LECOM-B vs. Touro Harlem

[Zinc14]

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[Peach Newport]

How did you even get an interview at NYITCOM as a PA resident?

Anyway, don't think of Touro as "flipped classroom." Think of it as mandatory attendence.

 

[Zinc14]

How did you even get an interview at NYITCOM as a PA resident?

Anyway, don't think of Touro as "flipped classroom." Think of it as mandatory attendence.

I don't know how I got an interview at NYITCOM.. but I did get it super late (I was complete in august and interviewed in february). there were actually several PA and NJ students in my interview group.

Are you a touro NY student? do most students not like the flipped classroom system?

 

[Peach Newport]

I don't know how I got an interview at NYITCOM.. but I did get it super late (I was complete in august and interviewed in february). there were actually several PA and NJ students in my interview group.

Are you a touro NY student? do most students not like the flipped classroom system?

Strange. NYCOM has a bit of a reputation for having a heavy in-state bias.

Yes, I'm a Touro Harlem student. The "flipped classroom" is pretty unpopular. I can't say I've met anyone who likes it. However, it's very important to note that this is NOT because of the flipped classroom part. People don't hate it because of the clicker sessions, they hate it because it's essentially mandatory attendance. Compared to traditional mandatory lectures, the clicker system/flipped classroom is actually a slight improvement. But pretty much all of us would have preferred non-mandatory attendance. Having to sit in class puts an extra time strain on us. You eventually learn to deal with it, but it makes it harder than it needs to be.

 

[Zinc14]

Strange. NYCOM has a bit of a reputation for having a heavy in-state bias.

Yes, I'm a Touro Harlem student. The "flipped classroom" is pretty unpopular. I can't say I've met anyone who likes it. However, it's very important to note that this is NOT because of the flipped classroom part. People don't hate it because of the clicker sessions, they hate it because it's essentially mandatory attendance. Compared to traditional mandatory lectures, the clicker system/flipped classroom is actually a slight improvement. But pretty much all of us would have preferred non-mandatory attendance. Having to sit in class puts an extra time strain on us. You eventually learn to deal with it, but it makes it harder than it needs to be.

Thanks for your input @Peach Newport! How many hours per day do you spend in class (clicker sessions)? From what time to what time (ex. 8-12pm?)? Do you have all the resources you need to study successfully at home (powerpoints, video lecture recordings, etc)? And I heard you get a test or quiz every week--is that correct? Thanks so much--really appreciate the help!

 

[hallowmann]

How did you even get an interview at NYITCOM as a PA resident?

Anyway, don't think of Touro as "flipped classroom." Think of it as mandatory attendence.

I agree, everyone I knew at Touro-NY actually strongly disliked that aspect of the curriculum. It's much less engaging (apparently) than it seems on the interview.

Did you apply to LECOM in PA? Seton Hill for PBL and a friendlier atmosphere sounds like it would have been a better option for you specifically, but research would have been harder to find. You would have been able to stay close to home, do the whole PBL thing, live in a cheaper area while going to a cheaper school, etc.

Most of the strong reasons point to LECOM-B, in my opinion, but something you really should be concerned about are the rotations and how you get to select sites. If you think you'll have your pick of PA sites coming from LECOM-B, that's not really how it works. The PA students (Erie and SH) get first priority, then after they are all sorted, some Bradenton students can go up north to the spots leftover. Usually they're not the best rotation sites (some are good, but some aren't) and you have pretty little control over the process (or at least that's how it was for the LECOM-B students I know up here).

Another issue is preparation for the PE. Supposedly, this aspect of the curriculum has been improved, but last year 15%+ from Bradenton failed the PE. It's really a test that if you prepare for, you should be able to pass easily, but that's a high number, that you don't see at the other LECOM campuses.

Now keep in mind, I heard from Touro-NY 4th year students that 15-20% failed the Level 2 CE in their class, so that's a whole other problem.

If I were you, I'd learn more about the process of getting rotations up north. Maybe it's changed. LECOM is a good school with lots of affiliated residencies, but in Bradenton clinical sites and the PE are/were an issue, and as a whole the administration is abrasive.

I'm giving this info about both schools, because these are really the things you should be investigating (their known weaknesses). No school is perfect and every DO school has some glaring issue, but if I were you I'd make sure I was familiar with these issues ahead of time.

 

[firstaidforever]

Whoa. Mandatory attendance is one of the very first and biggest deal-breakers when choosing a school.

If you have two options, always pick the one that let's you choose whether you want to attend class or not. Given such a gaping flaw, Touro should be immediately disqualified off your list.

 

[trc0011]

Whoa. Mandatory attendance is one of the very first and biggest deal-breakers when choosing a school.

If you have two options, always pick the one that let's you choose whether you want to attend class or not. Given such a gaping flaw, Touro should be immediately disqualified off your list.

Why? I'm genuinely curious. It seems that if you didn't want to listen in lecture, you could throw in some headphones and study whichever way you wanted to while you're in there.


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[firstaidforever]

Why? I'm genuinely curious. It seems that if you didn't want to listen in lecture, you could throw in some headphones and study whichever way you wanted to while you're in there.


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Perhaps some Touro students can chime in here?

For me, headphones would still not suffice, and as far as I've seen, most schools with mandatory attendance have rules against headphones as well. It'd be dumb to unnecessarily put yourself in a position that could have you referred to the Dean's office for professional conduct.

 

[Peach Newport]

Why? I'm genuinely curious. It seems that if you didn't want to listen in lecture, you could throw in some headphones and study whichever way you wanted to while you're in there.


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Some schools don't allow you to wear headphones in lecture. Touro, at least now, lets you study during lecture.

Do not minimize the impact of mandatory attendance. Even if you can study during lectures, it won't be nearly as efficient. Before I started school, I also didn't see why mandatory lecture was a bad thing. I soon realized that it was a tremendous time sink, even if I studied during class. It's kind of hard to describe why it's so annoying, but I'll try. It's the difference between being able to do something fun one night a week, and being able to do something fun one night every 1-2 months. It's the difference between being able to take a full day off from studying once-twice a month, or never. It's the difference between whether you can go out to a nice dinner with your SO, or having to order delivery. It can be the difference between having time to cook, clean, do laundry, and grocery shop, or half-assing those thing and paying someone to do them for you.

You might get used to it, but it will always be a pain in the ass, and you will make more sacrifices than should be necessary.

Touro Harlem TYPICAL schedule, first semester (note that the schedule will change a few times a semester)

Monday: tests, 9-12 (usually)
Tuesday: anatomy +lab 9-12 or 11-2 (depending on your group)
Wednesday: PD, lab, lectures 8-4
Thursday: OMM lab/Histo lab 8-3
Friday: anatomy +lab 9-12 or 11-2

Second semester is pretty much the same except that Wednesday is now 8-5, and in the second half of the semester, Friday is only an hour with no lab.

Usually I'd take the school with no mandatory attendance, but PBL sounds like mandatory attendance to me, so IdK.

 

[firstaidforever]

Some schools don't allow you to wear headphones in lecture. Touro, at least now, lets you study during lecture.

Do not minimize the impact of mandatory attendance. Even if you can study during lectures, it won't be nearly as efficient. Before I started school, I also didn't see why mandatory lecture was a bad thing. I soon realized that it was a tremendous time sink, even if I studied during class. It's kind of hard to describe why it's so annoying, but I'll try. It's the difference between being able to do something fun one night a week, and being able to do something fun one night every 1-2 months. It's the difference between being able to take a full day off from studying once-twice a month, or never. It's the difference between whether you can go out to a nice dinner with your SO, or having to order delivery. It can be the difference between having time to cook, clean, do laundry, and grocery shop, or half-assing those thing and paying someone to do them for you.

You might get used to it, but it will always be a pain in the ass, and you will make more sacrifices than should be necessary.

Touro Harlem schedule, first semester:

Monday: tests, 9-12 or 11-2 (depending on your group)
Tuesday: anatomy +lab 9-12
Wednesday: PD, lab, lectures 8-4
Thursday: OMM lab/Histo lab 8-3
Friday: anatomy +lab 9-12 or 11-2

Second semester is pretty much the same except that Wednesday is now 8-5, and in the second half of the semester, Friday is only an hour with no lab.

Usually I'd take the school with no mandatory attendance, but PBL sounds like mandatory attendance to me, so IdK.

You're tested every monday??

That's really ridiculous. They're sinking your wednesdays and thursdays with class and eating up your weekends with monday exams on top? My condolences. I wouldn't even pass the boards if I had that much school work.

 

[Peach Newport]

You're tested every monday??

That's really ridiculous. They're sinking your wednesdays and thursdays with class and eating up your weekends with monday exams on top? My condolences. I wouldn't even pass the boards if I had that much school work.

Actually, some weeks we have 2 written (Monday) tests, and this doesn't count OMM and PD (OSCE) practicals, which are on Thursday and Wednesday, respectively, and this is in addition to the Monday tests. In the beginning of second semester we had 2 written + 1 practical per week. Finals week both semesters we'd have 4 tests.

A week with only one test is a good week. Without looking at the schedule, id say 30-40% of our weeks have more than one test.

This is actually not unique to Touro. Everyone I know at other medical schools has a similar schedule. Some particularly enlightened schools may limit you to one test a week or every 2 weeks, but they're the exception.

 

[firstaidforever]

Actually, some weeks we have 2 written (Monday) tests, and this doesn't count OMM and PD (OSCE) practicals, which are on Thursday and Wednesday, respectively, and this is in addition to the Monday tests. In the beginning of second semester we had 2 written + 1 practical per week. Finals week both semesters we'd have 4 tests.

This is actually not unique to Touro. Everyone I know at other medical schools has a similar schedule. Some particularly enlightened schools may limit you to one test a week or every 2 weeks, but they're the exception.

That's far from the norm! I really feel for you guys.

We take 1 mixed-subject test every three weeks and there's no such thing as final's week. May I ask how much board studying time you would typically have in a week? Edit: and how many weeks of dedicated you get?

Sorry if I'm asking excessive questions. I had an interview at Touro-Ny that I didnt attend. I'm just a bit curious on what life would've been like had I chosen NYC.

 

[Peach Newport]

That's far from the norm! I really feel for you guys.

We take 1 mixed-subject test every three weeks and there's no such thing as final's week. May I ask how much board studying time you would typically have in a week? Edit: and how many weeks of dedicated you get?

Sorry if I'm asking excessive questions. I had an interview at Touro-Ny that I didnt attend. I'm just a bit curious on what life would've been like had I chosen NYC.

As far as I know we do not get any time off to study for boards. I may be wrong. What school do you go to? Every school I interviewed at had a similar schedule, although it seems like most schools did give time off to study for boards..

 

[firstaidforever]

As far as I know we do not get any time off to study for boards. I may be wrong. What school do you go to? Every school I interviewed at had a similar schedule, although it seems like most schools did give time off to study for boards..

I'd rather keep it anonymous but it's in the midwest. Of all the MDs and DOs, the worst that I've heard of in our region was one test every other week.

 

[Zinc14]

thanks so much for the helpful info @Peach Newport and @hallowmann!!

@Peach Newport, it seems like from the typical schedule you posted, you would have to attend most of the labs (anatomy, OMM, histo) anyway for most other med schools too, right? so the extra "wasted" time for clickers is just on Mondays and Wednesdays? You do get powerpoints, video recordings, etc to use to study at home, right?

One of my biggest concerns with PBL is that I'll just have huge textbooks to teach myself and that's it... no other resources. Also, with PBL, you only get 3 exams in the whole semester. if you mess up one, you're screwed! In that sense, maybe Touro's weekly testing might help because it will help you keep on top of the material every week (even if it means constant studying/prep) and gives you more chances to improve your grade? Or am I completely wrong about this??

@hallowmann, I've heard the same thing about PA sites for LECOM B students--they don't get first pick and often end up with crappy sites, which would stink 🙁 I applied to LECOM PA campuses but only just got an interview (for early march)... LECOM PA was definitely one of my top choices because of proximity to home, lower costs, more chances of getting rotations in PA hospitals I like.

 

[Peach Newport]

thanks so much for the helpful info @Peach Newport and @hallowmann!!

@Peach Newport, it seems like from the typical schedule you posted, you would have to attend most of the labs (anatomy, OMM, histo) anyway for most other med schools too, right? so the extra "wasted" time for clickers is just on Mondays and Wednesdays? You do get powerpoints, video recordings, etc to use to study at home, right?

One of my biggest concerns with PBL is that I'll just have huge textbooks to teach myself and that's it... no other resources. Also, with PBL, you only get 3 exams in the whole semester. if you mess up one, you're screwed! In that sense, maybe Touro's weekly testing might help because it will help you keep on top of the material every week (even if it means constant studying/prep) and gives you more chances to improve your grade? Or am I completely wrong about this??

@hallowmann, I've heard the same thing about PA sites for LECOM B students--they don't get first pick and often end up with crappy sites, which would stink 🙁 I applied to LECOM PA campuses but only just got an interview (for early march)... LECOM PA was definitely one of my top choices because of proximity to home, lower costs, more chances of getting rotations in PA hospitals I like.

The labs are SUPER mandatory at Touro. Do not miss them. But yeah, I'm pretty sure they're mandatory at other schools. You're right about the wasted time, it's mostly Wednesdays, but having 2 labs on Thursday is pretty crappy.

You do get power points and video lectures. Some classes, however, require you to also do reading. Histo, Physiology, pathology, and to a lesser extent anatomy will test you on some things in the book but not lectures.

Idk about having more chances to screw up/redeem yourself. You might get more chances to redeem yourself but you also get more chances to screw up.

I've never heard of touro having PA rotation sites. We might have them, I haven't checked closely. Most of our sites are in north jersey, with some scattered in the outer boroughs and Orange County.

 

[hallowmann]

LECOM also has mandatory attendence, but when PBL goes into full swing (after anatomy which is a busier schedule), you are there for 2 hrs on PBL days (3 days a week) and then 4-6hrs on the other 2 days of the week for random lectures, OMM, clinical skills, and other random small courses. It's actually a very manageable schedule if you stay on top of your readings, but it is mandatory attendence.

OP, I really think you'd do better at Seton Hill or even Erie, mainly because of proximity to home and rotation sites. The good thing is that you could potentially get in to LECOM in PA, and then express to them your interest, and possibly transfer your LECOM-B deposit there. No guarantees though, but I've heard of it being done before, but that was years ago and I don't know if the person who did it had connections. I've also heard of people transferring from LECOM-B to E/SH and vice versa, so that's another option if you end up there, but I have no idea how hard that process is.

I'd really think about which school (LECOM vs. Touro) you want to end up with. They will both likely result in the same opportunites and its really personal how you would do with each curriculum.

For me personally Touro-NY was a hard sell because of cost (both tuition and cost of living).

 

[Zinc14]

The labs are SUPER mandatory at Touro. Do not miss them. But yeah, I'm pretty sure they're mandatory at other schools. You're right about the wasted time, it's mostly Wednesdays, but having 2 labs on Thursday is pretty crappy.

You do get power points and video lectures. Some classes, however, require you to also do reading. Histo, Physiology, pathology, and to a lesser extent anatomy will test you on some things in the book but not lectures.

Idk about having more chances to screw up/redeem yourself. You might get more chances to redeem yourself but you also get more chances to screw up.

I've never heard of touro having PA rotation sites. We might have them, I haven't checked closely. Most of our sites are in north jersey, with some scattered in the outer boroughs and Orange County.

Thanks @Peach Newport! Do you have to buy all the textbooks? Also, do you know if most students get a 1 year long or 2 year long rotation site? Are most students happy with the rotations situation? I did see there is one rotation site in Philadelphia, which I would be interested in--but would you have any idea how many students such a site would take?

LECOM also has mandatory attendence, but when PBL goes into full swing (after anatomy which is a busier schedule), you are there for 2 hrs on PBL days (3 days a week) and then 4-6hrs on the other 2 days of the week for random lectures, OMM, clinical skills, and other random small courses. It's actually a very manageable schedule if you stay on top of your readings, but it is mandatory attendence.

OP, I really think you'd do better at Seton Hill or even Erie, mainly because of proximity to home and rotation sites. The good thing is that you could potentially get in to LECOM in PA, and then express to them your interest, and possibly transfer your LECOM-B deposit there. No guarantees though, but I've heard of it being done before, but that was years ago and I don't know if the person who did it had connections. I've also heard of people transferring from LECOM-B to E/SH and vice versa, so that's another option if you end up there, but I have no idea how hard that process is.

I'd really think about which school (LECOM vs. Touro) you want to end up with. They will both likely result in the same opportunites and its really personal how you would do with each curriculum.

For me personally Touro-NY was a hard sell because of cost (both tuition and cost of living).

Thanks @hallowmann! I agree--PBL sounds manageable but I just don't know if it would work for me... I am an independent learner but the thought of having only 3 exams a semester with each testing a 1000 pages of material seems a little daunting to me... I love powerpoints so I'm leaning toward Touro a little more right now... but thinking about the cost is killing me!....

However, your advice about LECOM SH is super helpful! I would definitely consider this whole situation again if I were accepted there.

 

[Peach Newport]

Thanks @Peach Newport! Do you have to buy all the textbooks? Also, do you know if most students get a 1 year long or 2 year long rotation site? Are most students happy with the rotations situation? I did see there is one rotation site in Philadelphia, which I would be interested in--but would you have any idea how many students such a site would take?

Thanks @hallowmann! I agree--PBL sounds manageable but I just don't know if it would work for me... I am an independent learner but the thought of having only 3 exams a semester with each testing a 1000 pages of material seems a little daunting to me... I love powerpoints so I'm leaning toward Touro a little more right now... but thinking about the cost is killing me!....

However, your advice about LECOM SH is super helpful! I would definitely consider this whole situation again if I were accepted there.

From talking with students, I hear a lot of people say the rotations are "really mixed," as in, there are as many great rotations as there are awful ones.

I have no idea how the scheduling works.

Do not discount the importance of debt and cost. Personally, if I were in your situation, I would have gone with less debt and more sunshine. Not saying Touro is a bad choice at all, but you should consider more than rotation sites. Also, you should really talk to some current students about how they handle the "3 tests per semester" situation.