Legal/ forensic Psych

[mindfad]

Hello

I was wondering if anyone had any advice or input to add. I am interested in applying to PhD programs in the area of Legal or forensic psych. From my research of the subject the area has become somewhat muddled. I have emailed all the schools I am interested and am not waiting very patiently for the replies....

I would like to obtain this degree primarily to do research and teach but I think doing assessments, providing expert testimony, and or just consultant work could possibly be fun as well.

1. As I understand it Legal Psych PhD - tend to be purely academic, though some offer individualized study programs for clinical skills to do assessments and therapy I assume.


My biggest question here is without the clinical cross training how is this degree different from a PhD in Criminal Justice or Criminology?

2. It is possible to do a JD/ PHD in clinical or legal psych.

I am confused on the point of this combination, almost all the programs I am interested in allow the taking of law school courses or the option to do a Masters of Legal Studies (M.L.S.). Does anyone know why a J.D./ Phd combo would be more advantageous?

3. The final option for this field is to go the clinical psych route with a emphasis in forensic.

I am the least thrilled my this option, while not going this route I believe is somewhat limiting as the research topics and practicum sites are going to always be forensic in nature. I am currently in a M.S.W. program and am completely not interested in doing therapy anymore. I will do more training in it if need be but I dont enjoy it like i thought i would and would like to avoid it if possible.

I couldn't find a thread that addressed the pro or cons on this topic. I had planned on applying to the whole array of programs but I dont think it would hurt to understand more about each path.

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[AcronymAllergy]

The majority of forensic psychologists are clinical psychologists who've specialized in forensic work. As best I know, expert witness who aren't clinical psychologists generally tend to be called on in somewhat circumscribed situations (e.g., a cognitive psychologist testifying about eyewitness memory). If a program offers a degree in "forensic psychology" or "legal psychology," it may or may not be licensable, and most likely isn't APA-accredited. The greatest amount of flexibility is afforded by the clinical psych degree, given that if you aren't licensed, you generally won't be working with clients/patients in any sort of applied sense. You could conduct research projects, but you won't be assessing for the sake of competency, testimony, etc.

As for JD/PhD programs, I believe there are a handful, although it obviously isn't necessary to have a JD in order to focus on forensic work. The JD increases your familiarity with the inner workings of the legal system, and may allow you to be a better witness in that respect.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

If you want to be an expert about forensic matters as it relates to psychological topic areas, you will need to pursue doctoral training as a clinical psychologist. You should be aware that there are some programs that purport to be 'forensic psychology programs', though it is my understanding none of them are APA-acred programs. The typical sticking point is not providing enough generalist training, as they specialize from day one, which in my opinion is a mistake.

As AA noted, forensic psychology is a sub-specialty within clinical psychology, which is why the training at 'forensic psychology' programs is often viewed as too narrow. The field of forensic psychology was born from clinical psychologists (with generalist training) who later moved into forensic work.

The best path, as I understand it, is to first receive solid generalist training, because you are a clinical psychologist first and a forensic person next. I like to make the comparison to our colleagues in medicine, where they are considered a physician first, and then they pursue specialized training during their residency years. Some less reputable programs will shill for MA/MS degrees in "Forensic Psychology", which is like promoting classes in Surgery before training you as a physician. Be wary of any program that does this, as it can even happen at legitimate universities.

You should check out the APA division for Forensic Psychology. They have a listserv and many of the top forensic psychologists belong to the division.

 

[cara susanna]

I know a lot of forensic psychologists and they all have their Clinical PhD. If you go the latter route, I recommend looking into the University of North Dakota. They have a forensic Masters and Clinical PhD program with a lot of faculty who have forensic research interests. There are also forensic practicum opportunities.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I know a lot of forensic psychologists and they all have their Clinical PhD. If you go the latter route, I recommend looking into the University of North Dakota. They have a forensic Masters and Clinical PhD program with a lot of faculty who have forensic research interests. There are also forensic practicum opportunities.

UND seems to get a lot of love on this forum, though I think it is warranted. I know at least two (senior-level) people who trained there, and they are definitely top-notch researchers and clinicians.

 

[cara susanna]

Well, I think the department has its strengths and weaknesses as they all do. But forensic psych is definitely a strength. 😉

 

[psychgeek]

I would agree with the posters above if you want to be a forensic clinical psychologist, but not if you want an academic career in psychology and law. Jury consultants do not have to be clinical psychologists, and a background in social psych is a closer fit to the subject area. I think most of the really big researchers in forensic psychology are social/cog psychologists as well (Vidmar, Loftus, and Kassin for example).

 

[AlaskanJustin]

Am at Fordham U in a clinical psych PhD in the Forensic Track, and I have been through this and researched the angles.

Hello

I would like to obtain this degree primarily to do research and teach but I think doing assessments, providing expert testimony, and or just consultant work could possibly be fun as well.

Ph.D.s are research degrees as much as that might not always pan itself out, a Ph.D in clinical psychology is a research and clinical degree and more often than not you will get more love for being more research focused. As part of externship you would get training doing those things (not the testimony but definitely assessment and/or treatment). You would also get training in non-forensic areas as well.

As a side note, "consulting" IS NOT a thing that is trained, nor is there an accreditation agency for forensic consultants... you can have a degree in finger painting and consult... Though, if you want a solid read on legit forensic consulting on issues such as change of venue, jury selection (voir dire) etc then I would recommend Stanley Brodsky's book on trial consultation, a very solid academic approach to that field.

1. As I understand it Legal Psych PhD - tend to be purely academic, though some offer individualized study programs for clinical skills to do assessments and therapy I assume.

Hm... "legal" psych and "forensic" psych are synonymous terms. There actually is no such thing as a Legal or Law Psych Ph.D. There are degrees in clinical psychology with emphasis in psych/law or forensic (same thing), social psychology degrees with emphasis in issues pertaining to the legal system (i.e., jury research) and every once in a while you get weird names that are synonymous entities like John Jays Experimental Forensic Psychology Degree (which basically IS a social psych degree... all their graduates go into social psych positions anyways).

My biggest question here is without the clinical cross training how is this degree different from a PhD in Criminal Justice or Criminology?

A degree in criminology is just that, "the study of crime" (you know, from Latin crīmen, "accusation"; and Greek -λογία, -logia "study of"). They tend to worry LESS about the psycholegal issues and more about patterns of criminal behavior etc. Forensic psychology is NOT just criminal, remember we have a civil legal system too... and most states ALSO have mental health courts that function as tertiary to the other two.

2. It is possible to do a JD/ PHD in clinical or legal psych.

yes. Easiest way is to get into a pre-established joint program like Arizona, UIC, Nebraska etc. However it is ALSO possible to get into a Clinical Ph.D. program at a Uni that also has a law school and negotiate your own JD Ph.D training... Or if you get into the law school, try and get into the clinical (although this latter route is harder). Typically BOTH programs will be happy to work something out.

I am confused on the point of this combination, almost all the programs I am interested in allow the taking of law school courses or the option to do a Masters of Legal Studies (M.L.S.). Does anyone know why a J.D./ Phd combo would be more advantageous?

The MLS such as that at Nebraska serves to BETTER inform you of the legal side of psycholegal issues... because remember the scientific method and the legal method (aka philosophical/logical method) function very different from each other. In an MLS you will take crude basics like Torts, Contracts, Lible etc... and then other psych and law based classes. Fordham for instance, allows us to take Psych and Civil Law, Psych and Criminal Law, Forensic Assessment, and Juvenile Justice, all affiliated with the law school (and cotaught).

On the other hand... people that get the JD/Ph.D tend to be MORE concerned with POLICY. Typically they do more legal practice than psych practice... they prefer to try and influence mental health law reform, advocates for the lack of a better term. Just remember, the JD makes you primed to work IN THE LEGAL SYSTEM assisting the psych(ology and iatry) as opposed to working in the psychology system assisting the legal system.

3. The final option for this field is to go the clinical psych route with a emphasis in forensic.

I am the least thrilled my this option, while not going this route I believe is somewhat limiting as the research topics and practicum sites are going to always be forensic in nature. I am currently in a M.S.W. program and am completely not interested in doing therapy anymore. I will do more training in it if need be but I dont enjoy it like i thought i would and would like to avoid it if possible.

Actually, it sounds like this IS the option you want? We are not limited at all... in fact I think forensics is pervasive IN ALL AREAS of psychology (hence why the APA code of ethics has special sections on it for ALL psychologists). Im in a forensic psychiatric center doing testing this year, next year I will do outpatient/inpatient treatment at a medical center (not remotely affiliated with forensics). I also do neuropsych research not affiliated with forensics either.

Now I think you have to think hard... because an MSW means you are doing social work type therapy which I understand is MUCH different than the therapy a psychologist does (some of our sites also have social work involved and apparently the training is very different).

If you go research only, there will be no testing, its unethical and in some cases illegal. If you do clinical PhD you will get that training PLUS as much research as you want.

I started a list about two years ago listing all the clinical programs that either have tracks in forensic OR have faculty doing forensic work. I would check that out.