Legislation in works to increase buprenorphine limit substantially

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Hello all there is legislation in the works to significantly increase the buprenorphine limit for waivered prescribers. The major components of the bill are

1) Allow Addiction-certified docs (certified in Addiction by ABPN, certified by ASAM or ABAM, and certified Osteopathic Addiction Medicine organization) to have UNLIMITED rights to prescribe buprenorphine after having the waiver for at least one year.

2) Allow NPs and PAs to prescribe buprenorphine to 100 patients under the supervision of an Addiction-certified doctor

3) Certain "qualified practice settings" would also allow waivered non-Addiction certified docs to have unlimited prescribing rights (VA, community health centers, etc.) which are monitored.

Here are links to the legislation:

http://www.markey.senate.gov/news/p...nt-for-heroin-and-prescription-drug-addiction (summary)

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/s2645/text/is (actual bill)

http://www.markey.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/2014-07-23_TREATAct_1_PAGER.pdf (summary of bill)

Let me know your thoughts on this potential game changing legislation.
 
Hello all there is legislation in the works to significantly increase the buprenorphine limit for waivered prescribers. The major components of the bill are

1) Allow Addiction-certified docs (certified in Addiction by ABPN, certified by ASAM or ABAM, and certified Osteopathic Addiction Medicine organization) to have UNLIMITED rights to prescribe buprenorphine after having the waiver for at least one year.

2) Allow NPs and PAs to prescribe buprenorphine to 100 patients under the supervision of an Addiction-certified doctor

3) Certain "qualified practice settings" would also allow waivered non-Addiction certified docs to have unlimited prescribing rights (VA, community health centers, etc.) which are monitored.

Here are links to the legislation:

http://www.markey.senate.gov/news/p...nt-for-heroin-and-prescription-drug-addiction (summary)

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/s2645/text/is (actual bill)

http://www.markey.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/2014-07-23_TREATAct_1_PAGER.pdf (summary of bill)

Let me know your thoughts on this potential game changing legislation.

There is already a way tons of sub prescribers are going way over the 100- write 100 for opiate use d/o and then write the rest for murkier cases(where it isn't clear cut op use d/o and no physical comorbidities) for pain....I know people treating 2-300 pts per month with subs this way....and nobody is coming after these people(at least not yet)....one just got inspected last month and said things went fine.
 
There is already a way tons of sub prescribers are going way over the 100- write 100 for opiate use d/o and then write the rest for murkier cases(where it isn't clear cut op use d/o and no physical comorbidities) for pain....I know people treating 2-300 pts per month with subs this way....and nobody is coming after these people(at least not yet)....one just got inspected last month and said things went fine.

You've got to pay off those loans, man. I feel like there's lots of borderline shadiness in the buprenorphine prescribing world.
 
Don't know what to say because there are a lot of people selling their buprenorphine. I've noticed some patients figure out how to wean themselves either off of it or lower their dosage significantly, have extra at the end of the month, then sell it off.

The med works, and works well, but there is room for a very educated person to figure out how to abuse it in terms of selling it. Unfortunately there are buprenorphine forums educating patients on how to do just that.

Some docs are complete idiots when it comes to giving out buprenorphine. Others are too vigilant. I don't know if moving where the line is with # of patients will make things better or worse.
 
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I think that many (or most) physicians miss the big picture: buprenorphine, no matter how it is decorated or modified (eg, Suboxone), is a mu receptor opioid agonist and must be treated as such. Suboxone (not just buprenorphine) can result in euphoria, analgesia, use in a pathological manner, black market/street value, respiratory depression leading to death (all of which occur/have occurred)- from my experience, the effect varies from user to user. To think otherwise creates misunderstanding and thus misuse in treatment.

In opioid addiction treatment, beyond the initial detoxification phase, I think that Suboxone can be very effectively utilized, provided that the prescriber keeps in mind that again, ultimately, it is an agonist. Therefore in an ideal situation, I see its use best applied as a "reward" to the patient for engaging in 12 Step Recovery (along with other motivators)- working and living the program of Recovery. Sometime down the road (different for each patient, cannot be a protocol), tapering and ultimate cessation can begin, though the drawback is that going from .5mg to nothing seems to be a miserable experience, anecdotally at least. And of course, maintenance treatment might not even be necessary for some patients, provided they get properly 12th stepped out of a detox or respond appropriately to residential/outpatient treatment.

Of course, the physician must concede that some patients, who refuse to engage in any lifestyle modification, must be kept on Suboxone for the purposes of harm reduction, which is ultimately the physician's failure to appropriately treat addiction (meaning, failure to motivate the patient to accept a life of Recovery). Nevertheless, the benefits of harm reduction should not be trivialized, should a physician be reduced to using Suboxone in such a manner.

By the way, during my fourth year of medical school, I went to an Addiction Medicine conference and learned that even as a medical student, I could take a free, 8 hour course (that according to the Reckitt Benckiser drug reps really takes 2 hours) and become certified... I am debating whether to do this now that I am a resident...
 
which is ultimately the physician's failure to appropriately treat addiction

Spoken as if a physician has a 100% chance and responsibility of convincing a patient to get off of buprenorphine appropriately. Patients too have a responsibility. Several patients don't want to get off of it even if they are not abusing it. In effect the patient has become psychologically-addicted to the medication, fearing if they do not take it they will relapse.

One could argue then this is not treatment success. I'd argue it is improvement and that is better than not treating. I've had several patients get on dosages of buprenorphine, then their dosage is reduced over time as it should be, but then the patient is only on a small dosage, say up to 8 mg a day, and they still don't want to get off of it. I'm convinced they're not selling it because some of them were only on 1 mg a day, and all tests were negative for street drugs but (+) for buprenorphine. At 1 mg a day, a patient would be losing money if selling all of their supply.

So then the argument becomes, why not just convince them to stop taking it? I got a guy that I've been trying to do that for two years. Only reason why I don't have him anymore is because I moved out of Cincinnati to St. Louis. The guy was a good guy. If you ever got him off of it his fear of relapsing was so strong that it became true. And yes I tried every option I could think of including Revia or oral Naltrexone, NA, CBT, etc. So I was stuck in a position of reduce his harm, I knew he was not abusing it, and try to break his psychological addiction--and haven't succeeded.

I've almost never had a patient be successful on buprenorphine treatment if they were getting it because their friends or family made them and they were doing it under duress. Ultimately the patient has to want to get better.
 
Spoken as if a physician has a 100% chance and responsibility of convincing a patient to get off of buprenorphine appropriately. Patients too have a responsibility. Several patients don't want to get off of it even if they are not abusing it. In effect the patient has become psychologically-addicted to the medication, fearing if they do not take it they will relapse.

One could argue then this is not treatment success. I'd argue it is improvement and that is better than not treating. I've had several patients get on dosages of buprenorphine, then their dosage is reduced over time as it should be, but then the patient is only on a small dosage, say up to 8 mg a day, and they still don't want to get off of it. I'm convinced they're not selling it because some of them were only on 1 mg a day, and all tests were negative for street drugs but (+) for buprenorphine. At 1 mg a day, a patient would be losing money if selling all of their supply.

So then the argument becomes, why not just convince them to stop taking it? I got a guy that I've been trying to do that for two years. Only reason why I don't have him anymore is because I moved out of Cincinnati to St. Louis. The guy was a good guy. If you ever got him off of it his fear of relapsing was so strong that it became true. And yes I tried every option I could think of including Revia or oral Naltrexone, NA, CBT, etc. So I was stuck in a position of reduce his harm, I knew he was not abusing it, and try to break his psychological addiction--and haven't succeeded.

I've almost never had a patient be successful on buprenorphine treatment if they were getting it because their friends or family made them and they were doing it under duress. Ultimately the patient has to want to get better.

Your post reinforces my points. In an ideal setting, use of buprenorphine would end with detoxification; but that is not reality. Of course some patients are going to like suboxone and not want to get off of it; it is ultimately a mu agonist. Centrally acting mu agonists have an addiction liability... That is why ideally, it should be used as a reward for patients making strides in actual Recovery. As the patient works the 12 Step Program and his/her life gets better, eventually discussions on tapering can happen. Again, it is a patient by patient management issue. As such, harm reduction is really a concession; the physician has failed in "breaking down the patient's inner resistance so that which is inside him will flower, as under the activity of the A.A. program" (guess who said that) and settles for the patient continuing to use suboxone as a crutch rather than whatever his/her favorite opioid is. The point is that maintenance therapy for the purpose of harm reduction is NOT treating addiction, though it is often the best a physician can do with a certain patient.

Like the rest of psychiatry, addiction treatment will truly undergo a revolution when we become more refined in our understanding of the neural networks involved in Recovery. Plasticity!
 
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Your post reinforces my points. In an ideal setting, use of buprenorphine would end with detoxification; but that is not reality. Of course some patients are going to like suboxone and not want to get off of it; it is ultimately a mu agonist. Centrally acting mu agonists have an addiction liability... That is why ideally, it should be used as a reward for patients making strides in actual Recovery. As the patient works the 12 Step Program and his/her life gets better, eventually discussions on tapering can happen. Again, it is a patient by patient management issue. As such, harm reduction is really a concession; the physician has failed in "breaking down the patient's inner resistance so that which is inside him will flower, as under the activity of the A.A. program" (guess who said that) and settles for the patient continuing to use suboxone as a crutch rather than whatever his/her favorite opioid is. The point is that maintenance therapy for the purpose of harm reduction is NOT treating addiction, though it is often the best a physician can do with a certain patient.

Like the rest of psychiatry, addiction treatment will truly undergo a revolution when we become more refined in our understanding of the neural networks involved in Recovery. Plasticity!

Current evidence supports maintaining a patient with Opioid Use Disorder on buprenorphine indefinitely to promote long term recovery unless a patient desires to be opioid free and in those cases would strongly recommend transitioning to naltrexone IM. And, of course, behavioral therapy should be offered in combination with medication-assisted treatment.
 
Current evidence supports maintaining a patient with Opioid Use Disorder on buprenorphine indefinitely to promote long term recovery unless a patient desires to be opioid free and in those cases would strongly recommend transitioning to naltrexone IM. And, of course, behavioral therapy should be offered in combination with medication-assisted treatment.

This post highlights exactly why psychiatry continues to FAIL at treating addiction. Suboxone does not promote Recovery; it promotes abstinence from other opioids. Recovery is a mental, physical, and spiritual process one undergoes in order to be freed from an otherwise hopeless state of mind and body. Abstinence from other opioids through solely being maintained on a safer mu agonist is NOT Recovery; it is harm reduction. When the physician prescribes Suboxone with such intent, the patient is still physically and psychologically dependent on a mu opioid agonist and is thus being denied the beauty and freedom of a life that is the product of the vital spiritual experience that so many have when they work the 12 Steps. Since its incipiency, or at least since Kraeplin/Bleuler, psychiatry has been obsessed with nosology of pathological variants in the brain. Why must we exclude the positive changes the brain undergoes from our vernacular? Labeling a patient has having "opioid use disorder in full sustained remission" sounds patronizing and offensive, and for the patients who truly Recover, it hardly means anything. For the ones to whom it applies, why can't "addict in Recovery" be an official term? The ones who are successful use and EMBRACE that term on a daily basis. Why can't we as psychiatrists?

And any time anyone from the addiction field gives a long presentation about the "newest" pharmacotherapeutics and includes 1 line/1 slide about "of course needs to be accompanied by CBT/behavioral/whatever" (most of the time avoiding mention of 12 Step Programs), I cringe because this is obviously a charade to distance oneself from the "big pharma pill pusher" persona that plagues psychiatry. Actually, and this is probably most applicable to alcoholism, I would venture to say that a typical psychiatrist, though certainly well intentioned, would much prefer to prescribe naltrexone+whatever antidepressant and have the patient report that he/she is drinking less and his her mood is "better" than for a patient to truly embrace and thrive under the 12 Step Program. Superficially, the psychiatrist gets reliably paid for the former. On a deeper level, the psychiatrist establishes control and identity; he or she is the physician, using "evidence-based practice" (whatever validity that has- look at the conflicts of interest section in any of the topiramate/addiction literature) and is using his/her medical skill to be the sole provider (Ok, joint if the person goes to a therapist) to "treat" the patient's disease.

The overall point is that alcoholics and addicts ultimately do not need more drugs; they need to learn how to live life. They need to be surrounded by others in Recovery (with some exceptions, though anyone can Recover through honestly and thoroughly working the 12 Steps). They need a focused program of discipline and structure. This is the 12 Step Program and Fellowship. Our job is to get them there. But again, we do not know enough about the neurobiology of Recovery and how the brain heals to create a reliable and systematic method of getting patients to that point. And even then the experience itself is entirely individual. Will the biology (the epigenetics, for addiction seems to be the prototype CNS disease model for epigenetics) be completely understood in my lifetime? I certainly hope so, but who knows. At a conference several years ago, I had a great discussion with the medical director of nationally renowned treatment center, 12-Step in philosophy, that is particularly noted for treating impaired physicians and other professionals. He admitted to me that most of what they do is guess work and based off of years of experience of what works/doesn't work in patients. But this uncertainty is, in part, what makes this the most interesting, exciting, and probably difficult field in all of psychiatry- and probably all of medicine as well.
 
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Recovery is a mental, physical, and spiritual process one undergoes in order to be freed from an otherwise hopeless state of mind and body.

No offense Harry, but your posts are outside a reality that happens in clinical settings for many patients. I agree with that patients should aim for the getting off of Suboxone, but as was mentioned above, the evidence doesn't support making people get off of it. My own treatment approach used to be closer to your opinions years ago but the reality I was seeing, and not seeing any evidence to back it up either made me change my views in light of the facts. Further, doctors have very limited ability in making our patients "spiritually" recover. While I would hope that a patient's recovery is on that level and that I could help with that, it's not like I can start preaching to my patients in a manner that really is outside my boundaries that ultimately could harm a treatment relationship especially if this is not the approach the patient wants.

As for your passionate support for 12-step programs, the evidence doesn't strongly support them either.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16856072

Some studies show some benefits with AA, and other 12 steps, others don't, but even in regards to the studies showing it has benefits, it's not an overwhelming convincing argument in the sense that your post makes it out to be. It does work for some, but only some.

I've seen patients do very well with 12-step programs. I've seen others not do so well. My own approach to patients is if it works for them, go for it. If not, then don't blame yourself if you made an honest attempt and don't think you cannot succeed because it didn't work. It's not for everyone. The data doesn't support it is for everyone.
 
No offense Harry, but your posts are outside a reality that happens in clinical settings for many patients. I agree with that patients should aim for the getting off of Suboxone, but as was mentioned above, the evidence doesn't support making people get off of it. My own treatment approach used to be closer to your opinions years ago but the reality I was seeing, and not seeing any evidence to back it up either made me change my views in light of the facts. Further, doctors have very limited ability in making our patients "spiritually" recover. While I would hope that a patient's recovery is on that level and that I could help with that, it's not like I can start preaching to my patients in a manner that really is outside my boundaries that ultimately could harm a treatment relationship especially if this is not the approach the patient wants.

As for your passionate support for 12-step programs, the evidence doesn't strongly support them either.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16856072

Some studies show some benefits with AA, and other 12 steps, others don't, but even in regards to the studies showing it has benefits, it's not an overwhelming convincing argument in the sense that your post makes it out to be. It does work for some, but only some.

I've seen patients do very well with 12-step programs. I've seen others not do so well. My own approach to patients is if it works for them, go for it. If not, then don't blame yourself if you made an honest attempt and don't think you cannot succeed because it didn't work. It's not for everyone. The data doesn't support it is for everyone.

The first part of what is written above definitely holds true and is a source of frustration for our field, but what that means to me is that we need to work harder, from the basic sciences to clinical practice in order to address America's number one public health problem.

However, I have much disdain for psychiatrists' dismissal of 12 Step Programs because "the evidence does not support them." Is a Cochrane review really going to be able to reliably tell us whether AA works or not, in the same way that it can tell us to give aspirin after an MI? Of course not. My Evidence Based Medicine course director from Medical School, who is internationally known both in the EBM circles (ie, in Gordon Guyatt's circle) as well as his primary clinical specialty described SR/MAs as like "bouillabaise"- one bad fish can ruin the entire stew. I would hardly describe clinical trials investigating AA as being of strong methodological quality. I realize that most literature across all disciplines cannot adhere to the strict principles of EBM, but regarding the clinical question of AA effectiveness, I think we can safely ignore what most trials say purely based on methodological quality. I strive to be a practitioner of evidence based medicine, but regarding 12 Step Programs, I think anecdotal evidence is without question the best evidence.

Furthermore, contrary to how studies are designed and what most psychiatrists think, 12 Step Recovery is NOT just about attending meetings. The Program of Recovery, that produces the spiritual experience necessary to overcome alcohol, is the 12 Steps themselves. A person can go to 10 meetings a day, but until he or she works the Steps with a sponsor in an honest and thorough manner, he or she has not Recovered. And living through the principles outlined in the 12 Steps must occur on a daily basis, and slowly, over time, the alcoholic/addict's behavior, attitude, and outlook begin to change, and in talking to people who have been sober for decades, this change 1) takes work, 2) takes time, and 3)is a continuous process. Most studies that I have seen tend to de emphasize actual AA involvement. There is an AA involvement inventory from 1996 (I tried to find the actual paper on PubMed but could not), but beyond that there is not much to actually qualify (or quantify) participation in 12 Step Programs. Plus, most of the success stories remain Anonymous.

One of the most interesting "studies" on AA was conducted by the early members themselves. Just using raw data and their own observations, about 50 % of the early AA members who seriously worked the 12 Steps achieved sobriety, another 25% achieved it after one relapse (and of course reworking the 12 Steps), and even more after a second relapse (and working the Steps). Though this hardly holds up by todays standards, I think it is very telling. Our job as psychiatrists is to 1) Get people motivated to work the 12 Steps (and this is where Suboxone as a reward comes in, among non pharmacologic measures as well) and 2) of the ones who seriously try, prepare the patient to work the Steps so that the success rate is as close to 100% as possible. The actual Harry Tiebout was very clear on this; his writings are most certainly relevant today.

Finally, what I firmly refute is the statement that mental health professionals make consistently: "AA is not for everyone". (My response is, yeah, it's only for true alcoholics/addicts who want to quit and not be miserable) Truthfully, there is no reason why someone cannot succeed in a 12 Step Program. Concerns about spiritual matters? 1/2 of the original membership considered themselves either athiest or agnostic, yet they all had the conversion experience that William James described when they became willing, honest, and open minded. Boundary issues with the opposite sex? Plenty of men's only/women's only meetings. Paranoid schizophrenia? (patient believes everyone in meeting is talking about him/her). Though meeting attendance might not be the best idea, at least initially, the patient can still Recover from alcoholism through working the 12 Steps. And his/her psychiatrist should be the one to encourage this. I can go on and on, but again, as long as patients are willing, honest, and open minded, they can succeed in the 12 Step Program. It is our job as psychiatrists to get them there.
 
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I'm a huge AA proponent myself and I sort of get the feeling in general a lot of the anti-AA sentiment in psych stems from psychologists originally because I get the feeling medicine as a whole is much more pro-AA than psychologists are.

Although I do have a problem with this paragraph which is quite tautological, its basically saying that AA works for the people it works for. Obviously AA works for the people who it works for.

As an analogy take DM2, basically all early cases can be reversed with proper diet and exercise, but that doesn't mean we can say that diet and exercise will reverse it in 100% of patients. So there is no reason for us to not use metformin and insulin just because diet and exercise could hypothetically cure all the early DM2.

Furthermore, contrary to how many studies are designed and what most psychiatrists think, 12 Step Recovery is NOT just about attending meetings. The Program of Recovery, that produces the spiritual experience necessary to overcome alcohol, is the 12 Steps themselves. A person can go to 10 meetings a day, but until he or she works the Steps with a sponsor in an honest and thorough manner, he or she has not Recovered. And living through the principles outlined in the 12 Steps must occur on a daily basis, and slowly, over time, the alcoholic/addict's behavior, attitude, and outlook begin to change, and in talking to people who have been sober for decades, this change 1) takes work, 2) takes time, and 3)is a continuous process.
 
I'm a huge AA proponent myself and I sort of get the feeling in general a lot of the anti-AA sentiment in psych stems from psychologists originally because I get the feeling medicine as a whole is much more pro-AA than psychologists are.

Although I do have a problem with this paragraph which is quite tautological, its basically saying that AA works for the people it works for. Obviously AA works for the people who it works for.

As an analogy take DM2, basically all early cases can be reversed with proper diet and exercise, but that doesn't mean we can say that diet and exercise will reverse it in 100% of patients. So there is no reason for us to not use metformin and insulin just because diet and exercise could hypothetically cure all the early DM2.

The DM analogy is too complex and gets in to a completely different set of issues upon which I do not have the energy to expound right now. Regarding my "circular" reasoning... I agree that it seems obvious, but apparently that is not the case. When people say that they tried AA but it didn't work, it usually means went to meetings without working the Steps, had a sponsor who didn't take them through the steps and just emoted with them, didn't get past the 4th step, ad infinitum. And of course there are people who do the 12 Steps and get involved, have the Vital Spiritual Experience that Carl Jung describes, rebuild their lives and families, put together years of Recovery but then get complacent, quit doing the day to day activities to maintain their spiritual lives, quit going to meetings, and ultimately end up forgetting that they are powerless over alcohol and end up relapsing. And for someone who has not read the Big Book or has a basic understanding of the dictates of the 12 Step Programs (most psychiatrists, unfortunately), this easily creates the message of "AA doesn't work for some people." The program doesn't fail; it works for those who continuously work it. This is why, at the end of meetings, they say "Keep coming back; it works if you work it."
 
What approach do you suggest for patients who flatly refuse to work the 12 steps but who are are still interested in treatment for their addiction? Or for patients who have attempted AA but dropped out and are not interested in trying again? I've seen many patients who want to get better and live better/happier lives and may be interested in abstinence but don't want to touch a Vital Spiritual Experience with a 10-foot pole.
 
. A person can go to 10 meetings a day, but until he or she works the Steps with a sponsor in an honest and thorough manner, he or she has not Recovered. And living through the principles outlined in the 12 Steps must occur on a daily basis, and slowly, over time, the alcoholic/addict's behavior, attitude, and outlook begin to change, and in talking to people who have been sober for decades, this change 1) takes work, 2) takes time, and 3)is a continuous process.

This type of presentation is basically saying it's up to the addicted person to be honest with themselves. This is something that goes outside of measurable science. Outside of the Cochran reviews-and you do bring up a good point, some studies do not measure certain phenomenon well, there isn't any clear and coherent study that clearly proves that 12-step programs are the boon you make them out to be. Again, they do help some people, there's no denying that. I'm speculating it may have benefited you because you seem very passionate and personal about this, more so than anyone I've seen who has studied them in an objective sense.

My own views on 12-step programs, while disagreeing with yours Harry is not against you. Heck I'm telling patients to go to 12-step programs myself.

There's a chapter in Malcom X's biography where he mentioned the Nation of Islam's own programs to fight addiction and I believe his words when he says that adding a spiritual dimension to the treatment leads to more success. While I believe him, he couldn't prove it . Just that when I see anyone taking something very seriously, in a sincere spiritiual and religious manner, I believe they will be more likely to succeed.

Just that it's hard to measure this type of thing. Unless it can be measured, we can't say it's science. If it's not science, we can't go over our own professional boundaries with treatment. If one were to choose to do that, and this would likely be advised against by many in our field, they must draw a line and make it clear to everyone else that in that sense they are not practicing as a physician.

And several of the means the Nation of Islam did, or other spiritual and faith-based methods, are one that go outside of medicine. I'm not supposed to dress in military fatigues, wear a beret and slap around a guy for relapsing while calling him worthless. Yeah, I'm sure this works for some people better than what a physician does, but I'm not allowed to to do that. I'm not being sarcastic either. If some guy with a threatening tone were to beat the crap out of me for relapsing, he knew my address, and was going to check up on me whether I liked it or not, I think I'd think twice about relapsing again.
 
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This type of presentation is basically saying it's up to the addicted person to be honest with themselves. This is something that goes outside of measurable science. Outside of the Cochran reviews-and you do bring up a good point, some studies do not measure certain phenomenon well, there isn't any clear and coherent study that clearly proves that 12-step programs are the boon you make them out to be. Again, they do help some people, there's no denying that. I'm speculating it may have benefited you because you seem very passionate and personal about this, more so than anyone I've seen who has studied them in an objective sense.

My own views on 12-step programs, while disagreeing with yours Harry is not against you. Heck I'm telling patients to go to 12-step programs myself.

There's a chapter in Malcom X's biography where he mentioned the Nation of Islam's own programs to fight addiction and I believe his words when he says that adding a spiritual dimension to the treatment leads to more success. While I believe him, he couldn't prove it . Just that when I see anyone taking something very seriously, in a sincere spiritiual and religious manner, I believe they will be more likely to succeed.

Just that it's hard to measure this type of thing. Unless it can be measured, we can't say it's science. If it's not science, we can't go over our own professional boundaries with treatment. If one were to choose to do that, and this would likely be advised against by many in our field, they must draw a line and make it clear to everyone else that in that sense they are not practicing as a physician.

And several of the means the Nation of Islam did, or other spiritual and faith-based methods, are one that go outside of medicine. I'm not supposed to dress in military fatigues, wear a beret and slap around a guy for relapsing while calling him worthless. Yeah, I'm sure this works for some people better than what a physician does, but I'm not allowed to to do that. I'm not being sarcastic either. If some guy with a threatening tone were to beat the crap out of me for relapsing, he knew my address, and was going to check up on me whether I liked it or not, I think I'd think twice about relapsing again.

Of course it goes outside measurable science, but so does most of psychiatry. But I think basic science research and more sophisticated ways of looking at the brain will be able to elucidate aberrant connections in the corticostriatal networks and furthermore reveal the changes that take place as the brain heals through the Recovery Process. There is much investigative research on the neurobiology of the spiritual experience-there is no question that this phenomenon has a scientific explanation- one that will become increasingly clearer. One of my favorite papers: http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1792140 Why must there remain a parsing between science and spirituality? Having done research with one of the foremost behavioral neurologists in the world, I find it much more intellectually satisfying to know that in pushing the patient to accept the 12 Step Program, I am offering to them a solution that in terms of mechanism, repairs neural networks involving the prefrontal cortex, which makes addiction a distinctly human disease, rather than crudely targets an enzyme in a metabolic pathway or neurotransmitter dysregulation based on murine models, etc (which I don't discount, I just think we need to take a more sophisticated approach).

And my views are largely shaped by one of my mentors from medical school, a nationally known addiction medicine physician who uses the 12 Steps as the core of his approach to treatment. This physician definitely uses pharmacological interventions as appropriate in patients but has instilled in me that the true focus of addiction treatment is for the patient to accept and succeed under the 12 Step Program. Interestingly, my mentor treats impaired physicians from across the country, many of whom are opioid addicts, but because of state monitoring requirements, are not allowed to be on agonist therapy. However, they do quite well; a recent paper looking at monitoring programs across 5 different states showing a 78% 5 year abstinence rate. And for those who do not readily accept the 12 Step Program (by the way, most state monitoring programs mandate meetings and sponsors) the hope is that in the 5 years that the fear of a drug test keeps them from using, they hit an emotional bottom and readily accept the 12 Step Program.

What approach do you suggest for patients who flatly refuse to work the 12 steps but who are are still interested in treatment for their addiction? Or for patients who have attempted AA but dropped out and are not interested in trying again? I've seen many patients who want to get better and live better/happier lives and may be interested in abstinence but don't want to touch a Vital Spiritual Experience with a 10-foot pole.

Most patients who my afore mentioned mentor treats have some aversion to the 12 Step programs and are in no way interested in a spiritual experience. That is one of the reasons why addiction medicine/addiction psychiatry (I think that the 2 should merge) is the most difficult in medicine. These boundaries need to be overcome, and it takes an incredibly skilled physician to identify and work through the patient's defenses and resistances. Seeing the masterly skill in which my mentor interacts with patients and breaks down defenses with tangible results (I have had chances to interact with people in long term Recovery who he treated years ago) was truly life changing and really was the catalyst for my passion in this area.
 
Folks, I believe we're being trolled again--that, or Dr. Tiebout (or possibly one of his True Believers) has returned from the grave.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Tiebout

So... I made it reasonably clear in my previous posts on this thread who inspired me to choose the name that I did; in fact, I directly quoted and mentioned Dr. Tiebout by name. If you are an addiction psychiatrist and have not read any of Harry Tiebout's works but consider COMBINE to be dogma and think topirimate is going to be a panacea for addiction, reading some of the classic papers might be of value: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=tiebout+HM

Along with my mentors from medical school (a world renowned behavioral neurologist and direct protege of Geschwind, an internationally revered addiction researcher and psychiatrist by training, a nationally known addiction medicine physician, and an up and coming addiction psychiatrist), the writings of Drs. Silkworth and Tiebout inspired me to purse the career I have chosen.
 
Well I will say this. Harry-you've delivered your points. Unless there's something new to add, let it be. People can read your posts and decide for themselves.
 
As they say in AA, "Take what you can use and leave the rest."

But I will add this: when I'm attempting to engage and motivate patients toward recovery and sobriety, one of the biggest negatives that promotes them to be dismissive of AA and its considerable strengths is the kind of dogmatic True Believerism that Dr. Tiebout and his namesake here spout.
 
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So... I made it reasonably clear in my previous posts on this thread who inspired me to choose the name that I did; in fact, I directly quoted and mentioned Dr. Tiebout by name. If you are an addiction psychiatrist and have not read any of Harry Tiebout's works but consider COMBINE to be dogma and think topirimate is going to be a panacea for addiction, reading some of the classic papers might be of value: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=tiebout HM

Along with my mentors from medical school (a world renowned behavioral neurologist and direct protege of Geschwind, an internationally revered addiction researcher and psychiatrist by training, a nationally known addiction medicine physician, and an up and coming addiction psychiatrist), the writings of Drs. Silkworth and Tiebout inspired me to purse the career I have chosen.
I knew that name was familiar to me and when I googled it I remembered where I had heard it right away. I wouldn't have had to google Dr. Silkworth for a reference for his opinion. My own dissertation involved Alcoholics Anonymous and am well aware of some of the anti-AA bias and the historical conflict between religion (spirituality) and science. The poster who stated that psychologists are more of the problem than psychiatry was probably accurate, as well. Some psychologists appear to take the stance of: if it can't be studied with experimental design, then it doesn't exist.

One way I deal with the bias is by recommending to my patients the benefits of associating with an organization that promotes abstinence. AA has benefits above and beyond some other organizations, but they do not have the only method to produce life changing spiritual experiences. I don't care what organization my patients get involved in that helps them recover, but I do think that involvement is extremely beneficial and the research supports that.
 
I knew that name was familiar to me and when I googled it I remembered where I had heard it right away. I wouldn't have had to google Dr. Silkworth for a reference for his opinion. My own dissertation involved Alcoholics Anonymous and am well aware of some of the anti-AA bias and the historical conflict between religion (spirituality) and science. The poster who stated that psychologists are more of the problem than psychiatry was probably accurate, as well. Some psychologists appear to take the stance of: if it can't be studied with experimental design, then it doesn't exist.

One way I deal with the bias is by recommending to my patients the benefits of associating with an organization that promotes abstinence. AA has benefits above and beyond some other organizations, but they do not have the only method to produce life changing spiritual experiences. I don't care what organization my patients get involved in that helps them recover, but I do think that involvement is extremely beneficial and the research supports that.

As an atheist and a person who has a decent amount of resentments against organized religion based on childhood experiences, I think it's important to respect people who really have barriers with connecting with 12-step types of programs because of this stuff. Things like SMART Recovery are also valid, abstinence promoting programs that drop all that talk of spirituality, which might be a legitimate turn off to people. I also get what the 12 step people say about spirituality not being religion, but I think it's reasonably still not the most comfortable place for everyone. I also bet you that an AA meeting in my home state, which is about as Bible Beltish as you can get, would be overtly Christian in focus. Anyway, so yeah, group recovery is a good thing, but AA/12 step isn't the best answer for everyone. I think we lose some empathy for our patients when we lose sight of that.
 
As an atheist and a person who has a decent amount of resentments against organized religion based on childhood experiences, I think it's important to respect people who really have barriers with connecting with 12-step types of programs because of this stuff. Things like SMART Recovery are also valid, abstinence promoting programs that drop all that talk of spirituality, which might be a legitimate turn off to people. I also get what the 12 step people say about spirituality not being religion, but I think it's reasonably still not the most comfortable place for everyone. I also bet you that an AA meeting in my home state, which is about as Bible Beltish as you can get, would be overtly Christian in focus. Anyway, so yeah, group recovery is a good thing, but AA/12 step isn't the best answer for everyone. I think we lose some empathy for our patients when we lose sight of that.

It is important to point out that for many addicts AA/NA/some step 12 program isn't a choice. An addicted nurse telling most board of nursings that she is going to do smart recovery rather than aa/na isn't going to be a nurse anymore.

I have no idea what the data really shows, but Harry is right in that the powers that be have officially gotten behind the 12 step model almost universally. I think there are like 46 physician health programs now(out of 50 states) and every one I've ever heard of all follows a pretty identical model mandating 12 step participation, aa/NA attendances, and other aspects of those programs....
 
It is important to point out that for many addicts AA/NA/some step 12 program isn't a choice. An addicted nurse telling most board of nursings that she is going to do smart recovery rather than aa/na isn't going to be a nurse anymore.

I have no idea what the data really shows, but Harry is right in that the powers that be have officially gotten behind the 12 step model almost universally. I think there are like 46 physician health programs now(out of 50 states) and every one I've ever heard of all follows a pretty identical model mandating 12 step participation, aa/NA attendances, and other aspects of those programs....

Again, you generalize from your personal awareness to infer absolute truth for the rest of the nation.
This is not true across the country, and MANY HPSPs follow different models, individualizing care to the specific situation, and drawing from a wide range of treatment modalities (including buprenorphine).

I would like to recommend that you all peruse the book "Inside Rehab" by Anne Fletcher as a readable primer of the wide range of acceptable approaches to chemical dependency treatment.
http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Rehab-...8&qid=1408551018&sr=8-2&keywords=inside+rehab
 
Again, you generalize from your personal awareness to infer absolute truth for the rest of the nation.
This is not true across the country, and MANY HPSPs follow different models, individualizing care to the specific situation, and drawing from a wide range of treatment modalities (including buprenorphine).

I work at a large commercial rehab now(which caters to impaired professionals) 3 days/week now on a locum contract, so I'm familar with the policies of phps in other states as most of our nurses, pharmacists, physicians etc come from other states.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3538407/

As you can see above, most states do not allow maintenance ort. The few states that do, from personal experience just in the short time I've worked in this facility. have very strict policies and when the regular staff has contacted these phps to develop a long term plan there was generally only unique circumstances under which *certain* patients in certain positions could be on ort.

The issue of ort aside(and again looking at the numbers it is clear that for the vast majority of health professionals in this country ort is not an option), 12 step programs are still mandatory at all(or almost all....maybe you can find a few states out there I'm not familar with) the phps Im familar with. The model these programs adopt from state to state are remarkably similar- in many cases you could literally just replace the state's name in the contracts and everything would be the same.
 
I'll add opd that imo we should allow more individuality of care when it comes to monitoring programs; but I really don't see things moving in that direction nationwide. There was that much publicized study awhile back citing the > 80% 5 year success figure, and if anything since then monitoring programs in other fields are using that as a template going forward.
 
Again, you generalize from your personal awareness to infer absolute truth for the rest of the nation.
This is not true across the country, and MANY HPSPs follow different models, individualizing care to the specific situation, and drawing from a wide range of treatment modalities (including buprenorphine).

I would like to recommend that you all peruse the book "Inside Rehab" by Anne Fletcher as a readable primer of the wide range of acceptable approaches to chemical dependency treatment.
http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Rehab-Surprising-Addiction-Treatment-/dp/B00BR9W6C8/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1408551018&sr=8-2&keywords=inside rehab

My understanding is that in my state, you can't practice medicine on buprenorphine/methadone. Don't know how true that is everywhere, but I guess it's true here. In the state where I went to medical school, I think the physician's recovery programs were very 12-step focused, so Vistaril is right about how things work in the places I know. It sounds like you might be in a more progressive place, which is nice.
 
Harry,

I have no problem deleting my plug about my new clinic. As an Addiction Psychiatrist I want to add that your approach to Addiction (working the 12 steps is the only way to "true recovery") is rather archaic and really does a disservice to the effort of making addictions an accepted medical field with evidence-based treatments. In the words of the former drug czar A. Thomas McLellan:

"After getting specialty care for diabetes, for example, “Nobody hugs and cries and sends you off to a church basement,” McLellan said. “That is called malpractice.”

Dr. McLellan was referring to outpatient f/u care for substance abuse treatment after a patient completes inpatient rehab. Expecting all patients to make a "spiritual recovery" in the process of receiving treatment for their medical condition of addiction is simply put ridiculous. I do believe attending 12 step groups and working the steps is great adjunctive treatment for patients if they are willing to participate.
 
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Just wanted to post that much of the time the objection to AA involvement is merely a rationalization that works pretty well because it resonates with many peoples personal objections to anything religious or spiritual. Atheists and Agnostics are quite welcome in most 12step groups and many 12step members are fairly anti-organized religion themselves. People with addiction tend to be really good at getting people to buy into their rationalizations and they suck us in all the time! They also want us to think that they only drink occasionally so alcohol isn't really a problem for me or once I deal with my "______" issues, then I will think about cutting back or if you had my problems you would use too. One fear of attending a group with other addicts is that they can see through that baloney really quick. Like one kid said in a group of teens with addiction that I was running a while back, "Really, you are going to try and lie in a room full of addicts? Good luck with that."
 
I am pretty sure advertising on SDN is not acceptable. Can a moderator please delete the Addiction's post above?
 
Harry,

I have no problem deleting my plug about my new clinic. As an Addiction Psychiatrist I want to add that your approach to Addiction (working the 12 steps is the only way to "true recovery") is rather archaic and really does a disservice to the effort of making addictions an accepted medical field with evidence-based treatments. In the words of the former drug czar A. Thomas McLellan:

"After getting specialty care for diabetes, for example, “Nobody hugs and cries and sends you off to a church basement,” McLellan said. “That is called malpractice.”

Dr. McLellan was referring to outpatient f/u care for substance abuse treatment after a patient completes inpatient rehab. Expecting all patients to make a "spiritual recovery" in the process of receiving treatment for their medical condition of addiction is simply put ridiculous. I do believe attending 12 step groups and working the steps is great adjunctive treatment for patients if they are willing to participate.
 
Just wanted to post that much of the time the objection to AA involvement is merely a rationalization that works pretty well because it resonates with many peoples personal objections to anything religious or spiritual. Atheists and Agnostics are quite welcome in most 12step groups and many 12step members are fairly anti-organized religion themselves. People with addiction tend to be really good at getting people to buy into their rationalizations and they suck us in all the time! They also want us to think that they only drink occasionally so alcohol isn't really a problem for me or once I deal with my "______" issues, then I will think about cutting back or if you had my problems you would use too. One fear of attending a group with other addicts is that they can see through that baloney really quick. Like one kid said in a group of teens with addiction that I was running a while back, "Really, you are going to try and lie in a room full of addicts? Good luck with that."

I guess I both agree and disagree. I think rationalizations might be there, but also, people do have legitimate religious trauma and being asked to attend meetings that often take place in a church and end with a very-Christian based prayer might not be the most helpful thing for them. Again, I'm a non-religious (and non "spiritual" as well) person who is from the Bible Belt, so I'm pretty sensitive about these things. It might be harder to understand if you had religious views that lined up with the majority or were from a less dogmatically religious (and intolerant) place. So if I were in recovery, I'd hope the people working with me would take my past experiences seriously and not dismiss them as rationalizations. I don't know if I would or would not use a 12 step program, but I'd hate to have that presented to me as my only choice.
 
I guess I both agree and disagree. I think rationalizations might be there, but also, people do have legitimate religious trauma and being asked to attend meetings that often take place in a church and end with a very-Christian based prayer might not be the most helpful thing for them. Again, I'm a non-religious (and non "spiritual" as well) person who is from the Bible Belt, so I'm pretty sensitive about these things. It might be harder to understand if you had religious views that lined up with the majority or were from a less dogmatically religious (and intolerant) place. So if I were in recovery, I'd hope the people working with me would take my past experiences seriously and not dismiss them as rationalizations. I don't know if I would or would not use a 12 step program, but I'd hate to have that presented to me as my only choice.
I am never dismissive of my patients, even if they are using obvious rationalizations, I merely challenge their thinking. For example, if a patient objects to a particular meeting, and there are a variety of other objections besides religion, I point out that different groups have different makeups and people there. I also ask the patient to come up with their own strategies to facilitate their recovery. 12 step is just one path. The main reason I am commenting on the religious aspect is that addicts will throw out whatever they can to see what resonates as a valid reason to keep doing what they are doing and they often find professional mental health as being very receptive to this particular objection.

Final point, I would like to make for all practitioners, is that it might be a good idea to attend a few open meetings in the area that you work in so that you have an idea of what the local flavor and tenor of AA is and can more effectively assist your patients who attend either voluntarily or by court order. I have personally found that most health professionals struggle with understanding both addiction and recovery and my dissertation research indicated that the 12 step community, at least in my sample, feels misunderstood by us as well. The reality is that 12 step programs do work well for many addicts and they tend to go off our radar once they are in recovery. This skews our perception as we continue working with the early stage recovering addicts or even worse people in active addiction. I just had a great conversation with an ER doc who was complaining about our patients (intoxicated and suicidal), and I told her that these aren't really our patients because they are not in treatment and don't really want to be.
 
Harry,

I have no problem deleting my plug about my new clinic. As an Addiction Psychiatrist I want to add that your approach to Addiction (working the 12 steps is the only way to "true recovery") is rather archaic and really does a disservice to the effort of making addictions an accepted medical field with evidence-based treatments. In the words of the former drug czar A. Thomas McLellan:

"After getting specialty care for diabetes, for example, “Nobody hugs and cries and sends you off to a church basement,” McLellan said. “That is called malpractice.”

Dr. McLellan was referring to outpatient f/u care for substance abuse treatment after a patient completes inpatient rehab. Expecting all patients to make a "spiritual recovery" in the process of receiving treatment for their medical condition of addiction is simply put ridiculous. I do believe attending 12 step groups and working the steps is great adjunctive treatment for patients if they are willing to participate.

First of all, I have actually collaborated with Dr. McClellan, as he is a close friend and colleague of one of my mentors. That quote was taken completely out of context. Dr. McClellan has been a proponent of 12 Step Programs, but he is making the argument that the current model of residential treatment based on "systematized guess work" dating back to the Minnesota model/Synanon in which patients are confronted/humiliated/embarrassed and then forced to go to AA, does not routinely work. What he argues is a more refined approach that caters to the patient's individual barriers and resistances, medical and psychiatric co-morbidities with appropriate monitoring and medical/psychiatric follow up as necessary (essentially what is done with impaired physicians). Medications can be a part of this- no one is arguing that. What he recommends is not so different from Dr. Tiebout's vision in the 1950s.

And as I have mentioned before, the spiritual experience is the only process by which I am aware that repairs the aberrant connectivities between the striatum and the part of the brain that makes addiction a distinctly human disease, the prefrontal cortex. But hey, there's always topiramate, right?
 
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And as I have mentioned before, the spiritual experience is the only process by which I am aware that repairs the aberrant connectivities between the striatum and the part of the brain that makes addiction a distinctly human disease, the prefrontal cortex. But hey, there's always topiramate, right?

I admit I'm getting hung up in that word, but I'm not a fan of the notion of a "spiritual" cure for a medical condition.
 
the spiritual experience is the only process by which I am aware that repairs the aberrant connectivities between the striatum and the part of the brain that makes addiction a distinctly human disease, the prefrontal cortex.
That is true for quite a few people. It's entirely untrue for plenty of others. Addiction is much more complicated than you seem to realize.
 
I admit I'm getting hung up in that word, but I'm not a fan of the notion of a "spiritual" cure for a medical condition.

That is true for quite a few people. It's entirely untrue for plenty of others. Addiction is much more complicated than you seem to realize.
I agree with both of these statements and I think that sometimes it is a problem with the semantics. I have patients who have transformative enlightening experiences all of the time and these experiences can be referred to in a variety of ways. For me, part of what we work for in psychotherapy are these types of "aha" moments.

Also, in the text of AA it very clearly states that they do not have an exclusive path to recovery. Unfortunately, many of the members forget this and through their own self-centered perspective see their path as the only way. The important thing to remember as a mental health professional is that the long-term benefits of involvement in a 12 step program for those who are members can be extremely powerful so lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
 
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I'm adding to the voices recommending keeping an open mind and avoiding all or nothing thinking when it comes to treating substance abuse (and ironically find those two issues prevelant in those suffering from substance abuse).

AA and other 12 step programs are awesome and evidence based. But they don't work for everyone and when they don't work for a patient, they are no more the point of failure than the depressed patient is when a particular SRRI isn't working. You don't blame the patient, you look for alternative treatments.

Love AA but there are whole populations that find it's approach challenging. Many find the spiritual approach insurmountable. Many veterans find the "surrender to your powerlessness" problematic.

12 step (and abstinence programs in general) are not a cure all. If it doesn't cure your patient, it ain't necessarily the patient to blame...
 
Love AA but there are whole populations that find it's approach challenging. Many find the spiritual approach insurmountable. Many veterans find the "surrender to your powerlessness" problematic.

12 step (and abstinence programs in general) are not a cure all. If it doesn't cure your patient, it ain't necessarily the patient to blame...

I'd add women as a group that has historically struggled to fit into classic 12 step types of programs. Also people who are already prone to feeling overpowering shame and guilt might struggle if engaged in a less nuanced 12 step approach that can reinforce their own self-hatred. I've seen it happen with some of my patients. That being said, I agree that 12 step programs can be great for some (maybe even most) people, and I certainly bring them up as options (and even encourage their usage) when dealing with substance using patients. I also agree that there's more than a purely biological explanation for addictive behaviors.

So the statement I have trouble with when people say they can't do groups is the claim that going to AA/NA/whatever makes them want to use. I was preaching empathy earlier, but there's something in that statement that sets off my BS meter.
 
Hello all there is legislation in the works to significantly increase the buprenorphine limit for waivered prescribers. The major components of the bill are

1) Allow Addiction-certified docs (certified in Addiction by ABPN, certified by ASAM or ABAM, and certified Osteopathic Addiction Medicine organization) to have UNLIMITED rights to prescribe buprenorphine after having the waiver for at least one year.

2) Allow NPs and PAs to prescribe buprenorphine to 100 patients under the supervision of an Addiction-certified doctor

3) Certain "qualified practice settings" would also allow waivered non-Addiction certified docs to have unlimited prescribing rights (VA, community health centers, etc.) which are monitored.

Here are links to the legislation:

http://www.markey.senate.gov/news/p...nt-for-heroin-and-prescription-drug-addiction (summary)

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/s2645/text/is (actual bill)

http://www.markey.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/2014-07-23_TREATAct_1_PAGER.pdf (summary of bill)

Let me know your thoughts on this potential game changing legislation.

OFFTOPIC:

why are we letting NPs and PAs take over MD responsibilities so easily?

we should be fighting to keep them from doing anything but 15 min med checkups
 
OFFTOPIC:

why are we letting NPs and PAs take over MD responsibilities so easily?

we should be fighting to keep them from doing anything but 15 min med checkups
Do a search. There are MANY threads devoted to just this topic. Browse through past threads and you will find more on the subject than you could possibly want to know...
 
I'd say part of the reason is there aren't enough psychiatrists to go around. Getting deeper, despite the shortage of psychiatrists, the pay hasn't gone up much if at all in several aspects, further discouraging some from going into the field.
 
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