Let's define "Gunner"

[baconshrimps]

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wut

Looks like someone got short-changed on their salary 😛

 

[username456789]

Looks like someone got short-changed on their salary 😛

Nah, just SDN perpetuating a misnomer as usual.

 

[baconshrimps]

Nah, just SDN perpetuating a misnomer as usual.

I was being facetious.
My understanding is that derm is competitive because of lifestyle, not salary. Compare that to say, cardiology, which has kind of an annoying lifestyle depending on the subspecialty, but typically tops out at around $400K.

 

[username456789]

I was being facetious.
My understanding is that derm is competitive because of lifestyle, not salary. Compare that to say, cardiology, which has kind of an annoying lifestyle depending on the subspecialty, but typically tops out at around $400K.

Yeah that's a lot more accurate. There are opportunities to maximize your salary to a greater degree in specific niche markets (say, cosmetic clinic in Manhattan), but that's the kind of extreme outlier that people inexplicably like to focus on.

The money is good, but does not differ a lot from many/most medicine subspecialties. The largest difference is in quality of life (hours worked, severity/acuity of call, pleasant interactions with relatively healthy patients, minimal hospital BS, etc).

 

[crimsonkid85]

I was being facetious.
My understanding is that derm is competitive because of lifestyle, not salary. Compare that to say, cardiology, which has kind of an annoying lifestyle depending on the subspecialty, but typically tops out at around $400K.

And while an internist earns an average of $191,525, a dermatologist earns an average of $390,274, according to an annual survey conducted by the Medical Group Management Association, whose membership includes more than 21,000 managers of medical practices. Dermatologists who specialize in cosmetic treatments or in skin-cancer operations can earn much more.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/19/fashion/19beauty.html?pagewanted=all

this being 2008 dollars, I wouldn't say it TOPS OUT at $400K.

Also I found this fascinating article on patient tiering based on OOP vs reimbursed procedures:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/28/us/28beauty.html?pagewanted=all

 

[Mad Jack]

Dude that's not gunning, that's medical admissions, you are competing with someone, it could even be the person next to you.

IMO, you can't consider someone a gunner unless there is an intentional act of sabotage.

I disagree. While it is a bit of a competition, you are never competing with the guy sitting next to you in class. He's one of 40k applicants in the pool, and will not be the dude stealing your seat come interview season. He might not make it, might not even put in an app at your desired school, and certainly won't be interviewing the same day as you. When people get competitive with their classmates, it is pointless and totally gunning most of the time. I cheered on and supported my classmates, because I knew we could ALL get As if we put in the effort, and that many of us could get into medical school if we tried. Competition would be pointless.

Did love seeing the competitive people get upset when I'd outscore them though, because I always came off as a slacker that didn't give a damn. It's not that I'm happy I did better than them, it's that I'm happy they get to see that their competitiveness has given them no advantage and that there is another way. A competitive person that scores at the top of their class will only be positively reinforcing their own behavior.

 

[baconshrimps]

And while an internist earns an average of $191,525, a dermatologist earns an average of $390,274, according to an annual survey conducted by the Medical Group Management Association, whose membership includes more than 21,000 managers of medical practices. Dermatologists who specialize in cosmetic treatments or in skin-cancer operations can earn much more.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/19/fashion/19beauty.html?pagewanted=all

this being 2008 dollars, I wouldn't say it TOPS OUT at $400K.

For someone who went to Harvard, that reading comprehension isn't doing so hot is it?
I said most subspecialties in CARDIOLOGY top out at around $400K.

 

[username456789]

And while an internist earns an average of $191,525, a dermatologist earns an average of $390,274, according to an annual survey conducted by the Medical Group Management Association, whose membership includes more than 21,000 managers of medical practices. Dermatologists who specialize in cosmetic treatments or in skin-cancer operations can earn much more.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/19/fashion/19beauty.html?pagewanted=all

this being 2008 dollars, I wouldn't say it TOPS OUT at $400K.

Also I found this fascinating article on patient tiering based on OOP vs reimbursed procedures:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/28/us/28beauty.html?pagewanted=all

The MGMA survey results are generally regarded as very skewed (towards describing compensation well above actual means/medians).

 

[baconshrimps]

The MGMA survey results are generally regarded as very skewed (towards describing compensation well above actual means/medians).

Yeah, those numbers probably more accurately reflect those in private practice. Definitely not an index for the majority of working physicians in the US.

 

[Mad Jack]

This salary talk is unrelated to the issue at hand. We have serious work to do, ladies and gentlemen, let's get back to defining gunners!

 

[crimsonkid85]

For someone who went to Harvard, that reading comprehension isn't doing so hot is it?
I said most subspecialties in CARDIOLOGY top out at around $400K.

Duly noted. Although if I had a nickel for every time someone pointed out a mistake I made on an anonymous forum, I wouldn't have to do medicine at all, lol.

And don't worry--whatever lapses in reading comprehension I may have, I assure you I have far fewer lapses in good judgement compared to you to make up for it. Plus, English isn't even my first language. 🤣

 

[baconshrimps]

Duly noted. Although if I had a nickel for every time someone pointed out a mistake I made on an anonymous forum, I wouldn't have to do medicine at all, lol.

And don't worry--whatever lapses in reading comprehension I may have, I assure you I have far fewer lapses in good judgement compared to you to make up for it. Plus, English isn't even my first language. 🤣

Said like a true Harvard Alum.

 

[crimsonkid85]

The MGMA survey results are generally regarded as very skewed (towards describing compensation well above actual means/medians).

by whom? all surveys suffer the impact of responder bias. one can always take the results of the survey in context. aka if you can't take the absolute result at face value, you can still take the relative value as a source of information comparing one specialty to the other in the context of the same MGMA survey.

 

[username456789]

This salary talk is unrelated to the issue at hand. We have serious work to do, ladies and gentlemen, let's get back to defining gunners!

There's really no debate. The definition falls in line with "someone who intentionally sabotages his or her peers in order to get ahead." It does not mean "someone who works really hard and succeeds", unless the caveat there is "succeeds at harming others."

 

[Mad Jack]

There's really no debate. The definition falls in line with "someone who intentionally sabotages his or her peers in order to get ahead." It does not mean "someone who works really hard and succeeds", unless the caveat there is "succeeds at harming others."

I'm still pushing the idea that they don't necessarily have to harm others. If they're extremely competitive and take joy in the failure of others, even if they didn't cause said failure, I still think they're a gunner.

 

[crimsonkid85]

I'm still pushing the idea that they don't necessarily have to harm others. If they're extremely competitive and take joy in the failure of others, even if they didn't cause said failure, I still think they're a gunner.

this reminds me of this:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/work-in...reason-youre-jealous-of-your-friends-success/

 

[StraightDave]

Gunners are those irritating kids in class that are hyper fixated on the lecture and hyper competitive with their other classmates. They are annoying because they typically abstain from offering their lowly classmates help and they would rather die than see someone else do better than them.

Generally I don't define gunner by their success. I've seen tons of gunners who are dumb as rocks....but they think highly of themselves and are generally too intense to have a pleasant conversation with.

People hate premeds because a lot of them are like this. No offense... But I majored in the humanities to avoid premeds as much as possible. It worked perfectly

 

[knv2u]

Nah, just SDN perpetuating a misnomer as usual.

Yeah that's a lot more accurate. There are opportunities to maximize your salary to a greater degree in specific niche markets (say, cosmetic clinic in Manhattan), but that's the kind of extreme outlier that people inexplicably like to focus on.

The money is good, but does not differ a lot from many/most medicine subspecialties. The largest difference is in quality of life (hours worked, severity/acuity of call, pleasant interactions with relatively healthy patients, minimal hospital BS, etc).

I gave a huge range as an estimate. $400k doesn't sound far off, and the premise is still the same: high pay for the workload (defined as the number of hours per week) even if you wanted to argue that the true yearly salary is a bit lower.

 

[Law2Doc]

I'm still pushing the idea that they don't necessarily have to harm others. If they're extremely competitive and take joy in the failure of others, even if they didn't cause said failure, I still think they're a gunner.

I think they need to take some sort of overt action to compromise a relationship to actually be a gunner. Quietly being pleased with the failure of others is in their character but not really a gunner-defining component. Now if they are taking joy that a classmate did poorly due to lack of sleep, as he was up all night answering the door for late night food deliveries "somebody" sent over, that's more what we are talking about.

 

[kittykattat]

I think they need to take some sort of overt action to compromise a relationship to actually be a gunner. Quietly being pleased with the failure of others is in their character but not really a gunner-defining component. Now if they are taking joy that a classmate did poorly due to lack of sleep, as he was up all night answering the door for late night food deliveries "somebody" sent over, that's more what we are talking about.

Haha no damn gunner better do that to me in med school! So what about someone who refuses to help or share resources with classmates but takes help and resources from others? Not exactly intentionally sabotaging others but certainly intentionally and selfishly trying to give yourself an edge over the competition.... I feel like this would count as gunner

 

[Psai]

Haha no damn gunner better do that to me in med school! So what about someone who refuses to help or share resources with classmates but takes help and resources from others? Not exactly intentionally sabotaging others but certainly intentionally and selfishly trying to give yourself an edge over the competition.... I feel like this would count as gunner

No because you aren't obligated to help others even if they help you although it's probably the right thing to do.

 

[fuzzytoad]

Unless you have a Merriam-Webster dictionary definition to back those claims (you can't because it's slang), don't call other people's opinions incorrect. You can have your definition but you can't say others are wrong.

Mirriam-webster doesn't actually create definitions per se... dictionaries exist only to document commonly accepted definitions for words. Definitions that societies create. It's your prerogative to create whatever definition you want for whatever word you want, but shouldn't be surprised if people unintentionally find your calling them a gunner insulting because "it's my own definition and I do what I want".

Also: when did it ever become a bad thing to be competitive? You guys fought a cold war for that right.

 

[sourdoughllama]

Mirriam-webster doesn't actually create definitions per se... dictionaries exist only to document commonly accepted definitions for words. Definitions that societies create. It's your prerogative to create whatever definition you want for whatever word you want, but shouldn't be surprised if people unintentionally find your calling them a gunner insulting because "it's my own definition and I do what I want".

Also: when did it ever become a bad thing to be competitive? You guys fought a cold war for that right.

Yeah exactly, there isn't a definition on there. So there is no official definition. I'm not about to go redefining words that are already in the dictionary. But when your best source for a definition for a word is urban dictionary, you shouldn't be going around telling people they are wrong. I'm not surprised people get offended either? I think most people see gunner as a negative word. I was just saying there are different definitions of the same word and by saying "in reality" or "people incorrectly say" when there is no set definition is not justified. Clearly there are others on this thread that share my definition of gunner. Anyway, this thread will not yield very good results. What do you expect the definition of gunner to be from a neurotic, over eager pre-med forum?

 

[Law2Doc]

Yeah exactly, there isn't a definition on there. So there is no official definition. I'm not about to go redefining words that are already in the dictionary. But when your best source for a definition for a word is urban dictionary, you shouldn't be going around telling people they are wrong. I'm not surprised people get offended either? I think most people see gunner as a negative word. I was just saying there are different definitions of the same word and by saying "in reality" or "people incorrectly say" when there is no set definition is not justified. Clearly there are others on this thread that share my definition of gunner. Anyway, this thread will not yield very good results. What do you expect the definition of gunner to be from a neurotic, over eager pre-med forum?

The word gunner has been around (as a negative) literally for quite a few decades. People were taking issues with gunners even before you were in grade school. The definition is an established nd defined part of the professional school vernacular even if you don't feel it was defined in the appropriate publication.

This is also the reason a thread by a premed saying "let's define gunner" is absurd. This isn't a new term, it's older than they are.

 

[sourdoughllama]

The word gunner has been around (as a negative) literally for quite a few decades. People were taking issues with gunners even before you were in grade school. The definition is an established nd defined part of the professional school vernacular even if you don't feel it was defined in the appropriate publication.

This is also the reason a thread by a premed saying "let's define gunner" is absurd. This isn't a new term, it's older than they are.

Ok? I'm not the only one with definitions differing from what you consider "an established and defined part of the professional school vernacular." If it's so obviously set there should be no disagreements, yet here we are. And until you can show me some appropriate publications, I don't know why anyone would be inclined to change their definitions?

Also words change with time. Old vs new term is irrelevant

 

[Psai]

"until you can show me some appropriate publications" lol
No. You are wrong. Accept it and move on.

It's like chiropractors calling themselves physicians or pharmacists calling themselves doctor. That's not how it works. You don't get to just change the meaning of words.

 

[Law2Doc]

Ok? I'm not the only one with definitions differing from what you consider "an established and defined part of the professional school vernacular." If it's so obviously set there should be no disagreements, yet here we are. And until you can show me some appropriate publications, I don't know why anyone would be inclined to change their definitions?

Also words change with time. Old vs new term is irrelevant

I'm saying the word definition never changed. It's the same as calling someone a "fascist". You don't mean they have that ideology, you are using the word to jokingly cast aspersions. But fascist retains it original definition. Similarly when you joke and say that guy is uch a gunner, you are jokingly casting aspersions but the underlying word retains it's definition. But I guess my point is Thi is a word that has been in use since 1970s so coming now and saying it's not defined in an "appropriate" resource (according to you) is pretty presumptuous.

 

[sourdoughllama]

.

 

[Mad Jack]

Said like a true Harvard Alum.

As the old saying goes, "You can tell a Harvard man. But you can't tell him much!"

Mirriam-webster doesn't actually create definitions per se... dictionaries exist only to document commonly accepted definitions for words. Definitions that societies create. It's your prerogative to create whatever definition you want for whatever word you want, but shouldn't be surprised if people unintentionally find your calling them a gunner insulting because "it's my own definition and I do what I want".

Also: when did it ever become a bad thing to be competitive? You guys fought a cold war for that right.

Being competitive is fine. It's when you are a competitive dick about things or delight in the failure of others that it is wrong. The best man should win, fairly, and should take joy in their victory, not delight in the defeat of their competitors. Gunners are basically just bad sports that never learned the lesson of "it's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game" as a kid.

 

[Redpancreas]

There are hundreds of threads on the meaning of gunner. The OP didn't need to start a new one, and premeds on SDN aren't going to redefine the term. A gunner is a person who compromises relationships to get ahead professionally. It is not the person who just works hard and does well. In fact a gunner might not work particularly hard and might never be toward the top of his class. It not the guy who studies to get A's, it's the guy who tries to make it harder for his classmates to do better than him. In short, a jerk. You don't want to be a Gunner.

now there are people here and elsewhere who throw the term around as a joking pejorative, "oh he's such a gunner", as an antonym for "slacker", much like a few decades ago you might call someone a "fascist" or a "commie" -- you don't really mean that in the definitional sense. That's what's being adopted in these videos here -- the playful mis-use of the term. But a real gunner is not this. It's the guy who wants to be the top if his class not by studying hard but by causing everyone else in the class to do poorly.

You usually dont see who is the gunner in your med school class until the clinical years of med school. He's the guy who reads up on your patients to make it look like you don't know your patients very well on rounds. If you give a presentation he's the guy who asks hard questions you can't answer, just to undermine you. He's the guy who is quick to volunteer you for unsavory jobs -- have Bobby do that DRE -- I did one last week. In law school it was the guy who ripped the pages out of a book on reserve in the library so half the class couldn't complete an assignment. So basically nobody you'd want to emulate.

Sorry @Law2Doc
I didn't see anything with the terms "define" and "gunner" (edit: but now I do...lol, was in a hurry when typing it in) so I just made one because the term was being used a lot.
I liked your definition though and you explained things well.

EDIT: Never mind about my disagreement, I wasn't reading carefully enough.

 

[fuzzytoad]

Being competitive is fine. It's when you are a competitive dick about things or delight in the failure of others that it is wrong. The best man should win, fairly, and should take joy in their victory, not delight in the defeat of their competitors. Gunners are basically just bad sports that never learned the lesson of "it's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game" as a kid.

Exactly.

My point is that I suspect the shift toward gunner being a catch-all term for all competitive students is due to a negative perception of competitiveness as a whole, propagated by the actions of a subset of that group. Nothing new, but mixing "gunner" with "competitive" is just adding to this problem.

 

[DermViser]

Eh I'd say withholding help from someone if asked is almost as bad as sabotaging them, still gunning in my book.

Other people are not your personal tutors. Man up.

 

[DermViser]

"until you can show me some appropriate publications" lol
No. You are wrong. Accept it and move on.

It's like chiropractors calling themselves physicians or pharmacists calling themselves doctor. That's not how it works. You don't get to just change the meaning of words.

Sourdoughllama, would fit in perfectly with the NPs (DNPs), who seem to like changing the meaning of words a lot to fit their agenda.

*Meaning of the word "doctor"
*Saying their practicing "nursing", when they're really practicing "medicine"
*Saying they're more "holistic", etc.

 

[Psai]

Agree to disagree



Can you stop with these garbage posts? Chiropractors and doctors have clearly defined roles which can be looked up in any website or dictionary. Stop with these condescending and embarrassing posts without proper reasoning. Like I said, if you can't cough up a proper definition defined by a reputable source, stop with the "lol" and "you are wrong." Your posts have been eye sores on this thread.

You are really obsessed with dictionaries. And yes, websites tend not to be my go-to source for legitimate information.

 

[fuzzytoad]

I think he must of been one of those who were told as a child that the meaning of words came from dictionaries.

 

[sourdoughllama]

Sourdoughllama, would fit in perfectly with the NPs (DNPs), who seem to like changing the meaning of words a lot to fit their agenda.

*Meaning of the word "doctor"
*Saying their practicing "nursing", when they're really practicing "medicine"
*Saying they're more "holistic", etc.

I really have no agenda here.

(And dude your grammar makes the post a little hard to read lol)

 

[sourdoughllama]

I think he must of been one of those who were told as a child that the meaning of words came from dictionaries.

I definitely was

 

[XmedBarney]

Ok? I'm not the only one with definitions differing from what you consider "an established and defined part of the professional school vernacular." If it's so obviously set there should be no disagreements, yet here we are. And until you can show me some appropriate publications, I don't know why anyone would be inclined to change their definitions?

Also words change with time. Old vs new term is irrelevant

Umm no. Could it be because aren't yet a part of the profession? This is like reappropriating a technical term used in a technical field and then asking the professionals in that field to adjust to your new definition of it.

 

[sourdoughllama]

Umm no. Could it be because aren't yet a part of the profession? This is like reappropriating a technical term used in a technical field and then asking the professionals in that field to adjust to your new definition of it.

It's not a technical term in a technical field. It's slang used in undergrad and med school. But aight y'all, I don't care anymore if you agree or disagree! 🙂 Peace

 

[baconshrimps]

It's not a technical term in a technical field. It's slang used in undergrad and med school. But aight y'all, I don't care anymore if you agree or disagree! 🙂 Peace

Yeah, I was about to say something along these lines. Medical school is not a professional field. The practice of medicine is. As much as you are supposed to act like a professional, the truth remains that you are a student and you have not yet been admitted to the profession of medicine. The white coat ceremony is largely symbolic. You will be admitted to the profession when you get your medical liscence. If we're going to nitpick, lets at least be consistent. Kaythanksbye.

 

[ER BlueBlood]

Had some dorky Indian gunner try and talk to me this past weekend when I was out having drinks with friends. This person was trying so hard to socialize it was kind of sad. This wave of dorky Indian gunners that incessantly talk about fellowship and making big money seems omnipresent; kind of hilarious.

 

[fuzzytoad]

Had some dorky Indian gunner try and talk to me this past weekend when I was out having drinks with friends. This person was trying so hard to socialize it was kind of sad. This wave of dorky Indian gunners that incessantly talk about fellowship and making big money seems omnipresent; kind of hilarious.

But then this dorky Indian gunner becomes an HMS grad, surgeon, writes 3 books, and is an associate director at BWH.

 

[Mad Jack]

Umm no. Could it be because aren't yet a part of the profession? This is like reappropriating a technical term used in a technical field and then asking the professionals in that field to adjust to your new definition of it.

Most actual physicians that are in the profession don't use the term gunner anymore. Gunners exist, for the most part, only until training ends. Sure, they take on a different form afterward (i.e. dicks), but a guy undercutting people for his career once he's fully trained in a non-academic setting is certainly not a gunner.

 

[XmedBarney]

Had some dorky Indian gunner try and talk to me this past weekend when I was out having drinks with friends. This person was trying so hard to socialize it was kind of sad. This wave of dorky Indian gunners that incessantly talk about fellowship and making big money seems omnipresent; kind of hilarious.

What? Could you elaborate please?

 

[ER BlueBlood]

But then this dorky Indian gunner becomes an HMS grad, surgeon, writes 3 books, and is an associate director at BWH.

and your point is what?

 

[fuzzytoad]

and your point is what?

I'll let you piece that one together on your own.

 

[XmedBarney]

Pretty soon all the docs will be Bangalore MDs. They're taking over...Indian gunnery- you heard it here first

Had some dorky Indian gunner try and talk to me this past weekend when I was out having drinks with friends. This person was trying so hard to socialize it was kind of sad. This wave of dorky Indian gunners that incessantly talk about fellowship and making big money seems omnipresent; kind of hilarious.

Methinksyousaracistbitch

 

[ER BlueBlood]

Methinksyousaracistbitch

calm down twinkletoes, calling someone dorky isn't racist
go review your gen chem material. I forgot to check which forum this was in :/ later bawneY

 

[fuzzytoad]

calm down twinkletoes, calling someone dorky isn't racist
go review your gen chem material. I forgot to check which forum this was in :/ later bawneY

LOL. How are you even a doctor?

 

[DermViser]

Why would they rather say they're practicing "nursing" than "medicine"? Wouldn't it be the other way around?

Bc by saying that they would fall under the jurisdication of their state medical board (where they have no control) rather than their state nursing board.