Let's Post INfo & Statistics on Debt Here!!

[PHD12]

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Hi everyone:

I wanted to create a thread that compiles some statistics and information on debt for prospective students. There seems to be a ton of misinformation out there so I want to encourage people to post statistics and links to websites that can clarify issues for people (IBR, PSLR, median debts in different fields as a comparison).


Among students who earned graduate degrees in 2007-08:
• 26% had no education debt at all.
• 14% had undergraduate debt but no graduate school debt.
• 7% had borrowed $80,000 or more for graduate school.
• 5% had borrowed between $60,000 and $79,999.
(Source: The College Board)

One-quarter to one-third of borrowers at for-profit and public two-year institutions were making timely payments on their loans, and more than half of all borrowers in these sectors were delinquent or had already defaulted.
(Source: IHEP)

Median Debt Levels in various fields

•College degrees: As of Quarter 1 in 2012, the average student loan balance for all age groups is $24,301. About one-quarter of borrowers owe more than $28,000; 10% of borrowers owe more than $54,000; 3% owe more than $100,000; and less than 1%, or 167,000 people, owe more than $200,000. (Source: FRBNY)

Law School: The average education debt for law grads at private schools last year was nearly $125,000, while the average for grads of public law schools was more than $75,700, according to new figures released by the ABA (March 2012)

Medical School: 86 percent of medical school graduates had education debt, with a median amount of $162,000 in 2011 (AAMC).

MSW Programs: average debt of 26K (council on social work education, 2007)

PsyD/PhD in clinical psychology (taken from the APA doctorate employment survey, 2009): Graduates with a PsyD in clinical psychology reported a median debt level of $120,000 in 2009, up from $100,000 in 2007, $70,000 in 1999, and $53,000 in 1997 (Wicherski, Michalski, & Kohout, 2009; Kohout & Wicherski, 2003; Kohout & Wicherski, 1999). Clinical PhD recipients reported a median level of debt of $68,000, up from $55,000 in 2007 (Wicherski, Michalski, & Kohout, 2009). Graduates with PhDs in the research subfields had markedly lower median levels of debt by comparison ($38,500 across all research subfields). Almost 60% of PsyD graduates owed more than $100,000 compared to less than 17% of PhDs. These numbers are outdated by about 4 years so they can easily be 20% higher for 2013 graduates.

APPIC survey (2011) on PhD vs. PsyD Debt:

Ph.D. Median = $ 40,000
Mean = $ 53,160
S.D. = $ 58,932

Psy.D. Median = $ 120,000
Mean = $ 123,787
S.D. = $ 70,013

NOTE: Virtually all applicants will remain in training for
at least 18 months (including the internship year) after the
completion of this survey and may incur additional debt
during that period.

Mean debt load for Ph.D. students has increased
by $2,043 (4.0%) since 2008, while Psy.D. students have
experienced an increase in debt of $14,253 (13.0%) in
the same time period.

Percent of applicants with:

No debt Ph.D. = 24% Psy.D. = 8%
Debt <= $50,000 Ph.D. = 62% Psy.D. = 16%
Debt >= $100,000 Ph.D. = 21% Psy.D. = 70%
Debt >= $150,000 Ph.D. = 8% Psy.D. = 38%
Debt >= $200,000 Ph.D. = 3% Psy.D. = 17%

 

[Psychonergic]

Thanks for compiling this info. It's good to know how much of your soul you'll be selling to attend various programs. I'd like to think that citing this info could reduce some of the rhetoric in the Ph.D/Psy.D conversations, but if somebody must become part of 'x-profession', they will do it at whatever cost.

 

[ResearchGirlie]

PsyD/PhD in clinical psychology (taken from the APA doctorate employment survey, 2009): Graduates with a PsyD in clinical psychology reported a median debt level of $120,000 in 2009, up from $100,000 in 2007, $70,000 in 1999, and $53,000 in 1997 (Wicherski, Michalski, & Kohout, 2009; Kohout & Wicherski, 2003; Kohout & Wicherski, 1999). Clinical PhD recipients reported a median level of debt of $68,000, up from $55,000 in 2007 (Wicherski, Michalski, & Kohout, 2009). Graduates with PhDs in the research subfields had markedly lower median levels of debt by comparison ($38,500 across all research subfields).

Wow, the difference in debt in a decade or less is astounding. Students desperate to get in are really being taken advantage of by these money hungry schools.

I'm surprised at the level of debt for PhD recipients. I wonder how many of these include PhDs from FSPS or how much includes undergrad debt. I

 

[erg923]

One thing I was thinking of recently, which others have mentioned, but I'd like to get more opinion/talk of it going, is that this is an unsustainable model...from a financial standpoint. Not just for individuals, but for the government.

The IBR creates a system where, conceivably, a debtor could only pay back one quarter of what they borrowed before its forgiven. The governmental can afford to lose money, but how long will they want to do that for. Another 5 years, 10 years, 20 years? Eventually, the essential paying of for-profit institutions by the federal government will come to an end,

 

[ResearchGirlie]

Some of the phd debt is about poor decision making by those at funded programs, borrowing to supplement stipends. A friend of mine had 200k in debt from attending a fully funded program.

Wow. It's hard living off a grad student stipend but taking out that much in loans is just idiotic. I only know of a couple of people who took out loans in my fully funded program and that was during first year to help with moving costs and to have as a cushion. Maybe 10k or so?

 

[cara susanna]

The IBR creates a system where, conceivably, a debtor could only pay back one quarter of what they borrowed before its forgiven. The governmental can afford to lose money, but how long will they want to do that for. Another 5 years, 10 years, 20 years? Eventually, the essential paying of for-profit institutions by the federal government will come to an end,

I think it would help if student loans were dischargeable through bankruptcy. It would make those schools more accountable.

 

[pretzels]

Maybe this is due to my lacking of understanding of the distinctions, but I previously believed a phd could, theoretically, be as thoroughly one sided in clinical work instead of research as a psyd ( they might for example have gotten their phd and subsequently buried themselves in private practice to the exclusion of research).

If this is true, what, then, is the point in pursuing a degree like a psyd that will only limit you in what you could possibly do while simultaneously accruing a staggering amount of debt compared to PhDs? Why not just go for a phd in a balanced program like scientist practitioner with the plan of private practice?

 

[roubs]

Maybe this is due to my lacking of understanding of the distinctions, but I previously believed a phd could, theoretically, be as thoroughly one sided in clinical work instead of research as a psyd ( they might for example have gotten their phd and subsequently buried themselves in private practice to the exclusion of research).

If this is true, what, then, is the point in pursuing a degree like a psyd that will only limit you in what you could possibly do while simultaneously accruing a staggering amount of debt compared to PhDs? Why not just go for a phd in a balanced program like scientist practitioner with the plan of private practice?

It is a way better option, but a huge chunk of Psy.D. cohorts aren't competitive for clinically focused Ph.D. slots at established Universities.

 

[roubs]

One thing I was thinking of recently, which others have mentioned, but I'd like to get more opinion/talk of it going, is that this is an unsustainable model...from a financial standpoint. Not just for individuals, but for the government.

The IBR creates a system where, conceivably, a debtor could only pay back one quarter of what they borrowed before its forgiven. The governmental can afford to lose money, but how long will they want to do that for. Another 5 years, 10 years, 20 years? Eventually, the essential paying of for-profit institutions by the federal government will come to an end,

Agreed, and I saw some number crunching that actually the federal government could afford to pay everyone's tuition at public universities if they stopped sending dollars to private ones. People who think IBR is here to stay should really think twice. It will really suck if people lose their ability to enroll in IBR when they are in the middle of a $200-300k program.

 

[JeyRo]

i think it would help if student loans were dischargeable through bankruptcy. It would make those schools more accountable.

+1+1+1+1

 

[Pragma]

Some of the phd debt is about poor decision making by those at funded programs, borrowing to supplement stipends. A friend of mine had 200k in debt from attending a fully funded program.

Wow. It's hard living off a grad student stipend but taking out that much in loans is just idiotic. I only know of a couple of people who took out loans in my fully funded program and that was during first year to help with moving costs and to have as a cushion. Maybe 10k or so?

Well, I would agree that it isn't the best decision if you can afford not to. But at least for me, the cost of living in my area was so high that the stipend would maybe have covered rent, but that's about it. I suppose there are some ways I could have navigated around that (e.g., moved far away to a cheap neighborhood), but I wouldn't assume that stipends at all funded programs are livable.

Everyone in my cohort took out loans for the same reason, although how much people took out varied.

Looking back, I probably could have gotten by on less, but I can't imagine a scenario where not taking any loans out would have been an option. Maybe if mommy and daddy paid rent?

ETA: I think "living frugally" (depending on what you mean by that) is definitely possible. but I wouldn't judge someone for taking out loans necessarily. For example, I knew someone in my program who was a single parent. Loans covered their daycare costs. People do it for different reasons. But I definitely would advise people not to or to minimize it if you can, because you definitely will be paying for it!

 

[PHD12]

There is still an enormous difference in debt between the two degrees. In the APPIC survey, PhD students only had a median of 40K vs. 120K for the PsyD. The APPIC survey has a much larger sample size. Also, in the APPIC survey, the majority of PsyD students already have more than 150K in debt, and are still 18 months or more away from graduating. This also doesn't include the PsyD students who forgo APPIC.

I also agree with others that PhD students from free standing professional schools likely increased the debt load that is reported for PhD students.

Oh, and the debt levels DO NOT include undergraduate loans.

 

[ResearchGirlie]

Well, I would agree that it isn't the best decision if you can afford not to. But at least for me, the cost of living in my area was so high that the stipend would maybe have covered rent, but that's about it. I suppose there are some ways I could have navigated around that (e.g., moved far away to a cheap neighborhood), but I wouldn't assume that stipends at all funded programs are livable.

Everyone in my cohort took out loans for the same reason, although how much people took out varied.

Looking back, I probably could have gotten by on less, but I can't imagine a scenario where not taking any loans out would have been an option. Maybe if mommy and daddy paid rent?

ETA: I think "living frugally" (depending on what you mean by that) is definitely possible. but I wouldn't judge someone for taking out loans necessarily. For example, I knew someone in my program who was a single parent. Loans covered their daycare costs. People do it for different reasons. But I definitely would advise people not to or to minimize it if you can, because you definitely will be paying for it!

I live in CA so I understand the challenge of living in a very expensive area. I was lucky to save money in between undergrad and grad and then had a lot of luck with getting fellowships that pay a bit better. Not judging anyone for taking out loans with extenuating circumstance like having kids or living in expensive cities, but I think taking out 200,000 in debt on top of being full funded is indeed not a wise decision. If you're going to have to take out 200,000 in debt I'd say psych isn't the route to take regardless of whether you get into the most highly regarded fully funded phd program in your area or to the local FSPS diploma mill.

 

[Pragma]

I live in CA so I understand the challenge of living in a very expensive area. I was lucky to save money in between undergrad and grad and then had a lot of luck with getting fellowships that pay a bit better. Not judging anyone for taking out loans with extenuating circumstance like having kids or living in expensive cities, but I think taking out 200,000 in debt on top of being full funded is indeed not a wise decision. If you're going to have to take out 200,000 in debt I'd say psych isn't the route to take regardless of whether you get into the most highly regarded fully funded phd program in your area or to the local FSPS diploma mill.

Agreed!

 

[PhDMiss2014]

I thought I was doing pretty good, not taking out loans for undergrad or grad school. Until now. I maxed out my loans this past year in anticipation of matching and getting paid what amounts to little more then minimum wage in a very expensive city. And that's exactly what happened. With a stipend of a little over 20K in a city where I can't find a nice, safe, clean apartment for less then $1100 per month, I had few options. So yes I took out loans this year to supplement my stipend. Internships just do not pay a living wage. But at least i'm almost done, and my debt is minimal because I attended a fully funded PhD program.

 

[PsychScience]

Hi everyone:

I wanted to create a thread that compiles some statistics and information on debt for prospective students. There seems to be a ton of misinformation out there so I want to encourage people to post statistics and links to websites that can clarify issues for people (IBR, PSLR, median debts in different fields as a comparison).

I have to admit, I am surprised to see how many Ph.D's still leave with >$100,000 debt 😱

Are these unfunded Ph.D's? Poorly funded in expensive locations? Free-standing schools? That is a heck of a lot of money to be taking out if you are getting a stipend and tuition remission, even if it is an expensive city!

Edit: I don't know how I deleted this in my own post

Anyway, for those that don't know in the last year or so APA programs were encouraged to make a move toward disclosing their debt for students right along side their match statistics. I think this is a really important step, and Ihope that being forced to tell interested applicants upfront how much your students are required to pay or take out in loans after 4-5 years of schooling (And potentially still not matching) is a huge step towards increasing awareness about the steep cost associated with some programs... This really is "full disclosure"

Anyway, if you are looking for debt information by school it should be available on every single clinical psychology website on the same page as the match statistics. I believe it is listed under " Student Admissions, Outcomes, and Other Data" or some such thing!

 

[PsySeeker]

Hi everyone:

I wanted to create a thread that compiles some statistics and information on debt for prospective students. There seems to be a ton of misinformation out there so I want to encourage people to post statistics and links to websites that can clarify issues for people (IBR, PSLR, median debts in different fields as a comparison).


Among students who earned graduate degrees in 2007-08:
• 26% had no education debt at all.
• 14% had undergraduate debt but no graduate school debt.
• 7% had borrowed $80,000 or more for graduate school.
• 5% had borrowed between $60,000 and $79,999.
(Source: The College Board)

One-quarter to one-third of borrowers at for-profit and public two-year institutions were making timely payments on their loans, and more than half of all borrowers in these sectors were delinquent or had already defaulted.
(Source: IHEP)

Median Debt Levels in various fields

•College degrees: As of Quarter 1 in 2012, the average student loan balance for all age groups is $24,301. About one-quarter of borrowers owe more than $28,000; 10% of borrowers owe more than $54,000; 3% owe more than $100,000; and less than 1%, or 167,000 people, owe more than $200,000. (Source: FRBNY)

Law School: The average education debt for law grads at private schools last year was nearly $125,000, while the average for grads of public law schools was more than $75,700, according to new figures released by the ABA (March 2012)

Medical School: 86 percent of medical school graduates had education debt, with a median amount of $162,000 in 2011 (AAMC).

MSW Programs: average debt of 26K (council on social work education, 2007)

PsyD/PhD in clinical psychology (taken from the APA doctorate employment survey, 2009): Graduates with a PsyD in clinical psychology reported a median debt level of $120,000 in 2009, up from $100,000 in 2007, $70,000 in 1999, and $53,000 in 1997 (Wicherski, Michalski, & Kohout, 2009; Kohout & Wicherski, 2003; Kohout & Wicherski, 1999). Clinical PhD recipients reported a median level of debt of $68,000, up from $55,000 in 2007 (Wicherski, Michalski, & Kohout, 2009). Graduates with PhDs in the research subfields had markedly lower median levels of debt by comparison ($38,500 across all research subfields). Almost 60% of PsyD graduates owed more than $100,000 compared to less than 17% of PhDs. These numbers are outdated by about 4 years so they can easily be 20% higher for 2013 graduates.

APPIC survey (2011) on PhD vs. PsyD Debt:

Ph.D. Median = $ 40,000
Mean = $ 53,160
S.D. = $ 58,932

Psy.D. Median = $ 120,000
Mean = $ 123,787
S.D. = $ 70,013

NOTE: Virtually all applicants will remain in training for
at least 18 months (including the internship year) after the
completion of this survey and may incur additional debt
during that period.

Mean debt load for Ph.D. students has increased
by $2,043 (4.0%) since 2008, while Psy.D. students have
experienced an increase in debt of $14,253 (13.0%) in
the same time period.

Percent of applicants with:

No debt Ph.D. = 24% Psy.D. = 8%
Debt <= $50,000 Ph.D. = 62% Psy.D. = 16%
Debt >= $100,000 Ph.D. = 21% Psy.D. = 70%
Debt >= $150,000 Ph.D. = 8% Psy.D. = 38%
Debt >= $200,000 Ph.D. = 3% Psy.D. = 17%

This is excellent information, thank you for posting! I have a question, and forgive me if the answer is buried in the above, but do the Psy.D and PhD total debt numbers have undergrad piled on them or are they stand alone?

 

[pretzels]

It is a way better option, but a huge chunk of Psy.D. cohorts aren't competitive for clinically focused Ph.D. slots at established Universities.

I suppose that makes sense, but is that the main driving force? Competitiveness? Like I said, I've never looked into applying to any Psy.D.'s. I'd like to hear more views on this.

 

[snowcherries]

I suppose that makes sense, but is that the main driving force? Competitiveness? Like I said, I've never looked into applying to any Psy.D.'s. I'd like to hear more views on this.

I'd agree that competitiveness is the biggest factor--it requires a lot of planning and work to get the experience necessary to be competitive for funded programs. I'd also say that some students have a (sad/misguided) fear of research that leads them to rule out PhD programs.

 

[PHD12]

This is excellent information, thank you for posting! I have a question, and forgive me if the answer is buried in the above, but do the Psy.D and PhD total debt numbers have undergrad piled on them or are they stand alone?

This data DOES NOT include any undergraduate debt! I know, craziness.

 

[JeyRo]

I have to admit, I am surprised to see how many Ph.D's still leave with >$100,000 debt 😱

Are these unfunded Ph.D's? Poorly funded in expensive locations? Free-standing schools? That is a heck of a lot of money to be taking out if you are getting a stipend and tuition remission, even if it is an expensive city!

I'm guessing the majority of those PhD students with over 100K in debt were from unfunded PhD programs. Although they aren't as commonplace as unfunded PsyD programs, they exist - Palo Alto University and Alliant are a couple of FSPS that offer unfunded, mongo expensive PhDs.....

Some might be people from funded programs who just made stupid decisions, or maybe had gambling problems they funded with their student loan checks, who knows..... beyond me how a student at a funded program, even in a high cost of living area, would have to take out even a fraction of what the FSPS crowd does.....

 

[PsySeeker]

I'd agree that competitiveness is the biggest factor--it requires a lot of planning and work to get the experience necessary to be competitive for funded programs. I'd also say that some students have a (sad/misguided) fear of research that leads them to rule out PhD programs.

I selected a Psy.D program because I wanted an emphasis on developing clinical skills and strong support and opportunities for doing so. Certainly many (most?) Psy.D programs are not as competitive as decent PhD programs, but a few are quite competitive. The most competitive ones mirror many PhD programs by most standard metrics. Note I'm not talking about the mean metrics of each degree, just once again noting the huge divergence in Psy.D program quality.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

I selected a Psy.D program because I wanted an emphasis on developing clinical skills and strong support and opportunities for doing so. Certainly many (most?) Psy.D programs are not as competitive as decent PhD programs, but a few are quite competitive. The most competitive ones mirror many PhD programs by most standard metrics. Note I'm not talking about the mean metrics of each degree, just once again noting the huge divergence in Psy.D program quality.

I selected a PhD program because I wanted an emphasis on developing clinical skills and strong support and opportunities for doing so. And an equal emphasis on science and research while attending a program with excellent match rates that does not require loans.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

Can you provide the citation or link for this?

 

[undecidedman]

Clinical PhD recipients reported a median level of debt of $68,000, up from $55,000 in 2007 (Wicherski, Michalski, & Kohout, 2009). Graduates with PhDs in the research subfields had markedly lower median levels of debt by comparison ($38,500 across all research subfields).

I had a few things to add to the discussion.
I wanted to focus on above clause. Why is it that a Clinical PhD holds a little less than double the debt of other research PhD fields? What is driving the cost of a Clinical Psych PhD program?

Also a discussion on debt needs to have the discussion on income! Because if the income is fine, than the large debt numbers might be manageable. Though, if graduates are barely earning enough to pay for their needs + repayment of debt, we have a big problem! 😱

 

[PsychScience]

NOTE: Virtually all applicants will remain in training for
at least 18 months (including the internship year) after the
completion of this survey and may incur additional debt
during that period.

Mean debt load for Ph.D. students has increased
by $2,043 (4.0%) since 2008, while Psy.D. students have
experienced an increase in debt of $14,253 (13.0%) in
the same time period.

Percent of applicants with:

No debt Ph.D. = 24% Psy.D. = 8%
Debt <= $50,000 Ph.D. = 62% Psy.D. = 16%
Debt >= $100,000 Ph.D. = 21% Psy.D. = 70%
Debt >= $150,000 Ph.D. = 8% Psy.D. = 38%
Debt >= $200,000 Ph.D. = 3% Psy.D. = 17%

Is anyone else bothered by how APPIC presented these percentages in their survey results? I would actually love to see the Total N and subgroup N's used in these calculations- seems like it would provide a more complete picture and also clarify group membership.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I had a few things to add to the discussion.
I wanted to focus on above clause. Why is it that a Clinical PhD holds a little less than double the debt of other research PhD fields? What is driving the cost of a Clinical Psych PhD program?

Good question. My guesses as to contributing factors: 1) Unfunded PhD programs (as has already been mentioned), which don't exist or are less-prevalent in other disciplines; 2) at least at my grad program, humanities folks in general were often paid less overall than those in the more traditional STEM disciplines; 3) perhaps more career-changers go into clinical psych, with these folks being accustomed to a higher standard of living than is feasible on a $14k/year stipend; 4) unrealistic post-graduate income expectations, which could cause students to think, "it's ok, I'll be making enough to pay this back and then some"

 

[PHD12]

Is anyone else bothered by how APPIC presented these percentages in their survey results? I would actually love to see the Total N and subgroup N's used in these calculations- seems like it would provide a more complete picture and also clarify group membership.

Good question.

For this 2011 survey, the overall N was 2,731 (65% of all the applicants who applied for internship). Given that many of the APA surveys have a 20% response rate, this is pretty good. I think this survey is more accurate than the APA survey since the response rate is significantly higher.

Debt accrued to date as a consequence of attending
GRADUATE SCHOOL IN PSYCHOLOGY, including tuition, fees,
living expenses, books, etc. Includes all forms of
debt; does not include undergraduate debt or debt that
is unrelated to graduate training.

Ph.D. Median = $ 40,000
Mean = $ 53,160
S.D. = $ 58,932

Psy.D. Median = $ 120,000
Mean = $ 123,787
S.D. = $ 70,013


NOTE: Mean debt load for Ph.D. students has increased
by $2,043 (4.0%) since 2008, while Psy.D. students have
experienced an increase in debt of $14,253 (13.0%) in
the same time period.

Percent of applicants with:

No debt Ph.D. = 24% Psy.D. = 8%
Debt <= $50,000 Ph.D. = 62% Psy.D. = 16%
Debt >= $100,000 Ph.D. = 21% Psy.D. = 70%
Debt >= $150,000 Ph.D. = 8% Psy.D. = 38%
Debt >= $200,000 Ph.D. = 3% Psy.D. = 17%

Virtually all applicants will remain in training for
at least 18 months (including the internship year) after the
completion of this survey and may incur additional debt
during that period.


1. Training model of doctoral program:

PhD PsyD
Scientist-Practitioner 77% 5%
Practitioner-Scholar or 10% 80%
Scholar-Practitioner
Practitioner 0% 2%
Clinical Scientist 8% 1%
Local Clinical Scientist 0% 4%
Practitioner-Scientist 2% 5%
Practitioner Informed by Science 0% 3%
Other 2% 1%



4. Size of doctoral class (i.e., number of students who
began doctoral program in the same year as respondent)

PhD PsyD
1 - 10 students 74% 8%
11 - 20 students 17% 21%
21 - 30 students 4% 26%
31 - 40 students 2% 10%
41 - 50 students 2% 9%
51 or more 2% 26%

Sorry, can't get the PHD & PsyD part to align after copying and pasting.

 

[PHD12]

Good question. My guesses as to contributing factors: 1) Unfunded PhD programs (as has already been mentioned), which don't exist or are less-prevalent in other disciplines; 2) at least at my grad program, humanities folks in general were often paid less overall than those in the more traditional STEM disciplines; 3) perhaps more career-changers go into clinical psych, with these folks being accustomed to a higher standard of living than is feasible on a $14k/year stipend; 4) unrealistic post-graduate income expectations, which could cause students to think, "it's ok, I'll be making enough to pay this back and then some"

In the APPIC survey, 12% of the PHD respondents are from practitioner-scholar or practitioner-scientist programs, 2% from "other programs" (not client scientist or scientist-practitioner). I'm sure these practitioner PHD programs do not have funding.

 

[Pragma]

I find it pathetic/sad/infuriating that only 29% of PsyD respondents came from a class size of 20 or less. 26% from classes of 51 or more?!!

Standards, people. What a joke.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

Can you provide the citation or link for this?

bump

 

[PsySeeker]

bump

After your rather snobbish attempt at mocking my post you asked me for links. I suspect you are most interested in confirming your own biases, but perhaps I'm misinterpreting. What exactly would you like links to?

 

[erg923]

After your rather snobbish attempt at mocking my post you asked me for links. I suspect you are most interested in confirming your own biases, but perhaps I'm misinterpreting. What exactly would you like links to?

Relax. He was merely pointing out the common misconception that one should go to a psy.d program so that they can receive "a focus on clinical training"...as if Ph.D programs just throw you to the wolves and hope you come out a clinician... or some other such nonsense, whilst also acknowledging that he was driven by a passion for science and research-something that many do not believe can be removed from a "psychology."

 

[DynamicDidactic]

Relax. He was merely pointing out the common misconception that one should go to a psy.d program so that they can receive "a focus on clinical training"...as if Ph.D programs just throw you to the wolves and hope you come out a clinician... or some other such nonsense, whilst also acknowledging that he was driven by a passion for science and research-something that many do not believe can be removed from a "psychology."

thanks erg

 

[DynamicDidactic]

After your rather snobbish attempt at mocking my post you asked me for links. I suspect you are most interested in confirming your own biases, but perhaps I'm misinterpreting. What exactly would you like links to?

probably was snobbish, you know how the internets are.

It is very frustrating to keep hearing the consistent misrepresentation that PhD programs, even research heavy programs, somehow prepare you less for clinical work than PsyD programs.

Our best (indirect) metrics of clinical ability (i.e., EPPP pass rates and internship match) favor PhD programs. However, these are correlational findings and thus limiting.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

it looks like the numbers were taken from this survey
http://www.appic.org/Match/MatchStatistics/ApplicantSurvey2011Part1.aspx

just wanted to have this bookmarked in cases I need to cite it.

 

[Pragma]

It is very frustrating to keep hearing the consistent misrepresentation that PhD programs, even research heavy programs, somehow prepare you less for clinical work than PsyD programs.

Our best (indirect) metrics of clinical ability (i.e., EPPP pass rates and internship match) favor PhD programs. However, these are correlational findings and thus limiting.

Yep.

I think a more accurate representation of the Psy.D. vs. Ph.D. would be something like:

Psy.D. = Ph.D. - degree of emphasis on research

As a result of this, the minimum required time to completion of the program is usually about a year less.

It would not be accurate to say Psy.D. = Ph.D. + more clinical training given the available data out there.

However, I will say that I've noticed Psy.D. students do get some more elective clinical coursework in a lot of places. My electives were more limited because of the research courses (e.g., 4 stats courses). But it isn't like they are getting more clinical training outside of the classroom.

 

[PHD12]

Yep.

I think a more accurate representation of the Psy.D. vs. Ph.D. would be something like:

Psy.D. = Ph.D. - degree of emphasis on research

As a result of this, the minimum required time to completion of the program is usually about a year less.

It would not be accurate to say Psy.D. = Ph.D. + more clinical training given the available data out there.

However, I will say that I've noticed Psy.D. students do get some more elective clinical coursework in a lot of places. My electives were more limited because of the research courses (e.g., 4 stats courses). But it isn't like they are getting more clinical training outside of the classroom.

I think this is accurate overall unless you are comparing PhD programs from professional schools (alliant, PGSP) vs. university based PsyD programs like Baylor or Rutgers. There are plenty of PhD programs these days that are practitioner-scholar models so the field has changed in a sense. I believe that these practitioner-scholar PhD programs have pretty minimal dissertation requirements (I've seen some people with litt review dissertations). On the other hand, I know some PsyD students from top PsyD programs whose dissertations were more rigorous than many PhD students, and they were required to collect original data and publish their dissertations in peer reviewed journals as a condition of graduating (advisor required this).