Lets be HONEST..Rad Onc is overrated.

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Howard7

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First of all I think rad onc is an amazing field. However I get the feeling this fuel of good will is among residents and med students that valu lifestyle and high compensation.

There are so many cons of rad onc no one talks about such as being at the mercy of heme oncs, scut work that requires doing everything that an attending should be doing.

Also you are severely limited on where you can live.

Lets be honest among attendings and practicing rad oncs is it possible that rad onc is over rated. If all jobs in rad onc had weekend work and average compensation would people actually go into rad onc.

If you could snap your fingers how many would rather do dermatology without the depressed patient base of cancer patients.

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Every consultant is at the mercy of referring physicians. It's not a bad thing - you provide a service to the doctor and the patient.

The money and lifestyle are good, but I just took a job and I know that I'm making significantly less than my friends in fields like radiology and anesthesiology. It is such great work, though, so I don't mind.

Without being a superstar, I was able to obtain a position in one of the most competitive markets. It's just a matter of luck and timing, as far as what markets will be hiring at any given time and you can't worry about it too much.

And there is no question I'd rather do this than dermatology, even for less money. I'd do this rather than any other specialty. That's the whole point - this is a great population to work with, so gracious and interesting.

I think you are just throwing a grenade.

S
 
If you could snap your fingers how many would rather do dermatology without the depressed patient base of cancer patients.

Different strokes for different folks.

Some people enjoy working with this patient population and making a profound difference in their lives. And some people would prefer a different patient population.
 
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First of all I think rad onc is an amazing field. However I get the feeling this fuel of good will is among residents and med students that valu lifestyle and high compensation.

There are so many cons of rad onc no one talks about such as being at the mercy of heme oncs, scut work that requires doing everything that an attending should be doing.

Also you are severely limited on where you can live.

Lets be honest among attendings and practicing rad oncs is it possible that rad onc is over rated. If all jobs in rad onc had weekend work and average compensation would people actually go into rad onc.

If you could snap your fingers how many would rather do dermatology without the depressed patient base of cancer patients.

Usually I would say, "Don't feed the troll." However, sometimes these threads end up being quite entertaining.

Yes, you are at the mercy of your referring physicians (heme/onc, surg onc, etc.)

Yes, you are often limited geographically.

No, radiation oncology is not over-rated. It is accurately represented as one of the most desirable fields in all of medicine.

No, I would not rather be in Dermatology. I would estimate that 95% of those in RadOnc would concur.

No, most patients are not depressed. In fact, in my experience the patients that we see are grateful, hopeful and a pleasure to work with (on the whole...we are all familiar with some of the Head & Neck patients who don't quite fit this description).

Yes, I am only an MS-IV. However, I feel that I have seen enough of the field to know that many of your statements are simply designed to generate dramatic responses and defenses of our field (i.e. trolling on your behalf). I hope to have the honor and privilege to join this field that is full of incredibly intelligent individuals that are continually pushing the envelope (from a research perspective) to improve patient outcomes and advance the field.
 
Make a list of pros and cons of radiology and rad onc.. once you do most of the intelligent people will pick rads :)
 
Make a list of pros and cons of radiology and rad onc.. once you do most of the intelligent people will pick rads :)

I dunno, radonc escaped the proposed CMS cuts, radiology didn't.

Ultimately if you're looking at the field that's safest from these cuts, it would be derm. I feel it's because derm is more of a "niche" field with more cosmetic applications.
 
And there is no question I'd rather do this than dermatology, even for less money. I'd do this rather than any other specialty. That's the whole point - this is a great population to work with, so gracious and interesting.

I think you are just throwing a grenade.

S

:thumbup:

This is very true. Me and many I have talked to feel the same way. I would be more bored doing derm than even rads.
 
Howard7, I think you are very mistaken - a lot of us are smart enough to do any other field, but we chose this field probably not because of its competitiveness, but feel strongly that we should do something for the cancer patients = diseases with serious consequences if left untreated. In some European countries, rad onc attendings have inpatient responsibilities, etc. (not all weekends are free). Can't speak for everyone on this forum, but if I were to take a 50% cut of my future pay (that's effectively going into academics), I would still gladly do it. The technology is very amazing in this field and is only getting better. I like to think of myself doing "smart work" (thinking through projects and doing research) instead of doing "scut work" which could be quite common in other fields.
 
First of all I think rad onc is an amazing field. However I get the feeling this fuel of good will is among residents and med students that valu lifestyle and high compensation.

There are so many cons of rad onc no one talks about such as being at the mercy of heme oncs, scut work that requires doing everything that an attending should be doing.

Also you are severely limited on where you can live.

Lets be honest among attendings and practicing rad oncs is it possible that rad onc is over rated. If all jobs in rad onc had weekend work and average compensation would people actually go into rad onc.

If you could snap your fingers how many would rather do dermatology without the depressed patient base of cancer patients.

Make a list of pros and cons of radiology and rad onc.. once you do most of the intelligent people will pick rads :)

Let me guess, either you two were unable to get into rad onc or there's someone in your class whom you don't like that's going into rad onc. :D

As a former physicist, I appreciate the depth of the rad onc field. I'm highly interested in dosimetry and radiation physics. There is NO other field out there that has the same combination of treating cancer, patient contact, medical physics, dosimetry, radiation physics, radiation biology, and salary/lifestyle.

So, I guess it depends why you're in the field. If you just want lifestyle/salary then sure, go rads or derm. But if you actually want to make a difference while doing something intellectually stimulating that involves physics and radbio, then I'm going with rad onc all the way! :smuggrin:
 
Make a list of pros and cons of radiology and rad onc.. once you do most of the intelligent people will pick rads :)

"p53" is an interesting username...for someone so into radiology.
 
Rad Onc is a fascinating field; unfortunately it is about to run headfirst into a fiscal brick wall. I love the field and considered it (even if the chair at my home institution was a bit of a douche)... that is until I became a student of healthcare policy, financing, and the strengthening headwinds we all face. Radiology will be equally hammered; in fact, if I were a radiologist, I would be quite worried. Sooner or later corporate interests will get their malignant little tentacles into this and assrape the labor in this field too -- and any specialty unduly beholden unto a hospital or major referring provider will be at their mercy.
 
I usually ignore anything on SDN having to do with “which field is better” or the “rating of a medical specialty” mainly since I don’t think any field can be declared globally better than others, and I am not familiar with the rating system that medical students are referring to when they discussing something being “over or under rated”. A peer reviewed citation would help (please note the sarcasm in that comment). Despite my otherwise usual indifference to these posts, this time I felt the need to chime in, mainly for any students reading this thread that may actually think, for a moment, the incredible field of Rad Onc is by any system “overrated.” I feel strongly otherwise, however I encourage each student to independently evaluate both fields with a separate rotation, then apply your own rating system to make your final decision. I will supply my logic as to why Rad Onc is far and away better in my rating system than diagnostic Rads.

Like the vast majority of Rad Onc candidates I too strongly considered diagnostic Rads, undoubtedly the two fields draw similar personalities, students into technology, passionate about medical imaging, and intrigued by minimally invasive and minimally toxic treatment modalities, and also drawn to salary and lifestyle (could not leave that out).

When starting rotations in the two fields I quickly was able to rule out diagnostic Radiology. The main reason I went to medical school was what I think is the reason most people decided to devote their lives to medicine, patient relationships and directly helping people. Of course there were many other reasons, however what keeps me motivated and passionate about medicine is the long lasting and meaningful patient relationships. Talking to a patients and their families about how you are going to help them beat breast cancer, or a brain tumor, or a lung nodule, etc. Treating them with compassion, and reassuring them of their prognosis, is incredibly rewarding. This can also be a very hard part of the field. Explaining to a patient they are going to die from their disease, or that more treatment will likely not be effective, is terribly challenging, and fuels my passion for research. Either way I feel I am living my dream of being a medical doctor.

As a diagnostic radiologist my assessment was your roll was more an observer, and technician, than actual caring medical doctor. Most of your day will consist of sitting in a dark room, making observations about a black and white image, then occasionally doing a procedure where you barely known anything about the patient, and never seem them again. There are virtually no patient relationships, and the traditional idea of being a caring doctor is gone. Seeing Rad Onc patients at 2-5 year follow up’s who are doing great, and disease free, is an amazingly rewarding experience putting Rad Onc already FAR above diagnostic rads on my rating system.

If this was not enough one of the other incredible rewarding aspects of Rad Onc is the emphasis on evidence based medicine central to the field, and the overwhelming need for research. Of course diagnostic rads involves research, and EBM, however the spectrum of available research and research type (ie basic science lab work, to new phase I trials, to large multicenter prospective randomized trials) pales in comparison to Rad Onc where this research dominates. This is what will keep the field incredible for the next 50+ years. This is also likely why Rad Onc draws far and away superior applicants to diagnostic rads, and has an unparalleled respect that is only growing in the cancer and medical community.

As for salary and lifestyle they are very similar for both fields and oddly around 100k higher than average salary in Derm. However this will be changing for diagnostic Rads, and changing minimally for Rad Onc (thanks ASTRO PAC). Rad Oncer’s do work very long days, however we generally have weekends free (note generally). WOW this came out long, I will cut this off now as I could continue, however I hope any student realizes that if you enjoy meaningful patient relationships, ground breaking research/trials, and actually feeling like a medical doctor in your daily work then steer clear of diagnostic Rads.

P.S. I agree with MOHS that diagnostic Rads will likely take a beating in the next 5 years, the ruling by CMS regarding Rad Onc has established an amazing precedent that will likely keep us safe for a while. However we could still be screwed by the ego of our socialist president that is willing to destroy American medicine to push his agenda forward. Wait, see, and vote is all we can do now.
 
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FYI, in the 2009 Charting the Outcomes Match document let us compare Dermatology to Rad Onc:

Derm
338 Positions offered
567 Applicants
1.7 Number of applicants per position

Rad Onc
156 Positions offered
179 Appicants
1.1 Number of applicants per position

Not very competitive. What else has 1.1 applicants/position? Internal Medicine and Pediatrics . . .

Just a bit of a reality check. Hard to call something over-rated when there are not exactly tons of applicants applying for every position.
 
Eh... It's a self-selecting group. 25% of those that matched have player-hating-degrees (such as yourself GF), the average step 1 is somewhere around 240. It is a high-achieving group, but I think that if people in the field were solely interested in money/lifestyle, I think rads and anesthesia offer (at this time) a little better deal. I'm pretty sure most rad-oncs actually like patient care/interaction, enjoy learning about/researching/treating malignancy, and many enjoy the utilization of the cool toys/high technology.

There is just so much patient care involved that I just don't see the similarity between dx-rads. 50-75% of the day is full-on patient interaction, some of it is serious stuff and some of it is utter nonsense, it has overlaps with other patient-care oriented fields - the patients you love and enjoying seeing every OTV and the years after, and the ones that you want to strangle because they're pissed they can't taste garlic any more even though you took care of their base of tongue CA. Derm is at least patient-care oriented, but it isn't really the same. I went to see one once. The resident saw me for about 10-15 minutes. The attending came in, didn't speak with me, looked at my rash, and agreed with the resident. They see 40 patients a day, but its in a different context.

The other comment about EBM is very true, as well. I did a medicine internship here at Pitt, and I didn't read/wasn't told to read any specific seminal journal articles the entire year. During my first year of rad onc, I read close to 200 papers, just to get a foundation. There is a clear difference during tumor board between the surgeons and the rad-oncs in terms of quoting literature - the surgeons just don't know it as well as we do (in general ... I'm sure there's a few out there that know their literature and ours, too). I'd say med-oncs know a fair amount, but usually not until a few years out (they don't have time to read during fellowship!). Also, because of our limited numbers, we generally have to know more sites (i.e. - in general practice, most of us treat everything that walks in, and even at academic centers people do multiple sites) than other oncologists.

All in all, I do think we're a bit overpaid. But that certainly isn't the reason to get into the field. Again - there are less competitive specialties in which you can make more/equal money.

-S
 
Actually the data on charting outcomes is misguiding. the total spots are not 156. Look at http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2009.pdf

The total spots were 141 + 15 ( for first year rad onc instead of a prelim yr). Of the 141, 5-7 spots were not truly available since some programs like duke, mt sinai pulled out of the match but their spots were still counted. So truly there were probably around 135-137 spots. I don't know why the charting outcomes decided to club the advanced and categorical spots together.

Secondly, the interesting piece of statistic is the avg step scores of people who did not match. derm and plastics is 232 followed by rad onc at 231 the only 3 specialties above 230. Lastly, look at the probability curve. Plastics, derm and rad onc are the most competitive.
 
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...but figured I'd have to weigh in, just in case an impressionable 2nd or 3rd year got the wrong idea.

First of all, comparing diagnostic radiology to radiation oncology is pretty much an apples and oranges situation. Yes, we both look at imaging. That's pretty much where the comparison ends. I know the interventional guys see patients, but the vast majority of radiologists don't see patients on a daily basis. Not the same with radonc, obviously, and this is a HUGE difference. THE difference.

Second, blanketly saying something is "overrated" doesn't really carry much water. For you, it might be, but we all have to decide what we want to do with the rest of our lives based on our own criteria. What were mine? I had three:

- It had to be intellectually interesting to ME (Derm, out, Ob/Gyn out, peds out). This one's what really solidified radonc for me. I've had a computer in my house since I was 4 years old, so the opportunity to treat cancer with technology? I get to use something called a linear accelerator? Sign me up.

- I wanted to do something that was important to the patients. Now, this one's a bit contentious, I understand. For many patients, the condition of their skin is very important, and their dermatologist's appointment follows. But, what I wanted to avoid was seeing patients and writing Rx's, just knowing they weren't going to follow instructions/take the medicine/etc. When you're taking care of cancer patients you become an intimate part of their lives in a very important time- for me, this meant a lot.

- Lifestyle. Not ashamed to admit it. This meant a combination being able to make a good living and having the time to enjoy it. Many fields offer this once you get into private practice. Some don't. Those, for me, were out.

Finally, an editorial, which may or may not have been solicited: If you're going into ANY field of medicine for the money, prepare for potential disappointment. Not guaranteed disappointment, but right now we have no idea what's going to happen in the next 5, 10, 15 years. For me, though, the financial crisis has put things into perspective. I still have a job, a good job, one that I love and that allows, and will always allow, me to provide for myself and my family. If you're one of those "money keeps score" kind of cats, then I'd be concerned that you may find being any kind of physician overrated.

That's all. Good luck to all the med students trying to decide what to do in the future, those trying to get into radonc, and the residents looking for jobs. Not an easy market right now, but jobs are out there.
 
OTN, thank you for your thoughtful posts. For those that do not have the scholastic achievement. Can you recommend other specialties that offer an intellectual field with good lifestyle after residency.

Anyone can chime in. I have resigned to the fact that rad onc is too much of a pipe dream with no research and average step scores with no honors.

So what other specialties offer intellectual stimulation with good lifestyle.

BtW, I dont mind working hard during training so will consider any field with post residency lifestyle.
 
OTN, thank you for your thoughtful posts. For those that do not have the scholastic achievement. Can you recommend other specialties that offer an intellectual field with good lifestyle after residency.

Anyone can chime in. I have resigned to the fact that rad onc is too much of a pipe dream with no research and average step scores with no honors.

So what other specialties offer intellectual stimulation with good lifestyle.

BtW, I dont mind working hard during training so will consider any field with post residency lifestyle.

Virtually all fields can offer a solid post-residency lifestyle. Search around the neurosurgery forum and you'll even find reports of neurosurgeons leading (similar, obviously not identical) lifestyles to that of a radiation oncologist. The question is, how much pay are you willing to surrender and where are you willing to relocate?

Money. Lifestyle. Location. It's usually a game of Pick Two.
 
okay...then what are the most intellectually stimulating fields inn your opininion..question is open to anyone.
 
okay...then what are the most intellectually stimulating fields inn your opininion..question is open to anyone.

I am basing the following comments solely on your self-assessment that you are not competitive enough for radiation oncology.

I would have to say Heme/Onc is a very intellectually stimulating field and one that is not a very difficult match. The last time that I checked, I believe the match rate for a Heme/Onc fellowship was 80-90% for U.S. grads. I believe that there are many on this particular forum (myself included) that would choose Heme/Onc if we could not match into radiation oncology. Best of luck in your future endeavors.
 
50-75% of the day is full-on patient interaction, some of it is serious stuff and some of it is utter nonsense, it has overlaps with other patient-care oriented fields - the patients you love and enjoying seeing every OTV and the years after, and the ones that you want to strangle because they're pissed they can't taste garlic any more even though you took care of their base of tongue CA.
-S

Just curious to know what areas you think are serious and what are utter nonsense? Think i have some idea but would be good to see how a resident puts it
 
I'd second the Heme/Onc mentioned earlier. Their lifestyle is good- usually no call- and, obviously, we're all going to find it intellectually stimulating.

I'd also reiterate what was said a few posts above. While you don't get this perspective in training, in acutality there are many fields of medicine which offer a good lifestyle in practice. You can always tailor your practice how you wish, though the caveat usually holds: busier = more money. You just have to decide how the law of diminishing returns works with your own income...
 
FYI, in the 2009 Charting the Outcomes Match document let us compare Dermatology to Rad Onc:

Derm
338 Positions offered
567 Applicants
1.7 Number of applicants per position

Rad Onc
156 Positions offered
179 Appicants
1.1 Number of applicants per position

Not very competitive. What else has 1.1 applicants/position? Internal Medicine and Pediatrics . . .

Just a bit of a reality check. Hard to call something over-rated when there are not exactly tons of applicants applying for every position.

Actually the data on charting outcomes is misguiding. the total spots are not 156. Look at http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2009.pdf

The total spots were 141 + 15 ( for first year rad onc instead of a prelim yr). Of the 141, 5-7 spots were not truly available since some programs like duke, mt sinai pulled out of the match but their spots were still counted. So truly there were probably around 135-137 spots. I don't know why the charting outcomes decided to club the advanced and categorical spots together.

Secondly, the interesting piece of statistic is the avg step scores of people who did not match. derm and plastics is 232 followed by rad onc at 231 the only 3 specialties above 230. Lastly, look at the probability curve. Plastics, derm and rad onc are the most competitive.

]

so 13 US senior applicants did not match, according to this
http://residency.wustl.edu/medadmin/resweb.nsf/L/150A2D66322D736186256F8F0074E2B6?OpenDocument

however here it says 21 US seniors did not match
http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2009v3.pdf

Does this mean 8 US seniors were able to successfully scramble into open rad onc spots? Am I understanding these stats correctly?

this is pretty encouraging, i dont think I'm in the bottom 13 applicants nationally :laugh:
 
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