Lecture notes from American Universities!

[rachelthehobbit]

---

Members don't see this ad.

Hi everyone!

I have a favour to ask any American medical student (or, in fact, any medical student that reckons they're at a good uni). If you don't want to hear my full rant, please just scroll to the bottom, and see what it is I'm asking, or skim my post or something.

I'm an Australian medical student who's just completed 2 years of medical studies. Over these 2 years, I've become increasingly dissatisfied in the standard of teaching that I'm receiving.

I'm not sure about in the US, but over here, Problem Based Learning is like the cool thing in medical studies... the problem is, after 2 years of being in the system, it seems more and more like a money saving tactic on the Uni's behalf. That is, they tell us that we will learn more effectively if we get the material ourself... in other words, they shift the responsibility away from the Uni and towards the student, as far as it goes in terms of teaching us what is important. So, if we don't study key concepts, they get to tell us it's our fault, even if they were never mentioned in lectures. We should have worked out for ourself it was important. My question to them is: how on earth are we supposed to know what to study? And it's not just my question, it's the question that every student in my uni asks.

I don't wish to give all Australian Universities a bad name: other unis around Australia do a little better, but all the same, from browsing these forums I strongly get the impression that your grounding in basic sciences is significantly significantly significantly better.

Anyway, enough complaining...

I've got a request to ask of anyone out there who is reading this. I really would like to get some good notes. I know I can pass my medical degree quite happily without them, but if I'm going to spend 5 years on a medical degree I'd like to come out at the other end with some decent level of medical knowledge.

I've got my hands on the Goljan audio lectures even though I never plan to sit the American exams, I've got lots of textbooks, etc, you get the point. But what I really really would like is a set of good, complete, lecture notes from a uni that teaches its students what it thinks is important to practice medicine.

Yes, I want to be a good student, but more than that, I don't want to end up with a "Dr" at the beginning of my name, but wonder every day that I work if I could've done a better job of things if I studied more as a student.


I know a lot of the american unis give out recordings of their lectures, and perhaps they give out lecture slides as well in some electronic form?

If this sounds like your uni, I have a request: would you be able to burn these onto a cd (or a few cds) for me? I'll quite happily pay for the effort it takes for you to get the stuff onto a cd and post it to me.

Pretty please?

I'd be very happy if you'd post your thoughts below, or send me a private message =)

Cheers,
Rachel.

 

[RaaMD]

I sympathize with your experience with PBL. I too have a strong dislike for it. You will find many on here that feel similarly. In regards to lecture notes, good luck with that. I don't know if anyone would be willing to do that for you and how helpful they would be for you. You could always get a Kaplan review set and add on some other popular review books to see what is covered.

 

[DoctorFunk]

Might be tough to find someone to help you out. I know at my school they have expressly forbidden us from giving our notes, powerpoint files, or lecture recordings to anyone outside of the school due to copyright issues. Pretty sure if one of us got caught distributing them for any reason that there is a significant chance of getting expelled.

 

[Tristy]

It's true what Dr Funk says, we are also forbidden to distribute the material they give us due to copyright issues. Maybe you can do a search on google and if you're lucky you'll find some good (open source?) material. GL!

 

[Tired]

Personally I love PBL. The lectures were a total waste of my time, but PBL actually taught me to use the literature and learn how to answer my own clinical questions. No better way to impress an attending during 3rd year than to bust out a paper on a topic he/she was discussing an hour ago.

 

[rachelthehobbit]

Hey, thanks for the replies guys! I didn't think about copyright issues when i was writing my post, actually.

On the note of willingness to help... like i said, if there's anyone interested even if only vaguely so, please private message me, I'm not a doctor's kid with money coming out of my ears or anything; but I am willing to pay reasonable rates for the effort it takes you to get this stuff to me though, and I will consider all offers, so please send me a line if you can help.

If there are copyright issues related to your notes, seriously, I don't want to get anyone into trouble. All I can do is assure people that I'm not at all interested in selling and distributing or anything crazy like that, and I don't have to have any personal information about who you are if you're worried about privacy issues, ie, giving personal information to a random person over the net.

I just want to have a bit more guidance than approximately 15 lousy hours of anatomy teaching we get in a whole year. Lol, it's no wonder that our newspapers are full of stories about medical students who couldn't tell if an organ was a heart or a liver. Seriously...

RaaMD: I do appreciate your alternative suggestions, though. What is the Kaplan review series? I've heard a lot about Kaplan, and it sounds like he puts out good material. My only reason for a preference for lecturematerial (though I can understand the problems with getting it) is that I want stuff that will help me be a good doctor, not stuff that will help me get through exams. May I ask your opinion on the Kaplan material for my purposes?

Thanks a heap =)

 

[Ezekiel20]

You sound like you're from my uni.. perhaps even from my class..? 🙂

First of all, I cannot help you with what you requested, but just thought I'd share my perspective, for what it's worth.

I do share some of your concerns - Australian med schools aren't hell bent on making their students cram hardcore anatomy or physiology. For example, we did not have to learn any physiology formulae that I was forced to memorise back in undergrad (Nernst potential equations etc). Also, I learnt much more anatomy back in undergrad than I have in med school (back then I was able to recite the 5 branches of the nerve x, the paths of most major vessels etc).

However, the notion that PBL saves money for the university is most likely a myth more than anything.

In my uni there are like 35 PBL groups with about 8 people per group. Do you think it's cheaper to pay 35 PBL tutors to run 3 sessions per week (a total of 105 sessions per week) or pay a single lecturer to give 10 lectures per week in front of the whole class?

I think the uni insists on PBL because it believes in it, not because it is cost-saving etc. I had a chance to have a chat with Prof Ann Sefton, who played a pivotal role in changing the 6-yr undergrad course to the current 4 year GMP course at Sydney Uni. She told me that one of the biggest concerns in the old program was the high drop-out rate approaching 10%, as students did not enjoy the course.

I did medical science for my undergrad where I sometimes crammed info without truly understanding it, and guess what? I dont' remember much at all now, although at the time I was getting distinctions etc.

I've talked to some friends of mine who went through the old 6-year program at UNSW, and they tell me that despite all the immunology and physiology they memorised for exams, what remains is what you see during your clinical years and not what you memorised.

I personally enjoyed the PBL format, because approaching each body system with a clinical scenario was more fun than having lectures on each and everything there is. I made it a point to use the PBL as a starting point only, and learn broadly using different books.

At the end of the day, Aussie med schools do a good job in preparing its graduates for internship in Australia.

Australian medical training differs from that of the US, in that most Aussie graduate do not pick their specialty until 3 years after graduation, as opposed to US students who pick them during their 4th year in med school and enter internship as part of their chosen specialty training (hence you hear people saying "I matched into neuro/EM/surgery etc").

The other major difference is that Aussie med students pay just over US$4000 per year for tuition (this is what I pay anyway), but US students pay 5-10 times that. So in a way Aussie students can afford to spend 3 years doing pre-vocational training as JMO/RMO before choosing a specialty.

I used to be disappointed by the slightly relaxed nature of my course, but in the end decided to keep the faith and let the system take care of me. I tried my best to ensure I knew enough, and have read my physiology text cover to cover many times, among other things..

If you're a North American student however, I totally understand your frustration, because you might find yourself knowing less than your counterparts when you return to US/Canada etc. This is in spite of the Aussie schools actively marketing its programme to North American students telling them they will be able to do internship back in the US/Can no problems.

Good luck with getting what you requested though - (this is a genuine "good luck", not the sarcastic one..!) 🙂

 

[Ezekiel20]

Hi Rachel just read some of your recent posts.. but I'm not sure if you're in 2nd year or 3rd year..?

Most GMPs have similar curricula, and my experience was that although anatomy teaching was quite light in 1st year, it really took off in 2nd year. Looking back, I don't know how I could have handled more anatomy if they gave me more..

If you're just beginning 2nd year, you might be in for a surprise.. I found that 2nd year was much harder than 1st year, with all the neuroanatomy etc, and gastro/endo/renal weren't easy either.

I said that the workload was rather relaxed overall because I didn't experience the extremes of emotion that is often talked about on this forum. But honestly, in the 3 months leading up to the "barrier" exam, I was studying a lot.. culminating in the last 4 weeks during which I probably studied 10 hours a day at least. But since I haven't experienced a US school, I cannot make any comparison and just assume that things are much tougher in the US.

Regards,

 

[rachelthehobbit]

Hey Ezekiel20 - I've been doing med for 2 years, so this'll be my 3rd year.

However, the notion that PBL saves money for the university is most likely a myth more than anything.

In my uni there are like 35 PBL groups with about 8 people per group. Do you think it's cheaper to pay 35 PBL tutors to run 3 sessions per week (a total of 105 sessions per week) or pay a single lecturer to give 10 lectures per week in front of the whole class?

Hey, no, i'm not at Sydney uni! I wouldn't mind being there, though, I heard it's good, though your post did put some doubts into my mind!).

I dunno how it works at sydney uni, but at my uni, we get 4 hours of PBL a week (it used to be 6 but they cut back), and our tutor isn't necessarily even a person with a medical background (I've seen a mix of doctors, 5th year medical students, but also people with a general background in education/teaching). In fact, i hear that in higher years of our course we might not even have PBL tutors any more.

Does my uni believe in PBL?

I think it does honestly believe that it is a good way of teaching. In principle, i do actually agree with them. But I have eyes to see with, and I can see that they don't believe it's a good way to examine students - and that's one place where i think the system falls apart. To preserve the image of PBL learning, they want to claim that the exams will be PBL based, while at the same time, assessing material that is quite obviously taken directly from lectures. But the uni still maintains that PBL material is what assessable, and lectures are to be supplementary knowledge only.

It's blatant hypocrisy. Inevitably, lost first year students who know nothing of the system fail as a result. Even scholarship students manage to fail. People within the uni have tried to push students in the favour of PBL rather than lecture based learning, and have done so with so much seeming sincerity that even mature aged students in their second year, who outgrew being naieve long ago, have also failed as a result.

Where else do i think the system falls apart?

Well, like i said, in principle i love the idea of PBL learning. It allows me to explore what I'm interested in. I question, though, how much better it makes stuff stick in my head. For me, when i spend hours working at learning something, I learn to love it, not hate it (maths is probably the only exception!). But to me, it's also important to know that (1) what i'm studying is actually going to help me, and not just "for fun", cos if that's the case i'd rather watch Lost... and (2) going on wild goose chases isn't going to stop me learning what's important.

I really fail to see how it would hurt to give a little bit of guidance here and there. I'm sure there are many concepts that are actually important to learn, and I mean, some people may have medical parents to tell them that they should be learning it, but I don't have anyone with that broader perspective. PBL tutors are told not to "teach" (though personally I love it when they break this rule and do teach us); lecturers are not supposed in any way to be complete... so where do we get our guidance from?

Btw, i think at sydney you would get some sort of basic science grounded (if not, i guess you have your medical sciences degree to help you out anyway). But we don't - not at all. We started PBL on day one, which was exciting, but maybe it wasn't a great idea. Biology was not a prerequisite nor even an assumed knowledge subject, so i figured they'd teach it to us, but they didn't. I still can't remember which one is meiosis and which one is mitosis. hehe.

Anyway, I know it's not going to happen, but what i would really like would be something like an HSC syllabus for the med course. After that, I dont mind getting the info for myself! Maybe if i wait a few hundred years that might happen...

I know exaactly what you mean when you talk about the lack of pressures in medical schools here. I study an average amount for my course, and it's not much. But i know people who i can see will get through their degree (though perhaps accumulating a couple of fails here and there) by attending 4 hours of PBL per week, skipping almost all the lectures, maybe studying for 2 hours a week, and cramming 1 week out from the exam.

I guess the system will take care of me, and if i don't learn stuff now, i will later - after all, there's internship, residency, and much more after. But it's just frustrating that i'm willing to put in those hours of study, but after 2 years, it's still not clear where i should direct my time. Right now I'm not happy just to "drift" through the system.

Anyway, thanks a lot for replying, nice to see a fellow Aussie around =)

Tired: if you don't want your lecture notes cos they're useless to you, i'll babysit them for you 😛

 

[DoctorFunk]

I wholeheartedly support the reasoning behind your request, so I really hope you find what you are looking for. That being said, my experience with lecture notes leads me to believe that they will often not be complete enough for you to fully grasp the subjects they are covering. Often holes need to be filled in by the lecturer.

I think a better alternative would be to utilize some of the excellent review books that many of us use as a major source of our learning as they are more complete and often stick to the more clinically relevant material than the PhDs teaching our courses. These are also very easy to obtain through sources like Amazon.

My suggestions for basic science material:
Lippincott's Biochemistry
Board Review Series Gross Anatomy (with a copy of Netter's Atlas)
Costanzo's Physiology (the larger text, not the BRS one)
High Yield Cell & Molecular Biology
Rapid Review Pathology, 2nd edition (great, great book)
Katzung and Trevor's Pharm Review
Microbiology Made Ridiculously Simple

These books are great sources of information and, for the most part, can be read fairly quickly. I would certainly prefer wading through these than trying to figure out some other school's lecture notes. Whatever method you choose to supplement your education, best of luck to you.

 

[daeojkim]

I agree with Dr.Funk. I have some experience in medical school in Australia (u .Syd) to be exact. Their teaching is not bad in the sense that they try to cover all that is necessary. They have a textbook and reading requirement is given, generally their syllabus is poor. American medical schools have more set curriculum with well written syllabus, and of times that's all you need to know to pass the course. Students have better idea what to study for exams and such. In Australia, you are pretty much on your own to explore more. I guess that's how British education system works, more freedom to learn without boundaries of set curriculum.

Anyhow, instead of asking for lecture notes, I would highly recommend getting the books listed by Dr.Funk. If you goal is to be a good doctor, I would not use other school's lecture notes. Most often, those review books are better than lecture notes since they are generally better organized.

Gosh I miss Sydney...

 

[vtucci]

You also might want to pick up Kaplan's books by subject. They have some very comprehensive notes.

 

[rachelthehobbit]

Hey, thanks a lot for the replies =)
I guess it should be said that I go to Uni of a lesser status than Sydney uni... at least you guys have a syllabus, that's something.

The reason I was after lecture notes was that I figured that if I could go through a complete set of notes from a good uni, I could somehow have a medical education that was "complete" in some way. That said, while I'm still looking out for these notes if anyone feels they can sell them to me, I am grateful for the many useful textbook reccommendations.

Thanks for all the advice =)

 

[crazy_cavalier]

There is no way you're going to get notes that are provided by the school. They are protected and are private property that you are not authorized to use.

 

[crazy_cavalier]

Hey, thanks a lot for the replies =)
I guess it should be said that I go to Uni of a lesser status than Sydney uni... at least you guys have a syllabus, that's something.

The reason I was after lecture notes was that I figured that if I could go through a complete set of notes from a good uni, I could somehow have a medical education that was "complete" in some way. That said, while I'm still looking out for these notes if anyone feels they can sell them to me, I am grateful for the many useful textbook reccommendations.

Thanks for all the advice =)

If you are looking to supplement your medical education and make it more complete: What you should do is look into the "Board Review Series" or BRS textbooks. They are companion aides that help prep US medical students for the US medical licensing exam. I find the "USMLE Roadmaps" are also very helpful. You can buy these on Amazon.com and it's not illegal for you to buy these, unlike proprietary lecture notes (which are the private property of the medical schools and you are unauthorized to buy from ANY medical student).

 

[D30417995]

i'm from melb uni and even though ours is also a PBL-based school, i think it's still largely didactic. are you from monash, seeing that you're in a 5-year course?

 

[Chinnychin]

Why don't you just get some text and review books if you want to learn the material-I have said this over and over in my day but why would you want to learn from an uknown profs personal notes (the case in most of our lectures in the US-unless you are from school with a top guy) or learn from a text that has been around for 50 years or something?

I am sure you can do a search but with the following books you can be sure to cover all important concepts of medicine to set a foundation for the rest of your career.
-robbins path
-costanzo physiology
-katzung Pharm Review/(or his regular book if you like texts like me but review is good)
-Lange Micro and Immuno review

Most first year classes like anatomy, histo, biochem, embryo-unless urdoing surgery is not very relevent to the rest of medicine or board exams.

So get those 5 books and do your readings-will take no more time than reading notes and is much more clearly written with nice pictures