Lies, More lies and Propaganda

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The amount and complexity of cases Crna's get is astonishing low. Between spinals, epidurals and PNB's their requirements are a total of 25 before they graduate.

During residency, I stopped counting after 400 of these procedures. What a joke.

I'm all for care team. It is needed... but some of these Crna's are self-entitled, malignant and outright dangerous.
 
The amount and complexity of cases Crna's get is astonishing low. Between spinals, epidurals and PNB's their requirements are a total of 25 before they graduate.

During residency, I stopped counting after 400 of these procedures. What a joke.

I'm all for care team. It is needed... but some of these Crna's are self-entitled, malignant and outright dangerous.

Yep. Many of these CRNAs basically learned on the job after finishing.

The question is how long does it take for a fresh Crna, some of who are barely 25-26 with no life experience because they knew the quickest way.

It's not like the old day where an RN works in ICU for 4-5 years than decides to go the Crna school.

Does a Crna how 5-10 years. Can they function independently? Some can. No question about it.

But the AANA says all CRNAs should be able to practice independently, regardless of experience.

Look at CMS and pain management. The AANA lobbied hard and got CMS to get CRNAs to bill and collect for diagnosis and management of chronic pain.
 
we are a bunch of crying idiots. thats truly what we are. if we truly wanted change, all of us would be calling the asa on a daily basis and demanding that we stop training CRNAs. we are the makers of our problem. it isnt the crnas, IT IS US. its as simply as that. until people on here work together, calling, mailing, harassing continually the asa to demand that programs stop training the crnas, nothing will change, and it will be our fault.
some of us may have compiled a nice little nest egg and why bother? who cares? we got in and are getting out and it wont be our problem. or, the crnas i work with are cool, so why stir the pot? or, i cant change anything so why waste my time. or my time is too precious, so i dont want to get involved.
we are the problem and the solution. we need to solve this and stop training these bastards, to do that we need to harass the asa to get programs to stop training crnas. end of story
 
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we are a bunch of crying idiots. thats truly what we are. if we truly wanted change, all of us would be calling the asa on a daily basis and demanding that we stop training CRNAs. we are the makers of our problem. it isnt the crnas, IT IS US. its as simply as that. until people on here work together, calling, mailing, harassing continually the asa to demand that programs stop training the crnas, nothing will change, and it will be our fault.
some of us may have compiled a nice little nest egg and why bother? who cares? we got in and are getting out and it wont be our problem. or, the crnas i work with are cool, so why stir the pot? or, i cant change anything so why waste my time. or my time is too precious, so i dont want to get involved.
we are the problem and the solution. we need to solve this and stop training these bastards, to do that we need to harass the asa to get programs to stop training crnas. end of story

This is a huge point - why are anesthesiologists training those who would just as soon snuff out their profession?

There are some bold groups and practices out there that have finally said "We ain't doing this no mo" (that would be the Sourthern version) Kudos to those groups, especially those who have bitten the bullet and actually hired AA's and ACT-friendly CRNA's to replace the lost student nurse anesthetist free source of labor they had. (some of you know who you are - I do 😉 )
 
I am confident this will be the continued trend....more AAs and less CRNAs...starting to see it around my part of the country as well. Small batches of AAs are popping up in groups that only used CRNAs previously.
 
here is a list of contacts for your respective state anesthesia society, please call and have added to the next monthly meeting that you want to talk about adding AA practice privileges in your state, or that you want to discuss ending the physician led training of crnas in hospitals throughout your state due to the fact that the crnas are militant and trying to end our careers

http://www.asahq.org/for-members/about-asa/related-organizations/state-component.aspx#al

I think that department chairs are the ones who need to get on board. I have been shocked at how many continue to train SRNA's because of short term financial incentive without looking at the long term implications. I think everyone thinks that they just train a few and it's not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things. When you add up all of the ones just training a few (15-20 per year), the total impact is huge.

I completely agree with the statement that the problem is us and could be solved in short order if the academic culture was changed. There is a current glut of CRNA's, so they need to close many schools completely and trim down the class size for most. The CRNA mills out there are hurting everyone by diluting the quality of students they allow in, decreasing the experience of their own students by having to farm them out to substandard rural hospitals where their training is highly variable, harming the reputation of all CRNA's by producing substandard graduates, decreasing patient safety for the same reason, and by decreasing job opportunities for CRNA's and physicians.

The CRNA mills will continue to increase their class sizes as long as they can find some dolt in the private world that is willing to train them in return for lining their pockets with a portion of the profits. CRNA schools are now charging outrageous fees to their students for training, so it may be soon that these nurses realize that the return on investment is not as lucrative as it once was. The current standard is that every nurse under 30 with any degree of intellect in most hospitals is going to online NP or DNP programs or maneuvering to get their one year of ICU so they can get into CRNA school. I am worried for the future (the next 10-20 years) when every nurse that has been trained in the past few years will have a DNP and will walk around in their white coat claiming physician equivalence (actually, many claim to be better than physicians). The regular nurses will be a sorely needed commodity and the pool of these nurses will be a very high number of the unambitious, bottom of the barrel nurses because all of the best and brightest are now "doctors" and no longer want to be on the front lines. They want to do what physicians do. Imagine the worst nurses you have worked with and then imagine that they are now the norm instead of the really bright and ambitious nurses that take excellent care of patients.

This will not only affect our specialty. It will affect all specialties. I think we are just the most visible and advanced specialty that will be affected first. We are the canary in the coal mine specialty. Zerwas and Fitch are excellent leaders (In my opinion, a big cut above any ASA leader we have had in the past 30 years). It is my hope that they will take this issue head on and rally anesthesiologists to pull their heads out of the sand. Ultimately, you just need to follow the money trail. CRNA schools get buy in and footholds in academia and private hospitals by lining the pockets of a few individuals. We need someone in the ASA and in academia to stand up and change the culture to say it is not okay to train people who wish to cut our throats and demean our abilities as a specialty of medicine through lies and deception. The problem arises because the older generation is close enough to retirement that they are not affected, and they are more than willing to take the extra $$$ to train those who would cut the throat of the next generation.

We see it in large groups who sell out to AMC's. They receive a guaranteed salary for several years and millions in buy out. The sell out is driven by the older partners in the group who are close enough to retirement that they have no risk and a huge payout. Then, the future of that group is dead because the AMC will control it within a matter of years and the business people will make all of the money off of the backs of the docs.

There is greed in every specialty and anesthesiology is no exception. Pain medicine is probably the worst field out there for greed.
 
Patients do not dictate these rules. Patients certainly have the right to know the credentials of those taking care of them, but that usually takes an affirmative step of inquiry.....Keep fighting.

We basically agree with each other. Except that patients DO dictate these rules as they represent the majority of society and can or do in some states demand legal intervention to clearly know who is participating in their care (their training background included) as you mention in certain state legislatures. This dictates hospital policy and sometimes hospital policies will predate these laws in anticipation to prevent future litigation.

Patients can and should dictate these rules as part of their rights as other ones they have in state and federal laws. In my state a patient bill of rights is posted in most rooms (very tiny print) explaining their right to care despite ability to pay, refuse treatment, access records, and received itemized billing.

I think it also states they are allowed to know their treatment team, but I guess that does allow for side stepping the issue if they have to request degree verification and transcripts directly. A reasonable person would assume that if they are allowed this, that no healthcare provider should be able to play on standard cultural assumptions of what "doctor" means in a hospital. I dont even think we need to take the surveys afterwards to see who the patients thought the person was after they are introduced in this manner. And most people do not understand the difference between interns and residents (senior/junior). Beyond this they assume that when they are in the hospital that they are being managed at some point by fully trained physician, not partially or a year or 2 out of med school.

You can have your cake and eat it too, you cant have "doctor" mean several things to patients as thats clearly ambiguous. Doctor=attending physician, if not "Dr so and so the resident physican" or intern, etc

You cant play these laws and peoples assumptions to fit your needs, they arent written for you and your job security (although physicians push these bills through). They are written specifically for patients rights, so their needs and assumptions DO dictate these things as the starting and end point. Bills, laws, hospital policy are just crap in the middle to ensure they get it because people cant be relied upon to be honest adults which you should all own up to before pushing these issues as just patient safety. Then with your own biases in mind still make an even handed argument with the patients rights in mind. And hopefully we all dont need a bill and law to govern our morals into action and practice. If Patient rights and safety are your concern then dont pull that card just when it suits your needs.

These nurse things will topple on themselves if you are worth your training and clinical skill set and knowledge. Beyond the fact that they are the strongest labor union behind teachers, so they will always fall short in the eyes of the corporate structures that govern hospitals and the facets of medicine. Physicians are the chumps in this game and have been for some time. You said it yourselves, you get dished the hard cases, are likely more productive during your work hours clinically, and are the go to source for when it hits the fans. You arent paid that much more per hour in compensation for this, and you can pay a crna just as much and they will still fall short if the physician is worth his training and keeps his knowledge base up.

Stop running like scaredy cats eveytime scope or reimbursement encroachment approaches, demand that much more of a raise of your employers each time it does and walk if it doesnt. Then that encroachment will stop happening. Physicians puss out always and take their frustrations out on those who are more proximant like residents and med students whom they arent afraid to stand up to. Or are just too plain stupid to do anything constructive about it like the other poster mentioned.

Working hard and being obedient is what gets a kid from grade school to the end of residency, so I guess I shouldnt be surprised at lack of action.

You need to stop organizing by specialties across the country and organize as physicians at the state level (federal to large a group and things would be slow or stagnant as bigger money & power dictates the fed vs state) thats how australia does it, by their "province" or whatever. This happens and physicians state wide make a push at state gov for resolution or sit down strike. Its your best bet. You have your board specialty US wide and a state medical license. You organize along the state as physicians for labor issues like these, thats where u lose ground as workers. You organize along specialty board for academic and collaborative reasons, not labor. As your ultimate license for your labor, and the bulk of your reimbursement, is tied to your original medical license. Scope of practice right fighting along specialty boards is the biggest waste of time, its US wide as well. Its like robbing peter for 2 cents to pay paul a penny in the grand scheme of things
 
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This will not only affect our specialty. It will affect all specialties. I think we are just the most visible and advanced specialty that will be affected first. We are the canary in the coal mine specialty. Zerwas and Fitch are excellent leaders (In my opinion, a big cut above any ASA leader we have had in the past 30 years). It is my hope that they will take this issue head on and rally anesthesiologists to pull their heads out of the sand. Ultimately, you just need to follow the money trail. CRNA schools get buy in and footholds in academia and private hospitals by lining the pockets of a few individuals. We need someone in the ASA and in academia to stand up and change the culture to say it is not okay to train people who wish to cut our throats and demean our abilities as a specialty of medicine through lies and deception. The problem arises because the older generation is close enough to retirement that they are not affected, and they are more than willing to take the extra $$$ to train those who would cut the throat of the next generation.

Excellent post.

For those attending the ASA Annual Meeting in San Francisco, you MUST attend the Emery A. Rovenstine Memorial Lecture on Monday morning, presented by John Neeld, MD, past president of the ASA. He has been on the front lines as well as behind the scenes on many of these types of issues.

http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/a865d2b9#/a865d2b9/32
 
Arent CRNAs now training others? Well more of that will happen and since they have real collective bargaining theyll be fine as while they are teaching and working less clinically, you and residents will pick up the slack like youve been doing as all physicians do. Not collective bargaining at the level of effective legislature (state) as physicians (state medical licensing) then forget it. Tell me how this works out just not teaching a nurse, always such pansy moves even in the contemplation. Once an obedient student, always one i guess.

Stop being so afraid of authority (government, hospital executive demands, those who hold the strings to your change purse), youre the only major labor group in our history who hasnt. And the group with the most training and in depth formal education, its pathetic

And I'm not arguing for the nurse vs physician, as I am not sure what makes you think that you two need to be stealing from each other's pot of wages or that you can't both have work conditions and wages that would allow you both to be happier. Its labor vs labor, and labor earns its own wages through production. You both make up a minority chunk of the bubbling health gdp, and you know it wasnt growing to unsustainability becuase of your wages I'm sure. Its been a confetti parade of money in healthcare for everyone but those who work for a living in healthcare, it has the highest profit margin businesses compared to any industry. Why should a form of basic social welfare have the highest profit margins?

Recognize the playing field of this issue because you are labor like a 12 year old girl in the phillipines is making polo shirts to the financial industry, nothing more. I'll find the one report that says on hospitals the major drawback is you will sill have to pay doctors enough to pay their medical school debts in order to keep then as employees. Its all about cutting the costs, including labor or the people that make up our society.

Does a more expensive form of paper get hurt when it a cheaper one is chosen instead? No because it doesnt have to worry about being employed or supporting itself or a family cause its paper. It doesnt have ths rights that people are afforded. But you are just paper in the eyes of corporation who has one moral code it is obligated by the most nonsense of laws to folllow, maximize its profit for its investors. So stop trying to be the piece of paper trying to prove itself of higher quality, you dont need to as youre skilled labor not materials. The industry stops if you do, unions respect other unions because they recognize they will be just played off each other each time one goes on strike so that their collective bargaining power is ineffective. Nurses are not really your opponent in this very old game, you can both have enough of your group per patient, humane working hours, and wages befitting you. 3 trillion a year, what do nurses and docs net a year after taxes? Chump change of that, yet almost none of that 3 trillion happens if you stop working at a sit down strike-if it even came to that. Read wealth of nations, moral theory, or some chomsky lectures on youtube.
 
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I think that department chairs are the ones who need to get on board. I have been shocked at how many continue to train SRNA's because of short term financial incentive without looking at the long term implications. I think everyone thinks that they just train a few and it's not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things. When you add up all of the ones just training a few (15-20 per year), the total impact is huge.

I completely agree with the statement that the problem is us and could be solved in short order if the academic culture was changed. There is a current glut of CRNA's, so they need to close many schools completely and trim down the class size for most. The CRNA mills out there are hurting everyone by diluting the quality of students they allow in, decreasing the experience of their own students by having to farm them out to substandard rural hospitals where their training is highly variable, harming the reputation of all CRNA's by producing substandard graduates, decreasing patient safety for the same reason, and by decreasing job opportunities for CRNA's and physicians.

The CRNA mills will continue to increase their class sizes as long as they can find some dolt in the private world that is willing to train them in return for lining their pockets with a portion of the profits. CRNA schools are now charging outrageous fees to their students for training, so it may be soon that these nurses realize that the return on investment is not as lucrative as it once was. The current standard is that every nurse under 30 with any degree of intellect in most hospitals is going to online NP or DNP programs or maneuvering to get their one year of ICU so they can get into CRNA school. I am worried for the future (the next 10-20 years) when every nurse that has been trained in the past few years will have a DNP and will walk around in their white coat claiming physician equivalence (actually, many claim to be better than physicians). The regular nurses will be a sorely needed commodity and the pool of these nurses will be a very high number of the unambitious, bottom of the barrel nurses because all of the best and brightest are now "doctors" and no longer want to be on the front lines. They want to do what physicians do. Imagine the worst nurses you have worked with and then imagine that they are now the norm instead of the really bright and ambitious nurses that take excellent care of patients.

This will not only affect our specialty. It will affect all specialties. I think we are just the most visible and advanced specialty that will be affected first. We are the canary in the coal mine specialty. Zerwas and Fitch are excellent leaders (In my opinion, a big cut above any ASA leader we have had in the past 30 years). It is my hope that they will take this issue head on and rally anesthesiologists to pull their heads out of the sand. Ultimately, you just need to follow the money trail. CRNA schools get buy in and footholds in academia and private hospitals by lining the pockets of a few individuals. We need someone in the ASA and in academia to stand up and change the culture to say it is not okay to train people who wish to cut our throats and demean our abilities as a specialty of medicine through lies and deception. The problem arises because the older generation is close enough to retirement that they are not affected, and they are more than willing to take the extra $$$ to train those who would cut the throat of the next generation.

We see it in large groups who sell out to AMC's. They receive a guaranteed salary for several years and millions in buy out. The sell out is driven by the older partners in the group who are close enough to retirement that they have no risk and a huge payout. Then, the future of that group is dead because the AMC will control it within a matter of years and the business people will make all of the money off of the backs of the docs.

There is greed in every specialty and anesthesiology is no exception. Pain medicine is probably the worst field out there for greed.

Mass production = large Quantity at the expense of Quality :idea:

And agree on that many specialties will be compromised, there was an issue couple of years ago about a DNP dermatologist seeing and treating patients !!

Its an ethical obligation to stand against this nonsense, and there are many points to be addressed here :

1.Patients safety.
2.Malpractice insurance for those Pseudo-MD aka CRNA,DNP.. should be sky high.
3.Systems,law and order compromise, when engineers and others can practice medicine after an online intensive course while MDs have to go through crucifying years and years of debts, medical schools, residencies , on-calls .....etc
SO FOR ALL CRNA/DPA, IF YOU WANT TO BE MD GO TO A MEDICAL SCHOOL. IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW MUCH TRAINING YOU CLAIM TO HAVE. PERIOD.
 
It seems odd that the same people who are training SRNA's are also giving top dollar to the ASAPAC. In my opinion, keep your money, just quit training SRNA's. No need to funnel that money through hundreds of pockets only to be diluted when you are in control of one of the major things that our lobbyists are trying to get accomplished.
 
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To make this whole issue even more absurd are two recent studies published in the journal “Anesthesiology,” the official publication of the ASA, and “Anesthesia & Analgesia.” In one, communications with “supervising” anesthesiologists were evaluated revealing that less than 2 percent of such communications originated from those being “supervised” in the OR.

The CRNA author makes the above statement. It seems to me that this goes against the point he was trying to make (that CRNA's do not need supervision. To me, it seems that the statistic shows that only 2% of the time does the CRNA recognize that the situation needs an escalation in care. I have seen that in my practice. I walk into a room and notice something very alarming that the CRNA either does not recognize or chooses to ignore or pass off as unimportant. So many times, I have to say, why didn't you do this or that or why didn't you call me.
 
Haha I forgot how many entities have laid claim to that acronym. It was aspirin actually and she had to ask me (a student) the mechanism of action. Then she had no idea what COX inhibitor meant.
 
In my State of Florida you can graduate high school with an AA degree. This means when you are 18 years old the State grants you a high school diploma and then the community college your AA degree. By the time you are 20 some are RNs. I have worked with a 24 year old CRNA. Quite a few more are only 25 years old.

So, all this talk of experienced critical care nurses is B.S. in my State. Most have just a year or two of critical care experience and are not CCRNS.

just to note, CCRN means nothing more than mere rote memory. there are nurses out there that know the what, but not the why (re: critical care/thinking).

as to schools wanting this certification prior to applying really makes little sense other than another hoop to jump through, and staying one step ahead of the next program. i just wanted to emphasize the "unNeed" for CCRN.
 
I'm from the Canadian system and doing my first rotation in the US at a major academic medical center. Holy smokes was that a culture shock. Yes, I read about the CRNA issue, but you don't get it until you actually SEE IT.

Tonsillectomy + neck dissection, ASA 3 with COPD and ?ILD (unclear from chart), case done by CRNA start to finish. The whole surgery, the CRNA complained loudly about being underpayed and needing to make the same as the physician due to the supposedly same qualification, MDs being needless / useless in the field bla bla. Then failed to extubate after the case x 3, after the third time finally willing to call MD anesthesia (before that "No, I got this" - guess what, you dont)
Next case, same CRNA, same bitching about him needing to make more money due to him being just as good as an MD anesthesiologist...

I need minor surgery (ACL repair), am ASA 1, but I'd rather wait 6 months up North to get it than have that CRNA do as much as give me the versed before the procedure
 
I'm from the Canadian system and doing my first rotation in the US at a major academic medical center. Holy smokes was that a culture shock. Yes, I read about the CRNA issue, but you don't get it until you actually SEE IT.

Tonsillectomy + neck dissection, ASA 3 with COPD and ?ILD (unclear from chart), case done by CRNA start to finish. The whole surgery, the CRNA complained loudly about being underpayed and needing to make the same as the physician due to the supposedly same qualification, MDs being needless / useless in the field bla bla. Then failed to extubate after the case x 3, after the third time finally willing to call MD anesthesia (before that "No, I got this" - guess what, you dont)
Next case, same CRNA, same bitching about him needing to make more money due to him being just as good as an MD anesthesiologist...

I need minor surgery (ACL repair), am ASA 1, but I'd rather wait 6 months up North to get it than have that CRNA do as much as give me the versed before the procedure

If I was finishing my Residency Training today in Anesthesiology I would rather be in the Canadian system than the USA system.
 
If I was finishing my Residency Training today in Anesthesiology I would rather be in the Canadian system than the USA system.

I wish I could convince my wife to move up North. I was planning fellowship regardless, so I would meet the 5 years for becoming certified in Canada. Still holing out hope I can find an all MD group when I'm done. My residency is in a very pro-MD state, so hopefully that won't change much as I finish training.
 
I wish I could convince my wife to move up North. I was planning fellowship regardless, so I would meet the 5 years for becoming certified in Canada. Still holing out hope I can find an all MD group when I'm done. My residency is in a very pro-MD state, so hopefully that won't change much as I finish training.

Its sad when we now recognize the opportunity for success is better in Canada than the USA. Better income, more respect, lower taxes, etc. The only thing missing is warm weather (a big factor for me).
 
Dear Colleague:


Knowing of your interest in ensuring patient access to safe, cost-effective anesthesia care, I am pleased to inform you that the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS) has now clarified and confirmed that anesthesiologist assistants (AAs) may not bill Medicare for nonmedically directed (billing code QZ) anesthesia services as CRNAs are educated and authorized to do.


In a policy transmittal dated May 30, 2013, the agency clarified the distinctions between CRNAs, who may practice autonomously and bill Medicare for their services, and AAs, whose services are covered by Medicare when they are medically directed by an anesthesiologist. Transmittal 2716 amends Chapter 12 of the Medicare Claims Processing Manual governing Medicare Part B coverage of anesthesia care.


Though Medicare Administrative Contractors (MACs) long held that AAs may not bill Medicare QZ, the Palmetto GBA MAC serving the states of California, Hawaii, Nevada, North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia and West Virginia published an email April 24 stating, "Palmetto GBA has received guidance that the QZ HCPCS modifier is also to be used for an Anesthesiologist Assistant (AA) service performed without medical direction." Noting that the Palmetto GBA action was inconsistent with Medicare regulations and payment manuals that say an AA is a "person who works under the direction of an anesthesiologist," AANA addressed the issue directly with Palmetto GBA and the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS).


The action taken by CMS represents an important development in anesthesia services coverage, clarifying what we already know: that CRNA and AA educational preparation and services are not the same, and that the Medicare program recognizes them differently. While Medicare recognizes CRNA services provided autonomously and with anesthesiologist medical direction, in contrast the agency only recognizes AA services under anesthesiologist medical direction. Many public and commercial health plans covering CRNA services follow Medicare's lead.


We commend the Medicare agency for having an open ear to AANA's concerns, following and appropriately clarifying the law, and promoting patient access to safe and cost-effective anesthesia care.


For all you do for the patients, practice and profession of nurse anesthesia, thank you.


Sincerely,
Janice Izlar AANA President
 
AAs and CRNAs should have the same billing rights/opportunities when being supervised by an Anesthesiologist. Unfortunately, the CRNA has a huge advantage over the AA in terms of CMS billing due to TEFRA requirements for AAs.

A Group does not need to meet TEFRA for a CRNA to collect 100% of the fee from Medicare but does need to meet TEFRA for an AA.

The playing field isn't level or fair.


http://www.aana.com/aboutus/documents/reimbursement_crnaservices.pdf
 
CRNA Practice
– 61% Medical Direction
– 46% Non Medical Direction
 Median Annual Salary: $160,000
 Rural Pass Through Funds: 7%
– Critical Access Hospitals


Non Medical Direction does not mean Solo or Independent Practice. It means Medical supervision billed as "QZ" to avoid any possible claims of fraud for not meeting all 7 rules of TEFRA. For example, if I am supervising 4 rooms with CRNAs but want to overlap a surgeon with another room utilizing another CRNA that would be illegal under TEFRA's rules. However, if I utilize QZ billing then the Group collects 100% of the Medicare fee for all 5 cases/rooms.

If I use AAs then this 5th room overlap isn't possible without taking a 50% hit on all the Medicare cases I am involved with at that time.
This restricts the use of AAs in some practices and gives the CRNA an unfair advantage. The AA needs the same billing flexibility as the CRNA to compete in the market.

CRNAs also practicing independently or solo bill CMS using the QZ modifier.
 
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http://www.thehealthlawpartners.com/docs/qz_modifier_a_lurking_problem.pdf


http://csa-online.org/pdfs/AbouleishClark.pdf



Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetists (CRNAs)

CRNAs have multiple billing options when providing anesthesia. A anesthesiologist medically directing a single CRNA case is billed out with the –QY/-QX modifiers respectively, while an anesthesiologist medically directing multiple CRNAs cases is billed out with the –QK/-QX modifiers. In both scenarios, payment is at 50% of the personally performed rate to each provider. A medically supervised case involving an anesthesiologist and a CRNA is billed out with the –AD and –QX modifiers respectively and payment is limited to 3-4 total units to the anesthesiologist per CMS (4 units if documented presence at induction). The CRNA is still paid at 50% of the personally performed rate in this instance. CRNA's who perform non-medically directed anesthesia, most commonly seen in one of the "opt-out states", are billed out with the –QZ modifier under the CRNA's name and payment is 100% of the personally performed rate. Some Medicare carriers have also endorsed the –QZ modifier for "incomplete medical direction" when the group employs both the anesthesiologist and the CRNA
 
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Then failed to extubate after the case x 3, after the third time finally willing to call MD anesthesia (before that "No, I got this" - guess what, you dont) Next case, same CRNA, same bitching about him needing to make more money due to him being just as good as an MD anesthesiologist...

I'm sorry.... But how do you fail to extubate someone? I thought it was rather easy. Deflate cuff. Pull out.... And how do you fail it 3 times?



Sorry for derailing the thread.
 
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I'm sorry.... But how do you fail to extubate someone? I thought it was rather easy. Deflate cuff. Pull out.... And how do you fail it 3 times?



Sorry for derailing the thread.
He probably meant the patient didn't pass a SBT, not the actual maneuver of extubation.
 
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Tonsillectomy + neck dissection, ASA 3 with COPD and ?ILD (unclear from chart), case done by CRNA start to finish. The whole surgery, the CRNA complained loudly about being underpayed and needing to make the same as the physician due to the supposedly same qualification, MDs being needless / useless in the field bla bla. Then failed to extubate after the case x 3, after the third time finally willing to call MD anesthesia (before that "No, I got this" - guess what, you dont)
Next case, same CRNA, same bitching about him needing to make more money due to him being just as good as an MD anesthesiologist...

This disgusts me. Our general medicine attendings, most of whom are smart as hell and from top notch pedigrees, probably make on average 160k. These glorified anesthesia techs are complaining about being underpaid? F me.
 
Dear Colleague:


Knowing of your interest in ensuring patient access to safe, cost-effective anesthesia care, I am pleased to inform you that the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS) has now clarified and confirmed that anesthesiologist assistants (AAs) may not bill Medicare for nonmedically directed (billing code QZ) anesthesia services as CRNAs are educated and authorized to do.


In a policy transmittal dated May 30, 2013, the agency clarified the distinctions between CRNAs, who may practice autonomously and bill Medicare for their services, and AAs, whose services are covered by Medicare when they are medically directed by an anesthesiologist. Transmittal 2716 amends Chapter 12 of the Medicare Claims Processing Manual governing Medicare Part B coverage of anesthesia care.


Though Medicare Administrative Contractors (MACs) long held that AAs may not bill Medicare QZ, the Palmetto GBA MAC serving the states of California, Hawaii, Nevada, North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia and West Virginia published an email April 24 stating, "Palmetto GBA has received guidance that the QZ HCPCS modifier is also to be used for an Anesthesiologist Assistant (AA) service performed without medical direction." Noting that the Palmetto GBA action was inconsistent with Medicare regulations and payment manuals that say an AA is a "person who works under the direction of an anesthesiologist," AANA addressed the issue directly with Palmetto GBA and the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS).


The action taken by CMS represents an important development in anesthesia services coverage, clarifying what we already know: that CRNA and AA educational preparation and services are not the same, and that the Medicare program recognizes them differently. While Medicare recognizes CRNA services provided autonomously and with anesthesiologist medical direction, in contrast the agency only recognizes AA services under anesthesiologist medical direction. Many public and commercial health plans covering CRNA services follow Medicare's lead.


We commend the Medicare agency for having an open ear to AANA's concerns, following and appropriately clarifying the law, and promoting patient access to safe and cost-effective anesthesia care.


For all you do for the patients, practice and profession of nurse anesthesia, thank you.


Sincerely,
Janice Izlar AANA President

What's stupid about this is that NOTHING HAS CHANGED and NOTHING HAPPENED. AA's have always been billed under medical direction. Some idiot in a contracted CMS billing office (I think it was the same idiot that worked for the IRS in Cincinnatti dealing with non-profit corporations) did it the wrong way and the AANA in it's totally altruistic patient-oriented touchy-feely singing kum-ba-yah fascist way, decides they must step in and save the entire world. Good gawd!!!!!!!!!

What's REALLY stupid about this is that the bimbo AANA president decides this is some HUGE statement reqarding the qualifications and education of AA's compared to CRNA's. What a freaking idiot. And CRNA's (as an organization) wonder why they are generally hated by so many.
 
Guys, rather than complain on an internet forum.

Why not do something about it?

Start off by contributing to the ASAPAC. If your name isn't on the donor list, shame on you.
 
I'm from the Canadian system and doing my first rotation in the US at a major academic medical center. Holy smokes was that a culture shock. Yes, I read about the CRNA issue, but you don't get it until you actually SEE IT.

Tonsillectomy + neck dissection, ASA 3 with COPD and ?ILD (unclear from chart), case done by CRNA start to finish. The whole surgery, the CRNA complained loudly about being underpayed and needing to make the same as the physician due to the supposedly same qualification, MDs being needless / useless in the field bla bla. Then failed to extubate after the case x 3, after the third time finally willing to call MD anesthesia (before that "No, I got this" - guess what, you dont)
Next case, same CRNA, same bitching about him needing to make more money due to him being just as good as an MD anesthesiologist...

I need minor surgery (ACL repair), am ASA 1, but I'd rather wait 6 months up North to get it than have that CRNA do as much as give me the versed before the procedure


Still,
Thank you for sharing. This is a very telling and angering anecdote. Ridiculous.
 
Still,
Thank you for sharing. This is a very telling and angering anecdote. Ridiculous.

I have another one. I was working on an ICU and a RN was telling me how overpaid MD's are. Especially (according to this RN) anesthesiologists. He went on to say how easy their job is and how they don't need to do or know much to be successful at it. He had plans for CRNA school lol. He too was a habitual complainer about having do to any actual nursing for pts - he also had plans to eventually go to CRNA school. Sad case.
 
I have another one. I was working on an ICU and a RN was telling me how overpaid MD's are. Especially (according to this RN) anesthesiologists. He went on to say how easy their job is and how they don't need to do or know much to be successful at it. He had plans for CRNA school lol. He too was a habitual complainer about having do to any actual nursing for pts - he also had plans to eventually go to CRNA school. Sad case.

Yup, it's irritating. The old adage rings true: "If you want to be a doctor, go to medical school."

Then there's also crap like this happening: http://www.oregonrn.org/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=670

So if MD's are overpaid, nurses think they should be paid equally even though they have far less training? Ridiculous.
 
I have another one. I was working on an ICU and a RN was telling me how overpaid MD's are. Especially (according to this RN) anesthesiologists. He went on to say how easy their job is and how they don't need to do or know much to be successful at it. He had plans for CRNA school lol. He too was a habitual complainer about having do to any actual nursing for pts - he also had plans to eventually go to CRNA school. Sad case.

I would say about 60% of the MICU nurses at my institution have plans for advanced practice nursing or CRNA school. To top things off, because they're at a large academic center, they can work part-time and get their schooling paid for. So, basically they work at most 2-3 shifts a week, go to school that totals about 30 hours a week, and come out making 6 figs with zero student debt. Now, they don't have the cajones to talk sh** about MDs here, but I'm sure they're expecting parity with MDs after their "rigorous" training.
 
I would say about 60% of the MICU nurses at my institution have plans for advanced practice nursing or CRNA school. To top things off, because they're at a large academic center, they can work part-time and get their schooling paid for. So, basically they work at most 2-3 shifts a week, go to school that totals about 30 hours a week, and come out making 6 figs with zero student debt. Now, they don't have the cajones to talk sh** about MDs here, but I'm sure they're expecting parity with MDs after their "rigorous" training.

What do you think they say around their kitchen tables about the differences between MDs and NPs? What do you think they say when they meet a CEO or high level administrator or legislator in a social situation?

Think about that. Conduct yourself accordingly.
 
Yup, it's irritating. The old adage rings true: "If you want to be a doctor, go to medical school."

Then there's also crap like this happening: http://www.oregonrn.org/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=670

So if MD's are overpaid, nurses think they should be paid equally even though they have far less training? Ridiculous.

If the Oregon law which guarantees a NP the same reimbursement as a Family Practice MD
Is signed into law why would someone choose to be a family MD vs a NP?

If this law passes then the consumer will get far more NPs and few Physician Family Practitioners and Psychiatrists. The legislators are fools if they don't think free market economics plays a role in health care.
HB 2902 B, Payment Parity for NPs and PAs in Primary Care and Mental Health
UPDATE: HB 2902 B has passed Oregon's House and Senate and will move on to the Governor to be signed into law. Thank you for your support!

HB 2902 B would require insurance companies to reimburse nurse practitioners (NP) and physician assistants (PA) in independent practice the same rate as physicians when providing the same primary care and mental health services and billing under the same code. The bill defines independent practice as any nurse practitioner or physician assistant who bills under their own name and national provider identifier (NPI).
 
If the Oregon law which guarantees a NP the same reimbursement as a Family Practice MD
Is signed into law why would someone choose to be a family MD vs a NP?


You hit the nail on the head, Blade. Although Oregon is the first state to usher forward this specific pay parity legislation for PMDs, I believe it is a slippery slope, just like the CRNA situation.



If this law passes then the consumer will get far more NPs and few Physician Family Practitioners and Psychiatrists. The legislators are fools if they don't think free market economics plays a role in health care.
HB 2902 B, Payment Parity for NPs and PAs in Primary Care and Mental Health
UPDATE: HB 2902 B has passed Oregon’s House and Senate and will move on to the Governor to be signed into law. Thank you for your support!

HB 2902 B would require insurance companies to reimburse nurse practitioners (NP) and physician assistants (PA) in independent practice the same rate as physicians when providing the same primary care and mental health services and billing under the same code. The bill defines independent practice as any nurse practitioner or physician assistant who bills under their own name and national provider identifier (NPI).

.
 
If the Oregon law which guarantees a NP the same reimbursement as a Family Practice MD
Is signed into law why would someone choose to be a family MD vs a NP?

If this law passes then the consumer will get far more NPs and few Physician Family Practitioners and Psychiatrists. The legislators are fools if they don't think free market economics plays a role in health care.
HB 2902 B, Payment Parity for NPs and PAs in Primary Care and Mental Health
UPDATE: HB 2902 B has passed Oregon’s House and Senate and will move on to the Governor to be signed into law. Thank you for your support!

HB 2902 B would require insurance companies to reimburse nurse practitioners (NP) and physician assistants (PA) in independent practice the same rate as physicians when providing the same primary care and mental health services and billing under the same code. The bill defines independent practice as any nurse practitioner or physician assistant who bills under their own name and national provider identifier (NPI).

I think mid level providers are short sighted in their movement for independent practice.

They think they will earn close to same or even more money as docs. What's really going to happen is this

1. Mid levels will see probably a 10-20% bump. But corporations will be the ones handling their practices and taking a bigger cut n

2. Family docs will face a tremendous pressure from corporations and will just become W2 to hospital or private corporation and probably see same income but work even more for it.

End game is the added income mid levels think they will get will just get shifted to hospitals and corporations.

The system see no savings. The docs can't compete with this model.
 
If Oregon passes this into law will other states follow? What about Federal legislation? Don't forget the AANA is salivating at the thought of this bill becoming law. I have no doubt the AANA will be arguing their DNAP deserves equal pay from insurance companies in every state Capitol.

Those of you who think these laws are the end game for the nurses need to relax. Obamacare leads to a single payer system down the road. Obama would have preferred a single payer system now but instead he has to wait 7-10 years for the exorbitant cost of Health insurance, massive tax increases and increasing govt costs due to the subsidies to topple the system.
 
If Oregon passes this into law will other states follow? What about Federal legislation? Don't forget the AANA is salivating at the thought of this bill becoming law. I have no doubt the AANA will be arguing their DNAP deserves equal pay from insurance companies in every state Capitol.

Those of you who think these laws are the end game for the nurses need to relax. Obamacare leads to a single payer system down the road. Obama would have preferred a single payer system now but instead he has to wait 7-10 years for the exorbitant cost of Health insurance, massive tax increases and increasing govt costs due to the subsidies to topple the system.

I believe there is already provision in ACA for same payment across the board for same services.
 
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Despite continuing protests from some physician groups, the role of nurse practitioners (NPs) in U.S. health care is expanding and will likely change both the costs and type of care experienced by millions of Americans.

Partly driving this change is The Affordable Care Act, known as Obamacare, which will extend health care coverage to approximately 30 million more individuals, most of whom have not been able to afford health insurance in the past.

Predictions for a shortage of family practice doctors are adding to the impetus for a broader role for nurse practitioners, who are already the main non-physician providers of primary care. NPs have more advanced training than registered nurses (RNs), typically acquired through completion of a Master of Nursing or other graduate degree.

The effort to expand the scope of nurse practitioners' authority to treat patients, however, has been opposed by a number of physician groups, including the American Medical Association (AMA), the American Academy of Family Physicians, the American Academy of Pediatrics and the American Osteopathic Association, all of which support direct supervision of NPs by physicians. Some doctors -- concerned about the ability of NPs to diagnose complex illnesses -- have fought legislation on the state level that would allow these changes. Those in favor of giving NPs more authority say physicians are also worried about the loss of income they will face if too many patients opt to see an NP rather than an MD.

Physicians may be facing a losing battle. "That horse has already left the barn," says Linda Aiken, professor of nursing at the University of Pennsylvania School of Nursing and director of the Center for Health Outcomes and Policy Research. "With Obamacare coming in and millions of people getting insurance, there is no other way to provide them with reasonable access in the short term except to expand the role of NPs and physician assistants (PAs). It takes 20 years to train a doctor, so there isn't any alternative." According to an article titled, "Broadening the Scope of Nursing Practice," published in 2011 in The New England Journal of Medicine, "between three and 12 nurse practitioners can be educated for the price of educating one physician, and more quickly."

"Doctors have always been wary of others poaching on their turf," says Lawton R. Burns, Wharton professor of health care management. "And highly trained nurses are always looking for more recognition, responsibility and autonomy rather than being under a physician's thumb. It's these types of dynamics that pose a challenge to health care reform."

Comparable Care

In the U.S., each state is responsible for deciding and regulating what services health care practitioners are qualified to provide. According to a National Governors Association report in December, 16 states and the District of Columbia allow NPs to practice "completely independently of a doctor and to the full extent of their training -- i.e., diagnosing, treating and referring patients as well as prescribing medications." The remaining states require NPs to have some level of involvement with, or supervision by, a physician.

Wharton professor of health care management Robert J. Town, among others, questions the patchwork state regulatory system, including its restrictions on nurse practitioners' scope of practice. Giving NPs the right to treat patients and prescribe mediations without a doctor's supervision "doesn't seem to have any negative consequences, and it provides a lot of people with more access to primary care, whether it's in a retail clinic or whether it means patients can see their primary care provider without having to see the physician," he says.

Rules governing the scope of nurse practitioners' authority, he adds, "are determined by state legislatures, not by rational cost benefit analysis," and some of those legislatures have ruled against an expanded role for NPs "because of physician opposition. If doctors can keep nurses off their territory, it increases the number of patients these doctors can see and how much they get paid." But change may be on the way, he notes, "either because insurers are pushing to have more alternative providers available, or the alternative providers are getting greater clout with legislators. Or perhaps physicians know they are at capacity" and simply will not be able to take on all the new patients expected to be covered by Obamacare.

One health research group estimates that the country can expect a shortage of 90,000 doctors by 2020. Many of those shortages will be in the primary care field, in part because primary care physicians are typically paid significantly less than specialists.

Given predictions like these, Obamacare includes a number of incentives, including financial, that it hopes will encourage more physicians to specialize in family medicine. "We will have to see how that plays out in practice," says Ashley Swanson, Wharton professor of health care management, adding that "each side has a valid perspective. Physician groups may be concerned that changing the position of nurses, especially in primary care, will change doctors' reimbursement rates and their ability to continue practicing. Doctors are also concerned that NPs won't be able to provide the same kind of diagnostic quality of care."

That is the main argument put forth by the AMA and other physician groups. A spokesperson at the AMA did not provide the name of a physician to speak with, but did offer several policy statements with regard to physician assistants and nurse practitioners. These guidelines state, for example, that "the physician is responsible for managing the health care of patients in all settings" and "the physician is responsible for the supervision of the physician assistant in all settings."

Various press interviews with doctors indicate that they are not opposed to letting NPs handle such routine matters as earaches and immunizations, but object to giving them authority to treat more chronic diseases like diabetes, or conditions that involve more complicated diagnoses such as possible broken bones or concussions. One paper from a physician association suggested that allowing NPs to practice independently "would create two classes of care: one run by a physician-led team and one run by less-qualified health professionals.... Everyone deserves to be under the care of a doctor."

The move to expand nurse practitioners' authority has its supporters as well, ranging from the AARP to the American College of Physicians to the Institute of Medicine. In addition, "There are literally hundreds of studies showing that the care offered by NPs is comparable -- and in some cases, better, in terms of patient satisfaction -- than the care offered by doctors," says Aiken. "In other outcomes, like teaching patients how to take care of themselves, NPs do better as well."

According to a 2012 Health Policy Brief in Health Affairs, "a systematic review of 26 studies published since 2000 found that health status, treatment practices and prescribing behavior were consistent between NPs and physicians." And the authors of the New England Journal of Medicine article cited earlier write that while some physician groups suggest that their longer and more in-depth training means NPs "cannot deliver primary care services that are as high quality or safe as those of physicians ... there is no measureable difference in the quality of basic care services" when compared to the quality of care provided by NPs.

Good for Business

Heather Helle is COO and divisional vice president of Walgreens' Take Care Health Systems Consumer Solutions Group. Walgreens, headquartered in Deerfield, Ill., is the largest drug retailing chain in the U.S., with sales last year of $72 billion. The company has more than 370 "Take Care" clinics in 19 states, and more are on the way. NPs are typically the single provider on site, and in the clinic model, they often practice independently, providing care that "equals, and in some cases exceeds, what you find in a physician's office. They are a clinical resource that, for many years, has been underutilized," says Helle, adding that the company has contracts with most national and regional insurers. Walgreens' position, she states, is that "NPs are uniquely positioned to deliver high quality, affordable and convenient care. That has been the hallmark of the retail clinic industry."

The dynamics of health care have changed since the first retail clinics opened 12 years ago, Helle says, noting concerns back then about the autonomy of NPs and the quality of care they offered. But now, "with the advent of the Affordable Care Act and all the health challenges we are facing -- including a physician shortage, an aging population, the prevalence of chronic disease and more than 30 million more patients [eligible for coverage under Obamacare] -- you are seeing a real shift. Everyone used to say that we don't have enough primary care physicians to serve these patient populations. The conversation has now [moved] to, 'How do we think about ... leveraging NPs so that we are complementing doctors, health systems and communities?'"

Along those lines, the company's Take Care Health Systems Group is collaborating with Ochsner Health System in New Orleans to improve patient access to health care -- including, for example, after-hours care in their clinics so that "instead of clogging already overburdened emergency rooms (ERs), patients can be triaged in a more appropriate setting to get less expensive care with equal quality," says Helle. The collaboration will also facilitate and promote medical information sharing with patients and with patients' health care providers.

Other companies, as well, have seen the value of in-house clinics. CVS operates more than 600 drug store Minute Clinics in 24 states, while Walmart and Target offer clinics in their retail stores. That business model is expected to save companies -- and state health care budgets -- significant sums of money. A Rand Corporation study published 15 months ago in the American Journal of Managed Care reported that health care at retail clinics is 30% to 40% less expensive than similar care at a physician's office, and 80% less expensive than care provided in an ER. Research published in 2010 in Health Affairs calculates it another way: Between 13.7% and 27.1% of ER visits could have taken place at retail clinics or urgent care centers; in addition, some patients who go to retail clinics have saved $279 to $460 per visit compared to the cost of going to an ER.

Economics also is playing an increasing role in individual states' decisions on nurse practitioners' scope of practice. Companies like Walgreens and CVS that favor more autonomy for NPs "are exerting themselves on some of these policy decisions," notes Aiken. "If a state has restrictive practice requirements for nurses, it costs these companies a lot more to locate their [clinics] there. So you have a coalition opposing the AMA that wasn't there in the past."

The amount of money at issue isn't trivial. In its evaluation of the Massachusetts health reform legislation, first enacted in 2006 and later amended, the Rand Corporation concluded that if the state -- which has more restrictive rules governing NPs than some other states -- broadened the scope of practice for these NPs, it could save $8 billion over 10 years, in part by offering an option for health care besides expensive ERs. Convenient care centers can't operate in states like Massachusetts "without losing money," says Aiken.

Pennsylvania offers a different outcome. In January 2007, then-governor Edward Rendell announced Prescription for Pennsylvania (Rx for PA), a comprehensive blueprint for reforming the state's health care system. One of its major initiatives was to expand the legal scope of practice for NPs and other advanced practice registered nurses (APRNs). Within three years, 51 retail clinics using APRNs were set up through the state, providing care to 60% of the state's uninsured. It is estimated that about half of the 300,000 visits to these clinics would otherwise have been to ERs.

Insurers and big health systems, as well, have a role to play in what looks to be an ongoing restructuring of health care. "They are very supportive of NPs by, for example, using them to do utilization reviews and to act as case managers whose goal is to keep people out of hospitals," says Aiken. "And the federal government uses them to expand federally qualified health centers. NPs are everywhere."

Modified Reimbursements

The experience level of health care practitioners is a relevant issue in this debate, says David Asch, a physician, Wharton health care management professor and former executive director of the Leonard Davis Institute of Health Economics. "The value of education attenuates very rapidly. I will take a very experienced NP over an inexperienced doctor any day because so much of what people learn that will be of particular use comes after they have completed their degree program.... There is some optimal point of experience that is somewhere between right out of training and ready to retire."

He also notes that when he was chief of general medicine 20 years ago at the Philadelphia VA Medical Center, where he still practices, he hired NPs and PAs whose scope of practice was "virtually identical to doctors'. So this is nothing new. We are at a time when there is widespread recognition of shortages in some areas of health care, especially primary care, which can be substantially served by NPs and PAs."

Others agree. A report from the National Governors Association released two months ago recommends that states ease restrictions on NPs and modify their reimbursement policies to increase the role of nurse practitioners in providing primary care. As it is, NPs are typically paid less than physicians for providing the same service. For example, according to research published in Health Affairs, Medicare currently pays NPs at a rate that is 85% of what physicians receive; in Medicaid fee-for-service programs, more than half the states pay NPs a smaller percentage of the rates charged by physicians.

A report in 2010 from The Institute of Medicine titled, "The Future of Nursing: Leading Change, Advancing Health," recommended action "at the state and federal levels to allow NPs to practice to the full extent of their education," and suggested that Congress amend the Medicare law "to make coverage of NP services consistent with coverage of physician services."

For Wharton's Swanson, it gets down to making sure health care practitioners are fairly paid for their expertise and experience. "Both physicians and nurses have invested a lot in their education," she says. "They have a lot to lose, and they want to make sure their careers are safe going forward. We all want to make sure people are getting something for investing in their education. But at the same time, we are in a period of great flux. A lot of changes are happening because the current system no longer works."

Doctors and nurses, she adds, "are concerned about the uncertainty surrounding the Affordable Care Act. But in the long run, anything that makes our system more sustainable will be good for both groups."

Additional Reading
Looking for Solutions in a Rapidly Changing Health Care Environment: Knowledge@Wharton

'Multi-tasking Writ Large': Is Health Care Reform a Prescription for Trouble? Knowledge@Wharton

Health Care Reform: Life after the Supreme Court Debate: Knowledge@Wharton






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Dmitttman 0p · 21 weeks ago
Great article.
As a PA I applaud the changes taking place and the advancements being made by my NP colleagues. Please remember there are 100,000 PAs out there also who are excellent clinicians; ready, willing and able to serve as another answer to the nation's healthcare woes. Both professions are here to stay and will change the future of healthcare delivery across the USA and around the world. We are not going away.
Thanks for the article.
Dave Mittman, PA, DFAAPA
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-1
rwvidal 0p · 20 weeks ago
As an MD, I have say that there is a marked difference in training requirements and experience required before going into solo practice for MD's and NP/PA. These allied health professionals essentially learn on the job so an NP who has been working 1 mo have a marked difference in knowledge and ability than one who has been working 10 years. With MD's, residency forces us to be ready for "anything" and teaches latest advances. Many NP/PA learn from "old NPs and MDs" that have been doing things same way for years. Many that I have worked with cover their inexperience by ordering more tests or consults or using inappropriate meds/ or at wrong doses.
If you want to have solo NP/PAs then they need to go through a residency with certified instructors not just follow "nurse betty" or "dr john" at the local community clinic!!
 
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So the guy near end of the article states,"I will take a very experienced NP over a inexperienced new doc"

Ok than.

Cool.

What does he have to say if he had choice? New doc or new NP? And new NP is paid same rate as new doc.

People don't think when they write these article. They don't present fair and balance news reporting.

A newly minted doc is like Lebron James in 2003. High expectations, inexperienced but full of potential.

A newly minted NP is like an undrafted NBA player like Jeremy Lin. U know he's got some potential. But you also know his "ceiling as a player is limited". Can J Lin have a solid career? Absolutely. But it's going to take him a couple of years and lot of work.

Can both J Lin and LBJ be successful? Absolutely. But who would you rather have on day 1?

That's the way people should compare new NPs and new docs.

As for "experienced" NPs. It's like comparing a JLin with 7-8 years of NBA experience under his belt. He could be "veteran savvy" and outmaneuver a rookie LBJ. But LBJ will quickly surpass the "experienced JLin" cause he's got inherent knowledge and skill from day one. LBJ just fine tunes his inherent skills while JLin has to try to learn new tricks to stay in the business.
 
So the guy near end of the article states,"I will take a very experienced NP over a inexperienced new doc"

Ok than.

Cool.

What does he have to say if he had choice? New doc or new NP? And new NP is paid same rate as new doc.

People don't think when they write these article. They don't present fair and balance news reporting.

A newly minted doc is like Lebron James in 2003. High expectations, inexperienced but full of potential.

A newly minted NP is like an undrafted NBA player like Jeremy Lin. U know he's got some potential. But you also know his "ceiling as a player is limited". Can J Lin have a solid career? Absolutely. But it's going to take him a couple of years and lot of work.

Can both J Lin and LBJ be successful? Absolutely. But who would you rather have on day 1?

That's the way people should compare new NPs and new docs.

As for "experienced" NPs. It's like comparing a JLin with 7-8 years of NBA experience under his belt. He could be "veteran savvy" and outmaneuver a rookie LBJ. But LBJ will quickly surpass the "experienced JLin" cause he's got inherent knowledge and skill from day one. LBJ just fine tunes his inherent skills while JLin has to try to learn new tricks to stay in the business.
Yeah, but an NP will never have Linsanity.
 
A newly trained doc that comes from a good residency can hit PP with both feet firmly planted on the ground... especially if you are going to a bread and butter community hospital.

Let's take anesthesia for example:

Midway through CA-2 year until the end of residency, most ALL your cases are going to be good ones:

Hearts, vascular, peds (cranyocynastosis, omphalocele, TEF, micropeds, peds ortho, peds onc, scoli's), intracranial and extracranial neuro, big trauma, transplant (and I mean heart, liver, etc not a kidney transplant), ortho/onc (ie hemipelvectomies and disarticulations) high risk OB, etc, etc. This trend should continue until you graduate, and autonomy should be a focus once you are a CA-3.

Now some people are saying that a CRNA with extensive years of experience is going to be able to weather a difficult case better than a newly trained doc.

This may be true in some cases, but def. not a blanket statement.
Remember, residents get worked hard (and don't typically get relieved by a CRNA- rather the other way around). They get big exposure at a fast pace for 4 years. I remember doing 30+ hours straight. CRNA's get easy cases, and don't know what it's like to handle a big bleeding neuro/vascular trauma patient when you've been up for 24 hours. That kind of training gives you calyces where you need them.

My first case in PP was a CEA. It was butter. That same month I started doing hearts. My sphincter was a little tight at first... but mainly because I was working with a new crew. That went away fast. Soon after I arrived at my new gig, I had to tube a 21 week newborn and do NALS including epi down the tube. Butter. I had done it before and knew what to do.

What IS difficult is learning how cpt codes, learning a new system and learning about the culture of the new group and work environment.

Any good academic institution should prepare/over prepare you for bread and butter anesthesia.

I don't buy this BS that a CRNA that has been in practice for 10 years is better at providing safe anesthesia than a newly minted diplomat of the ABA. When $hit hits the fan, it's the years of training that come to surface in nanoseconds. Give that newly minted diplomat another 4 years and now that knowledge/clinical gap is ever increasingly wider.

Again, some CRNA's are awesome, and can function independently, but that is def. not the norm... even when they have 15 years under their belt.

Just my 2 cents.
.
 
2. Family docs will face a tremendous pressure from corporations and will just become W2 to hospital or private corporation and probably see same income but work even more for it.

End game is the added income mid levels think they will get will just get shifted to hospitals and corporations.

The system see no savings. The docs can't compete with this model.

When considering ACA mandated hospital bonuses for employing physicians and penalties for non hospital employed docs, we're all likely to be drawing W-2s from a large faceless organization.