Letting Programs Know You're Interested

[raspberry swirl]

as the dates for rol submission will soon be upon us, i was wondering exactly what is the 411 on letting programs know that one is interested? i was only planning on contacting the PD at my #1 choice, and was originally thinking of just sending an email, but wasn't sure exactly how to phrase it. is it alright to just be blunt and let them know that you are ranking the program 1st? does a handwritten letter really make a difference? i feel like handwritten letters can be schmaltzy, although i did handwrite my post-interview thank-you's. i also considered calling, as i am sure that my email wont be the only one he will get. but i envisioned a number of awkward conversations that could potentially ensue ... telephone conversations can be unpredictable and i dont want to sound like a blabbering idiot.

what's the general consensus?

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[maranatha]

I'm planning on going on a second look to the programs i'm going to rank high. I'm doing that both for myself and also to let the program know that i'm highly interested in them. I may then send an e-mail to my number one letting them know...however, haven't decided fully on this.

(BTW, I've been sending "thank you" e-mails and it has been great. I've managed to get some very good feedback from PD in their response that I don't think I would have gotten if I sent a note...just my experience.)

 

[raspberry swirl]

(BTW, I've been sending "thank you" e-mails and it has been great. I've managed to get some very good feedback from PD in their response that I don't think I would have gotten if I sent a note...just my experience.)

oh i never thought about that- that is a very good point. the ease of the reply button ...

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Just keep it simple. Don't blather, don't lie.
A polite "I'm still interested" will never hurt.

From my experience in a ranking meeting, it was surprisingly objective. We started with the candidates already ranked by scores from their interview evals. The two times that post-interview communications even came up, it was negative--one nearly incoherent letter, one rather bizarre email. It never came up whether or not a candidate had informed us of their intention to "make us #1" or not, and it probably wouldn't have mattered if they had.

 

[grishko2007]

Do you (or anyone else) have any advice for what to do if a program contacts you and tells you that you are ranked in the "top portion" of their list?

First of all, what exactly does this mean? It sounds vague, and because of this I wonder if I could really match there if I ranked them first.

Secondly, what if this program (x) is not necessarily your first choice, but maybe your 2nd or 3rd, and you haven't heard from your first choice yet but you would be happy to match at x if you didn't get y?

How does one handle this type of situation in the response? It seems a little too blunt just to say, well you're not my #1 choice, but maybe 2 or 3, have a nice day!!!....

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Do you (or anyone else) have any advice for what to do if a program contacts you and tells you that you are ranked in the "top portion" of their list?

First of all, what exactly does this mean? It sounds vague, and because of this I wonder if I could really match there if I ranked them first.

Secondly, what if this program (x) is not necessarily your first choice, but maybe your 2nd or 3rd, and you haven't heard from your first choice yet but you would be happy to match at x if you didn't get y?

How does one handle this type of situation in the response? It seems a little too blunt just to say, well you're not my #1 choice, but maybe 2 or 3, have a nice day!!!....

"Thank you very much. I am very interested in your program as well. I believe that your _________ will make it a good fit for my interests in __________. I will certainly be ranking your program highly, and look forward to the possiblity of seeing you in June."

See--it's not that difficult....

 

[i61164]

They can only be telling you this in the hopes that it will give you the warm and fuzzies and you will decide to rank them higher than you otherwise would have. If I were you, I would just thank them and tell them that you really like them too. Then just go ahead and rank the way you were going to anyway. According to OPD our love letters to them won't get you anywhere, so why should we let their love letters to us affect our decisions? It sounds like you are worried that they will be insulted if you don't write back and tell them they are number 1. If you are really worried about that, just lie and tell them that they are number 1. If your moral fibers do not allow this, you still don't have to tell them they are #2 or #3. Just be less specific like "I really enjoyed my interview and I think your program is a good fit for me" or "I would be really happy to match at your program."

 

[i61164]

Ha. Beat me to it.

 

[maranatha]

If you are really worried about that, just lie and tell them that they are number 1.

i61164 may be saying this tongue-in-cheek...But I personally don't think telling a program you're ranking them #1 when you're really not is not the best course of action for serveral reasons....

I've also gotten some of these "we're going to rank you in the top of our list" and "you're guarenteed to match here if you want to come." I've basically done what OPD suggested in response. I also take those comments with a grain of salt.

 

[grishko2007]

Thanks for the responses. It was liberating to hear from two different sources that the ranking process is pretty objective and that PD's are not so easily swayed by drippy love notes.

It's probably best not to lie, and not just for moral reasons. The psych community is likely much smaller than we med students realize....

 

[i61164]

Just to play devil's advocate...

If you tell a program that you will rank them number 1 and then match elsewhere, what do you think they are going to do about it? It sounds like you guys are scared that they will be able to punish you in some way.

I can understand not doing it for ethical reasons. I'm not even saying that I would do it myself. I just really don't think that anything would come of it. Like people have said, when programs make promises to us we should just take it with a grain of salt. But in reality, many people have been told they would be ranked high by some program, and come match day they were devastated. So what recourse does that student have? None. They can go around trashing the program (or PD), but as you well know, that will only result in them being scolded by you guys for being naive. I can hear you all now "You should have taken that with a grain of salt!!!"

So if you say you are going to rank a program number 1, will the PD take it with a grain of salt? If you don't match at his program, will he start bad mouthing you to all of his psychiatrist friends? Do all PD's get together and discuss all of their hundreds of applicants just so they can catch people making false promises? I seriously doubt it.

Anyway, if I did write a love letter to a program and then didn't rank them number one it would probably be because I changed my mind. You might end up changing your mind the night before your ROL is due. Does that make you a liar?

 

[maranatha]

Just to play devil's advocate...

If you tell a program that you will rank them number 1 and then match elsewhere, what do you think they are going to do about it? It sounds like you guys are scared that they will be able to punish you in some way.

I can understand not doing it for ethical reasons. I'm not even saying that I would do it myself. I just really don't think that anything would come of it. Like people have said, when programs make promises to us we should just take it with a grain of salt. But in reality, many people have been told they would be ranked high by some program, and come match day they were devastated. So what recourse does that student have? None. They can go around trashing the program (or PD), but as you well know, that will only result in them being scolded by you guys for being naive. I can hear you all now "You should have taken that with a grain of salt!!!"

So if you say you are going to rank a program number 1, will the PD take it with a grain of salt? If you don't match at his program, will he start bad mouthing you to all of his psychiatrist friends? Do all PD's get together and discuss all of their hundreds of applicants just so they can catch people making false promises? I seriously doubt it.

Anyway, if I did write a love letter to a program and then didn't rank them number one it would probably be because I changed my mind. You might end up changing your mind the night before your ROL is due. Does that make you a liar?

I can understand where you're coming from. I might seem like a boy-scout; but, yes, I wouldn't do it for ethical reasons. No, I'm not worried about being punished. I see every attending, resident, and applicant I see on the interview trail as a future colleague and try to treat them as if I might work with them either in residency or beyond. Besides, this is a mute point b/c it probably doesn't matter what you say, as OPD suggests. So this is just my approach to what is probably a trivial matter...

 

[grishko2007]

I'd hardly call myself scared, but I do consider myself to be an honest person and would like to be respected by my future peers. PD's are our future colleagues, and sending a letter saying one is ranked in the top portion of their list is not a lie. Telling a program they are ranked first when they are not is disrespectful and it is a lie, even if you are the only one who knows it in the end.

 

[RustNeverSleeps]

I've also gotten some of these "we're going to rank you in the top of our list" and "you're guarenteed to match here if you want to come." I've basically done what OPD suggested in response. I also take those comments with a grain of salt.

I haven't gotten any feedback like this yet (I've done less than half of my interviews). I have had almost every program director tell me that I should/will get my first choice, but that doesn't really do much for me, as I think it's pretty meaningless. Am I in trouble, in terms of matching, since no one has told me that I am at the top of their list?

 

[maranatha]

I haven't gotten any feedback like this yet (I've done less than half of my interviews). I have had almost every program director tell me that I should/will get my first choice, but that doesn't really do much for me, as I think it's pretty meaningless. Am I in trouble, in terms of matching, since no one has told me that I am at the top of their list?

No. I would say you're abosolutely not in trouble--don't even spend a minute worrying about it. It probably means nothing to get comments like that from PD's. Please don't stress....My point in writing that was to say that I'm not taking them that serious and that I responded to them much like the OPD suggested....

 

[i61164]

I'd hardly call myself scared, but I do consider myself to be an honest person and would like to be respected by my future peers. PD's are our future colleagues, and sending a letter saying one is ranked in the top portion of their list is not a lie. Telling a program they are ranked first when they are not is disrespectful and it is a lie, even if you are the only one who knows it in the end.

Yes, thank you Dr. Obvious ... IT IS A LIE. Still, I find the whole pre-match jockying for position game sort of amusing. Fourth year med students (some of which have never been on a job interview in their lives) are going up against PDs who interview hundreds of applicants year after year. PDs with their infinite experience, probably ignore the letters and e-mails that we send them. Meanwhile we sit here stress out about how to respond to a letter from them that is probably full of meaningless compliments and false hope. We take offense at the suggestion that we might bend the truth a little, but if we had a list of candidates ranked ahead of us by our first choice, we would consider stabbing them all to death.

 

[grishko2007]

Yes, thank you Dr. Obvious ... IT IS A LIE. Still, I find the whole pre-match jockying for position game sort of amusing. Fourth year med students (some of which have never been on a job interview in their lives) are going up against PDs who interview hundreds of applicants year after year. PDs with their infinite experience, probably ignore the letters and e-mails that we send them. Meanwhile we sit here stress out about how to respond to a letter from them that is probably full of meaningless compliments and false hope. We take offense at the suggestion that we might bend the truth a little, but if we had a list of candidates ranked ahead of us by our first choice, we would consider stabbing them all to death.

It has been my experience on the interview trail that PD's and sometimes even chairs not only read your letters, they also respond >90% of the time (email definitely has its advantages.) I'd suggest sticking to matters of which you have firsthand knowledge, and waiting a couple more years before contributing your two cents on this subject, because future readers of this thread may not realize that you are currently an M2, not an M4, with no experience yet of what it's like to be on the residency interview trail.

 

[drmistga]

Now while I agree the whole prematch jockeying theoretically is useless for both parties as I stated in another post-I do have to vouch for the other side of the coin here and say despite being not in either sides best interest, PDs do sometimes read the letters/emails we send.

Case in point myself-I took a chance a month or so ago and sent the PD an email stating they were by far my first choice and that I did not apply to a whole lot of programs because I knew where I want to go-which is true and I got a really nice email back thanking me and was cc to the program coordinator which I assume was to put in my file or keep or look at-who knows-bottom line is I have no clue if this will help but they are sometimes acknowledged and appreciated. go figure

 

[i61164]

It has been my experience on the interview trail that PD's and sometimes even chairs not only read your letters, they also respond >90% of the time (email definitely has its advantages.) I'd suggest sticking to matters of which you have firsthand knowledge, and wait a couple more years before contributing your two cents on this subject, because future readers of this thread may not realize that you are currently an M2, not an M4, with no experience yet of what it's like to be on the residency interview trail.

When I say PD's "ignore" your letters, what I mean is not that they won't necessarily send you a reply, but that they will not be swayed by your letter...

From my experience in a ranking meeting, it was surprisingly objective. We started with the candidates already ranked by scores from their interview evals. The two times that post-interview communications even came up, it was negative--one nearly incoherent letter, one rather bizarre email. It never came up whether or not a candidate had informed us of their intention to "make us #1" or not, and it probably wouldn't have mattered if they had.

Remember, the match algorithm favors applicants. PD's may benefit from sending you love letters (if you are foolish enough to be swayed), not the other way around...

The algorithim is somewhat complex, but I agree with the poster above. The match always looks at your #1 first, then attempts to match you to that choice if it is mathematically possible. If you don't fall into any of their slots, they go to your #2, and so on.

This method clearly benefits the applicant, which is why many programs try somewhat underhanded things to try to get all applicants to rank them #1 or close to it. That way they are more likely to get the applicant they want.

So you see, my second-hand opinions are not invalid because they have been influenced by collective experience here on SDN which far outstrips your own.

 

[Big Lebowski]

Just to play devil's advocate...

If you tell a program that you will rank them number 1 and then match elsewhere, what do you think they are going to do about it? It sounds like you guys are scared that they will be able to punish you in some way.

I had a conversation with some residents from other training sites during some summer programming last year. At one point we discussed the match and this particularly topic. Someone told me an incident in their program when an applicant they really liked told them he was ranking them number one. The program ranked this person in a matchable position. Come match day, this person matched elsewhere. A year later, this individual became unhappy with this current program and contacted the program in discussion about transferring there into a PGY-2 spot. Obviously he must have liked the program, but did not end up ranking the one for whatever reason. In the end, the program declined to take the individual. Of course, I do not know the circumstances regarding why he was not taken and it may have nothing to do, whatsoever, with a false promise. But you never know what will happen down the road. It is not safe to "lie" and assume you'll never have to deal with a program again. My suggestion is, be honest. It never hurts to tell programs you are very "impressed" and "interested" and you will rank them "high". Like a previous poster said; at our program, we are fairly objective when creating our match list. Expressed interest plays very little role.