Loan forgiveness for 10 years of public service - are we eligible?

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quideam

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New program of loan forgiveness for 10 years in public service, starting July 1, 2009: http://www.ibrinfo.org/what.vp.html

Would residency count towards those years - since we're funded by medicaid? Or, at least, assuming after graduation you work exclusively for non-profits and public hospitals, would you qualify? It sounds pretty good, actually, especially considering that you can use income-based repayment; so, if you're spending a lot of time working with, say, Doctors Without Borders, etc., it seems that you wouldn't have to worry about making hefty loan payments back home?

Please correct me if my thoughts along this line are wrong - but it sounds promising!

Also - does anyone know about paying US taxes (federal) if you're living and working abroad? How does that work?

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Yes, it sounds like we will be for residency since most (and probably all teaching hospitals) are non-profit. It's not based on where your funding comes from, it's based on where your paycheck comes from. The challenge comes after residency (hmmm...here's a case for fellowship if I ever saw one!) once you are an attending - you'll need to work for a non-profit and student loans will eat up a lot of your salary (2300 according to the calculation for my debt and a 200k salary).
 
We were told about this program through the Henry Ford Direct Loans Program last year at my financial aid exit interview. Basically they said if we make 10 years of consecutive income sensitive payments and met 2 stipulations (I forget, but something to do with it being a 501c institution and I think being involved with academics), they would waive your loans. I consolidated all my federal loans into the program, but am too poor right now to make payments when they would have been about 550 a month (during 5 years of residency, that would have been half the time). I then calculated the payments at the average EM attending's salary, and I would pay off my loans completely with income sensitive payments in about 7 years anyway. So, while I think it is worth it, it is only really worth it if you plan on making payments in residency (and yes, they told us that during ANY residency, your job should qualify).
 
All true - but say I'm working for MSF half the year ($1500/month, I believe? plus per diem for local expenses but its the 1500 or so that's actually "income") = $9000. Let's say $10,000 if that goes up, whatever. Then the other half of the year, let's say i'm working internationally (south africa!! - I really have no intention of sticking around in the states once i'm done, Cape Town is way too nice an option!), for a public teaching hospital - i'm looking at around $5,000 US/month, give or take - so that's $30,000. Make it $40,000 total and i'm looking at nice, small loan payments until the ten years are up, with more than half my loan being forgiven afterwards. Too good to be true?
 
All true - but say I'm working for MSF half the year ($1500/month, I believe? plus per diem for local expenses but its the 1500 or so that's actually "income") = $9000. Let's say $10,000 if that goes up, whatever. Then the other half of the year, let's say i'm working internationally (south africa!! - I really have no intention of sticking around in the states once i'm done, Cape Town is way too nice an option!), for a public teaching hospital - i'm looking at around $5,000 US/month, give or take - so that's $30,000. Make it $40,000 total and i'm looking at nice, small loan payments until the ten years are up, with more than half my loan being forgiven afterwards. Too good to be true?

It really depends on how they view your international salary. The guidelines say they have to be non-profit, but I'm not sure how they'd determine that if it was a non-US organization. I certainly agree that MSF SHOULD be regarded as non-profit...but you know how the government is!
 
It really depends on how they view your international salary. The guidelines say they have to be non-profit, but I'm not sure how they'd determine that if it was a non-US organization. I certainly agree that MSF SHOULD be regarded as non-profit...but you know how the government is!

Usually the government does like paying for U.S. residency graduates to work abroad in other countries . . . prior loan repayment programs had required work in an underserved area in the U.S. . . .
 
Ahh!! Nice: "Doctors Without Borders USA, Inc. is recognized as tax-exempt under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code." (from their website)

So, under the rules, it would count!

But I have no idea about generally working abroad, say for a public hospital in another country. Hmm... there must be a way to make this work.
 
Someone from the AAMC spoke about this with us at a financial aid presentation a month or so ago. She stated that if you make payments on your loans during residency/fellowship, as long as it is at a qualifying institution (most teaching hospitals are), it will count towards this. If you continued to work at the same hospital afterwards for a total of 10 years including residency/fellowship, your debt would be forgiven.

However, I'm a little leary of the whole thing. There are no forms you sign for this and the government makes no commitment to you- you are essentially counting on the program qualifications being unchanged 10 years from now when you try to get your loans forgiven. I guess I'm a bit cynical but it is entirely possible to see the program rules being changed in the next decade, otherwise the government is going to be forgiving most of the debt of everybody who works in an academic setting + any other qualifying non-profit for a few years after residency. While that would be nice, it's going to amount to tens (hundreds?) of millions of dollars of loan write offs, and it's pretty easy to imagine some politician along the way questioning the economic feasibility of forgiving the debt of every sub-specialist who works in a teaching hospital for a few years after residency/fellowship. It seems like it has great potential but until the program rules are clarified and formalized so there is some sort of guarantee, it seems unwise to make career decisions based on it.
 
Someone from the AAMC spoke about this with us at a financial aid presentation a month or so ago. She stated that if you make payments on your loans during residency/fellowship, as long as it is at a qualifying institution (most teaching hospitals are), it will count towards this. If you continued to work at the same hospital afterwards for a total of 10 years including residency/fellowship, your debt would be forgiven.

However, I'm a little leary of the whole thing. There are no forms you sign for this and the government makes no commitment to you- you are essentially counting on the program qualifications being unchanged 10 years from now when you try to get your loans forgiven. I guess I'm a bit cynical but it is entirely possible to see the program rules being changed in the next decade, otherwise the government is going to be forgiving most of the debt of everybody who works in an academic setting + any other qualifying non-profit for a few years after residency. While that would be nice, it's going to amount to tens (hundreds?) of millions of dollars of loan write offs, and it's pretty easy to imagine some politician along the way questioning the economic feasibility of forgiving the debt of every sub-specialist who works in a teaching hospital for a few years after residency/fellowship. It seems like it has great potential but until the program rules are clarified and formalized so there is some sort of guarantee, it seems unwise to make career decisions based on it.

You don't have to stay at the same institution, just be at a non-profit.
 
maybe once you students become residents and work with patients for awhile your ethics will become more of a priority and you will remember that YOU borrowed this money and should pay it all back without complaint. and just so you know, im 242,000 now (prob easy 250k by end of residency) consolidated for 30 years at 5.5%. i have discussed options with more than a few financial advisors and they all agree--due to the low interest, just make the payment you can for the entire time. make other efforts to pay off debt with higher interest rates before you worry about paying off the student loan. also beware of loan repayment options when you do find that first job, the majority of them offer the money as a bonus, ergo it gets taxed as income. get a 100k to pay towards your loan and at the end of the year your earned income is now 100k higher=much higher taxes.
 
maybe once you students become residents and work with patients for awhile your ethics will become more of a priority and you will remember that YOU borrowed this money and should pay it all back without complaint. and just so you know, im 242,000 now (prob easy 250k by end of residency) consolidated for 30 years at 5.5%. i have discussed options with more than a few financial advisors and they all agree--due to the low interest, just make the payment you can for the entire time. make other efforts to pay off debt with higher interest rates before you worry about paying off the student loan. also beware of loan repayment options when you do find that first job, the majority of them offer the money as a bonus, ergo it gets taxed as income. get a 100k to pay towards your loan and at the end of the year your earned income is now 100k higher=much higher taxes.

Well, the program we're discussing is a gov't sponsored program to help eliminate student loan debt of those who complete 10 years of public service. Considering this is already available for people who are in the military, work for the NIH, or work for underserved areas, I'd argue that it's deserved and long overdue.
 
Of course, we're all very much aware of our obligations. But if there's a government-sponsored program that can ultimately reduce the loan burden in exchange for working in public service, why shouldn't we take advantage of it? This is speaking as someone who's interested in spending the majority of her career abroad, so it's not like i'll be making $200K+ - so repayment is definitely an issue, and a valid one.
 
maybe once you students become residents and work with patients for awhile your ethics will become more of a priority and you will remember that YOU borrowed this money and should pay it all back without complaint.

And we shouldn't complain about the fact that we entered medical school when interest rates were around 3%, when loan deferment existed in residency, and when tuition rates were lower than what they are now?

The rules have changed on us. I say legally utilize anything that rolls in your favor because quite frankly, we're about to be assaulted by a brutal tax structure that assails those who invest in their future, make wise decisions, and use God's given talents to support themselves and their families.
 
The rules have changed on us. I say legally utilize anything that rolls in your favor because quite frankly, we're about to be assaulted by a brutal tax structure that assails those who invest in their future, make wise decisions, and use God's given talents to support themselves and their families.


I am assuming you are referring to the tax increase on those making greater than $250,000 a year to levels below that of the Reagan years? Yeah, real brutal. We should all be crying ourselves to sleep. You forgot to mention in your reasons for making it into the top tax bracket that the majority of those individuals came from a families in the upper tax brackets (which myself is not included, neither is my partner who is an MSII), did not have social injustices holding us down (again, my partner, her parents were both legal immigrants with no savings, I was a white, middle class kid in rural pennsylvania, no inner city, underfunded, overcrowded, poor opportunity school for me). It is the naive and idealistic idea that everyone who works hard and is dedicated (with a spice of talent) will be successful and those that do not work hard will not become successful. While I am not taking away from us who have worked hard and seized opportunities as they were offered to us (like my full tuition scholarship in undergrad for my high marks in HS, if my high school was poor, didn't offer numerous extracurricular opportunities and AP courses, as well as an SAT prep course every student was required to take in 11th grade, that might not have been available to me), to claim this as what every, or even most people in this higher tax bracket is there because they invested in their future, made wise decisions, and used God's given talents (is being born with a silver spoon a talent? maybe) is unfounded.
 
There is absolutely no guarantee that this program will be around in 10 years, nor that you will qualify.

The lack of clarity about this program says to me that it's not a matter of if the rules change, but WHEN they change. They're going to have to set up some more strict parameters eventually and we don't know what those are going to be.

Moreover, the best way to pay during residency would be to do IBR. With IBR you can't prioritize and pay your highest interest loans off first. So that could end up costing money.

I think that things that sound too good to be true usually are.
 
So, if I'm reading this correctly, someone who does a 5-year active duty military residency and then serves for an additional five years can have their loans forgiven?
 
I am assuming you are referring to the tax increase on those making greater than $250,000 a year to levels below that of the Reagan years?

Comment : I actually agree with the rest of your post. Although, I do think people's rewards should be proportional to what they accomplish for other people : it may not be fair that you're becoming an educated doctor over another equally talented kid who has to be a plumber, but what you do is more valuable and you should be rewarded for success.

But anyways, the enormous national debt will have to be serviced and gradually paid off, just like a credit card bill. To do this taxes will eventually have to be raised to levels substantially higher than they are today (10%+ raise). And, the more money Obama borrows, the more we'll have to pay back later.

Whether you're a democrat or republican, you have to realize that every trillion in debt is effectively raising taxes on the future. Whether this is overall a bad thing or a good thing depends on your political views.
 
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Moreover, the best way to pay during residency would be to do IBR. With IBR you can't prioritize and pay your highest interest loans off first. So that could end up costing money.

That's not what I learned during exit counseling. You don't have to consolidate you loans into one with IBR, and you can therefore put extra money above the minimum payment towards the debt with the highest interest rate.
 
That's not what I learned during exit counseling. You don't have to consolidate you loans into one with IBR, and you can therefore put extra money above the minimum payment towards the debt with the highest interest rate.

You are correct. You do not have to consolidate your loans with IBR.

However, you have to be in active repayment during residency. My understanding is that for those of us with >200K in federal debt, monthly payments during residency could be quite large. Is this correct?

Second, (and probably more importantly) the whole goal to PSLF is to pay as little towards your loans as possible and the way to do this is through IBR.
 
Does the math work out for a residency that is 3-4 years and making a doctor's salary for years following? Will the income adjusted payments just pay the entire thing off anyways in 10 years based on the IBR scheme?
 
Does the math work out for a residency that is 3-4 years and making a doctor's salary for years following? Will the income adjusted payments just pay the entire thing off anyways in 10 years based on the IBR scheme?

I did the math for a 4 year residency and there is some savings. (Salary of 50k during residency, 200k as an attending were the numbers I used). Savings go WAY up if you add on a 2 year fellowship, though.
 
That's not what I learned during exit counseling. You don't have to consolidate you loans into one with IBR, and you can therefore put extra money above the minimum payment towards the debt with the highest interest rate.

This is true, you can do IBR without consolidating and make extra payments as you say, but to be eligible for public service loan forgiveness (if you believe the program will be around in ten years), you have to do a consolidation through a direct loan from the feds (not through the fed-backed loans that are made through private banks).
 
What is up with all the abbreviations on this thread? FFR, QGG, IBR, POW, MILF, BDSM, common guys.
 
Technical jargon aside,Drs without Borders is an excellent option
Definitely make that choice
 
Technical jargon aside,Drs without Borders is an excellent option
Definitely make that choice

Well, financially, the optimal move appears to be to exploit the rules and work for a salary of $200k+ per year for a nonprofit organization, after spending 6-7 years in residency and fellowship for an extremely lucrative specialty. Depending on tax law interpretation and how much debt you have, that loan forgiveness can be worth $50,000-$150,000 per year you spent working for the nonprofit.
 
Well, financially, the optimal move appears to be to exploit the rules and work for a salary of $200k+ per year for a nonprofit organization, after spending 6-7 years in residency and fellowship for an extremely lucrative specialty. Depending on tax law interpretation and how much debt you have, that loan forgiveness can be worth $50,000-$150,000 per year you spent working for the nonprofit.

debt can be crippling - just look at the BU student
 
Why should I pay more and more taxes because I worked hard and have chosen a profession that will compensate me appropriately? I shouldn’t feel bad about the fact that I will make > 250, 000 and I don’t think I should have to pay for Obama’s absurd spending. I agree with the above poster who stated we are being penalized for having the means to invest in our futures and making smart fiscal and professional decisions.

Someone have a little chip on their shoulder? Boo hoo…you didn’t have all the bells and whistles growing up. I am also the product of 2 immigrants but don’t think that it changes anything. Work hard, have family that supports you and the sky’s the limits in my opinion. While many physicians do come from middle class and up families, that’s the way it works. It’s an individual’s responsibility to work hard and make up the difference. I’ve seen it many many times in my life and it is more than just possible but commonplace. What kind of rationale is there for taxing those that make more than $250,000 because most of them were middle class or wealthy to start with?

My point is that not everyone making $250,000 a year worked hard, and also that many people didn't get the opportunity to choose this profession. I worked in admissions and know there were plenty of worthy applicants who weren't going to be able to get into the school because of limitations on the numbers who get in. And what about people who were born to drug addicted parents because our system in america is broken with dealing with drug abuse, or were beaten daily, or whose only source of guidance growing up was the gang? Many of smart, talented individuals are in situations that made them disadvantaged, didn't give them the same opportunity and chance that you and I might of had. We seized that opportunity, and should be commended on it, but it is important to keep everything in perspective. The "American Dream" that everyone who works hard can achieve anything they want is more BS than the idea that gay marriage will destroy heterosexual marriage. You should try taking a basic Sociology course if you didn't have an opportunity to learn about this.
What you are also failing to realize is that someone making $250K will always be bringing home and banking more than someone making $200K. And someone making $400K will be bringing home more than someone making $200K. The tax rate above $250K as being proposed is on income ABOVE the $250K rate. Yes, your proportionate return on that income is less compared to other income, but you still bank more money. And the utility of that extra money is not nearly as high as the first 25K, 50K, even 100K that you make. Your argument seems to be that a flat tax is fair and the only way to appropriately reward people for "hard work". I recommend you taking an intro to economics course if you think a flat tax is fair and appropriate. 20% of 40K leaves you with 32K to spend on everything, including food, home, clothing, transportation, which will leave very little (say 5K for example sake) on extraneous costs. 20% of 200K will leave you with 160K to spend on everything, including food, home, clothing, transportation, which, even if you spent twice as much on all of that as the previous example, which worked out to be 27K for all those expenses, so 54K, you still are left with 106K on extraneous costs than the first person. But if you paid 40% instead of 20%, you are still left with 86K on extraneous costs compared to the 5K in the first example. Doctors more than most making 200K have more costs, such as loan repayment, insurance, etc, but still, i think my point is somewhat made of why you can pay a higher tax rate and still be better off than someone paying a lower tax rate.
 
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