Masters in Forensic Psych or MSW

[Epak333]

Hi all,

As someone interested in forensic psych who's pretty dead set on getting their doctorate, I'm just curious what an M.S. in forensic psychology or an being an LCSW would allow you to do in the realm of forensic psychology (i.e., what sorts of jobs you would be able to get)?

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[PsychedUp313]

With an MA or MS in forensic psychology you could be a master's level clinician providing therapy services to forensic populations. For instance, the BOP hires master level therapists to run groups and provide individual therapy etc. If you're interested in assessment and conducting forensic evaluations you will need to get your doctorate.

 

[Unsalted Coast]

In my experience ( I have a masters in forensic psychology) you really can't do much with an MA/MS in Forensic Psychology. At least in my state, my degree did not meet the state licensing requirements for a master's level therapist (LPC). If I could go back, I would have just applied directly to a doctoral program and not wasted my time and money getting that degree.

 

[Epak333]

With an MA or MS in forensic psychology you could be a master's level clinician providing therapy services to forensic populations. For instance, the BOP hires master level therapists to run groups and provide individual therapy etc. If you're interested in assessment and conducting forensic evaluations you will need to get your doctorate.

So essentially the forensic psychologist would assess inmates, offenders, or other members of the forensic population and then send them to a master's level clinician for actual therapy? I think assessments/evals would be interesting but I am more-so interested in interviewing/working with individuals to develop a therapy plan that works for them (especially working with the wrongfully convicted). Just curious if this would be achievable through a master's or if it makes more sense to get my doctorate. Obviously the doctorate opens up way more job opportunities in the long run. And what's the difference between what a master's in forensic psych versus an MSW can do?

 

[Epak333]

In my experience ( I have a masters in forensic psychology) you really can't do much with an MA/MS in Forensic Psychology. At least in my state, my degree did not meet the state licensing requirements for a master's level therapist (LPC). If I could go back, I would have just applied directly to a doctoral program and not wasted my time and money getting that degree.

Makes sense, plus most doctorate programs give you a masters anyway. I think it makes more sense for me to just get the doctorate (what I had planned to do all long) but I was just toying with the idea of masters programs. I guess I'm just feeling a bit daunted by doctorate programs right now!

 

[Dazen]

For clarification, while you do get a masters while in a PhD program, it’s not generally a license-eligible degree, so you wouldn’t be able to independently practice if you left a doctoral program early. If your primary goal is to provide therapy, I’d recommend a more general masters program if you decide to go that route (there’s a bunch of threads here comparing the different types of programs). Even if you want to work in a forensic setting, your primary goal is to be a competent therapist first. You’ll be able to apply those skills anywhere, including correctional facilities, while the Forensic masters will pigeonhole you a bit, even if it does lead to licensure.

 

[Epak333]

For clarification, while you do get a masters while in a PhD program, it’s not generally a license-eligible degree, so you wouldn’t be able to independently practice if you left a doctoral program early. If your primary goal is to provide therapy, I’d recommend a more general masters program if you decide to go that route (there’s a bunch of threads here comparing the different types of programs). Even if you want to work in a forensic setting, your primary goal is to be a competent therapist first. You’ll be able to apply those skills anywhere, including correctional facilities, while the Forensic masters will pigeonhole you a bit, even if it does lead to licensure.

Got it, I've only considered doctoral programs. Now I'm torn because I don't want to waste all that money/time on a doctorate if I don't need it, but I also don't want to limit myself by only getting a masters and then having to go back to school down the road.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

Forensic psychology is the application of psychological science to very specific and circumscribed psycho-legal issues. Get trained as a psychologist (not in one of the garbage programs). Pursue forensic evaluation specific training on practicum. Match to an internship that will further this training. Then procure a fellowship approved by the American board of forensic psychology. A master's is just an expensive piece of paper that sounds good to people who don't know any better.

 

[ClinicalABA]

Masters in psychology are not typically geared towards preparing therapists/clinicians, thus are unlikely to qualify you for a master's level license (and thus you wouldn't be able to provide therapy in pretty much any setting). Master's level therapists typically have degrees from social work or mental health counseling programs.

... (especially working with the wrongfully convicted)...

Just curious- how are you defining this population? I you are talking about individuals with overturned convictions, that's likely a VERY small population in all but the largest cities. If you are talking about individuals who have been convicted/incarcerated, how is it determined that is has been done wrongfully? See the difficulties there- it's a very tough population to identify accurately and- when done so- too small to really be a specialty population for a viable practice, particularly as a newcomer to the field. You should really do some homework on this population and what is done for them before you commit any time or resources into a program with the goal of working with said population.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I did some contract work at a jail and all the inmates were innocent. 😏 it was always shocking if one said that they weren’t there because law enforcement was hassling them for no reason.
I am pretty sure that all the inmates at the state penitentiary are wrongfully convicted too. It’s kind of a running joke in there.

 

[WisNeuro]

I did some contract work at a jail and all the inmates were innocent. 😏 it was always shocking if one said that they weren’t there because law enforcement was hassling them for no reason.
I am pretty sure that all the inmates at the state penitentiary are wrongfully convicted too. It’s kind of a running joke in there.

Maybe they can band together and help OJ find the "real killers."

 

[Epak333]

Masters in psychology are not typically geared towards preparing therapists/clinicians, thus are unlikely to qualify you for a master's level license (and thus you wouldn't be able to provide therapy in pretty much any setting). Master's level therapists typically have degrees from social work or mental health counseling programs.

Just curious- how are you defining this population? I you are talking about individuals with overturned convictions, that's likely a VERY small population in all but the largest cities. If you are talking about individuals who have been convicted/incarcerated, how is it determined that is has been done wrongfully? See the difficulties there- it's a very tough population to identify accurately and- when done so- too small to really be a specialty population for a viable practice, particularly as a newcomer to the field. You should really do some homework on this population and what is done for them before you commit any time or resources into a program with the goal of working with said population.

I'm talking about people who have been exonerated/working with the Innocence Project. That's not gonna be primarily what I want to do, I mostly want to be in the prison working with inmates who have done violent crimes. Obviously it's a very small population but if there's a chance for me to work with them, I would want to do that.

 

[Epak333]

I did some contract work at a jail and all the inmates were innocent. 😏 it was always shocking if one said that they weren’t there because law enforcement was hassling them for no reason.
I am pretty sure that all the inmates at the state penitentiary are wrongfully convicted too. It’s kind of a running joke in there.

Lol I mean those who have been proven innocent and exonerated, small population but would like to work with them some if I could

 

[Epak333]

Forensic psychology is the application of psychological science to very specific and circumscribed psycho-legal issues. Get trained as a psychologist (not in one of the garbage programs). Pursue forensic evaluation specific training on practicum. Match to an internship that will further this training. Then procure a fellowship approved by the American board of forensic psychology. A master's is just an expensive piece of paper that sounds good to people who don't know any better.

Right, plus if I can find funded doctorates that would be nice too!

 

[ClinicalABA]

I'm talking about people who have been exonerated/working with the Innocence Project. That's not gonna be primarily what I want to do, I mostly want to be in the prison working with inmates who have done violent crimes. Obviously it's a very small population but if there's a chance for me to work with them, I would want to do that.

That's cool. Best of luck.

 

[Epak333]

That's cool. Best of luck.

Thanks! I appreciate it

 

[ClinicalABA]

I'm talking about people who have been exonerated/working with the Innocence Project. That's not gonna be primarily what I want to do, I mostly want to be in the prison working with inmates who have done violent crimes. Obviously it's a very small population but if there's a chance for me to work with them, I would want to do that.

Looking at the Innocence Project website, they refer to their support services as the "Social Work Team," and largely describe (the incredibly important and difficult) work of social workers. Social work is primarily a masters level field and the work they do with the Innocence Project might not be covered in your typical psych grad program, so be sure to look into that.

 

[Epak333]

Looking at the Innocence Project website, they refer to their support services as the "Social Work Team," and largely describe (the incredibly important and difficult) work of social workers. Social work is primarily a masters level field and the work they do with the Innocence Project might not be covered in your typical psych grad program, so be sure to look into that.

So I likely wouldn't be able to work with them as a licensed psychologist? Even for consulting?

 

[psych.meout]

So I likely wouldn't be able to work with them as a licensed psychologist? Even for consulting?

Consulting for what purpose?

 

[ClinicalABA]

So I likely wouldn't be able to work with them as a licensed psychologist? Even for consulting?

I don't know! Look at the website and the services they offer (and jobs they are hiring for)- I'm not seeing any mention of psychologists specifically. They identify as primarily a "litigation and public policy organization". They obviously do a lot of legal work, and also reference the Social Work Team. Looking at their staff roster, there's a handful of social workers, but no psychologist. I'm not seeing anywhere where they mention therapy or psych consultation specifically. It's a possibility that psychologists are involved at some level. Contact them (maybe the Director of Social Work) and ask. Most people in this line of work are willing to discuss what they do with eager young folks looking get involved (though are often overworked and busy). Worst case scenario is they don't return your calls or email.

 

[Epak333]

I don't know! Look at the website and the services they offer (and jobs they are hiring for)- I'm not seeing any mention of psychologists specifically. They identify as primarily a "litigation and public policy organization". They obviously do a lot of legal work, and also reference the Social Work Team. Looking at their staff roster, there's a handful of social workers, but no psychologist. I'm not seeing anywhere where they mention therapy or psych consultation specifically. It's a possibility that psychologists are involved at some level. Contact them (maybe the Director of Social Work) and ask. Most people in this line of work are willing to discuss what they do with eager young folks looking get involved (though are often overworked and busy). Worst case scenario is they don't return your calls or email.

Ah okay, I'll contact them. Thanks for letting me know! I know they do a lot of policy/advocacy work. Maybe therapy for that population would not necessarily be through them, but they could put me in contact with orgs who handle the therapy aspect. One of the other things I might possibly wanna do is work for/consult with the FBI, I know they use psychologists a lot

 

[psych.meout]

One of the other things I might possibly wanna do is work for/consult with the FBI, I know they use psychologists a lot

Are you alluding to profiling? That's pseudoscience.

 

[ClinicalABA]

Ah okay, I'll contact them. Thanks for letting me know! I know they do a lot of policy/advocacy work. Maybe therapy for that population would not necessarily be through them, but they could put me in contact with orgs who handle the therapy aspect. One of the other things I might possibly wanna do is work for/consult with the FBI, I know they use psychologists a lot

FBI is a whole other story. The use of psychologists (and other specialist, for that matter) in FBI/CIA/CSI work is very much misrepresented in popular culture. What you see one person doing in a typical crime show/movie is usually an amalgamation of the work of multiple people, with the drudgery and tediousness edited out. The thing they do get right is that all of us psychologists are very beautiful, super-fit, and have perfect teeth and hair. Other than that, it's pure fiction.

I think you have some nice goals of providing therapy with criminal offenders. That's easily and most efficiently done by pursuing and masters in social work or counseling. The doctoral route would take a lot longer and potentially be much more expensive, but would give you some more options for assessment, supervision, teaching, and research. If you're not really interested in those things, doctoral degree is likely overkill.

 

[Epak333]

FBI is a whole other story. The use of psychologists (and other specialist, for that matter) in FBI/CIA/CSI work is very much misrepresented in popular culture. What you see one person doing in a typical crime show/movie is usually an amalgamation of the work of multiple people, with the drudgery and tediousness edited out. The thing they do get right is that all of us psychologists are very beautiful, super-fit, and have perfect teeth and hair. Other than that, it's pure fiction.

I think you have some nice goals of providing therapy with criminal offenders. That's easily and most efficiently done by pursuing and masters in social work or counseling. The doctoral route would take a lot longer and potentially be much more expensive, but would give you some more options for assessment, supervision, teaching, and research. If you're not really interested in those things, doctoral degree is likely overkill.

Yes haha I know crime shows aren't accurate but I know the FBI does consult with psychologists in some capacity, something I'm sure I wouldn't be able to do until after I became established in the field. I'm definitely not interested in teaching or research, probably assessment and therapy more than anything, but I know the Federal Bureau of Prisons is looking for licensed clinical psychologists, so I would need a doctorate for that. All in all, I think the doctorate makes more sense in the long run and will open me up to more job opportunities. I would probably be happy with a job I could get with a masters, but I would hate to find a job that I really want down the road that requires a doctorate.

 

[smalltownpsych]

The doctorate and licensing as a psychologist does provide the most flexibility in career options which is a big part of why I chose this path because I wasn’t able to narrow my future interests very well after undergrad. I just knew I was very interested in almost all things psychology. Also, don’t discount the fact that the research you are involved in is part of that opening doors and choosing your path along with the clinical experiences. A reputable funded and balanced Clinical PhD program is going to help you figure that all out.

 

[Epak333]

The doctorate and licensing as a psychologist does provide the most flexibility in career options which is a big part of why I chose this path because I wasn’t able to narrow my future interests very well after undergrad. I just knew I was very interested in almost all things psychology. Also, don’t discount the fact that the research you are involved in is part of that opening doors and choosing your path along with the clinical experiences. A reputable funded and balanced Clinical PhD program is going to help you figure that all out.

All very true, I know I'm smart and hard working enough to be involved in a heavy research program (sorry if that comes off kinda braggy idk how else to word it lol), I just don't think I would necessarily enjoy it. But then again it's only for 5-6 years, so I'm sure it would be worth it.