List of programs expanding

[deleted947887]

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Can we create a thread that lists programs planning to expand or startup (AKA specialty destroyers)?

Tenessee
Augusta University
East Carolina
Florida International University
Drexel

 

[RickyScott]

I can certainly pledge never to hire a graduate from one of these programs or west virginia, arkansas, penn state.

 

[ChandlerD22]

I can certainly pledge never to hire a graduate from one of these programs or west virginia, arkansas, penn state.

I’m curious as to why you feel this way. Do you care to expound?


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[Ray D. Ayshun]

As is clear from posts on here and meeting with applicants the last few years, there is very much a disparity in ultimate geographic preference, with many preferring to go to, or stay in, places that are already saturated. In turn, while there is a national over-supply, it appears there are many areas that are under supplied. Perhaps it's just as fair to make a list of large programs that aren't contracting despite continuing to spit residents out into markets that don't need them.

 

[medgator]

Perhaps it's just as fair to make a list of large programs that aren't contracting despite continuing to spit residents out into markets that don't need them.

Yup. Several new programs came into existence this past decade. On top of existing programs that have expanded, I would guess over 3/4ths of programs would be on this list

 

[Neuronix]

As is clear from posts on here and meeting with applicants the last few years, there is very much a disparity in ultimate geographic preference, with many preferring to go to, or stay in, places that are already saturated. In turn, while there is a national over-supply, it appears there are many areas that are under supplied. Perhaps it's just as fair to make a list of large programs that aren't contracting despite continuing to spit residents out into markets that don't need them.

"You should contract!" -- "You shouldn't expand!"

This is the problem. Every program points the finger at the other program.

But many still expand and nobody contracts. Until something dramatic happens, I don't see things changing.

 

[OTN]

Medical students need to understand that, even in a GOOD job market, entering into a brand-new program makes it more difficult to find work after graduation, as the network of prior grads just isn't there.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

I mean ECU has 3 (three!) faculty listed on their website.

WTF?

 

[deleted941485]

Can we create a thread that lists programs planning to expand or startup (AKA specialty destroyers)?

Tenessee
Augusta University
East Carolina
Florida International University
Drexel

That list is too short.

First of all every Philadelphia program is expanding. Jeff, FCCC, and Penn.

Also heart a certain health system in rural Pennsylvania are also really “excited” and starting there own residency program.

I also heard a certain health system in south jersey wants to open up a program.

LIJ also looking to add another resident per year from what I’m hearing

I’m sure they’re all really excited about it and apparently there’s a sucker born every minute in med school.

 

[RickyScott]

It is so irresponsible to start a new program in today, that I have no problem refusing to hire grads from those places. (I am med director at community program with several satellites, but dont see us hiring anytime soon because our hospital treats docs well and there are no opportunities in my region anyway.)

With the fall in applicants, those who enter now will have their pick of programs, and they should not choose a new one. This is not a maldistribution problem, it is a problem of too many docs. The rural sites and exploitative ones will fill up.

 

[Gfunk6]

I am interested in the best candidate for our practice. Where they trained is of secondary importance at best. I find that, for me, politics and business don’t mix.


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[RickyScott]

I am interested in the best candidate for our practice. Where they trained is of secondary importance at best. I find that, for me, politics and business don’t mix.


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I dont expect there to be agreement on this. In 5-10 years, the "best" candidate for a community practice will no longer be in the specialty because of unchecked expansion. I also disagree that there is a singular best candidate or that I would be able to tell. The problem is that there will be too many candidates in 5 years, so why should I take one from a program that is slapping the specialty in the face. Opening a new residency program right now is an act of incredibly bad faith and they should be tracked and boycotted.

There is a real social injustice to this unchecked expansion. It is a wasted utilization of government subsidized training and medical school, as well as the talented docs (who have been misled by ASTRO and their programs.) In my neck of the woods, I see a lot of overutilization of radiation in some of the freestanding centers by employed docs, who I sense are insecure in their jobs,

 

[Ray D. Ayshun]

"You should contract!" -- "You shouldn't expand!"

This is the problem. Every program points the finger at the other program.

But many still expand and nobody contracts. Until something dramatic happens, I don't see things changing.

My point was more that it is kind of unfair to blame a place that nobody seems to want to go for taking matters into their own hands. It seems more fair to blame the places that are knowingly producing graduates that only want to be where there are already too many.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

One of the absolute worst offenders is Stanford. Absolutely disgusting. Expand expand. Even keep their own as “fellows”

 

[Neuronix]

My point was more that it is kind of unfair to blame a place that nobody seems to want to go for taking matters into their own hands. It seems more fair to blame the places that are knowingly producing graduates that only want to be where there are already too many.

In my opinion this is a nonsensical argument. Just because someone will come somewhere to train doesn't mean that's where they intend to stay.

 

[Ray D. Ayshun]

In my opinion this is a nonsensical argument. Just because someone will come somewhere to train doesn't mean that's where they intend to stay.

It sounds like gfunk is having to evaluate applicantions for a position with his practice in order to increase the likelihood that a new hire is likely to stay long-term. It’s America, though, and they can leave if they want. Just the same, wvu training a resident from wv is more likely to increase the number of radoncs in wv than hoping one comes down from Pitt, or over from mdacc. Nothing’s guaranteed, but it’s clearly more likely that state schools training local people will fix local shortages, should they exist.

 

[RickyScott]

It sounds like gfunk is having to evaluate applicantions for a position with his practice in order to increase the likelihood that a new hire is likely to stay long-term. It’s America, though, and they can leave if they want. Just the same, wvu training a resident from wv is more likely to increase the number of radoncs in wv than hoping one comes down from Pitt, or over from mdacc. Nothing’s guaranteed, but it’s clearly more likely that state schools training local people will fix local shortages, should they exist.

I dont believe there is a maldistribution, but that there are just too many residents being produced. If a location is non desirable, they should pay more. A long term guarantee of a salary in the 75% MGMA would make many of us move (including myself) to the vast majority of the continental us. What you are ignoring is that soon or later, even the rural jobs will fill up under present conditions. They just happen to be what is left now, but it is reasonable to believe that in 5-10 years, even jobs in BFE will be in short supply.

 

[Ray D. Ayshun]

I dont believe there is a maldistribution, but that there are just too many residents being produced. If a location is non desirable, they should pay more. A long term guarantee of a salary in the 75% MGMA would make many of us move (including myself) to the vast majority of the continental us. What you are ignoring is that soon or later, even the rural jobs will fill up under present conditions. They just happen to be what is left now, but it is reasonable to believe that in 5-10 years, even jobs in BFE will be in short supply.

I'm not ignoring that fact. I get it. It's pretty much all that's talked about here. I don't support expansion, but I have the perspective of a resident at a strong academic program, not a cancer patient in the hills of WVa. I'm simply saying that these under-served areas might be trying to fix a supply shortage, and maybe a salary in the 75% MGMA isn't the most reasonable approach. Rather, training someone who's lived there, and wants to live there, and will accept a salary that will allow them to live well enough, is more reasonable.

Maybe it's more nefarious than that. Maybe they just want somebody to do their scut given that the attendings at these places have gone to BFE and aren't getting 75% MGMA. The purpose of this thread was to point out, and, I don't know, put a Scarlet Letter on the new programs because they're destroying our field. Perhaps it's not so simple. Maybe there are noble reasons. I do believe there is a maldistribution problem, so perhaps we'll keep talking past each other.

 

[RickyScott]

I'm not ignoring that fact. I get it. It's pretty much all that's talked about here. I don't support expansion, but I have the perspective of a resident at a strong academic program, not a cancer patient in the hills of WVa. I'm simply saying that these under-served areas might be trying to fix a supply shortage, and maybe a salary in the 75% MGMA isn't the most reasonable approach. Rather, training someone who's lived there, and wants to live there, and will accept a salary that will allow them to live well enough, is more reasonable.

Maybe it's more nefarious than that. Maybe they just want somebody to do their scut given that the attendings at these places have gone to BFE and aren't getting 75% MGMA. The purpose of this thread was to point out, and, I don't know, put a Scarlet Letter on the new programs because they're destroying our field. Perhaps it's not so simple. Maybe there are noble reasons. I do believe there is a maldistribution problem, so perhaps we'll keep talking past each other.

Pitt (a very large department) and Allegheny are only an hour from this program and can easily supply the state of WV. I am not sure there are even jobs available in WV to begin with. Many of these new programs are not rural, but within 2 hours of highly desirable areas- long island, miami/fiu, philadelphia, southern nj. Lastly regarding the "scarlet letter," I practice in a very desirable area, so residents from those programs shouldnt be applying to my practice, but staying where they are and serving their communities, according to you. (although after 2 or 3 classes, there will be no jobs left in WV, if there were any to begin with.) Regarding maldistribution, we are replacing the entire number of radiation oncologists every 20 years as things stand.

 

[medgator]

Pitt (a very large department) and Allegheny are only an hour from this program and can easily supply the state of WV.

WV is within the catchment area for patients getting specialized care at upmc. Not clear to me why WVU would need a residency program when wvu residents can go to Pitt to train and go back when they are finished

 

[deleted950463]

It is so irresponsible to start a new program in today, that I have no problem refusing to hire grads from those places. (I am med director at community program with several satellites, but dont see us hiring anytime soon because our hospital treats docs well and there are no opportunities in my region anyway.)

With the fall in applicants, those who enter now will have their pick of programs, and they should not choose a new one. This is not a maldistribution problem, it is a problem of too many docs. The rural sites and exploitative ones will fill up.

So let me get this right, you are planning to hurt those programs by not hiring their graduates? What have their graduates done to you? Maybe they just lost the match lottery and had to go to their 12th choice.

 

[RickyScott]

So let me get this right, you are planning to hurt those programs by not hiring their graduates? What have their graduates done to you? Maybe they just lost the match lottery and had to go to their 12th choice.

Yes. There are already more residency spots than US applicants, and it will only get worse. US med students dont have to apply to these programs (which havent even opened yet) to guarantee a match in this field.

 

[deleted18755]

Regarding maldistribution, we are replacing the entire number of radiation oncologists every 20 years as things stand.

I’ve lived in rural and “undesirable” places my entire life ... what some of you are missing is the obvious: very few people live here! If you add up all of rural/undesirable America and divide by number of doctors sure the ratio is unfavorable but if you pick any individual spot and a create a catchment area of say 50 freakin miles (which is less than a 45 minute drive) in all directions you still probably only need 0.5-2 FTE radiation oncologist. Forget Montana or North Dakota, look up how many people live in the entire state of Arkansas, figure out ideal ratio of Rad Oncs to population (even if you ignore trends in hypofractionation), pretend that somehow the state borders are closed so all patients have to be treated by a state trained radiation oncologist, subtract current practicing Rad Onc by that number, and let me know what you get.

Then realize that the U of A program will probably have a resident per year and therefore be pumping out 4-6 Rad Oncs for 25-40 year careers. If their mission is to train Rad Oncs to address the local undersupply then they would just open up and within a few years realize mission accomplished: we are all set for 25-40 years so let’s close down.

I highly doubt that is going to happen (even more so then a sudden wave of migration to Little Rock necessitating an army of freshly graduated Rad inc residents ready will and able to accommodate!

 

[Burt Radnolds]

I’ve lived in rural and “undesirable” places my entire life ... what some of you are missing is the obvious: very few people live here! If you add up all of rural/undesirable America and divide by number of doctors sure the ratio is unfavorable but if you pick any individual spot and a create a catchment area of say 50 freakin miles (which is less than a 45 minute drive) in all directions you still probably only need 0.5-2 FTE radiation oncologist. Forget Montana or North Dakota, look up how many people live in the entire state of Arkansas, figure out ideal ratio of Rad Oncs to population (even if you ignore trends in hypofractionation), pretend that somehow the state borders are closed so all patients have to be treated by a state trained radiation oncologist, subtract current practicing Rad Onc by that number, and let me know what you get.

Then realize that the U of A program will probably have a resident per year and therefore be pumping out 4-6 Rad Oncs for 25-40 year careers. If their mission is to train Rad Oncs to address the local undersupply then they would just open up and within a few years realize mission accomplished: we are all set for 25-40 years so let’s close down.

I highly doubt that is going to happen (even more so then a sudden wave of migration to Little Rock necessitating an army of freshly graduated Rad inc residents ready will and able to accommodate!

This is an excellent point and completely debunks any "noble cause" touted by those expanding.

 

[deleted18755]

This is an excellent point and completely debunks any "noble cause" touted by those expanding.

Furthermore, these rural areas are very, very different. If somebody born and raised in rural Arkansas really wants to stay in his area and goes to U of A for that exact reason but graduates and finds that the previous graduate already took the job (and turns out southeast Arkansas doesn’t need another rad onc anytime soon) he isn’t going to think “well I’m a small town guy but no jobs available in my hometown so I’ll take that job in Minot, North Dakota or Kansas because treating the underserved and living in rural areas is the most important thing to me”. He will just saturate the local market or Little Rock or whatever.

 

[RickyScott]

Furthermore, these rural areas are very, very different. If somebody born and raised in rural Arkansas really wants to stay in his area and goes to U of A for that exact reason but graduates and finds that the previous graduate already took the job (and turns out southeast Arkansas doesn’t need another rad onc anytime soon) he isn’t going to think “well I’m a small town guy but no jobs available in my hometown so I’ll take that job in Minot, North Dakota or Kansas because treating the underserved and living in rural areas is the most important thing to me”. He will just saturate the local market or Little Rock or whatever.

I also grew up in a small town, and would have taken a job there, (where my friends and family still reside) if one were available in that specific location when I graduated. Since no job was available, I chose a suburb of a desirable city at the time. I was in no way inclined to take a job thousands of miles away in a rural location, to which I had no connection, on account of the fact that I grew up in a smaller town. Thats magical thinking.

 

[Ray D. Ayshun]

I also grew up in a small town, and would have taken a job there, (where my friends and family still reside) if one were available in that specific location when I graduated. Since no job was available, I chose a suburb of a desirable city at the time. I was in no way inclined to take a job thousands of miles away in a rural location, to which I had no connection, on account of the fact that I grew up in a smaller town. Thats magical thinking.

Fwiw, this is essentially my point. Using wv as the token example, I'm suggesting that they do not care about the larger market, but rather that all local openings are filled. I don't think this is just a matter of alleviating scut. They are thinking of nearby patients, who are more likely to be served by their graduates. Once the market is saturated, so be it. As was said earlier, it's the tragedy of the commons. who's more blameworthy, the large depts that are saturating their markets, and others, and won't contract, or the smaller ones in less desirable locations that are starting up and potentially recruiting local people? This thread seems to blame all programs that are new or getting bigger. I'm suggesting there are programs that are already too big, and should be shouldering more blame.

Btw, there are 3000000 people in Arkansas and no program til now. They're considering their own state, which seems fair.

 

[deleted18755]

Fwiw, this is essentially my point. Using wv as the token example, I'm suggesting that they do not care about the larger market, but rather that all local openings are filled. I don't think this is just a matter of alleviating scut. They are thinking of nearby patients, who are more likely to be served by their graduates. Once the market is saturated, so be it. As was said earlier, it's the tragedy of the commons. who's more blameworthy, the large depts that are saturating their markets, and others, and won't contract, or the smaller ones in less desirable locations that are starting up and potentially recruiting local people? This thread seems to blame all programs that are new or getting bigger. I'm suggesting there are programs that are already too big, and s

Btw, there are 3000000 people in Arkansas and no program til now. They're considering their own state, which seems fair.

I agree with basically everything in the first paragraph.

I’m honestly not sure: anybody have a fair way to estimate how many radiation oncologists per population results in minimum, ideal, and over-saturation? Sure there are 3 million people in Arkansas for example but it’s not like the entire population is dying because of a lack of access to care. I assume it’s the same as the rest of the country: larger population centers are saturated while “extra” rural Arkansas has relatively few providers. My main point is a single radiation oncologist can flip a large area from underserved to fully staffed for the next 40 years (my area was grossly underserved for years, I came along and boom unless my colleugue or I drop dead or retire very early this entire region is good for a few decades at least). This isn’t primary care or something super specialized like pediatric neurosurgery ... it only takes 1-2 radiation oncologists to provide access to all radiation oncology patients or even oversarurate a very large region and even population but once a residency spot is created and the need is quickly filled the over supply will last decades with one trick ponies. I think both groups (new programs and expansions) are to blame but don’t think new rural programs are less guilty since it’s obvious their goal of opening to fill local access issues isn’t genuine. I honestly can’t believe medical students would sign up for a new program with no reputation, network, etc to help their graduates find employement but students are free to make their own decisions.

 

[Ray D. Ayshun]

I agree with basically everything in the first paragraph.

I’m honestly not sure: anybody have a fair way to estimate how many radiation oncologists per population results in minimum, ideal, and over-saturation? Sure there are 3 million people in Arkansas for example but it’s not like the entire population is dying because of a lack of access to care. I assume it’s the same as the rest of the country: larger population centers are saturated while “extra” rural Arkansas has relatively few providers. My main point is a single radiation oncologist can flip a large area from underserved to fully staffed for the next 40 years (my area was grossly underserved for years, I came along and boom unless my colleugue or I drop dead or retire very early this entire region is good for a few decades at least). This isn’t primary care or something super specialized like pediatric neurosurgery ... it only takes 1-2 radiation oncologists to provide access to all radiation oncology patients or even oversarurate a very large region and even population but once a residency spot is created and the need is quickly filled the over supply will last decades with one trick ponies. I think both groups (new programs and expansions) are to blame but don’t think new rural programs are less guilty since it’s obvious their goal of opening to fill local access issues isn’t genuine. I honestly can’t believe medical students would sign up for a new program with no reputation, network, etc to help their graduates find employement but students are free to make their own decisions.

I agree with this as well. Obviously, I don't know their true motivates. If I think about the bigger picture, and pretend that all programs are new, it's less absurd to think that ark should have one spot than Harvard 7, or 6, or 5. Their im residency isn't 7x as bag as all of Arkansas.

 

[RickyScott]

Fwiw, this is essentially my point. Using wv as the token example, I'm suggesting that they do not care about the larger market, but rather that all local openings are filled. I don't think this is just a matter of alleviating scut. They are thinking of nearby patients, who are more likely to be served by their graduates. Once the market is saturated, so be it. As was said earlier, it's the tragedy of the commons. who's more blameworthy, the large depts that are saturating their markets, and others, and won't contract, or the smaller ones in less desirable locations that are starting up and potentially recruiting local people? This thread seems to blame all programs that are new or getting bigger. I'm suggesting there are programs that are already too big, and should be shouldering more blame.

Btw, there are 3000000 people in Arkansas and no program til now. They're considering their own state, which seems fair.

I dont think small departments are any less to blame than large departments, but how can a program possibly care about the welfare of residents if they are opening during this type of glut. They certainly don't have the residents' interest at heart, so why would a medstudent want to enroll in such a program, when they are basically guaranteed a spot at an existing program. It is much easier to target these programs to make a statement, and hopefully large programs will get the message. As has been mentioned this is a "tragedy of the commons," by the greedy and self-interested and without any type of pushback, it will only get worse. Yes, it sounds distasteful and unAmerican to target programs, but give it some thought as a valid consideration.

States are artificial boundaries. When I was in training,NJ, the most population dense state didnt have a program, and I can tell you there were virtually no jobs there, and jobs would be hard to come by wether they have a program or not. I count at least 15 radoncs in little rock alone (population 200,000), and dont see any evidence that arkansas is underserved.

Lastly, a lot of new programs are opening in impacted areas, Drexel, FIU/MIami, Penn state?

 

[KHE88]

Furthermore, these rural areas are very, very different. If somebody born and raised in rural Arkansas really wants to stay in his area and goes to U of A for that exact reason but graduates and finds that the previous graduate already took the job (and turns out southeast Arkansas doesn’t need another rad onc anytime soon) he isn’t going to think “well I’m a small town guy but no jobs available in my hometown so I’ll take that job in Minot, North Dakota or Kansas because treating the underserved and living in rural areas is the most important thing to me”. He will just saturate the local market or Little Rock or whatever.

I also grew up in a small town, and would have taken a job there, (where my friends and family still reside) if one were available in that specific location when I graduated. Since no job was available, I chose a suburb of a desirable city at the time. I was in no way inclined to take a job thousands of miles away in a rural location, to which I had no connection, on account of the fact that I grew up in a smaller town. Thats magical thinking.

N=1, but I did exactly this. Wanted a small town job. Wasn't one near where I grew up and did residency, so I took one far away. I'm not saying everyone is like me, but I also don't believe I'm the only one, and I think there is some merit to training more rad oncs in the country's interior. The bigger problem is that we are also training more in the big cities on the coasts as well.

This idea that you will refuse to interview someone from a new midwestern program is ridiculous. If the candidate was otherwise a perfect fit, you wouldn't hire him because of where he matched? Really? How is that his or her fault? You want to do this to make a statement? Come on. You'd rather hire someone who only ranked the big names and then put diagnostic radiology as a backup rather than somebody who wanted to be a rad onc so bad he'd go anywhere and ranked everything? That's a childish statement that accomplishes nothing. If anything, the fault is on the big name coastal programs expanding to fill up satellites with residents and dump them out in already oversaturated markets. I fault these guys way, way more than places like Arkansas or WVU trying to fill a need in their rural areas.

From applicants coming in to interview this year, I have already noticed a self-selection of more midwestern applicants and people who grew up on farms, first generation college, etc. The wealthy prep schooled ivy league coastal elites appear to already be moving on to other lifestyle specialties that will better place them in NYC and SF. I'm not sure this is necessarily a bad thing, although I am admittedly selfishly somewhat worried that there one day may be competition for my currently "undesirable" job.

 

[medgator]

.

This idea that you will refuse to interview someone from a new midwestern program is ridiculous. If the candidate was otherwise a perfect fit, you wouldn't hire him because of where he matched? Really? How is that his or her fault? You want to do this to make a statement?.

With the coming glut of residents looking for jobs soon, it'll be an easy way to cull the herd of applications. No different than nuking applications with low board scores, DO students etc during a competitive residency application process.

Getting a decent ro job in 2020+ will be like getting into RO residency from the late 90s through 2010.

 

[RickyScott]

This idea that you will refuse to interview someone from a new midwestern program is ridiculous. If the candidate was otherwise a perfect fit, you wouldn't hire him because of where he matched? Really? How is that his or her fault? You want to do this to make a statement? Come on. You'd rather hire someone who only ranked the big names and then put diagnostic radiology as a backup rather than somebody who wanted to be a rad onc so bad he'd go anywhere and ranked everything? That's a childish statement that accomplishes nothing. If anything, the fault is on the big name coastal programs expanding to fill up satellites with residents and dump them out in already oversaturated markets. I fault these guys way, way more than places like Arkansas or WVU trying to fill a need in their rural areas.

Again, presently there are more than enough spots for all US applicants to match without applying to the new programs. Many of these programs like FIU/MIAMI LIJ/NYC, DREXEL/philadelphia, PENN STATE, Cooper/southern NJ are near/in major cities with very few jobs.. Arkansas and WVU are not providing radoncs for their local market which are already full, or will be within 1-2 classes, or could easily be served by other programs within a two hour driving distance. A new program cant possibly value the welfare of residents (let alone their education) if they are opening during such saturation. Why would a US MD attend, when they are virtually guaranteed to match at an existing program? We are already not filling the match.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

This will be the first year in some time where multiple FMGs, Caribbean grads, DOs match rad onc. The programs will fill.

 

[deleted950463]

This will be the first year in some time where multiple FMGs, Caribbean grads, DOs match rad onc. The programs will fill.

What’s wrong with that? Why are DOs being put in the same sentence as FMGs and caribean grads? We are American graduates.

 

[medgator]

What’s wrong with that? Why are DOs being put in the same sentence as FMGs and caribean grads? We are American graduates.

It is what it is. Anti DO bias has long existed in competitive MD residency selection and it still persists to this day, whether that's right or wrong. Same thing with anti FMG/Caribbean grads. Where did AMG undergrads go when their GPA and /or mcat scores weren't up to snuff for a US allopathic program?? So it's not like it is totally arbitrary.

No different than with board score cutoffs to interview. Arbitrary to some degree, but it is what it is.

In terms of the DO issue none of that should really be news to anyone who went DO VS MD if they did their research into competitive allo residency specialties

 

[thecarbonionangle]

A discussion about MD and DO would never have appeared on this forum 5 years ago. This is how much the specialty has deteriorated. I don't know why a competitive allopathic american graduate would still choose rad onc anymore. I feel like I bought high and am selling low now. At least the med students now have ample warning.

You’re in the new path.

 

[deleted950463]

A discussion about MD and DO would never have appeared on this forum 5 years ago. This is how much the specialty has deteriorated. I don't know why a competitive allopathic american graduate would still choose rad onc anymore. I feel like I bought high and am selling low now. At least the med students now have ample warning.

Boo hoo, I am sorry for the lowly DO coresidents offending your delicate sensibilities.

Isn’t Wallner a DO?

 

[fiji128]

Since 2010 this is what I come up with for new programs, list may not be complete. There are probably about 4 or more places that I've heard about that are or thinking about applying to the RRC to open new programs. I would guess these programs are/will be graduating 12 to 14 new rad oncs per year with the expansion of pre 2010 programs accounting for a far greater number of new rad oncs by comparison.

2010 - University of Mississippi, Jackson MS
2010 - University of Nebraska, Omaha ME
2011 - Hofstra/Northwell, New Hyde Park NY
2011 - Texas A and M, Temple TX
2013 - Cedars-Sinai Medical Center, Los Angeles CA
2013 - Mayo Clinic, Phoenix AZ
2013 - Medical College of Georgia, Augusta GA
2015 - University of Tennessee, Germantown TN
2016 - Stony Brook, Stony Brook NY
2016 - West Virginia University, Morgantown WV
2017 - University of Arkansas, Little Rock AR
2018 - Dartmouth, Lebanon NH

 

[radiaterMike]

What’s wrong with that? Why are DOs being put in the same sentence as FMGs and caribean grads? We are American graduates.

I agree with medgator - it is what it is. It is interesting that you are offended by being lumped with "FMGs and caribean grads" so clearly you have biases as well.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

Since 2010 this is what I come up with for new programs, list may not be complete. There are probably about 4 or more places that I've heard about that are or thinking about applying to the RRC to open new programs. I would guess these programs are/will be graduating 12 to 14 new rad oncs per year with the expansion of pre 2010 programs accounting for a far greater number of new rad oncs by comparison.

2010 - University of Mississippi, Jackson MS
2010 - University of Nebraska, Omaha ME
2011 - Hofstra/Northwell, New Hyde Park NY
2011 - Texas A and M, Temple TX
2013 - Cedars-Sinai Medical Center, Los Angeles CA
2013 - Mayo Clinic, Phoenix AZ
2013 - Medical College of Georgia, Augusta GA
2015 - University of Tennessee, Germantown TN
2016 - Stony Brook, Stony Brook NY
2016 - West Virginia University, Morgantown WV
2017 - University of Arkansas, Little Rock AR
2018 - Dartmouth, Lebanon NH

Drexel was shut down around 2014/2015 and reopened 2015 with most of the training in a pp in delaware and still some presence in Philly. I believe they have since also grown. No matter what current expansions cannot continue and all these new programs opening up are going to make things worst. Im hearing rumors of a new residency soon in NJ and one in Penn State. Did Darthmouth really need a program? How much longer can this continue?

 

[thecarbonionangle]

Boo hoo, I am sorry for the lowly DO coresidents offending your delicate sensibilities.

Isn’t Wallner a DO?

He got in during a very different time in our field. Appears from his profile he did a fellowship in xrt at Drexel after a residency in rads. Hes part of a generation who got in when the field was mostly FMGs and DOs. Baby boomers are the most selfish generation. They have beem raking it in for decades!!!

 

[thecarbonionangle]

I can certainly pledge never to hire a graduate from one of these programs or west virginia, arkansas, penn state.

I understand the concerns people have raised about maybe “hurting” the wrong people but im with you on this. With so many programs out there you have plenty of graduating residents from more established track records. The new graduates from these places will be able to get jobs hopefully, but probably not in any good areas. The competition for “good jobs” is only going to intensify. Anybody going to these programs to interview consider it deeply if its a risk you want to take. You have to really want to do rad onc.

 

[RickyScott]

I understand the concerns people have raised about maybe “hurting” the wrong people but im with you on this. With so many programs out there you have plenty of graduating residents from more established track records. The new graduates from these places will be able to get jobs hopefully, but probably not in any good areas. The competition for “good jobs” is only going to intensify. Anybody going to these programs to interview consider it deeply if its a risk you want to take. You have to really want to do rad onc.

This field is becoming like pathology and we will ultimately loose out on talented applicants. Existing programs are also terrible offenders. In Florida, Moffitt, and the University of Miami are adding residency slots and FIU is trying to open another program in Miami even though there are no jobs there!. Totally out of control. In terms of new programs, there are enough positions in existing residencies (which unfortunately are also expanding) for all US applicants, and more, so it is simply not good judgement to attend a brand new program. Why not boycott them when it comes to jobs.

When the pain from this academic greed hits a critical mass, there will hopefully be enough support from disenchanted radoncs to campaign against reimbursement for protons and the exorbitant costs of academic centers that are sustaining these "radiation-industrio-medical complexes" with their residencies and satellites.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

Isnt Moffit a relatively new residency? UTSW as well, both have been expanded. Since Pollack got to Miami program has been expanding as well. it is simply unsustainable.

Whats next? Brown opens up a residency?
Whats going on is places are figuring out its a lot cheaper to have residents. This wont stop until something is done.

 

[deleted950463]

This field is becoming like pathology and we will ultimately loose out on talented applicants.

It’s such a shame to “loose” out talented applicants like you and have more DOs and FMGs.

 

[medgator]

It’s such a shame to “loose” out talented applicants like you and have more DOs and FMGs.

He's already an attending out in practice for several years... But hey why not start burning bridges now before you even match to a specialty about to start a long term job market crisis...

 

[lemmiwiinks]

It’s such a shame to “loose” out talented applicants like you and have more DOs and FMGs.

You really are not representing your degree very well. It sounds like there are enough residency positions for all applicants, MDs and DOs, and more residencies are planning on opening. Both MDs or D0s with options, may decide to look elsewhere because of the whats going on with the job market. I dont see why now a DO would think, this job market sucks, so I am going to jump on this specialty? kind of insulting to DOs

 

[Lamount]

Long time lurker, rare commenter.

This forum is at its best when there is a discussion between peers regarding the best way to approach a difficult case. All readers can benefit from such a dialogue. Conversations such as this are a low point. If you are regretting your decision to become a rad onc because you are worried that the match is getting too easy, or you think just having an MD makes you a better doctor than DOs or FMGs, I sincerely hope that I never have to work with you. We are all oncologists, so let's talk about treating cancer.

 

[deleted18755]

Long time lurker, rare commenter.

This forum is at its best when there is a discussion between peers regarding the best way to approach a difficult case. All readers can benefit from such a dialogue. Conversations such as this are a low point. If you are regretting your decision to become a rad onc because you are worried that the match is getting too easy, or you think just having an MD makes you a better doctor than DOs or FMGs, I sincerely hope that I never have to work with you. We are all oncologists, so let's talk about treating cancer.

I agree but this actually brings up a good point . . . I honestly don't know but I'm pretty sure the majority of people who post (or definitely view?) this forum are not oncologists but students and maybe residents so therefore the emphasis can't be on talking about treating cancer or discussion among peers about difficult cases. I've been on this forum for something like 15 years since it was actually mostly medical students but I wonder if it's time to create a sub-forum or section or whatever dedicated to discussion of interesting cases/strictly clinical situations geared more towards practicing radiation oncologists (that everybody can view of course) and other sections for matching, jobs, or just "everything else"