PhD/PsyD LMHC to Phd

[Therapist4Chnge]

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School Neuropsychologists are not pretending to be neuropsychologists, in fact, the board for the field specifically outlines this. The field is actually to provide further training to practicing school psychologists on the neurological aspects that can/and do impede on matters relevant to the school.

This does not jive with the FIRST bullet point in the explanation from the (for profit) online training program invented to sell the made up (and purposefully misleading) title....

• Provide neuropsychological assessment and interpretation services to schools for children with known or suspected neurological conditions.

Source: https://www.schoolneuropsych.com/index.php?id=243

1. Inventing a sub-specialty, title, and boarding process does not make the completely inadequate training any better.

2. How the heck can someone do this training, administer the testing, and then ethically interpret the data?

3. How about at the MA level? Buried in the eligibility section it allows for MA level SP to do this training....

 

[smalltownpsych]

Many psychologists, as I'm sure any counselor will realize, has a significant ego program. They truly feel as though a counselor is inferior to them and that counselors want to be them. Even though I was a licensed counselor (and still working as therapist with my masters), and now working on my clinical psych doctorate, I do not see the psychology field as superior and in no way, do I believe that a psychologist does "better therapy" than a counselor. They are very distinct fields, you cannot compare the two- it is not like a NP and a MD/DO.

Are you really in a doctoral program in psychology and make broad unsupported statements like that? Psychologists have a very specific skill set and it might be helpful for you to understand what that is if you are going to be one. I have worked with a lot of MA level providers, I used to hire them as a clinical director. The people who hired me and the therapists that worked for me relied on the skill set that I developed through my doctoral training as a psychologist. I don't think that made me a better therapist, although I am pretty damn good at that part of the skill set, but I was more well versed in research, law and ethics (this was a big one), organizational psychology, assessment and diagnosis, and had accrued a lot of teaching and supervision experience to impart as well.

 

[mkberry85]

Are you really in a doctoral program in psychology and make broad unsupported statements like that? Psychologists have a very specific skill set and it might be helpful for you to understand what that is if you are going to be one. I have worked with a lot of MA level providers, I used to hire them as a clinical director. The people who hired me and the therapists that worked for me relied on the skill set that I developed through my doctoral training as a psychologist. I don't think that made me a better therapist, although I am pretty damn good at that part of the skill set, but I was more well versed in research, law and ethics (this was a big one), organizational psychology, assessment and diagnosis, and had accrued a lot of teaching and supervision experience to impart as well.

I never claimed that psychologists don't have "specific sets." What statement of mine was a "broad unsupported statement"? Nothing I said was inaccurate, at least based upon my years of experience within mental and behavioral health.

 

[mkberry85]

This does not jive with the FIRST bullet point in the explanation from the (for profit) online training program invented to sell the made up (and purposefully misleading) title....



1. Inventing a sub-specialty, title, and boarding process does not make the completely inadequate training any better.

2. How the heck can someone do this training, administer the testing, and then ethically interpret the data?

3. How about at the MA level? Buried in the eligibility section it allows for MA level SP to do this

This does not jive with the FIRST bullet point in the explanation from the (for profit) online training program invented to sell the made up (and purposefully misleading) title....



1. Inventing a sub-specialty, title, and boarding process does not make the completely inadequate training any better.

2. How the heck can someone do this training, administer the testing, and then ethically interpret the data?

3. How about at the MA level? Buried in the eligibility section it allows for MA level SP to do this training....

School psychology requires specific number of hours, some programs offer EdS/PsyS programs, others just offer a MA/MS, but same hours, same licensing.

As I have stated, I don't fully support the ABSNP (I stated the board, not Kids Inc, who owns the certificate program), but I do feel that providing neuropsychology training to school psychologists is a great idea.

 

[Chalupacabra]

The APA is fighting for the school psychology license to be changed to a doctorate, but the school psychology field is fighting it. I was engaged in a very heated debate on this topic on LinkedIn not too long ago. The EdS is typically 60-66 hours (some more, but not less), which in terms of hours, is not significantly different from a PhD in Clinical Psychology.

School Neuropsychologists are not pretending to be neuropsychologists, in fact, the board for the field specifically outlines this. The field is actually to provide further training to practicing school psychologists on the neurological aspects that can/and do impede on matters relevant to the school.

This is debatable. Regardless, EdS school psych programs have a remarkably different curriculum and far less practica. While I think my current (NASP approved) SP program is excellent, it does not offer much in the way of clinical training. Even in NY where there is a huge push to license EdS level SPs for private practice the proposed bill (developed by SPs) limits scope of practice when it comes to severe mental health disorders (e.g. schizophrenia) and requires frequent collaboration and consultation with an M.D. The specialized training in special education law and educational psychology doesn't leave a ton of room for a very deep look at psychopathology and other key program areas that a clinical psych program is going to teach, much less the amount of time spent on research and clinical practica. I think EdS level training is fine for SPs, but I think they (and their trainers) need to be mindful about the limitations of the training, especially when it comes to serious mental health issues.

As for the bit about school neuropsychs, I think that if the program moved away from the use/interpretation of neuropsych instruments then neuropsychologists would be more open to this style of training (at least if I'm reading T4C and others' complaints correctly). Given how far the program falls from the Houston Conference standards - only one of the six core trainers in the School Neuropsych program is actually board certified in neuropsychology by the ABPP and the program is about a third the length of what ABPP recommends - I see why they take issue. It's a shame, because the site hosts a lot of great resources (I took and learned a lot from the 10 webinar, 30 hour introductory series) and I think if it operated as a source of CE credits and resources for educators interested in neuropsychology and not a full fledged certification program that actively flies in the face of what the ABPP recommends then neuropsychs might be more interested in supporting it.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

Irony, bias, and world views!
What viewpoint counts when you are an LPC-S, NCC, NCSP, ABSNP Diplomat, Licensed Clinical Psychologist, HSP, and currently approved for early entry ABPP in geropsychology and neuropsychology, as I am. Once my two-year postdoctoral in clinical neuropsychology is completed in four months, I will take the written and oral exam for ABPP-CN Boards.

It goes back to ones interest level and motivation rather than inferior or superior training models.

My tendency is to strive for training and certification in areas that increases my level of knowledge and competence to provide high standards of service for clients, patients, and residents.

 

[erg923]

Many psychologists, as I'm sure any counselor will realize, has a significant ego program. They truly feel as though a counselor is inferior to them and that counselors want to be them.

Yea, this occupies most of my day as a psychologist. Wonder I get any work done.

Ive never heard of a "school neuropsychologist" and don't even understand what that means.

The field is actually to provide further training to practicing school psychologists on the neurological aspects that can/and do impede on matters relevant to the school.

This is make believe.

 

[mkberry85]

Regardless, EdS school psych programs have a remarkably different curriculum and far less practica. While I think my current (NASP approved) SP program is excellent, it does not offer much in the way of clinical training. Even in NY where there is a huge push to license EdS level SPs for private practice the proposed bill (developed by SPs) limits scope of practice when it comes to severe mental health disorders (e.g. schizophrenia) and requires frequent collaboration and consultation with an M.D. The specialized training in special education law and educational psychology doesn't leave a ton of room for a very deep look at psychopathology and other key program areas that a clinical psych program is going to teach, much less the amount of time spent on research and clinical practica. I think EdS level training is fine for SPs, but I think they (and their trainers) need to be mindful about the limitations of the training, especially when it comes to serious mental health issues.

I agree and have argued this for years. I have argued that school psychologists lack training in psychotherapy and differential diagnosis/psychopathology. I do not feel as though that a school psychologist, at least at the master or specialist level, is qualified or competent in mental health.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I never claimed that psychologists don't have "specific sets." What statement of mine was a "broad unsupported statement"? Nothing I said was inaccurate, at least based upon my years of experience within mental and behavioral health.

Many psychologists have an ego problem is a broad unsupported statement. It is your opinion based on your own interactions. frankly, there are a number of things about your posting that is irksome and seem to be saying counselors are the same or better than psychologists. ahen you attack someone's profession and they defend it, does that qualify as an ego problem? If so, I must have one too.

 

[Koogy]

Thank you for your reply;; I think your experience is something I really needed to hear~ So like you said because you have the options to bill the insurance as LMFT instead of a psychologist-- wouldn't that be a big benefit in terms of being accepted from several insurance companies? So shouldn't I at get my LMHC while applying to Phd? And also, if I may ask what you think about someone who has both LMHC and LCSW? Aren't they very similar? Like what would be the point of having both? Would you think this is a waste?

It depends on what state you are in. Some states have fairly similar respects for both licensed counselors and social workers. For example, in GA (my state), LPC lobbied and just got their ability to involuntary admit someone. Social workers and MDs have been able to do this for years. LMFTs however, are much smaller and minority in GA, so they have not become powerful enough to lobby the same priveleges.

If you have more than 2,000 hours to get your licensure and getting those hours at cost of going to school to be a licensed psychologist, then my advice would be to get to your psychologist training and licensure as fast as possible (meaning, get into a PsyD /Phd program ASAP). As a psychologist, you will have doors open for you like no masters level clinician ever will. Plus, the longer you post pone getting into PsyD phd program, the higher your chances of never making there at all: school burnout, life stage changes, etc.

Now if you are wanting a phd in "counselor education and supervision" , that's a whole other ball game.

Either way, Keep track of your masters level hours; it should help you accrue hours towards PsyD/phd grad requirements.