Little supervision in Residency Program

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koikisi

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I feel like I am not getting much supervision in my program from my diminishing faculty. First off, we have so many faculty leaving. I see 13 patients in my care, and the attending comes in rounds for 30min-hour and tells me to increase this, decrease this etc. I just put in the orders do my MSE, and write my note for him to sign.

This happens everyday. I just wonder if this is the way I'm suppose to learn? or what? It seems like he never really wants to see me do initial evals
 
Sadly no one wants to spend time watching you do anything.

It's all about doing the minimum possible.

You may be stuck trying to reverse engineer the decisions he makes.

Ask why he wants whatevs upped or downed is my advice. But back off if it seems like asking (always clarify it's only because you are trying to learn, not because you disagree) is pissing him off

Table rounding 10 medicine patients in an hour doesn't sound crazy where I'm at, but plenty of teaching still going on even at that pace.

Seems to me that's enough time but I'm not in psych or subject to your attending's graces
 
Attending laziness is often overcome by a little trainee persistence and enthusiasm. The worst case scenario for a training director is when both student and teacher collude in complete apathy by not wanting to teach or learn. If you come forward and ask for clarification on decisions with the expressed motivation that you wish to learn, an instructor would be very hard pressed to comply or end up looking like a complete jerk. Of course, this presumes that the instructor has something of value to teach. That would be a whole other worst case scenario.
All teachers have strengths and weaknesses, look for what they have to offer. Exposing weaknesses gets both of you no where.
 
Alternatively, find another attending to curbside.

Do you have other supervisors you have to see weekly? My program required that for all 4 years.
 
Alternatively, find another attending to curbside.

Do you have other supervisors you have to see weekly? My program required that for all 4 years.

No there are no supervisors or advisors assigned to us.

I would love to be persistent if I wasn't so inundated with work all the time.
 
Faculty leaving, poor training, lack of supervision, and other posts you made about personal attacks paint a picture of a pretty toxic environment. I would keep my head down and focus on what you need to do until you either transfer or graduate. Read some of the recommended texts on psychiatry and find a nurse or psychologist or social worker or maybe even the friggin' janitor at the site to talk to so that you can process the interpersonal and case conceptualizing that needs to be done as well.
 
You also have this forum to ask questions, coupled with the reading you're doing. And be sure to find a work environment where you can learn from others and that will foster a mentorship during the first few years when you do complete residency training.
 
I'd speak to the residency program director. If not better, transfer out.
 
I'm actively looking for ways to leave this malignant toxic environment. I have had such a bizarre and unhappy experience at my program thus far.

I am not surprised that they have such a hard time keeping faculty. The lack of supervision is astonishing. I think I will just have to ask my questions on this forum and google them during the limited free time I'm getting these days. I don't want to be completely zombied and absentminded when I put in orders for patients!
 
I would really appreciate it if you can PM me where you are.
 
I'm actively looking for ways to leave this malignant toxic environment. I have had such a bizarre and unhappy experience at my program thus far.

I am not surprised that they have such a hard time keeping faculty. The lack of supervision is astonishing. I think I will just have to ask my questions on this forum and google them during the limited free time I'm getting these days. I don't want to be completely zombied and absentminded when I put in orders for patients!

Just after I posted this, we were informed today that another faculty member is leaving to "explore other opportunities." haha how bizarre
 
I thought as an intern 8 or 10 is the maximum patients u handle. I did more occasionaly when we capped. I never asked to unload them, but luckily my attendings or senior would at least offer.

Intern year will be over before u know it and learning is light at alot of programs
 
I thought as an intern 8 or 10 is the maximum patients u handle. I did more occasionaly when we capped. I never asked to unload them, but luckily my attendings or senior would at least offer.

Intern year will be over before u know it and learning is light at alot of programs

There is no "cap" at my program. I am not exaggerating when I say that sometimes I cannot even use the restroom because I'm constantly trying to take care of consults and ER admits on call days. It's all because PGY3 and PGY4's refuse to help balance the call schedule. I have done 13-14 patients progress notes, 4 new patients H&P's and 4 discharge summaries yesterday. Making a total of 18 that I have today.
 
There is no "cap" at my program. I am not exaggerating when I say that sometimes I cannot even use the restroom because I'm constantly trying to take care of consults and ER admits on call days. It's all because PGY3 and PGY4's refuse to help balance the call schedule. I have done 13-14 patients progress notes, 4 new patients H&P's and 4 discharge summaries yesterday. Making a total of 18 that I have today.

With that in mind, maybe you do want to stick around because you'll get to take of advantage of kicking work downhill when you're a pgy3 and pgy4. Unfortunately that's the result of an inhumane work environment for lower level residents.

One thing I do want to say, though, is be careful not to identify yourself in any way here, especially as you're thinking about transferring. It's a small field, and a lot more people are lurking on SDN than you might think.
 
There are like 28000 psychiatrists in the country....so that doesn't seem that small to me.

I think this 'small field' mindset applies to people working in certain areas or settings. People in research and some(certainly not all) people in academics. People working the grind in the communities day after day they are in really don't experience this....we know a lot of the other community psychiatrists within a hundred miles of us or so, but that's about it.

Another thing to consider is who the heck really cares if some other psychiatrist on the internet in another state doesn't like you? I certainly don't have room on my list of give a damns for that.
 
With that in mind, maybe you do want to stick around because you'll get to take of advantage of kicking work downhill when you're a pgy3 and pgy4. Unfortunately that's the result of an inhumane work environment for lower level residents.

One thing I do want to say, though, is be careful not to identify yourself in any way here, especially as you're thinking about transferring. It's a small field, and a lot more people are lurking on SDN than you might think.

I know that's why I have not responded to people who have requested that I give them the name of my program. I will just say this, that one should pay special attention to the questions that people ask on interview day. Also, generally speaking, FMG-heavy programs with residents from India and Pakistan have been known to employ these types of harsh working environment (based on my observation).

I would love to try and stick it out until PGY 3 and PGY4, but honestly, even trying to make it through intern year has been challenging. We are expected to teach ourselves and see these huge patient load on our own. We have to read on our own, do everything on our own. The didactics are atrocious and it's evident that the PD does not care about teaching during his supervision with us. He is too preoccupied with other things. I feel guilty about not teaching the medical students when I am trying to figure out what the hell I'm doing. It's been excruciatingly frustrating.

I have contemplated filling out another ERAS application, but realistically, I won't get time to attend interviews. I have reconciled that this is probably going to be something I'm going to be looking for outside of the match.

Regarding transferring due to be closer to Family, I don't know if that will fly, I am not too close with my family (they are scattered over the country in competitive areas SF, Dallas, Houston and Portland) and I knew the location when I moved. Plus, my boyfriend and I are practically engaged and he lives with me right now (he found a job nearby). But its worth a shot. I just really feel like I'm going to be so behind (knowledge wise) in this program after looking at the PGY2's and their abilities with medication management, that I will struggle greatly if I transfer to a program as a PGY2.

Thank you guys for any guidance.
 
There are like 28000 psychiatrists in the country....so that doesn't seem that small to me.

I think this 'small field' mindset applies to people working in certain areas or settings. People in research and some(certainly not all) people in academics. People working the grind in the communities day after day they are in really don't experience this....we know a lot of the other community psychiatrists within a hundred miles of us or so, but that's about it.

Another thing to consider is who the heck really cares if some other psychiatrist on the internet in another state doesn't like you? I certainly don't have room on my list of give a damns for that.

So I've been burned, so I'm just throwing that out there. I think for already practicing psychiatrists, it's probably less of a deal, but the residency world is smaller. It's possible the op's program director is reading this board and can figure out who he/she is. DO in an IMG heavy program presumably in a big city.
 
Koik- chill out and stop worrying; it's going to be fine. You are in a program now that will get you board eligible and then board certified. Will you maybe have to read a bit more and put a little more outside effort in to be practicing at the same level as those who went to programs with a better environment? Maybe. But the idea that you should transfer and worse yet reapply is lunacy. The reapplying part in particular is a particularly disastrous idea.

Do you know how much less a morehouse or eastern Carolina trained psychiatrist gets from blue cross for a 90792 vs a duke trained psychiatrist? Zero dollars and zero cents.

The vast majority of your patients DO NOT CARE where you went to med school or trained. The vast majority of non-academic employers don't care either, especially once you get a little real world experience. And guess what? If you do lose a patient because you went to east carol a instead of duke, that's a GOOD THING because you didn't want that pt anyways.

Just chill.....it's going to be fine. Nobody really cares.
 
I have contemplated filling out another ERAS application, but realistically, I won't get time to attend interviews. I have reconciled that this is probably going to be something I'm going to be looking for outside of the match.
erm... PGY-2 spots are typically outside the match.
 
So I've been burned, so I'm just throwing that out there. I think for already practicing psychiatrists, it's probably less of a deal, but the residency world is smaller. It's possible the op's program director is reading this board and can figure out who he/she is. DO in an IMG heavy program presumably in a big city.

Well the pd-resident relationship is a bit unique.....I'll grant you that. But even if the pd is reading the board, it's still a big leap to believe they would face some repercussions from it. If my pd had read the board when I was a resident I would have been ok with that. They may not have agreed with everything I said, but I wouldn't have been paranoid they would target me or anything because we have differing views about certain things.

Hell maybe the ops pd reading this thread would be a GOOD thing as it would cause them to say "huh, maybe I should make a few changes"

But in general I think people are way too cautious about this sort of thing. Not in this forum so much but all these forums. I've seen whole threads where people go out of their way to make sure they don't 'out' themselves. And in my mind I'm thinking wtf do they care if they do?

Nobody here signs my checks. Nobody here controls my license. Nobody here supplies a reference for me. Nobody here can limit my access to patients. And I'm not unique there- I would guess that 90 percent of sdn posters fall in that category. And of the few that don't, 99 percent of them aren't saying or doing anything anyone cares about(in a concerning way) anyways.
 
Vistaril, with all due respect, if you had to put up with the mental anguish I endure when I am around my co-residents and some of the downright obnoxious nurses and faculty with their criticism, derogatory remarks about my ethnic background, and comments about my attire, I am sure you would be looking at ways to transfer as well.

It may make be board eligible, eventhough I'll probably bomb the Prite since i have no time to study for it. But I don't think I can put up with this after this year. I desperately want to transfer to a place where I can be treated like a human being and given a good education.
 
If my pd had read the board when I was a resident I would have been ok with that. They may not have agreed with everything I said, but I wouldn't have been paranoid they would target me or anything because we have differing views about certain things.
This sounds weird coming from the guy who started off in this forum lying about where he was doing his residency. (I'm not remembering that wrong, am I?)
 
Vistaril, with all due respect, if you had to put up with the mental anguish I endure when I am around my co-residents and some of the downright obnoxious nurses and faculty with their criticism, derogatory remarks about my ethnic background, and comments about my attire, I am sure you would be looking at ways to transfer as well.

It may make be board eligible, eventhough I'll probably bomb the Prite since i have no time to study for it. But I don't think I can put up with this after this year. I desperately want to transfer to a place where I can be treated like a human being and given a good education.

You've been an inter for three months... Why even worry about the prite
 
This sounds weird coming from the guy who started off in this forum lying about where he was doing his residency. (I'm not remembering that wrong, am I?)

Not weird at all.....it's also pretty easy to find out where I live, for example, but if you ask me for my address I'm not going to give it to you. I may even tell you I live in an adjacent city. Otoh, if someone chooses to find out where I live I'm not exactly concerned/worried about that either.

Obviously, people shouldn't say things in Internet forums like this that could be very damaging to them. If someone was a active and passionate member of the kkk, for example, I'd say keep that under wraps. But 99.9 percent of the other stuff is just silly and nobody cares.
 
Vistaril, with all due respect, if you had to put up with the mental anguish I endure when I am around my co-residents and some of the downright obnoxious nurses and faculty with their criticism, derogatory remarks about my ethnic background, and comments about my attire, I am sure you would be looking at ways to transfer as well.

It may make be board eligible, eventhough I'll probably bomb the Prite since i have no time to study for it. But I don't think I can put up with this after this year. I desperately want to transfer to a place where I can be treated like a human being and given a good education.


'Even though I'll probably bomb the prite'? Is this for real? Who cares.....at ANY PG LEVEL, you should spent exactly zero time worrying how you will do on the prite.
 
Our department actually cares about how well we do on our Prite. We have to show improvement over 4 years.
 
Our department actually cares about how well we do on our Prite. We have to show improvement over 4 years.

or what? they don't give you a sticker? (and yes I know some programs reportedly restrict moonlighting to those under a certain percentage)

that's not to say residents shouldn't have goals during training that they work for. In no particular order I would say they should be:

-keep your nose clean
-start developing your own style with patients that works best for you
-build a minimum level of core knowledge needed to practice safely
-improve efficiency yearly

if you do those four things, I think you have a great start to your career. Additionally, if you do those four things(well really if you just do 1 and 3) you will be fine with your residency as well.
 
Vistaril, with all due respect, if you had to put up with the mental anguish I endure when I am around my co-residents and some of the downright obnoxious nurses and faculty with their criticism, derogatory remarks about my ethnic background, and comments about my attire, I am sure you would be looking at ways to transfer as well.

It may make be board eligible, eventhough I'll probably bomb the Prite since i have no time to study for it. But I don't think I can put up with this after this year. I desperately want to transfer to a place where I can be treated like a human being and given a good education.
It may make sense for you to look for a transfer and it could be a pretty toxic environment, but the more you make the case for how bad it is and how you don't know if you can put up with it, the more I wonder if learning to handle the situation might make you a better doctor. It might be time to start kicking some a$$ and stop taking their crud. Again I'm not there but I know part of my own training and professional development was learning how to deal with sick systems and overcoming my own need to have people like me.
 
Well the pd-resident relationship is a bit unique.....I'll grant you that. But even if the pd is reading the board, it's still a big leap to believe they would face some repercussions from it. If my pd had read the board when I was a resident I would have been ok with that. They may not have agreed with everything I said, but I wouldn't have been paranoid they would target me or anything because we have differing views about certain things.

And to clarify as I really didn't face any tangible consequences, but there might be some people who like me less than they otherwise would. Working in a relatively small community, this could have some likely admittedly minor consequences. Had I trained a malignant place, the consequences could have been bigger, though.
 
It may make sense for you to look for a transfer and it could be a pretty toxic environment, but the more you make the case for how bad it is and how you don't know if you can put up with it, the more I wonder if learning to handle the situation might make you a better doctor. It might be time to start kicking some a$$ and stop taking their crud. Again I'm not there but I know part of my own training and professional development was learning how to deal with sick systems and overcoming my own need to have people like me.

There is some truth in this. Having been in enough systems now (and I'm still early in my career), they all have issues. Figuring out how to be reasonably psychologically healthy in those systems and be a good provider for your patients is a good skill.

There's also probably some distorting that's happening, which is an entirely natural part of being a stressed out intern in a new city and new work environment. It sounds like the op is objectively at a place with lots of problems, but I think I had ideas about my program as an intern that really weren't true. I initially idealized my program (and psychiatry) and then felt very disappointed and angry when I realized it like really all places had a decent amount of flaws. I've mainly moved back toward acceptance. When learning about Klein, I thought her ideas really captured the resident experience, moving from paranoid schizoid to the depressive position, which I think I got to mainly around 3rd year. Well, maybe I'm still in the paranoid schizoid position with the PD who quit my intern year -- still don't like that guy.
 
If you are stuck there until next July, look at it as an opportunity to grow. You will see many types of illnesses and presentations, learn to eval, treat and get the paperwork done much faster the more you practice. I know you feel terribly overworked, but it will get better. After my intern year, I chose to keep working at the same pace (which was about like yours but with better supervision) and it allowed me to pull quite a bit ahead of those who did the minimum.
 
I feel this place definitely meets the criteria for being malignant. I feel like our didactics are a complete waste of time. I just want to get out of here soon.
 
It seems the ability to come across as pompous and arrogant has overrun posts that actually distract from the OPs dilemma.

To the OP - what is important is the way you happen to be feeling. Unfortunately, the support this forum can provide is superficial at best. Perhaps switching you find the most amazing program, or you find one worse then you are in. Perhaps there is something about these situations you can reflect on, if relevant (to what extent do your own actions/inactions play a role, are there alternate things you can try to help cope with these issues, etc). In the end, only you know what is best for you. If you wish to transfer, the steps in that process are easily accessible. I wish you good luck and a level head in these difficult times you're experiencing.
 
It seems the ability to come across as pompous and arrogant has overrun posts that actually distract from the OPs dilemma.

To the OP - what is important is the way you happen to be feeling. Unfortunately, the support this forum can provide is superficial at best. Perhaps switching you find the most amazing program, or you find one worse then you are in. Perhaps there is something about these situations you can reflect on, if relevant (to what extent do your own actions/inactions play a role, are there alternate things you can try to help cope with these issues, etc). In the end, only you know what is best for you. If you wish to transfer, the steps in that process are easily accessible. I wish you good luck and a level head in these difficult times you're experiencing.

Thank you. I appreciate your words and i hope I can find a way to achieve peace with my circumstances.
 
First off, we have so many faculty leaving. I see 13 patients in my care, and the attending comes in rounds for 30min-hour and tells me to increase this, decrease this etc. I just put in the orders do my MSE, and write my note for him to sign.

Attendings leaving the program in mass numbers over the course of a few years is a big sign something is wrong in the department.

I've said this several times on this forum. I've seen several programs keep terrible attendings that they know aren't competent either because the people running the program don't care/know or they can't replace the existing psychiatrist and would had there been more around.

The shortage of psychiatrists almost across the nation (it isn't happening in specific localities such as NYC and Washington, D.C.) has created the benefit of making us in demand, but created the problem of several departments tolerating bad psychiatrists.

My PGY-IV year, the program was split between two hospitals. One of the psychiatrists at the hospital where I was at was literally only coming in, signing off on the notes and spending 10 minutes (even less) with the resident and then walking out. It turned out he was double-dipping-that is working at one place, earning a salary, when he was supposed to be at the other place and not telling both places what was going on. The head of the department at this hospital was forced to become the 2nd in command of the entire hospital because the previous one left under bad circumstances, so she could barely manage the psych department. The double-dipping psychiatrist knew this and took advantage of this knowing she wouldn't be able to keep tabs on him.

The GME and head of the residency program was in the other hospital 1 hour away. I told her what was going on and her reaction was furious-not at him but at me for even bringing it up. Meanwhile very bad things were going on such as PGY-1s literally having only a few weeks experience not knowing what to do, the double-dipping attending wasn't there, and when he was beeped he wouldn't call back for about an hour. There were two attendings on that unit and the other one that was doing his job knew what was going on and addressed it but wouldn't (understandably) take the mantle and do the other doc's job in addition to his own.

So I talked to the head of the department in the hospital where the double-dipper was located (who was not the head of the academic dept. That head was in the other hospital and had a rep for just shoo-shooing things). She told me she completely agreed with me but she couldn't fix the problem because she was literally doing 2 high stress jobs at once-head of the psych dept and #2 doctor in the hospital-both jobs that are 80 hours a week and had to put her focus on the latter job. She didn't tell me this herself but her secretary told me she had almost no confidence in the new PD.

After seeing that the program director wasn't going to do anything about this, (in fact she started bad-mouthing me behind my back because I brought this up), I realized this was a situation I would not be able to fix. I was a resident, yes a chief resident, but if the PD isn't going to do anything and patients were experiencing bad outcomes because of this, I decided I had to either shut up and just stick my year out or go to the GME. I decided to go to the GME and tell what was going on because I would've been violating my Hippocratic Oath otherwise. I knew that I could experience severe fallout from my PD.

The GME looked into it and everything I told them they found out by their own investigation was true. They were able to prove that doc was double-dipping. My PD's reaction to the GME was all hugs and kisses acting as if she'll do everything they ask. The GME even told me they thought they could tell something was wrong with her because they knew everything I said including her bad-mouthing of me was true. They forced that double-dipping doc to stop. All of this played out over the course of about 6 very uncomfortable months for me.

If you look at my past posts I said a lot of good things about my residency program and they were all true-up until the beginning of my PGY-IV year. By then we got the new PD. BY then I changed my tone to we got problems we're working on but out of a sense of loyalty I didn't outright bash my program.
 
This sounds weird coming from the guy who started off in this forum lying about where he was doing his residency. (I'm not remembering that wrong, am I?)
You're not. And when it was discovered that he in fact did not attend a top NE program as he claimed, he indicated that he had been lying for the sake of anonymity. Sweet irony...
 
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Well the pd-resident relationship is a bit unique.....I'll grant you that. But even if the pd is reading the board, it's still a big leap to believe they would face some repercussions from it. If my pd had read the board when I was a resident I would have been ok with that. They may not have agreed with everything I said, but I wouldn't have been paranoid they would target me or anything because we have differing views about certain things. ....

Yes, I'm sure that the proposal of entertaining residency applicants at a "Gentlemens' Club" to ensure compatibility would have been cheered as a "best practice".
 
Yes, I'm sure that the proposal of entertaining residency applicants at a "Gentlemens' Club" to ensure compatibility would have been cheered as a "best practice".

@OldPsychDoc , these clubs are frequented my highly educated white collar individuals such as physicians, lawyers, and bankers, who all have very fulfilling healthy relationships such that engaging in exploits of the flesh and the lust are completely justified. 😉 There is no harm to mental health occurring in said establishments. Didn't you get the memo?
 
I'm curious as to how it's going for other interns? I think it's a little absurd to have an intern doing all the orders and management without any supervision for most of the day.
 
I'm curious as to how it's going for other interns? I think it's a little absurd to have an intern doing all the orders and management without any supervision for most of the day.
Get used to it. Doesn't get any better.

BTW, it's just busy work to get you comfortable with the role and environment.
 
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