Lifestyle as surgery attending immediately after residency

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Dares Dareson

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So...I heard that immediately after residency, you actually end up working more hours than you did as a resident because you have to establish yourself as a surgeon as well as being the junior partner in whatever practice you join. Is there truth to this? How long does it take to become "established" to where you can kind of make your practice what you want it to be? I guess, what is it like the first five years after residency as a general (or sub specialty) surgeon?

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For me, I would say that I worked less than I did as a fellow, but probably more than I did as a chief. Certainly it FEELS like I work more than I did as a chief but that could be mostly due to how fun and relaxing my chief year was compared to how stressful and terrifying my first year in practice has been. But I'm in an academic position in a field that doesnt routinely do like 20 cases/week, so it may not be applicable.

I think in general due to lack of established referral base, most surgeons are not all that busy in their first year, at least in terms of case volume, but do more call, more getting out and meeting the referring docs, stuff like that. Also things just take you a LOT longer. Just wait and see how long your first attending lap chole with a pgy3 takes you, wait and see how long it takes you to see and think about and make a plan on your first redo redo symptomatic central hernia on dialysis.
 
I have my wife to thank for this since she became an attending before me and I've been in a unique position to watch her go through that learning curve. Doing peer-to-peer review with insurance companies, getting monthly RVU tracking reports, taking longer on a thyroid solo than she ever did as a resident, coming home with ulcers because she had a bad redo ear and thought she got into brain, etc. This has done two things for me:

1. It made me realize how awesome it is to actually be a resident and practice medicine under someone else's name.
2. It made me respect how easy some of my attendings make it look.
3. Because I can't count, it has also made me read more and prepare more because that is really a nice remedy for the jitters when things don't go as planned.

I'll also echo vhawk. My wife definitely works more than she did as a fellow but not has hard as she did her chief year (her words not mine). She still pulls 80-90 hour weeks depending on her call schedule, as do her partners. But long story short, you'll be working for the rest of your life as a surgeon and unless you do something that has zero call (my buddy is a sports med ortho and recently joined a practice where he never takes call...ever) you'll be hauling ass your first couple of years to get your practice up to speed before your two year guarantee runs out. Hope this helps. Cheers.
 
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What kind of surgeon is your wife, if I may ask? I see thyroid and ear so I assume ENT...
 
What kind of surgeon is your wife, if I may ask? I see thyroid and ear so I assume ENT...

Yup - ENT. Did a fellowship in otology/neurotology and hence she gets a lot of the chronic and redo ears along with implants in the practice. Lots of airway emergencies that she gets called for as well.
 
I thought I was going to be terribly busy for the reasons you mentioned. It has actually been really easy. I do a case, I leave. The ER works up patients and has a diagnosis before they call me. The hospitalists handle the medical problems and dispo. I think I'll be busier in the future but with competent ER docs and hospitalists, there isn't a lot of BS for me to deal with. Just seeing consults, doing cases, going home. I am in private practice.
 
I thought I was going to be terribly busy for the reasons you mentioned. It has actually been really easy. I do a case, I leave. The ER works up patients and has a diagnosis before they call me. The hospitalists handle the medical problems and dispo. I think I'll be busier in the future but with competent ER docs and hospitalists, there isn't a lot of BS for me to deal with. Just seeing consults, doing cases, going home. I am in private practice.

And you are GS? Did you join a practice or is it your own? Thanks.
 
I thought I was going to be terribly busy for the reasons you mentioned. It has actually been really easy. I do a case, I leave. The ER works up patients and has a diagnosis before they call me. The hospitalists handle the medical problems and dispo. I think I'll be busier in the future but with competent ER docs and hospitalists, there isn't a lot of BS for me to deal with. Just seeing consults, doing cases, going home. I am in private practice.

I noticed a similar practice style with a private practice surgeon I worked with. If you don’t mind, what’s your income like? Salary or salary+RVU? And what can you expect working reasonably sane hours?
 
I noticed a similar practice style with a private practice surgeon I worked with. If you don’t mind, what’s your income like? Salary or salary+RVU? And what can you expect working reasonably sane hours?

If he’s truly straight private practice, it’s likely eat what you kill after a year or two of salary guarantee.
 
A plug for community acute care surgery: these jobs are becoming more common where you cover 25% of the call spread over 26 weeks a year with 26 weeks off. Depending on the job, you could work 60-100 hours during your work week, but you get time off instead. These tend to be salaried positions with RVU thresholds above which you get paid more.
 
A plug for community acute care surgery: these jobs are becoming more common where you cover 25% of the call spread over 26 weeks a year with 26 weeks off. Depending on the job, you could work 60-100 hours during your work week, but you get time off instead. These tend to be salaried positions with RVU thresholds above which you get paid more.
In this setting you're covering all the trauma right? How much do you operate? I'm only an M2 but from what I've heard it sounded like more trauma these days is being managed non-operatively than in the past. Is that actually true or is there still plenty of stuff to do?
 
In this setting you're covering all the trauma right? How much do you operate? I'm only an M2 but from what I've heard it sounded like more trauma these days is being managed non-operatively than in the past. Is that actually true or is there still plenty of stuff to do?

Probably depends on the contract. Sometimes you can just do ACS without the trauma and yes, a lot of trauma today is being managed non-operatively with the majority being blunt. At very select centers do you see a huge chunk of penetrating trauma. The unfortunate thing with trauma is that there are a lot of old people that fall and go boom with head bleeds and hip fractures. However, there is a huge need for ACS in the rural setting and if you're so inclined, you can go into a community and provide really top notch care for many people without their families having to drive over an hour to a tertiary center. You'll know if this is your jam once you start doing it as a resident, it truly does have to be lived and experienced.
 
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In this setting you're covering all the trauma right? How much do you operate? I'm only an M2 but from what I've heard it sounded like more trauma these days is being managed non-operatively than in the past. Is that actually true or is there still plenty of stuff to do?

Depends on the hospital. The couple of community ACS jobs I looked at had minimal trauma. So, you are operating on ACS patients, not trauma patients.
 
For these ACS jobs, do they require Surgical Critical Care/Trauma fellowship?
 
If he’s truly straight private practice, it’s likely eat what you kill after a year or two of salary guarantee.

That’s what I figured. Thanks for your help. Any idea where I can find some reliable information about salaries in general surgery vs various fellowships through Gen surg ( vascular, CT, colorectal, breast, etc)? I am really interested in Gen surg due to the wide variety and possibility to sub-specialize but it is frustrating that I can’t find information about what the lifestyle, hours, pay, patient population, etc is like for each specialty. All I know so far is vascular is a lot of chronic disease patients with long hours but incredible procedures (I’m currently interested in doing vascular fellowship after Gen surg).
 
That’s what I figured. Thanks for your help. Any idea where I can find some reliable information about salaries in general surgery vs various fellowships through Gen surg ( vascular, CT, colorectal, breast, etc)? I am really interested in Gen surg due to the wide variety and possibility to sub-specialize but it is frustrating that I can’t find information about what the lifestyle, hours, pay, patient population, etc is like for each specialty. All I know so far is vascular is a lot of chronic disease patients with long hours but incredible procedures (I’m currently interested in doing vascular fellowship after Gen surg).

The reason you can’t find salary info is that it varies widely based on geographic location, urban vs rural vs suburban, private vs academic, etc. For example, gen surg will be 250-500k+ depending on location, practice type, etc. Doesn’t include RVUs/incentives, loan forgiveness, relocation, etc. Call schedule varies widely too based on all these factors, depending on call pool size, number of hospitals. If money is all that matters you can get a solo practice (no call pool) in North Dakota for 600k. But the general rule is that for money significantly above the mean there’s something less desireable about the job.

The same variability holds true for patient population depending on location, etc. except vascular patients. Yes they are all sick. Lifestyle also varies by practice setting.

There is MGMA data but you have to pay for it. The best way to get an idea of this is to talk to mentors in a given field. You need to have an idea of where you want to practice and what setting to get an idea of reimbursement.

In general, for just about anything:

northeast < southeast = Midwest < remote northern tundra
Urban < suburban < rural
Academic < hybrid< Private
 
The reason you can’t find salary info is that it varies widely based on geographic location, urban vs rural vs suburban, private vs academic, etc. For example, gen surg will be 250-500k+ depending on location, practice type, etc. Doesn’t include RVUs/incentives, loan forgiveness, relocation, etc. Call schedule varies widely too based on all these factors, depending on call pool size, number of hospitals. If money is all that matters you can get a solo practice (no call pool) in North Dakota for 600k. But the general rule is that for money significantly above the mean there’s something less desireable about the job.

The same variability holds true for patient population depending on location, etc. except vascular patients. Yes they are all sick. Lifestyle also varies by practice setting.

There is MGMA data but you have to pay for it. The best way to get an idea of this is to talk to mentors in a given field. You need to have an idea of where you want to practice and what setting to get an idea of reimbursement.

In general, for just about anything:

northeast < southeast = Midwest < remote northern tundra
Urban < suburban < rural
Academic < hybrid< Private

I certainly get that things vary but it’s nice to be informed that if you want to make 500k in Gen surg, you’ll need to be in solo practice in the middle of nowhere or be business savvy.
For ortho, as an example, we know 500k salaries are quite common.

It would be nice to have similar information about other surg specialties, like peds surg will make ~400k in a medium sized town vs ~300k in a popular city vs ~200k in academia (just made those numbers up).

Money certainly isn’t my main motivation, I love to operate. But setting expectations is important. I plan to be in a smaller town, not necessarily rural though, and in PP.

And hope I am not hijacking OP’s thread.
 
I certainly get that things vary but it’s nice to be informed that if you want to make 500k in Gen surg, you’ll need to be in solo practice in the middle of nowhere or be business savvy.
For ortho, as an example, we know 500k salaries are quite common.

It would be nice to have similar information about other surg specialties, like peds surg will make ~400k in a medium sized town vs ~300k in a popular city vs ~200k in academia (just made those numbers up).

Money certainly isn’t my main motivation, I love to operate. But setting expectations is important. I plan to be in a smaller town, not necessarily rural though, and in PP.

And hope I am not hijacking OP’s thread.

I'm in the process of looking for jobs right now and to couple onto what @LucidSplash says, there is a reason the data isn't available. Everything is hyper variable and honestly after the first two years, unless you are in true blue academics, your take home pay is going to be modulated by the 4As and a little bit of luck. Also, unlike schools where there are at least in the broadest sense of the term, 'tiers', jobs do not fit neatly into little buckets like 'academics' 'hybrid' and 'private practice'. The variability within each of those is massive. How different practices are setup varies tremendously. And, as the vast majority of surgeons will tell you, the nominal starting salary is typically one of the least important aspects of your contract when you get to that point. There are typically reasons behind what their offers are, usually tied to MGMA or hospital/system rules or whatever. The important aspects are just about everything else.
 
The reason you can’t find salary info is that it varies widely based on geographic location, urban vs rural vs suburban, private vs academic, etc. For example, gen surg will be 250-500k+ depending on location, practice type, etc. Doesn’t include RVUs/incentives, loan forgiveness, relocation, etc. Call schedule varies widely too based on all these factors, depending on call pool size, number of hospitals. If money is all that matters you can get a solo practice (no call pool) in North Dakota for 600k. But the general rule is that for money significantly above the mean there’s something less desireable about the job.

The same variability holds true for patient population depending on location, etc. except vascular patients. Yes they are all sick. Lifestyle also varies by practice setting.

There is MGMA data but you have to pay for it. The best way to get an idea of this is to talk to mentors in a given field. You need to have an idea of where you want to practice and what setting to get an idea of reimbursement.

In general, for just about anything:

northeast < southeast = Midwest < remote northern tundra
Urban < suburban < rural
Academic < hybrid< Private


That MGMA data is posted somewhere on SDN...
 
I certainly get that things vary but it’s nice to be informed that if you want to make 500k in Gen surg, you’ll need to be in solo practice in the middle of nowhere or be business savvy.
For ortho, as an example, we know 500k salaries are quite common.

It would be nice to have similar information about other surg specialties, like peds surg will make ~400k in a medium sized town vs ~300k in a popular city vs ~200k in academia (just made those numbers up).

Money certainly isn’t my main motivation, I love to operate. But setting expectations is important. I plan to be in a smaller town, not necessarily rural though, and in PP.

And hope I am not hijacking OP’s thread.


Private practice general surgery in a smaller town? Good luck with that. PP is going away; your options will be very limited by the time you're out of residency.
 
Private practice general surgery in a smaller town? Good luck with that. PP is going away; your options will be very limited by the time you're out of residency.

Maybe PP, but not gen surg in a rural area. Surgery is what keeps smaller community based hospitals open. There’s some papers on the subject. Likely will move to more hospital employed, but will def still exist. Several of my co-residents went into hospital employed or group practice in gen surg straight out of residency. In NYC? No. But outside of ATL, Huntsville and in smaller cities? Yes.
 
Maybe PP, but not gen surg in a rural area. Surgery is what keeps smaller community based hospitals open. There’s some papers on the subject. Likely will move to more hospital employed, but will def still exist. Several of my co-residents went into hospital employed or group practice in gen surg straight out of residency. In NYC? No. But outside of ATL, Huntsville and in smaller cities? Yes.


You're right. But I was responding to the poster who's focused on PP.
 
I thought I was going to be terribly busy for the reasons you mentioned. It has actually been really easy. I do a case, I leave. The ER works up patients and has a diagnosis before they call me. The hospitalists handle the medical problems and dispo. I think I'll be busier in the future but with competent ER docs and hospitalists, there isn't a lot of BS for me to deal with. Just seeing consults, doing cases, going home. I am in private practice.
This has been similar to my experience (with the occasional not so great er doc or hospitalist so some night calls that could wait till daylight). My first year out I stayed on as attending where I trained and worked much fewer hours (instead of every other night home call I shared call with 5 other attendings, instead of running my own clinic every week I staffed clinic in a rotation with the 5 others, residents did all the notes and orders though I did check up on stuff and went through med student notes, had good chiefs so I often just hung out while they took the junior through cases) also.
 
Starting as an attending was awesome for me---my hours were more regular, no more 5-6 am rounding, no more in-house call. While I have some crazy weeks, it doesn't compare to residency hours (which were always "80 hours") or the misery of others dictating your hours for you. You work hard, but it's different as you are in more control and can do things how you want to do it and are figuring out what works for you instead of living in fear you did it differently than what your [residency superiors] wanted and are going to get yelled at. And there's a lot more people asking you how you want them to do something to make you happy; this was the thing that was the biggest surprise to me when I started. It's like apples and oranges. Not that everything is always rosy when out in practice, far from it, but it's completely different than being a resident.
 
I don't have the energy or time to give this response what I think it deserves, as I believe you've asked an extremely important question.

However, I do want to chime in. I am in an academic specialty practice, and I work very long hours...but keep in mind that how many hours you work and how busy you are can sometimes be discordant.

In general, you can work more or less than you did as a resident depending on your practice and on your goals. If you work more, you'll likely make more money and build a stronger practice than if you work less and say "no," etc....that is assuming you don't burn out, which is a major concern. Of note, general surgeons and subspecialties of general surgery can make plenty of money, and $500K is by no means the ceiling or a major outlier as you progress.

What's different about being a practicing surgeon is that you have much more control over your schedule....you may PLACE YOURSELF in a practice environment where you don't feel you have control, but you have the opportunity to change that environment, etc. You can become a community EGS/trauma surgeon and have multiple weeks off/year as described above, or join a hospital practice in an environment where the other docs do lots of your busy-work, and all you do is see patients, operate, and go home...and you'll find yourself working less and still making plenty of money.

In academics, I was shocked by the number of competing interests....I have to be a clinician, researcher, teacher, administrator, committee member, editor, mentor to junior faculty, mentor to residents/students...father, husband, son....I have to work harder to take care of my own health than I did in my 20's.....when you feel like a slave to too many masters, the biggest concern is that you'll start under-performing in multiple areas due to lack of time/dedication. Because most of us are workaholics, we allow certain things that are actually the MOST important...time with family, sleep, exercise, hobbies....to be sacrificed first. Meanwhile, things that are actually less important...committees, national meetings, manuscripts, editorial boards, medical directorships....survive longer.

I know I'm not alone because I see it in the backstories of tenured professors. However, things are much different now than they were back then. For instance, there's a much bigger push toward RVUs and productivity than there used to be...more clinics, more cases, more techniques to master, etc. Also, without sounding misogynistic, doctor's wives in the 1970s were willing to put up with more of our crap than they are now...I can' speak to doctor's husbands but I would assume it's similar.

Looking back, when I was a resident, all I had to do was study and work. It was much simpler. Still, it's important to know that a lot of my burden was self-inflicted...especially the professional choices. Again, I have more control over things than I want to believe.

That was long-winded, but I wanted to make sure the OP understood that there's not a straight answer, and I also wanted to warn newer faculty to keep their priorities straight. I'm lucky that my wife and kids still want me around, as I believe my behavior in the first 5-6 years of practice was very selfish and difficult to tolerate. I think I do a better job now than I did, but it's still a daily struggle to balance everything.
 
Starting as an attending was awesome for me---my hours were more regular, no more 5-6 am rounding, no more in-house call. While I have some crazy weeks, it doesn't compare to residency hours (which were always "80 hours") or the misery of others dictating your hours for you. You work hard, but it's different as you are in more control and can do things how you want to do it and are figuring out what works for you instead of living in fear you did it differently than what your [residency superiors] wanted and are going to get yelled at. And there's a lot more people asking you how you want them to do something to make you happy; this was the thing that was the biggest surprise to me when I started. It's like apples and oranges. Not that everything is always rosy when out in practice, far from it, but it's completely different than being a resident.

Agree. Not having to round at 5-6 am anymore was the best thing ever. That was awful.
 
They keep offering me 730 start times and I keep telling them I don't like to start so early 🙂
Ha! I’d start at 600 if I could just so I could be home by two.

Only one of the surgery centers I go to lets me start that early; everyplace else, hospitals & ASC‘s are all 730.
 
Private practice general surgery in a smaller town? Good luck with that. PP is going away; your options will be very limited by the time you're out of residency.
Depends on what you mean. True old school hang up a shingle solo private practice, sure, but I think most would consider a multispecialty group practice not affiliated with an academic center to still be "private practice" and that model seems to be thriving. The academic centers have been outcompeted by that model over the last decade and are now finally starting to catch on and mold their approach
 
Its champagne, fast cars, and women basically all of the time. Which is great, unless you're a gay man or a straight woman, and then it's somewhat less amazing but the cars and the booze are still good. But, it's a non-negotiable situation.
 
Its champagne, fast cars, and women basically all of the time. Which is great, unless you're a gay man or a straight woman, and then it's somewhat less amazing but the cars and the booze are still good. But, it's a non-negotiable situation.

Wait is it too late to switch
 
Critical care fellowship is required for academic jobs and helps significantly for community jobs also. In the next five years, critical care might be necessary for even community ACS jobs in larger cities
Or just come to my town and ask to be in the call pool. I will let you take all my calls off my hands without any kind of fellowship.
 
Or just come to my town and ask to be in the call pool. I will let you take all my calls off my hands without any kind of fellowship.

Yea, those jobs exist but a true ACS job is best done by someone who is critical care trained. Both because we deal with sick patients and also to have someone who can staff the SICU. Hospitals that aren’t busy enough to have a dedicated SICU probably don’t need a true ACS service and anyone can cover “the call pool”.
 
Yea, those jobs exist but a true ACS job is best done by someone who is critical care trained. Both because we deal with sick patients and also to have someone who can staff the SICU. Hospitals that aren’t busy enough to have a dedicated SICU probably don’t need a true ACS service and anyone can cover “the call pool”.
Obviously you haven’t seen community hospitals where the ICUs are being “managed“ by nurse practitioners. That seems to be more of the wave of the future than hiring fellowship trained physicians sadly.
 
Obviously you haven’t seen community hospitals where the ICUs are being “managed“ by nurse practitioners. That seems to be more of the wave of the future than hiring fellowship trained physicians sadly.
To be fair, it’s a great way to improve healthcare costs. Smaller salaries and patients spend way less time in the ICU when they die. In fact, measured strictly by “length of stay” as a metric of quality, this might be the best option.
 
To be fair, it’s a great way to improve healthcare costs. Smaller salaries and patients spend way less time in the ICU when they die. In fact, measured strictly by “length of stay” as a metric of quality, this might be the best option.

Though to be fair, I'd rather have some of the SICU NPs taking care of my surgical patients than the rotating cadre of medicine CCMs we get at a few of our places.
 
Obviously you haven’t seen community hospitals where the ICUs are being “managed“ by nurse practitioners. That seems to be more of the wave of the future than hiring fellowship trained physicians sadly.

I’ve seen the spectrum of ICUs managed by no one (free for all) to well oiled machines. I think community hospitals that are robust enough to have acute care surgeons on staff will have better managed icu’s. But I know the spectrum is out there...
 
To be fair, it’s a great way to improve healthcare costs. Smaller salaries
except when these “Hospitalists” (yes that’s what they’re calling themselves) demand the same $$ from clueless administrators.

...and patients spend way less time in the ICU when they die. In fact, measured strictly by “length of stay” as a metric of quality, this might be the best option.

:roflcopter:
 
Where do you work? Shangri-La Memorial?
I work in a major city close to two of the top medical schools, and the private hospital is mostly staffed by their graduates. It's pretty awesome. I hate working with dummies.
 
I work in a major city close to two of the top medical schools, and the private hospital is mostly staffed by their graduates. It's pretty awesome. I hate working with dummies.

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