). Programs will of course encourage a quick decision, but don't feel pressured. On our end, we know that once people drop all offers but one on May 15th, spots open up and a massive sort of shuffling happens. This happens every year.

So, unless things have changed and MD/PhD programs are now allowed to give out "exploding" offers which expire before May 15th, just keep your options open. Good luck with the waitlist process.

 

[URHere]

I know what I want to do. If Stanford gives me the go ahead in the next couple weeks, I'm definitely doing it. I was just curious what limitations there were. When do I reach the point of no return. Can I leave MD/PhD programs that late?

But a current MD/PhD student told me she switched programs literally days before joining a lab. So that makes me feel better.

Fixed that for you!

The only thing that I would check up on is when you would officially count as a "matriculated student". For some schools this will be once you begin your research rotation. For others it may be the date they send you your first stipend check or the date your health insurance kicks in (this is usually the 1st of the month, even if your rotation begins at the end of that month). It has always been my impression that once you fall into the matriculated category, you are locked-in and unable to accept a spot from a waitlist (although I can't give a source for that, and I may have imagined this fact).

 

[mdphd72]

Fixed that for you!

The only thing that I would check up on is when you would officially count as a "matriculated student". For some schools this will be once you begin your research rotation. For others it may be the date they send you your first stipend check or the date your health insurance kicks in (this is usually the 1st of the month, even if your rotation begins at the end of that month). It has always been my impression that once you fall into the matriculated category, you are locked-in and unable to accept a spot from a waitlist (although I can't give a source for that, and I may have imagined this fact).

Woops! Sorry about that. I asked the secretary what the matriculation date was and she said my first day in the lab. And considering the fact that I have a lot of control over that, I am feeling better about this. But it turns out that 90 people went to Stanford's admit weekend... so looks like I won't have to worry about this at all. Now I just have to worry about dealing with a long distance relationships for 8 years. 😕

 

[UbuntuGM]

Woops! Sorry about that. I asked the secretary what the matriculation date was and she said my first day in the lab. And considering the fact that I have a lot of control over that, I am feeling better about this. But it turns out that 90 people went to Stanford's admit weekend... so looks like I won't have to worry about this at all. Now I just have to worry about dealing with a long distance relationships for 8 years. 😕

Me too! UGH!:cry:

 

[Beren]

I'm surprised this thread has garnered so many posts and is still going strong. Facing a similarly difficult choice in choosing a MSTP in conjunction with a contuining relationship has taught me three things:

1) Listening to the perspectives of such a diverse crowd is low-yield. Everyone weighs prestige, personal relationships, geography, and earning power very differently. Best talk to older folks (i.e. faculty) at both instutions honestly. They have made similar choices before and will give you a fair assessment. Then, you'll have to suck it up and choose for yourself.

2) Best advice I've gotten: 'You are lucky to have this choice. Take a step back, imagine you are advising someone like a sibling or best friend. What would you tell them?' This may be the best indicator of what is truest for you.

3) That being said, the prospect of Stanford is tantalizing but very risky. First getting off the waitlist will be difficult. Applying internally may be even more so - they only accept ~2 students per year.

Good luck!

 

[Kaustikos]

The Urbana-Champaign program has you start in the fall rather than the summer. And you jump into your PhD/research rotations right away while taking 1-2 M1 classes/grad classes each semester. Then when you finish your M1/PhD, you start as an M2. For there, I think you are paid every year but 1, but every student in the history of their program has received funding for that year from NIH or a similar funding source.


And there are some programs out there that only pay you during the grad years, or that only pay you during grad years and clinical rotations but not the first 2 years, etc.

I would avoid the MD/PhD program in urbana-champagn 👎. Not just from your description but from the quality of their PhD programs relating to health/bio.

 

[mdphd72]

I would avoid the MD/PhD program in urbana-champagn 👎. Not just from your description but from the quality of their PhD programs relating to health/bio.

That's an interesting perspective. UIUC offers a substantially better PhD environment than many MD/PhD programs for the fact that MSTPs have a time frame they desperately try to meet. So graduates from UIUC acquire "real" PhDs of substantial length resulting in a normal PhD experience. And a large fraction of their nobel laureates are in the field of medicine and physiology. Are you basing this off of some US News ranking or something similar?

 

[mdphd72]

I'm surprised this thread has garnered so many posts and is still going strong. Facing a similarly difficult choice in choosing a MSTP in conjunction with a contuining relationship has taught me three things:

1) Listening to the perspectives of such a diverse crowd is low-yield. Everyone weighs prestige, personal relationships, geography, and earning power very differently. Best talk to older folks (i.e. faculty) at both instutions honestly. They have made similar choices before and will give you a fair assessment. Then, you'll have to suck it up and choose for yourself.

2) Best advice I've gotten: 'You are lucky to have this choice. Take a step back, imagine you are advising someone like a sibling or best friend. What would you tell them?' This may be the best indicator of what is truest for you.

3) That being said, the prospect of Stanford is tantalizing but very risky. First getting off the waitlist will be difficult. Applying internally may be even more so - they only accept ~2 students per year.

Good luck!

My first post must not have been very clear. I know what is important to me. And I will gladly take Stanford's offer as soon as I am given the opportunity. I know the risks, and I know what I'm losing. But the many things I'm gaining are particularly important to me as an individual. My original point of the thread was to ask if I could drop a MD/PhD after May 15. Can I drop them in June if I get off the waitlist, basically. I felt like MD/PhD programs might have more strict regulations because you usually start rotations 8 weeks or so before the first day of class.

But I'm glad that some insightful and interesting conversations have stemmed from my post. I am also surprised by its activity.

 

[mdphd72]

Me too! UGH!:cry:

I feel for ya! You're definitely not alone

 

[mdphd72]

UPDATE! I spoke openly with the program and they totally understood my situation. But a ton has changed in the last few days. I've acquired more information about Stanford. My boyfriend has decided to go to MIT. And I attended the UIC 2nd look....

I'm totally spending the next 8 years in the center of Chicago. And I am SO excited. 🙂

 

[gettheleadout]

UPDATE! I spoke openly with the program and they totally understood my situation. But a ton has changed in the last few days. I've acquired more information about Stanford. My boyfriend has decided to go to MIT. And I attended the UIC 2nd look....

I'm totally spending the next 8 years in the center of Chicago. And I am SO excited. 🙂

Glad to hear you've resolved everything, congrats and good luck!

 

[itellitlikeitis]

UPDATE! I spoke openly with the program and they totally understood my situation. But a ton has changed in the last few days. I've acquired more information about Stanford. My boyfriend has decided to go to MIT. And I attended the UIC 2nd look....

I'm totally spending the next 8 years in the center of Chicago. And I am SO excited. 🙂

Congrats! What I was trying to hint at earlier was that I didn't think you realized the reality of how difficult it is to get in off the waitlist for Stanford by the way you spoke about your situation. Nice to see everything worked out in the end

 

[random cell]

UPDATE! I spoke openly with the program and they totally understood my situation. But a ton has changed in the last few days. I've acquired more information about Stanford. My boyfriend has decided to go to MIT. And I attended the UIC 2nd look....

I'm totally spending the next 8 years in the center of Chicago. And I am SO excited. 🙂

$50 bucks OP is still on Stanford's waitlist and obsesses about it everyday.

 

[mdphd72]

$50 bucks OP is still on Stanford's waitlist and obsesses about it everyday.

I'll get back to you. Just made the calls today, so we'll see if I still obsess about it. 😛

 

[mdphd72]

You know, glancing over this thread again made me realize how much can change in such an incredibly small amount of time. It's a very intense realization.