LizzyM score useful for top 20?

[Endoxifen]

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Useful is the LizzyM score for schools in the top 20? I feel like saturation of students with 75+ scores will make it far less effective as a predictor of success.

 

[efle]

It's extremely useful. Having very high numbers is the biggest predictor for getting interviews from many of the Top 20. You are right that it is not rare among the crowd they interview though, you generally need more than stats to be in the minority of interviewees that they admit.

 

[Endoxifen]

It's extremely useful. Having very high numbers is the biggest predictor for getting interviews from many of the Top 20. You are right that it is not rare among the crowd they interview though, you generally need more than stats to be in the minority of interviewees that they admit.

So once you get an interview, is it your interview performance or the volunteering or accolades which really sells you? Surely someone with perfect numbers, charm, but no volunteering would be disqualified at most schools, right?

 

[efle]

So once you get an interview, is it your interview performance or the volunteering or accolades which really sells you? Surely someone with perfect numbers, charm, but no volunteering would be disqualified at most schools, right?

Weighting of various factors post-II is different school by school. It is almost always a "holistic" process but that doesn't quite mean what SDN likes to say, IMO. Someone with an 80+ LizzyM, clinical employment experience, a great interview and a lot of research would likely have success at a few selective schools even with a dearth of volunteering. Similarly, someone may be nervous and stumble or get lost a few times in interview but still get in based on the rest of their app. Hell, you can see in the MSAR that even Top 20s with mandatory research theses will admit a few percent every year that have no prior research experience because they are desirable in other ways.

 

[WedgeDawg]

The LizzyM score tells you whether you're competitive stats wise. It's useful for telling you whether or not you have the stats to apply to top 20s by comparing yourself to the school's medians. If you're more than a couple of points away from the school's LizzyM, you're much less likely to get an interview.

 

[Endoxifen]

So here's an interesting question. Will schools with a 60-70 average select against those with 75+?

 

[partypantss]

So here's an interesting question. Will schools with a 60-70 average select against those with 75+?

Only if the applicant has no convincing reasons for wanting to go there. I think people on SDN tend to dismiss every "average" lizzy-m school that rejects a high stat applicant as yield-protecting. When in reality I don't think it happens THAT often. More likely the applicant just didn't have the right fit due to ECs or something else.

 

[freak7]

So here's an interesting question. Will schools with a 60-70 average select against those with 75+?

For yield protection purposes they might. It depends how likely they'd consider that particular applicant would be to matriculate if granted an acceptance. Why waste the II slot if they'll just go somewhere else?

 

[freak7]

Only if the applicant has no convincing reasons for wanting to go there. I think people on SDN tend to dismiss every "average" lizzy-m school that rejects a high stat applicant as yield-protecting. When in reality I don't think it happens THAT often. More likely the applicant just didn't have the right fit due to ECs or something else.

AH beat me to it.

 

[efle]

I absolutely think yield protection happens. Unless you can pretty clearly tell a school why you'd choose them with substantial reasons (not that you really like XYZ off their website), being several points beyond their 90th percentile starts to make you a likely waste of an interview spot.

 

[kb1900]

I absolutely think yield protection happens. Unless you can pretty clearly tell a school why you'd choose them with substantial reasons (not that you really like XYZ off their website), being several points beyond their 90th percentile starts to make you a likely waste of an interview spot.

There is no question it happens. And it should be completely understandable to an applicant.

 

[Goro]

It's a good rule of thumb to draw up your target list. With a 75, you don't need to apply to NYMC, but Harvard and Yale should be on your list.

Obviously, your app then has to expand from there. ECs get you through the door.

Useful is the LizzyM score for schools in the top 20? I feel like saturation of students with 75+ scores will make it far less effective as a predictor of success.

 

[Goro]

I think "resource protection" is a more accurate term.

For yield protection purposes they might. It depends how likely they'd consider that particular applicant would be to matriculate if granted an acceptance. Why waste the II slot if they'll just go somewhere else?

 

[Endoxifen]

It's a good rule of thumb to draw up your target list. With a 75, you don't need to apply to NYMC, but Harvard and Yale should be on your list.

Obviously, your app then has to expand from there. ECs get you through the door.

I'm sure I know the answer to this, but I decided to go into medicine after my sophomore year. I spent all of my time in the lab, so my non-research ECs will are on the weaker sided (~250 hours clinical, ~130 hours non-clinical, 50 hours shadowing). My research is excellent, but how much do you think my late in the game ECs will hurt my chances? I'm not very picky. I'm sure I'd be happy at any medical school. Thank you very much for your help!

 

[WedgeDawg]

I'm sure I know the answer to this, but I decided to go into medicine after my sophomore year. I spent all of my time in the lab, so my non-research ECs will are on the weaker sided (~250 hours clinical, ~130 hours non-clinical, 50 hours shadowing). My research is excellent, but how much do you think my late in the game ECs will hurt my chances? I'm not very picky. I'm sure I'd be happy at any medical school. Thank you very much for your help!

Present yourself well and you'll be fine.

 

[Endoxifen]

Present yourself well and you'll be fine.

Thank you very much! I appreciate your advice.

Do you think I should be conservative in my school choices because of my weak ECs?

 

[WedgeDawg]

Thank you very much! I appreciate your advice.

Do you think I should be conservative in my school choices because of my weak ECs?

What are your stats, what was your undergrad, and what state are you a resident of?

 

[Endoxifen]

What are your stats, what was your undergrad, and what state are you a resident of?

Residence: Oregon
Undergrad: Main Campus of large state school (top 50)... Honors student
cGPA: 3.98 sGPA:3.99
MCAT: 519
Research: >1500 hours, 2 poster presentations, one departmental presentation, 2 presentations to tumor board, currently working on 4 papers which may be finished before applications (3 clinical:1st author, 1 lab: 3rd author), applying to present at national oncology conference (may or may not happen)
Awards: President's Freshman Award, Dean's list every semester, set to graduate summa cum laude
President and founder of Science Journal Club
Clinical: ~250 hours (ER and clinical simulation center)
Non-clinical: ~130 hours (MOW, tutoring underprivileged students at local HS, clerical work in Department of Interior)
Hobbies: Classical guitar player (13 years), Skiing, science fiction books (don't know if this one really counts)

I don't know if this makes any sort of difference, but after my sophomore I decided I didn't like laboratory work (took me 2 years of serious back and forth to decide). I left my lab and I sought out a doctor at my university's medical school (2 hours away from the main campus) and convinced him to take a chance on me. I am writing all of the SRC and IRB forms, doing the data analysis, and writing the papers. I will also be moving to the medical school next semester to work more closely with my PI. This may be a relatively common and uninteresting story, but if it helps paint a better picture of me, I thought I would tell you.

Thank you again for your advice.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Residence: Oregon
Undergrad: Main Campus of large state school (top 50)... Honors student
cGPA: 3.98 sGPA:3.99
MCAT: 519
Research: >1500 hours, 2 poster presentations, one departmental presentation, 2 presentations to tumor board, currently working on 4 papers which may be finished before applications (3 clinical:1st author, 1 lab: 3rd author), applying to present at national oncology conference (may or may not happen)
Awards: President's Freshman Award, Dean's list every semester, set to graduate summa cum laude
President and founder of Science Journal Club
Clinical: ~250 hours (ER and clinical simulation center)
Non-clinical: ~130 hours (MOW, tutoring underprivileged students at local HS, clerical work in Department of Interior)
Hobbies: Classical guitar player (13 years), Skiing, science fiction books (don't know if this one really counts)

I don't know if this makes any sort of difference, but after my sophomore I decided I didn't like laboratory work (took me 2 years of serious back and forth to decide). I left my lab and I sought out a doctor at my university's medical school (2 hours away from the main campus) and convinced him to take a chance on me. I am writing all of the SRC and IRB forms, doing the data analysis, and writing the papers. I will also be moving to the medical school next semester to work more closely with my PI. This may be a relatively common and uninteresting story, but if it helps paint a better picture of me, I thought I would tell you.

Thank you again for your advice.

Apply to any/all Oregon schools, your undergrad's med school if they have one, all of the top 20 except for schools with regional preference like UCSD and UWash (I know you're right next door, but I don't think they take people from outside of WWAMI), then some mid tiers like rochester, einstein, emory, hofstra, usc-keck, etc. Shouldn't have to apply to more than 25 schools. You'll be fine.

 

[ChordaEpiphany]

Useful is the LizzyM score for schools in the top 20? I feel like saturation of students with 75+ scores will make it far less effective as a predictor of success.

.

 

[Endoxifen]

Apply to any/all Oregon schools, your undergrad's med school if they have one, all of the top 20 except for schools with regional preference like UCSD and UWash (I know you're right next door, but I don't think they take people from outside of WWAMI), then some mid tiers like rochester, einstein, emory, hofstra, usc-keck, etc. Shouldn't have to apply to more than 25 schools. You'll be fine.

Thank you! I realize that I may be being neurotic, but I appreciate you taking the time to message me back.

 

[Endoxifen]

My best advice is to present yourself well and not stress about whether or not you break into that elusive top 20. School name does matter. Big names match big places, and a top 20 vs. a mid-tier school could be the difference between matching and not matching in a specialty if you're borderline. It's still going to be largely up to you to stand out though.

My LM was 78 from top 10 uni in engineering (so I thought the 3.9+ GPA would mean more, it doesn't). Granted I'm MD/PhD, so things are a bit different, but my ECs were generally considered on the weaker side. I had a cool story (well I thought it was cool, evidently not everyone did, 😛), a non-traditional background, the usual showering of academic awards, and some really unique accomplishments, but I lacked the bread and butter (I was weak on clinical experience, volunteering, etc...). Ultimately I applied to 20 schools. It was pretty much 1-20 on USNWR (I had some very bad advising) and then 2 other schools I considered "safeties" (ranked ~30 and ~50, I should not have considered these safeties). I got 3 interviews. 1 was at a top 5 school. You can guess the other two. I ultimately I was waitlisted at the top 5 and accepted at the other two. I matriculated at the top 30 school, and I'm happy with it. I will have to stand out more in my class to get that "top" residency. I have to fight a little harder for quality research opportunities. However, that's life. I now know without a shadow of a doubt that I'm *not* the most qualified person in my school, and I'm sure there are *many* students at top 10 schools I would blow out of the water, so it goes both ways.

Just remember, once you're done with it all and working, it won't seem important. It's far more important to do well in medical school and match the specialty you want. Even HMS can't help you if you don't pass step 1 the first time.

Thank you for your advice. I agree that medical school name isn't that important. I'm more concerned with being overly ambitious and not getting into medical school. I know that I will be happy getting in anywhere.

 

[ChordaEpiphany]

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[Endoxifen]

What are your stats, what was your undergrad, and what state are you a resident of?

Well, I don't think I should worry about getting into a good residency until I get into medical school. However, I will keep that in mind and not try to aim too low. Though, I don't think that will be a problem.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Well, I don't think I should worry about getting into a good residency until I get into medical school. However, I will keep that in mind and not try to aim too low. Though, I don't think that will be a problem.

I think you quoted the wrong person 😉

 

[Endoxifen]

I think you quoted the wrong person 😉

I may have done. Late nights, finals, and all that. Sorry for bothering you!

 

[ChordaEpiphany]

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