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Lets be friends
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group_theory
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Does anyone find it ironic that the OP originally started this thread going "let's be friends" and it has turned into a MD v DO debate (or Why DO exist in America)?
Anyway, there is a difference between an A in orgo from MIT and an A in orgo from your local college down the street (unless you live in Cambridge, MA in which MIT is your local college down the street)
Most grades in undergrads are based on curves (well, at least in my humble experience). Hence, you have to be in the top 10 percent to get that A (or top 5% or top 25%, depending on school and professor)
Now, trying to be the top of the class in a class full of people who were top of their classes (in HS) is quite different than trying to be the top of a class at your local college down the street.
The same can be said of people. There are people who take easy classes (known for their easy As) to inflate their grades, while there are people who take classes like PCHEM, orgometallic, biophysics, etc. just for the hell of it (and to learn new and interesting and insane materials)
When it's all said and done, there is something that GPAs and MCATs just can't quantify or describe.
Perhaps the low GPA is due to bad study habits. Or perhaps it's due to the fact that the guy can't construct a character table for a c2v compound. Or perhaps its due to language barrier because the applicant is a recent refugee who tried his/her best to do well in college.
Anyway, all I'm asking is that you judge people based on their performances. Some DOs may be bad physicians - and some MDs may be bad physicians. Some DOs may have wonderful bedside manners - and some MDs may have wonderful bedside manners. Don't just assume one thing or another based on some broad generalization.
Anyway, there is a difference between an A in orgo from MIT and an A in orgo from your local college down the street (unless you live in Cambridge, MA in which MIT is your local college down the street)
Most grades in undergrads are based on curves (well, at least in my humble experience). Hence, you have to be in the top 10 percent to get that A (or top 5% or top 25%, depending on school and professor)
Now, trying to be the top of the class in a class full of people who were top of their classes (in HS) is quite different than trying to be the top of a class at your local college down the street.
The same can be said of people. There are people who take easy classes (known for their easy As) to inflate their grades, while there are people who take classes like PCHEM, orgometallic, biophysics, etc. just for the hell of it (and to learn new and interesting and insane materials)
When it's all said and done, there is something that GPAs and MCATs just can't quantify or describe.
Perhaps the low GPA is due to bad study habits. Or perhaps it's due to the fact that the guy can't construct a character table for a c2v compound. Or perhaps its due to language barrier because the applicant is a recent refugee who tried his/her best to do well in college.
Anyway, all I'm asking is that you judge people based on their performances. Some DOs may be bad physicians - and some MDs may be bad physicians. Some DOs may have wonderful bedside manners - and some MDs may have wonderful bedside manners. Don't just assume one thing or another based on some broad generalization.
I'm not a fan of MD vs. DO debates, but I think it's healthy to engage in a discussion on the relative merits of the osteopathic profession, whether it still maintains something philosophically distinct and unique from the allopathic profession, and what the osteopathic profession intends to do in the future.
I don't think there needs to be any categorical statement along the lines of the original posting, "Let's be friends," because I believe the great majority of us already are. Friends can, however, ask really tough questions of the other not as a test but as a matter of intellectual curiosity.
I'm sorry that asking why we have an osteopathic profession in the United States rubs you the wrong way, but it's my hope that something good can come out of a thread that quickly degenerated into an MD vs. DO debate.
🙂
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Actually, I think DO v MD debates are useful - it allows both sides to see each other's arguments and learn and understand one another. Unfortunately, most debates turn into "I'm better than you are, nadda nadda poo poo"
I've just finish reading "The D.O.'s - Osteopathic Medicine in America" by Norman Gevitz
(ISBN 0-8018-4321-9)
It's is my opinion after reading the book (and only my opinion) that the reason why we have 2 seperate but equal medical degrees is because the AMA failed to absorbed the DOs. They have tried to banned it (through legislation), through court rulings, through intimidation, through official stances (it is unethical to work professional with an osteopathic physician), and through mergers (the DO --> MD in CA in the 60s)
Somehow, the AOA (american osteopathic association, not alpha omega alpha) managed to survive and now thrive. It's quite interesting how MSU obtained an osteopathic school (which the MI MDs were certainly opposed to).
For those of you who want to learn more about the history and origins of Osteopathic Medicine, I suggest you read this book.
I've just finish reading "The D.O.'s - Osteopathic Medicine in America" by Norman Gevitz
(ISBN 0-8018-4321-9)
It's is my opinion after reading the book (and only my opinion) that the reason why we have 2 seperate but equal medical degrees is because the AMA failed to absorbed the DOs. They have tried to banned it (through legislation), through court rulings, through intimidation, through official stances (it is unethical to work professional with an osteopathic physician), and through mergers (the DO --> MD in CA in the 60s)
Somehow, the AOA (american osteopathic association, not alpha omega alpha) managed to survive and now thrive. It's quite interesting how MSU obtained an osteopathic school (which the MI MDs were certainly opposed to).
For those of you who want to learn more about the history and origins of Osteopathic Medicine, I suggest you read this book.
Well, I think the early osteopaths survived anti-DO legislation by becoming more like the allopathic profession. Read the chapter in Gevitz's book, "The Push for Higher Standards," which clearly illustrates that the osteopathic profession knew it had to move forward or die.
As for the 1960s near-death of osteopathic medicine, I think the profession's survival depended on, in part, the allopathic profession of California's blunder of shooting itself in the foot. You don't give MDs to about 2,000 DOs and then screw 'em over by not ensuring that they all have hospital admission privileges. It's not wonder the merger attempt failed, but had it survived, the world may be very different today. Well, maybe not. 🙂
OK, I personally have no problem having a resident or attending who is a DO supervising me as long as they treat me with the same respect they would treat a DO student with.. I personally am just as tired as being stereotyped as an MD student by DO students/applicants.. Favorite remarks of DO students on here have included "the DO curriculum is harder than the MD curriculum", "DO's are better at blah blah blah than MD's", "allopathic students are all concerned about prestige and ranking." I understand that some of the allopathic students on here can be big jerks toward DO's, but it is just as wrong for DO students to stereotype MD students as the other way around (and I don't think it particularly perpetuates "peace" on here either). If you want to be a DO at UNECOM and treat patients in rural Maine, good for you. Likewise, if you want to be a Harvard MD in neurosurgery, that's cool too.. not up to me to say what people should choose to do..
oh yeah, a sense of humor might do some the riled up posters some good (this applies to other threads).. I used to get very pi$$y (ok, I know the PC stuff over abbreviated profanity is huge on here now, but please cut some slack) when people made fun of my school, but after taking a step back I can actually see the truth in some of their comments and just roll my eyes and/or laugh at the more ridiculous comments b/c I know that they are not true. I mean, our stinky anatomy lab in the basement and the ugly dorm with the prostitutes solicting under peoples' windows and the outrageous tuition are definitely fair targets for ridicule, I can't deny it.. Bottom line: if you are enjoying your osteopathic education and learning what you feel you need to be a good physician it shouldn't matter what people on a message board think..😉
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I agree with you 100%
To add, there were some pro-DO legislations too. Apparently some of the legislatures (forgot which state and right now I'm too lazy to look it up in the book) decided to see what all this "osteopathy" was about - and became big fans. The governor eagerly signed the bill because he benefits from OMT as well.
It's quite an interesting book - talks about how DO schools were forced to increase their training time, their entry requirements, etc.
NO, I AM NOT TRYING TO SELL THIS BOOK (nor will I receive commission from the reading of the book)
However, it would be a more meaningful debate if both parties knew more about the history of osteopathic medicine (and its clashes with allopathic medicine)
Let's be honest, it's much more difficult to get into an allopathic school than an osteopathic school. And MD's are more respected by society as a whole than DO's. But if you think the general public prefers an MD over a DO because of the difference in philosophy, or undergrad GPA's and MCAT scores, you are sadly mistaken. It comes down to history and nothing more. MD's and allopathic medicine has been around a lot longer. The number of MD's overwhelm the number of DOs in practice. So naturally, the general public is simply not aware of what a DO is or its existance.
No, the person from Harvard is not automatically a better doctor than the person from the University of Kansas or any other non-Ivy league school. I credit those who graduated from a school like Harvard. But to think that they are more talented simply because they attended Harvard is not a rule. I know a lot of brilliant people who are lazy. And believe it or not, people don't get into Harvard without working hard. Yes, I know you believe your genius friend who claimed to have "never studied." Here is a tip for you: HE WAS LYING. The people who attend ivy league medical schools made sacrifices that most people were not willing to make. Of course, they aren't going to tell you that. It's always more hip to say that you only looked at your notes for a couple of hours prior to the exam, but that's b.s. I have caught these so called "geniuses" secretly studying. It's sad that you believed them.
I know two people who attended Harvard medical school. Both of these people started studying two years prior to the MCAT. They studied nearly 4-5 hours per day. One of these individuals was the valedictorian at my high school as well. He never went out!!! They worked their ass off. These people read and memorized their notes verbatim weeks before our exams. Do these people deserve to attend Harvard? Absolutely! But I know many physicians who got their act together later in their careers and excelled in medical school. Many of these people outperformed some of the best doctors in the country on the USMLE.
So let's be a little realistic and accept the idea that just because a guy couldn't get into an MD school, it doesn't mean he or she isn't more talented than an MD. I have seen a lot of brillant slackers become motivated and it's scary what they can accomplish.
Nonetheless, I understand why many of you MD's are bitter towards DO's. You sacrificed your social and mental wellbeing during your formative years. You want to see yourselves succeed in ways that the cool kids can't. Unfortunately, a lot of the beer guzzling slackers got into a DO school and are now outperforming some of you. Deal with it. You should have developed a personality when you had a chance.
No, the person from Harvard is not automatically a better doctor than the person from the University of Kansas or any other non-Ivy league school. I credit those who graduated from a school like Harvard. But to think that they are more talented simply because they attended Harvard is not a rule. I know a lot of brilliant people who are lazy. And believe it or not, people don't get into Harvard without working hard. Yes, I know you believe your genius friend who claimed to have "never studied." Here is a tip for you: HE WAS LYING. The people who attend ivy league medical schools made sacrifices that most people were not willing to make. Of course, they aren't going to tell you that. It's always more hip to say that you only looked at your notes for a couple of hours prior to the exam, but that's b.s. I have caught these so called "geniuses" secretly studying. It's sad that you believed them.
I know two people who attended Harvard medical school. Both of these people started studying two years prior to the MCAT. They studied nearly 4-5 hours per day. One of these individuals was the valedictorian at my high school as well. He never went out!!! They worked their ass off. These people read and memorized their notes verbatim weeks before our exams. Do these people deserve to attend Harvard? Absolutely! But I know many physicians who got their act together later in their careers and excelled in medical school. Many of these people outperformed some of the best doctors in the country on the USMLE.
So let's be a little realistic and accept the idea that just because a guy couldn't get into an MD school, it doesn't mean he or she isn't more talented than an MD. I have seen a lot of brillant slackers become motivated and it's scary what they can accomplish.
Nonetheless, I understand why many of you MD's are bitter towards DO's. You sacrificed your social and mental wellbeing during your formative years. You want to see yourselves succeed in ways that the cool kids can't. Unfortunately, a lot of the beer guzzling slackers got into a DO school and are now outperforming some of you. Deal with it. You should have developed a personality when you had a chance.
Hey guys, how many times are we going to go over this argument. There's been so many Threads in different forums over this silly subject, and doesn't it bore you? It certainly bores me. 😛 Haven't you read over and over the arguments that other DO's and MD's have posted over the past several weeks? You're saying the same things that were said 2 weeks ago! Come on!
When did beer guzzling and slacking off become the ingredients for a personality?
I don't think MD's are bitter towards DO's, nonetheless for the ridiculous reasons you've mentioned. If anything, it's my impression from these threads that DO's are the ones that are bitter at MD's. By your reasoning, most of them are probably going, "Gee, I wish I hadn't guzzled so much beer and slacked off during my formative years cuz' I'd probably be an MD instead of a DO, but you know what? at least I could win a Mr./Mrs. Personality Contest!!!" There is no question that some DO's outperform some MD's, but I don't think it's broad-based enough where MD's would have to "deal with it."
nice avatar by the way.
Originally posted by UCLA2000
Genius is a strong word, but if you think that my ability to properly spell the word ENDURANCE qualifies me...
Actually it proves that you have nothing to contribute to this conversation other than spelling corrections, but thanks anyway!
To the contrary! What made your entire post so funny was that you were spouting off about how the verbal section of the MCAT is an accurate predictor of future performance as a physician. However, in the middle of your dissertation you spelled the word Endurance with an I on two seperate occasions. (Typo? I think not!)
I think that most people would agree that spelling is an important aspect of verbal skills....so following your own logic...😀
Don't make me come in there and break it up!
😀
😀
I wonder how many people would behave like jackasses if this forum weren't anonymous. I wonder if the folks with the patronizing tones are actually students at allopathic institutions. I wonder if anyone would be willing to take some of these tones with a DO in a professional setting. I wonder if any of the stuff posted on this message board really matters in the grand scheme of things.
I posted this on the other osteopathic medicine thread. I think it's relevant here, too:
Wow, this is quite a thread. Here are the two points I want to add:
1. It's really amazing, the things one does to elevate his/her self-esteem. Really, both M.D. and D.O. physicians make a lot of money, help human beings on a daily basis, enjoy a very morally rewarding career, and receive a very high level of respect from the general public (I would guess that less than 1 % of the American population has a doctorate degree). Yeah, maybe osteopaths should go up to optometrists and try to condescend them when we see them at the hospitals!
2. If an M.D. really maintained a patronizing attitude toward a fellow physician (D.O.), then he/she is truly not deserving of an M.D. or a D.O. The goal is SELF-Actualization, NOT beating everyone else around you in some sort of a race. I think it's fair if there's a distinction made when hiring is taking place between the different reputations of academic institutions (I'm sure we all know Harvard Medical School would trump a lot of schools). However, it's just plain silly to behave and treat a person that you THINK is less qualified very differently than other co-workers. That's stupid and wrong.
I posted this on the other osteopathic medicine thread. I think it's relevant here, too:
Wow, this is quite a thread. Here are the two points I want to add:
1. It's really amazing, the things one does to elevate his/her self-esteem. Really, both M.D. and D.O. physicians make a lot of money, help human beings on a daily basis, enjoy a very morally rewarding career, and receive a very high level of respect from the general public (I would guess that less than 1 % of the American population has a doctorate degree). Yeah, maybe osteopaths should go up to optometrists and try to condescend them when we see them at the hospitals!
2. If an M.D. really maintained a patronizing attitude toward a fellow physician (D.O.), then he/she is truly not deserving of an M.D. or a D.O. The goal is SELF-Actualization, NOT beating everyone else around you in some sort of a race. I think it's fair if there's a distinction made when hiring is taking place between the different reputations of academic institutions (I'm sure we all know Harvard Medical School would trump a lot of schools). However, it's just plain silly to behave and treat a person that you THINK is less qualified very differently than other co-workers. That's stupid and wrong.
I am a future DO student, TCOM class of 2007. Look, this forum is for our pleasure, enjoyment, learning, crying, and what ever more...
Do you really think arguing in an internet forum will change the way the world views DO's? I'm not patronizing osteopathic medicine. I didn't settle for a DO school; this is where I choose to go. I believe in osteopathic medicine, and I grew up with it. Don't stress yourself out because others in this forum may have a condesending view towards our profession. Use this forum to learn objective views, opportunities, options, etc...
Just the other day, I was talking to an MD, and he didn't even know what a DO was! And this is coming from TX, a state that has an osteopathic school. Even when I tell people I'm going to TCOM, the vast majority of people don't know what that is! That includes people I work with at Baylor College of Medicine!!! The point I'm trying to make is that I don't give a rat's !@# about what people think. I'm satisfied knowing that I'm going to medical school, and I'll some day become an orthopedic surgeon. If they're ignorant of osteopathic medicine, too bad for them. And lastly, RAMSESTIGER:
!!!Don't worry, Be Happy!!!!
Do you really think arguing in an internet forum will change the way the world views DO's? I'm not patronizing osteopathic medicine. I didn't settle for a DO school; this is where I choose to go. I believe in osteopathic medicine, and I grew up with it. Don't stress yourself out because others in this forum may have a condesending view towards our profession. Use this forum to learn objective views, opportunities, options, etc...
Just the other day, I was talking to an MD, and he didn't even know what a DO was! And this is coming from TX, a state that has an osteopathic school. Even when I tell people I'm going to TCOM, the vast majority of people don't know what that is! That includes people I work with at Baylor College of Medicine!!! The point I'm trying to make is that I don't give a rat's !@# about what people think. I'm satisfied knowing that I'm going to medical school, and I'll some day become an orthopedic surgeon. If they're ignorant of osteopathic medicine, too bad for them. And lastly, RAMSESTIGER:
!!!Don't worry, Be Happy!!!!
I believe that the osteopathic profession serves a purpose distinct from the allopathic profession, but question whether this distinction really lies in what today's osteopathic medical student calls a "philosophical difference." Time and again the community of physicians is told that there are dissimilarities in the way MDs and DOs practice, based solely on the way each has been educated, but I struggle to see these in practice on the wards where MDs and DOs share space. I have repeatedly asked osteopathic medical students to define the differences between our two professions, but none have ever given me anything satisfactory. I recall only a lot of hand-waving and use of the word "holism" and the phrase "treating the person, not the symptoms."
Tim,
I'm a pre-med, so I haven't actually experienced either type of education. So I'm not going to claim to be an expert. But I did want to share my reasonings for pursuing an osteopathic education.
As a young and naive pre-med student I did not know the difference between MD and DO. In the middle of college my father became terminally ill with cancer. The majority of the doctor's were MDs. Before any of you get offeneded by what I am about to write, please understand that my initial perspectives of this situation were a bit clouded by my own emotions. I found the doctor's who treated my father to be calloused, insensitive, and borderline disrespectful. I won't go into all the details, but there were certain issues regarding a lacking in his pain management. This was a difficult situation
for me because I coudn't understand why a profession I was striving so hard to be a part of was failing my father. I found myself discouraged and frustrated. However, my father's nurses were amazing. I am so grateful for everything they did for my father while he was sick. I really felt they were on his side, and did everything they could to make him comfortable. I began to think about pursuing a career in nursing. It seemed it was the nurses who made the difference.
I am only a few years older now, but I have a lot more life experience than I did back in college. I have spent the past couple of years traveling and working in all different kinds of fields. I now work 2 jobs, one as an er tech, and one as a medical assistant in a DO's office. The er job has given me a ton of great patient experience, and i no longer have a negative opinion of doctor's. It has also taught me that I want a larger scope of practice than what nursing has to offer. I want to be a part of my patient's lives, to educate them, and teach them healthy lifestyles. The DO i work with is amazing. I have never seen a doctor treat his patients with more care and respect. He has the same atitude about patient advocacy that the nurses who treated my father had. While this may be a case specific example, it seems to me that DO's incorporate the attitude of nursing with a physician's scope of practice. Maybe it's just a different way of thinking.
In response to the various comments about gpa/mcat stats in do vs. md schools...maybe it's true that some DO applicants have lower stats...I know my stats are lower than average md applicant stats. If anything, I hope that will make me more humble in my profession, and prevent me from losing sight of the responsibility and obligation bestowed upon me. Anyway, I hope this gave you a little insight into the mind of someone intentionally pursuing an osteopathic education. Good luck.
Tim,
I'm a pre-med, so I haven't actually experienced either type of education. So I'm not going to claim to be an expert. But I did want to share my reasonings for pursuing an osteopathic education.
As a young and naive pre-med student I did not know the difference between MD and DO. In the middle of college my father became terminally ill with cancer. The majority of the doctor's were MDs. Before any of you get offeneded by what I am about to write, please understand that my initial perspectives of this situation were a bit clouded by my own emotions. I found the doctor's who treated my father to be calloused, insensitive, and borderline disrespectful. I won't go into all the details, but there were certain issues regarding a lacking in his pain management. This was a difficult situation
for me because I coudn't understand why a profession I was striving so hard to be a part of was failing my father. I found myself discouraged and frustrated. However, my father's nurses were amazing. I am so grateful for everything they did for my father while he was sick. I really felt they were on his side, and did everything they could to make him comfortable. I began to think about pursuing a career in nursing. It seemed it was the nurses who made the difference.
I am only a few years older now, but I have a lot more life experience than I did back in college. I have spent the past couple of years traveling and working in all different kinds of fields. I now work 2 jobs, one as an er tech, and one as a medical assistant in a DO's office. The er job has given me a ton of great patient experience, and i no longer have a negative opinion of doctor's. It has also taught me that I want a larger scope of practice than what nursing has to offer. I want to be a part of my patient's lives, to educate them, and teach them healthy lifestyles. The DO i work with is amazing. I have never seen a doctor treat his patients with more care and respect. He has the same atitude about patient advocacy that the nurses who treated my father had. While this may be a case specific example, it seems to me that DO's incorporate the attitude of nursing with a physician's scope of practice. Maybe it's just a different way of thinking.
In response to the various comments about gpa/mcat stats in do vs. md schools...maybe it's true that some DO applicants have lower stats...I know my stats are lower than average md applicant stats. If anything, I hope that will make me more humble in my profession, and prevent me from losing sight of the responsibility and obligation bestowed upon me. Anyway, I hope this gave you a little insight into the mind of someone intentionally pursuing an osteopathic education. Good luck.
Alias, I wish you luck in your pursuit of a medical career and have no intention of swaying you one way or another, but the story you told, as outlined above, is a little puzzling. Please help me understand if I have it correctly.
1) You pursued medical school before you knew of your father's illness.
2) You knew that a "majority" of your father's physicians were MDs, implying that the others were DOs.
3) You state that your father's doctors were callous, mean, and downright nasty, but you seem to only single out MDs for this.
4) You then decided to become a nurse.
5) You worked as an ER Tech and an assistant to a DO.
6) You state that during your work in the ER, you found respect for physicians again. Assuming that most of the physicians in the ER are MDs, that would mean your faith in MDs came back.
Yet you go on to write that your work with that one DO in that one office in the middle of Anytown, USA, swayed you to decide to be a DO because they seem nicer? Not because of the MDs in the ER?
There seems to be a fair amount of premeds throwing their hat into the ring here. I suppose I can understand their desire to enter into discussions such as these, as they are entering into a new chapter in their lives and they are curious about all aspects of it. But ever since I joined SDN I have been amazed at medical students (MD and DO) that seem to have the kind of time to come here and write three page posts antagonizing other medical students. If a free exchange of ideas was their purpose, I suppose I could understand that. But who are these people that spend all this time arguing over and over again this age old tiresome debate? Who cares if there are DO students that got into MD medical schools but chose their current pathway instead of the MD one, or about the MCAT scores of DO students versus MD students, etc. It never ceases to amaze me that with the little free time we have in medical school, some still prefer to spend it throwing punches in an anonymous forum, which by it's very nature requires that most comments necessarily be taken with a grain of salt. Is it for entertainment purposes? Or are real feelings be expressed here? Perhaps I am the naive one, but it seems overwhelmingly obvious to me that none of this means anything in the real world. It is an internet forum, plain and simple. Is it possible that one day a thread on SDN might include an exchange on this topic that entails an informative, enlightening relay of FACTS that is devoid of the innuendos and personal attacks seen here? Or am I just wasting my time looking at these threads?
PS T WU: kudos to you for trying to steer this "debate" towards that end.
PS T WU: kudos to you for trying to steer this "debate" towards that end.
I would just like to state that as a pre-med in my final year in college, I have been accepted to 2 D.O. schools and decided to not pursue my 2 other D.O. applications. I never even thought about applying to M.D. schools. For me, wanting to become a D.O. was a choice I made and was not based upon my stats. I am fully confident that had I applied to some M.D. schools I would have gotten in....the same goes for several of my friends.
People are right that the general trend is that the GPA and MCAT scores of D.O. schools are lower than M.D. schools. It's obvious to me that a good reason for this occurring is that wanna be M.D.'s couldn't get in and therefore they applied to D.O. schools bringing the stats down. I don't fault them for it, they did what they needed to do and I think that everyone in the Pre.Allo forum would do the same. What people need to realize is that you can't base a Physician's skills on what their scores as undergrad's were. You have to look at their clinical skills, how they interact with their patients.
Tim, this is where the difference between D.O.'s and M.D.'s comes into play. When D.O.s go into their rotations, the majority of D.O.s are better prepared in the sense that they aren't afraid to be "hands on"; To touch a patients shoulder to comfort them. This stems from the OMM they have received helping them to become comfortable among people. This doesn't go to say that an M.D. can't do this, but overall, the D.O.'s are better prepared.
People are obviously going to stick-up for the profession they are choosing to go into. What I think needs to be done, is people need to become accepting of others even though they may personally have a preference of one type of medicine over the other. If you can't do this now, I highly recommend you don't go into medicine because you will be faced with working with people of the other profession. In addition, your patients will be from diverse backgrounds and they should all be given the utmost respect regardless of who they are and what they believe.
People are right that the general trend is that the GPA and MCAT scores of D.O. schools are lower than M.D. schools. It's obvious to me that a good reason for this occurring is that wanna be M.D.'s couldn't get in and therefore they applied to D.O. schools bringing the stats down. I don't fault them for it, they did what they needed to do and I think that everyone in the Pre.Allo forum would do the same. What people need to realize is that you can't base a Physician's skills on what their scores as undergrad's were. You have to look at their clinical skills, how they interact with their patients.
Tim, this is where the difference between D.O.'s and M.D.'s comes into play. When D.O.s go into their rotations, the majority of D.O.s are better prepared in the sense that they aren't afraid to be "hands on"; To touch a patients shoulder to comfort them. This stems from the OMM they have received helping them to become comfortable among people. This doesn't go to say that an M.D. can't do this, but overall, the D.O.'s are better prepared.
People are obviously going to stick-up for the profession they are choosing to go into. What I think needs to be done, is people need to become accepting of others even though they may personally have a preference of one type of medicine over the other. If you can't do this now, I highly recommend you don't go into medicine because you will be faced with working with people of the other profession. In addition, your patients will be from diverse backgrounds and they should all be given the utmost respect regardless of who they are and what they believe.
1) I said the majority of his doctors because all of the doctor's I personally dealt with and spoke to were MDs. I can't say with 100% certainty that there was not a single DO. I didn't want to make a false statement.
2) I work with both MDs and DOs in the er. Some years of perspective and experience have taught me that its not the degree that makes adoctor, its the person.
3) Since the doctor I work with most closely is a DO, I began to research the profession, and the general attitude seems to fit. I really like the primary care focus, and the approach they take on preventative care. All I'm saying is that a DO was a major part of why I decided to pursue medicine again. In my experience, DOs that I work with in the er, the DO I work as a medical assistant for, and the DO I go to, all seem like really cool down to earth people. It's just something I feel more comfortable with. In addition, the DO school I want to go to has had a big influence on my decision. They have great facilities, a program I really like, and I really like the faculty and students...I also work with some of these rotating students in the er. I just feel like this is where I should be. Does that help?
Excellent response. I had very much the same experience in applying to medical school and was on my way to NYCOM until the prospect of repaying $200,000 versus $50,000 swayed me.
If you feel that strongly about a particular school, GO THERE and DON'T think about the price tag.
If you feel that strongly about a particular school, GO THERE and DON'T think about the price tag.
Here check out the archives of family medicine journals of the ama. http://archfami.ama-assn.org/issues...ll/fsa8021.html it states:
"Although many osteopaths use manipulation as an adjunct to treat many illnesses, there are no large controlled trials of the effectiveness of manipulation for conditions other than lower back pain ... Studies that have shown positive effects of manipulation for back pain have been criticized for not adequately controlling placebo effect. Doran and Newell65 concluded after studying 456 patients that although a few patients responded rapidly to manipulation, there were no significant differences compared with physiotherapy, corsets, and analgesics ... Osteopathic medicine is similar to allopathic medicine, but places a greater emphasis on the importance of the musculoskeletal system and normal body mechanics as central to good health. To support this emphasis, more basic research and controlled trials for the effectiveness of manipulation are needed."
And from http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/QA/osteo.html
David E. Jones Ph.D.
"I spent 12 years teaching basic sciences and 7 years as an associate dean at the an osteopathic medical school ... The department of manipulative medicine was completely segregated from the other departments, both in principles and in practice. The osteopathic faculty members in the standard medical departments neither practiced nor taught OMT. Nor did the OMT faculty practice or teach the standard forms of medicine. It was as if OMT was a freestanding form of health care ... one that, unlike other departments, was not necessarily bound by scientific foundations. Being a basic science researcher, I have made attempts to set up an animal model to objectively test the claim that certain harmful forms of sympathetic nerve traffic could be altered by spinal OMT. However, I never received any support from the osteopathic faculty in seeing such a study completed."
"Although many osteopaths use manipulation as an adjunct to treat many illnesses, there are no large controlled trials of the effectiveness of manipulation for conditions other than lower back pain ... Studies that have shown positive effects of manipulation for back pain have been criticized for not adequately controlling placebo effect. Doran and Newell65 concluded after studying 456 patients that although a few patients responded rapidly to manipulation, there were no significant differences compared with physiotherapy, corsets, and analgesics ... Osteopathic medicine is similar to allopathic medicine, but places a greater emphasis on the importance of the musculoskeletal system and normal body mechanics as central to good health. To support this emphasis, more basic research and controlled trials for the effectiveness of manipulation are needed."
And from http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/QA/osteo.html
David E. Jones Ph.D.
"I spent 12 years teaching basic sciences and 7 years as an associate dean at the an osteopathic medical school ... The department of manipulative medicine was completely segregated from the other departments, both in principles and in practice. The osteopathic faculty members in the standard medical departments neither practiced nor taught OMT. Nor did the OMT faculty practice or teach the standard forms of medicine. It was as if OMT was a freestanding form of health care ... one that, unlike other departments, was not necessarily bound by scientific foundations. Being a basic science researcher, I have made attempts to set up an animal model to objectively test the claim that certain harmful forms of sympathetic nerve traffic could be altered by spinal OMT. However, I never received any support from the osteopathic faculty in seeing such a study completed."
Deuce...Why must you continually post those quotes over and over again...I'm soooo tired of reading them. Just because there hasn't been any clinical research done to prove the effectiveness of OMM doesn't mean that it doesn't work.
Can you explain why when an MD has a newborn that is unable to breastfeed they automatically put the child on formula. A DO on the otherhand will manipulate 2 or 3 of the cranial nerves to stimulate the sucking and swallowing mechanisms thereby in many cases, enabling the child to breastfeed which as we all know is very important for them.
Going beyond this, for some reason people seem to equate D.O. with Manipulation and only manipulation. D.O.'s are physicians that do EVERYTHING an M.D. does with the exception that they also get additional training in the field of OMM. So your knocking the field as a whole b/c of the OMM aspect? That doesn't make sense.
Do you insist on insulting D.O.'s because you don't recieve as much training as your counterpart? People always knock others when they feel threatened by them. Why not realize that both M.D.'s and D.O.'s can be great Dr.'s and judge only the individual person whichever field they choose...instead of the field itself?
Can you explain why when an MD has a newborn that is unable to breastfeed they automatically put the child on formula. A DO on the otherhand will manipulate 2 or 3 of the cranial nerves to stimulate the sucking and swallowing mechanisms thereby in many cases, enabling the child to breastfeed which as we all know is very important for them.
Going beyond this, for some reason people seem to equate D.O. with Manipulation and only manipulation. D.O.'s are physicians that do EVERYTHING an M.D. does with the exception that they also get additional training in the field of OMM. So your knocking the field as a whole b/c of the OMM aspect? That doesn't make sense.
Do you insist on insulting D.O.'s because you don't recieve as much training as your counterpart? People always knock others when they feel threatened by them. Why not realize that both M.D.'s and D.O.'s can be great Dr.'s and judge only the individual person whichever field they choose...instead of the field itself?
