License question

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It’s not part of CPME/ACFAS it’s not officially a fellowship. Sounds like a mutual departure from a. Private practice job to me. Don’t document you were a fellow if it’s not recognized by CPME but document you worked there. It’s not CPME and it’s not lying, they are only governing body of medical education for podiatry. I know plenty who quit in under a year. I quit one job.

CPME ensures residents and fellows have protection. They did not give you remediation, because they don’t have to, because it’s not a real fellowship.

Not legal advice. In my opinion more fraud to list that ****ty fellowship on your resume.
 
Sendin_Toes_2market said:
It’s not part of CPME/ACFAS it’s not officially a fellowship. Sounds like a mutual departure from a. Private practice job to me. Don’t document you were a fellow if it’s not recognized by CPME but document you worked there. It’s not CPME and it’s not lying, they are only governing body of medical education for podiatry. I know plenty who quit in under a year. I quit one job.

CPME ensures residents and fellows have protection. They did not give you remediation, because they don’t have to, because it’s not a real fellowship.

Not legal advice. In my opinion more fraud to list that ****ty fellowship on your resume.
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Thank you! Appreciate any and all advice 🙏 I think the problem is that the state board says to give ALL previous employers a form to complete. In that form, the employer has to answer yes or no to if I’ve ever been terminated. Or if I left in bad standing. I will certainly not list that I did this fellowship because it was hardly one lol. But would I have to list them as a previous employer if I was there for 2 months? Also, if you google my name it still has that address because I haven’t worked anywhere since.
 
Sendin_Toes_2market said:
It’s not part of CPME/ACFAS it’s not officially a fellowship. Sounds like a mutual departure from a. Private practice job to me. Don’t document you were a fellow if it’s not recognized by CPME but document you worked there. It’s not CPME and it’s not lying, they are only governing body of medical education for podiatry. I know plenty who quit in under a year. I quit one job.

CPME ensures residents and fellows have protection. They did not give you remediation, because they don’t have to, because it’s not a real fellowship.

Not legal advice. In my opinion more fraud to list that ****ty fellowship on your resume.
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I am now leaning towards not reporting it. I hope that does not mean I’m hiding something from the board
 
themainthing said:
Sorry for this being lengthy in advance!
But perhaps the biggest mistake of my life has turned out to be joining a fellowship last year which terminated me. I only worked there for 2 months. If I had to do my job search all over again as a third year resident, I would not naively join a fellowship that was toxic and wanted to screw me over instead of train me further. Not every fellowship is the same and my mistake was that I was a naive third year resident thinking this might be the best move for me only to be let down. Overall, I would say the feeling was mutual as soon as I started working there I got the vibe that they were not about training and expected me to be someone seasoned to about 5-10 years in the business. Low threshold, heavy judgement and pressure in the name of teaching billing. And if something was not according to their large pod practice standards, I would be met with heavy judgement not constructive criticism as a “fellow.” It’s like I was walking on egg shells because every move and everything I would say would be quickly judged to be incompetent or something. When I felt that vibe, I should’ve resigned before they could terminate. But again, I did not know any better when it came to the real world. Residency was different. Sorry for the rant, but I do not want to distract you from my question or my point or get trolled. I would appreciate serious answers only. I did only work there for 2 months. So in my mind and probably theirs this episode was one to forget. Or they did not know the seriousness and the repercussions of them “terminating” me after only 2 months of working that too there were no malpractice issues, no harm, and no legalities, etc involved. They had reasons for terminating me which were more personality/fit based. But knowing them, and the fact that we ended on such a bad note, I would not be surprised if they spite me on some form in the future. That’s the worst case. Even if they don’t spite me outright, I think they will actually write strong words and I’m think this might be enough for the state board to reject my license. And I really have no way of backing myself up even though I did not commit fraud, harm or malpractice of any sorts that we hear about.
The form in question is applying for another state license. That state board says to give the previous employer a form of about 8-10 questions to verify anywhere I worked previously. Some of those questions include was I ever put on probation/terminated. If so, why? Another question was like did I leave in bad standing with the company.
It really sucks because I got a contract after all of that drama that I thought I was done with last year. But it looks like it’s potentially coming back to bite me. I do not want this to ruin any state licensure and in effect my career for the long run basically even before I started in the real world…over something petty of them simply not liking me.
It’s really gotten me sad that people can be like this. I’ve literally had glowing recommendations where I previously worked in my residency and even job interviews. I really think that 2 month “fellowship” was me being at the wrong place and the wrong time.
Currently, I do not know what to do. I have a job contract signed but they are waiting on my license. This license can potentially get derailed or at least delayed because of this. When this termination did happen, the director of the fellowship at that time stated that this will not affect your future because their fellowship “is not part of CPME.” When I asked him advice for going forward in my future, I did tell him I did not want the way he ousted me with a termination to affect my career in the long term. It could’ve been dealt with more subtly especially since no malpractice was committed. His advice was and I quote “Your boards and licensure will not be affected and they will never know unless you tell them. Good luck.”
I personally am confused with that advice. Because now that I’m applying for another state license, their board is asking me to provide a form to all of my previous employers which so far is my residency and then this 2 month fellowship. The board does make a note that effectively says failure to report everything or withholding information can result in denial of license (in my head I’m freaking out over this because I think if I don’t report it could mean even worse that that?) Yet that fellowship doc’s advice, they will never know unless I report it myself. I feel I am doomed if I do report the incident and doomed if I don’t.
I really believe any of you who have been in this field for a long time would be able to kindly direct me in this matter. I’ve never been through anything like this.
What is worse is that practice literally does not care. They are so busy and treated me terribly while I was there. I feel even if I do give them the form to fill out and send to the board, they will not do it. I tried making calls to the secretary to arrange an appointment with one of the docs there but they did not pick up and did not respond to the voicemail I left.
After I left a year ago, I thought I would never have to talk to that practice ever and when I’m finally ready to move on to a new job, the state board is making me talk to them. They literally do not want to hear from me. I just don’t want this to be throwing a wrench to every job I do get in the future. This really sucks. And at this point I don’t know if I’m overthinking it but I can’t help but think of the worse. Even though I’ve gotten the job, I can’t help but think the worse about my license.
Again, I would really appreciate any serious advice.
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I so sorry. Forty plus years in podiatry,this mean spiteful field
 
themainthing said:
Thank you! Appreciate any and all advice 🙏 I think the problem is that the state board says to give ALL previous employers a form to complete. In that form, the employer has to answer yes or no to if I’ve ever been terminated. Or if I left in bad standing. I will certainly not list that I did this fellowship because it was hardly one lol. But would I have to list them as a previous employer if I was there for 2 months? Also, if you google my name it still has that address because I haven’t worked anywhere since.
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Then don't put it lol. 2 months ain't ****
 
Just list your last employment as residency. Don’t put the fellowship on any credentialing apps, licensure apps, etc. You can explain any lapse in employment/privileges as participating in a job search post residency. Don’t give former “fellowship” (a majority of which are an unnecessary joke and borderline stain on the profession) the opportunity to fill out any information.
 
@themainthing Sorry to hear such a terrible fellpwship experience. My 2 cents, always better to be open an honest with the board. You can always submit clarifying information to them from your end. If they have a question they will want to know both sides of the story. I have no doubt you'll get your license if you inform them of the poor fellowship experience. I wouldnt think twice about it so long as everything else checks out. We all have moments where we end up in some crappy experience for some reason or another, I think they will see that and they would easily look past the "Fellowship"
 
JAJE said:
@themainthing Sorry to hear such a terrible fellpwship experience. My 2 cents, always better to be open an honest with the board. You can always submit clarifying information to them from your end. If they have a question they will want to know both sides of the story. I have no doubt you'll get your license if you inform them of the poor fellowship experience. I wouldnt think twice about it so long as everything else checks out. We all have moments where we end up in some crappy experience for some reason or another, I think they will see that and they would easily look past the "Fellowship"
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This is a great answer in a perfect world... unnecessary time waste and risk in the real world.

The guy was not even on staff at any of the hospitals for 2 months of "fellowship," did basically nothing there. It was not even a real fellowship... it was one of the "let's get an associate DPM for our supergroup for $50k salary and call it a fellowship" ones (which are now many of the podiatry felllowships out there, unfortunately... they want a podiatry PA... for cheap).

If it were true hospital sanction or patient complaint or malprac or legal issue or something real (paper trail), then I'd agree to over-report and disclose. This is clearly not that sort of thing.
 
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Feli said:
This is a great answer in a perfect world... unnecessary time waste and risk in the real world.

The guy was not even on staff at any of the hospitals for 2 months of "fellowship," did basically nothing there. It was not even a real fellowship... it was one of the "let's get an associate DPM for our supergroup for $50k salary and call it a fellowship" ones (which are now many of the podiatry felllowships out there, unfortunately... they want a podiatry PA... for cheap).

If it were true hospital sanction or patient complaint or malprac or legal issue or something real (paper trail), then I'd agree to over-report and disclose. This is clearly not that sort of thing.
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Yea I can see how reporting it might open a can of worms that too for a temporary employment of 2 months lol. I’m just dreading that if I don’t mention it or lie that I was never terminated, then it might come back to bite me. Btw I did have to obtain hospital privileges at more than one hospital. But those were never revoked for any legal or malpractice issue like you said. I was only terminated from being a “fellow” at that group.
 
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You will probably have to report it unfortunately. Otherwise you run the risk of the board finding out and then it’s game over. Never been on a board so not sure how thoroughly they look into these things.
 
heybrother said:
I would rather explain why I was fired then try to explain why I lied.

I wonder if the OP had been given the choice to quit how it would have impacted licensing.
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Implications of being terminated at a real
Residency or fellowship is much more concerning vs a PP job. I wouldn’t list it as a fellowship, only a private practice.
 
The TL/DR of this is that you will be fine no matter how you decide to proceed. Sounds like an awful situation, perhaps you should've resigned but that's easier said than done. Days and weeks are short but careers are long. Go find work, report it if you want but I agree with everyone else that this was a job, not a training slot. It was not hospital-sponsored or ACGME or CPME or anything. Whether you report it or not, things will even out for you if you are ethical and work hard. Training is over, time to go to work. Seriously in 3-4 years you will laugh about this, albeit with some underlying spite.
 
dtrack22 said:
Just list your last employment as residency. Don’t put the fellowship on any credentialing apps, licensure apps, etc. You can explain any lapse in employment/privileges as participating in a job search post residency. Don’t give former “fellowship” (a majority of which are an unnecessary joke and borderline stain on the profession) the opportunity to fill out any information.
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I highly disagree with this and I’ll tell you why.

I had a very good friend in residency who got fired during his residency (I think it ended as a resignation, he got credit for his time there) for the same reasons you did. Nothing bad, his director hated him. Super toxic. He was lucky enough to transfer into a new residency, was loved there, became chief, got his license and a great attending/PP gig. He disclosed everything in his licensure application, they asked for documents which his old program was willing to give and they granted him his license.

I know about his licensing worries because he talked about it and I know some people on pod state boards, and I will tell you this for fact:

You should still be honest. A state board will not burn you for being terminated. If they figure out you did not disclose something they will absolutely burn you and it will be much more difficult. Doesn’t mean you won’t get it, but some states are much more strict than others. If you disclose it they will ask for a personal statement , maybe a statement from that fellowship director and clear your license. If you tell them that this practice/fellowship will not return or speak to you, they may figure something else out or bypass it. They know this BS happens. It’s business and people suck. If you lie and they find out it’s probably going to end in you coming in front of the board, same thing goes from criminal backgrounds ect.

I’d be more inclined to tell you they’ll figure it out or be suspicious because during those months you claim not to have worked (if you omit the fellowship) and/or been out of work they will ask why or describe what you were doing while not working, they will ask questions or delve deeper. It’s their job.

There’s not a great answer here but this is what I know for a fact and have seen. And not just DPM but MD and DO boards. I’ve seen and heard a few stories.

Even if they won’t fill a form out for you, easier to explain that than explain why you lied. Dishonesty when it comes to anything board related is the ultimate no-no. In their eyes, if you lie about this, what else would you lie about (whether it’s true or not). Much easier to be like “yeah I hated my fellowship director and they hated me, they don’t want to talk to me”. And figure something out from there. You finished your residency and qualify to be licensed.
 
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Report it. The board doesn’t care. There are podiatrists out there with multiple misdemeanors/ felonies still practicing. Read your states podiatry board meeting minutes.

No one cares.

Report it. You won’t even be questioned about it. Good luck in your career.
 
med2345 said:
I highly disagree with this and I’ll tell you why.

I had a very good friend in residency who got fired during his residency (I think it ended as a resignation, he got credit for his time there) for the same reasons you did. Nothing bad, his director hated him. Super toxic. He was lucky enough to transfer into a new residency, was loved there, became chief, got his license and a great attending/PP gig. He disclosed everything in his licensure application, they asked for documents which his old program was willing to give and they granted him his license.

I know about his licensing worries because he talked about it and I know some people on pod state boards, and I will tell you this for fact:

You should still be honest. A state board will not burn you for being terminated. If they figure out you did not disclose something they will absolutely burn you and it will be much more difficult. Doesn’t mean you won’t get it, but some states are much more strict than others. If you disclose it they will ask for a personal statement , maybe a statement from that fellowship director and clear your license. If you tell them that this practice/fellowship will not return or speak to you, they may figure something else out or bypass it. They know this BS happens. It’s business and people suck. If you lie and they find out it’s probably going to end in you coming in front of the board, same thing goes from criminal backgrounds ect.

I’d be more inclined to tell you they’ll figure it out or be suspicious because during those months you claim not to have worked (if you omit the fellowship) and/or been out of work they will ask why or describe what you were doing while not working, they will ask questions or delve deeper. It’s their job.

There’s not a great answer here but this is what I know for a fact and have seen. And not just DPM but MD and DO boards. I’ve seen and heard a few stories.

Even if they won’t fill a form out for you, easier to explain that than explain why you lied. Dishonesty when it comes to anything board related is the ultimate no-no. In their eyes, if you lie about this, what else would you lie about (whether it’s true or not). Much easier to be like “yeah I hated my fellowship director and they hated me, they don’t want to talk to me”. And figure something out from there. You finished your residency and qualify to be licensed.
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This is the correct answer.
 
dtrack22 said:
Not true. Had a former employer lie on a form for state licensure. It took an attorney to resolve. There’s a whole lot of naivety in this thread
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What? My advice was to report it, not to lie. If you report it no one will even question it.
 
Dermato Fight Club said:
What? My advice was to report it, not to lie. If you report it no one will even question it.
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You’re wrong, and misread my reply. I had a former employer who stole from me and I left. I applied for a new state license that required paperwork to be sent/filled out by my former employer. The former employer was mad that I left, how I left, and filled out the state licensure paperwork in a less than truthful manner because their feelings were hurt. I was unable to get a new state license until an attorney got involved. It was questioned and the former employer almost kept me from getting the new license. Like I said, your claim that it won’t be questioned is false.
 
dtrack22 said:
You’re wrong, and misread my reply. I had a former employer who stole from me and I left. I applied for a new state license that required paperwork to be sent/filled out by my former employer. The former employer was mad that I left, how I left, and filled out the state licensure paperwork in a less than truthful manner because their feelings were hurt. I was unable to get a new state license until an attorney got involved. It was questioned and the former employer almost kept me from getting the new license. Like I said, your claim that it won’t be questioned is false.
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Yes, I had same many years ago... short term employer making bad references to local hospitals and even fake complaints to state board about me "on behalf of patients and staff" (no patients or staff complained, just stuff employer wrote up themself). The hospitals and ASCs just called me, and nothing happened. The state board was a bigger waste of time... again, nothing happened. These owner/employers basically know associate leaving is in a vulnerable position and want to give you hurdles, esp if associate stays staying in their area - or maybe even out of malice regardless. The next associate there had basically same spite from them... associate's attorney called me to ask about a purported "second practice location" of that owner that did not exist (it was a residential address... owner was trying to extend non-compete radius on them).

It's water under the bridge now, but I learned to stop listing that employer on apps and giving them the microphone to cause slander me and cause problems. It was a short term employ and of no consequence. That is the case here for anyone who reads the OP (extremely short term job, no paper trail, no actual damages, will cause nothing but problems if you send them reference forms or calls).

If it's short term employ, it's better not to give them a chance to trash you and cause problems. It is naïve to try to be overly honest when it'll simply cause you frustration and wasted time.

But yeah, if it's a legit hospital or legal issue or state board sanction, you have to disclose and explain those. That goes without saying... and also usually consult an attorney in those cases.

shadesofgrey said:
This is the correct answer.
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For the anecdote he gave, maybe.

...but getting kicked out of an accredited residency after matching and being there awhile versus doing a couple months at an unsanctioned fellowship (aka associate job) are not the same thing.

Again, perfect world vs real world.
 
dtrack22 said:
You’re wrong, and misread my reply. I had a former employer who stole from me and I left. I applied for a new state license that required paperwork to be sent/filled out by my former employer. The former employer was mad that I left, how I left, and filled out the state licensure paperwork in a less than truthful manner because their feelings were hurt. I was unable to get a new state license until an attorney got involved. It was questioned and the former employer almost kept me from getting the new license. Like I said, your claim that it won’t be questioned is false.
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I still disagree. It should be reported to the board. If the former employer wants to lie to the board then that is on them.

If the board finds out that you didn't disclose something or answered the questions untruthfully, you will also need to get a lawyer involved.

I would have faith that my state license board has the competence to understand that not every employee/employer relationship ends amicably and as long as there are no issues, malpractice/fraud etc. that the employee is capable of obtaining a license.
 
Dermato Fight Club said:
...I would have faith that my state license board has the competence to understand that not every employee/employer relationship ends amicably and as long as there are no issues, malpractice/fraud etc. that the employee is capable of obtaining a license.
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You guys are both right... the board will forgive minor stuff.
Also, it will cause nothing but headaches to over-report things that are non-issues.

The problem is that it is very fast to make accusation, give a bad reference, etc.... but it takes a looong time to explain, refute, respond, etc. Employers who want to cause frustration and delays when an associate who leaves and becomes/joins a potential competitor know this. Some do it just to do it (even if associate is known to be leaving state/area). It's lame.

For very minor stuff with no paper trail, it can be omitted.. case by case decision. The "fellowship" here isn't even likely to be aggressive to begin with, length of relationship was very short, never wrote him up or made any formal complaints (just ended employ). New grads usually don't have a ton of money for attorney or want to have longer than necessary job gaps due to licensing delays or job references badmouthing them. But it's their call.

For longer term or more recent relationships or anything hospital/legal/malprac, you obviously list it and even over-disclose years later.
 
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Wasn't there mention here of hospital privileging? Places take that **** for real that doesn't go away.
 
Don't listen to a bunch of internet more ons talk to a lawyer
 
Realistically man/person. You likely doxed yourself to someone. I doubt they will go out of their way to screw you over. I’d rather sue someone for defamation than lose my license for lying and having that forever in the State board records. List the practice it’s NOT a GME fellowship. ANY state board will let you answer for something. Hell NYS let NYCPM professors way back keep their licenses after openly committing Medicaid fraud.
 
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