Loan forgiveness

[TheEarDoc]

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OK so I know many MD's and DO's can get loan forgiveness for working in rural settings, but I was wondering do such programs exist for NP's or PA's?

I already have 60k in loan debt from my doctorate in Audiology and if I'm going to drop another 50k or so for PA school or NP school it would be great if I could get some loan forgiveness.

I live in a rural area and general practice/family med or emergency department in a rural area would be right up my alley either route.

Anyone know if loan forgiveness exists for PA's or NP's?

 

[Starpower]

Yes. See page 6: http://nhsc.hrsa.gov/loanrepayment/pdf/2011nhsclrpguidance.pdf

 

[Makati2008]

OK so I know many MD's and DO's can get loan forgiveness for working in rural settings, but I was wondering do such programs exist for NP's or PA's?

I already have 60k in loan debt from my doctorate in Audiology and if I'm going to drop another 50k or so for PA school or NP school it would be great if I could get some loan forgiveness.

I live in a rural area and general practice/family med or emergency department in a rural area would be right up my alley either route.

Anyone know if loan forgiveness exists for PA's or NP's?

It you are really trying to do rural ER I would advise you to not go to NP school(especially the direct route) you will be a danger to your patients with little clinical training to back it up. If you have no other choice Iwould see if you could do a Midlevel fellowship or residency(I know of one for PA's and they come out strong but I have never heard of one with NP's in it)

The PA route will give you the generalist training and you could get a lot more ER exposure in your rotations and even possibly do more ER rotations at a Busy ER center for more experience(it won't be nearly enough but much better than some of the NP training I have heard of)

Also ER does not have loan forgiveness in a lot of areas that I know of unless your hospital is willing to be kind and do this for you.

Good luck and just because their are not a "lot" of PAs in your area, I would assume you will be fine in rural America(now if you want to become an independent provider go to medical school and not the cheap shortcut.)

 

[sarjasy]

It you are really trying to do rural ER I would advise you to not go to NP school(especially the direct route) you will be a danger to your patients with little clinical training to back it up.

As a future NP, I totally agree that a DE NP program would not be sufficient prep to work in a rural ER unless you can get a couple of years supervision after school - but then I'd say that for a PA too. No PA is prepared right out of school to walk into a rural ER and practice without close supervision initially. That PA programs have an EM rotation is great, but that rotation is not designed for one to be completely prepared for a rural ER day one - or even day 365, unless you're talking fast track, but that's not rural. A great route for NP's is to work as an RN in an ER for a couple of years before/while getting the M.S. as well as getting clinical rotations in the ER and/or doing an internship. That's not enough to start rural ER day one either, but better than a new PA with no ER experience other than one rotation.

 

[Makati2008]

As a future NP, I totally agree that a DE NP program would not be sufficient prep to work in a rural ER unless you can get a couple of years supervision after school - but then I'd say that for a PA too. No PA is prepared right out of school to walk into a rural ER and practice without close supervision initially. That PA programs have an EM rotation is great, but that rotation is not designed for one to be completely prepared for a rural ER day one - or even day 365, unless you're talking fast track, but that's not rural. A great route for NP's is to work as an RN in an ER for a couple of years before/while getting the M.S. as well as getting clinical rotations in the ER and/or doing an internship. That's not enough to start rural ER day one either, but better than a new PA with no ER experience other than one rotation.

1.)Mostly agree with this. But practice as a RN does not equate to practice as a NP/PA.
2.)Disagree with the bolded statement I would prefer an EMT/Paramedic coming in and doing ER moreso than an RN turned NP. Just personal preference due to bad outcomes I have seen(seen them from PAs too but more so NP).
3.)Again I am baised I came out of PA school worked one year in a major hospital and went into rural EM literally a year later. I think the training I recieved as a PA prepared me for this and being a RN going to a part time program wouldn't have prepared me as well. I think if this was the case(if I went to a PT or even FT PA cirriculum modeled after the NP one) then FM/IM would have been a better option.

 

[sarjasy]

1.)Mostly agree with this. But practice as a RN does not equate to practice as a NP/PA....I would prefer an EMT/Paramedic coming in and doing ER moreso than an RN turned NP. Just personal preference due to bad outcomes I have seen(seen them from PAs too but more so NP).

True, and didn't mean to sound like I was suggesting that. I'm something of a newb, but in my short time I've been around several ER nurses that could often tell me the diagnosis before the physician even saw the patient, and who likewise had a rock-solid understanding of meds, treatments, diagnostics, etc. and they are merely RN's.

As I said, I'm a newb, but I can't say that I understand why you prefer a EMT/Paramedic to a smart, experienced ER RN. That one's beyond me.

....being a RN going to a part time program wouldn't have prepared me as well. I think if this was the case(if I went to a PT or even FT PA cirriculum modeled after the NP one) then FM/IM would have been a better option.

I don't see how you can honestly say this, unless you have a very solid understanding of RN curriculum, which most don't. I didn't until I started nursing school, began reading, studying, sitting in on lectures, and going to clinicals. It's astounding to me how many people think nursing school is learning about bed pans, linen changes, and ambulating the patient down the hall. Not saying you think this, but even having researched nursing school for a year prior to starting, I didn't realize how deeply and broadly so many topics are covered (anatomy, physiology, patho, medical & surgical treatments, physical assessment, etc.). It's no where near, say, med school, of course, but much more in-depth than I ever anticipated. Also, while I see it posted on here a lot (without any rationale), I'm not sure what part-time has to do with anything.

 

[Makati2008]

True, and didn't mean to sound like I was suggesting that. I'm something of a newb, but in my short time I've been around several ER nurses that could often tell me the diagnosis before the physician even saw the patient, and who likewise had a rock-solid understanding of meds, treatments, diagnostics, etc. and they are merely RN's.

As I said, I'm a newb, but I can't say that I understand why you prefer a EMT/Paramedic to a smart, experienced ER RN. That one's beyond me.



I don't see how you can honestly say this, unless you have a very solid understanding of RN curriculum, which most don't. I didn't until I started nursing school, began reading, studying, sitting in on lectures, and going to clinicals. It's astounding to me how many people think nursing school is learning about bed pans, linen changes, and ambulating the patient down the hall. Not saying you think this, but even having researched nursing school for a year prior to starting, I didn't realize how deeply and broadly so many topics are covered (anatomy, physiology, patho, medical & surgical treatments, physical assessment, etc.). It's no where near, say, med school, of course, but much more in-depth than I ever anticipated. Also, while I see it posted on here a lot (without any rationale), I'm not sure what part-time has to do with anything.

Ugh sdn has deleted my postx2.
Short versions:
1.)Rn's miss a lot of these "diagnosis" that they make 'correctly'.I have had them diagnosis someone with something that was just a laceration be something as serious as a bleed. Also had one send me a pedi. skull fx to FT so I dont put too much stock into that.
2.)I prefer EMT/Paramedics in traumas in the ER. Also they are more procedure based than RN's among other things. For simple stuff like DM control a RN to NP should be fine. An inferior wall MI-I prefer an EMT/Para turned PA. So just past experience and personal preference.
3.)I have taken some of these "indepth courses" They are superficial at best when compared against undergrad/PA/Med. school courses in my experience. Also medicine is too indepth to be learned in a part time basis, and I personally disagree with the NP model as a whole due to them not being able to pass a watered down version of the USMLE step 3 and still whine about being equal and wanting more practice rights. Look at my previous post comparing these two with links attached. Also the whole DNP drama in its own right turns me of to noctors....

apologize for typos.
e.

 

[sarjasy]

1.)Rn's miss a lot of these "diagnosis" that they make 'correctly'.I have had them diagnosis someone with something that was just a laceration be something as serious as a bleed. Also had one send me a pedi. skull fx to FT so I dont put too much stock into that..

You're missing my point. I was talking about instances where the RN was correct - later confirmed by the physician's diagnosis. I am only using that as an example of the value of working as an RN in the ER before becoming an NP.

2.)I prefer EMT/Paramedics in traumas in the ER. Also they are more procedure based than RN's among other things. For simple stuff like DM control a RN to NP should be fine. An inferior wall MI-I prefer an EMT/Para turned PA. So just past experience and personal preference.

...And I still don't follow your reasoning. A paramedic takes the patient to the RN. The paramedic and the RN are both gaining experience on the same patient, yet the RN completes more interventions throughout the case and is a more advanced provider of care. How about this: what exactly does a paramedic do that an experienced ER nurse cannot do?

I have taken some of these "indepth courses" They are superficial at best when compared against undergrad/PA/Med. school courses in my experience.

Really? What nursing courses have you taken? And when did I say they were comparable to med school?

Not sure what your PA prerequisites were, but all the one's I've seen are the same ones required for UNDERGRAD nursing school.

Also medicine is too indepth to be learned in a part time basis,

I've already asked once, but I don't mind asking again. What does part-time have to do with anything? What, substantively, would be the difference between a 2.5 yr full-time and a 4 yr part-time PA program?

...personally disagree with the NP model as a whole due to them not being able to pass a watered down version of the USMLE step 3...

What is the pass rates for PA's on a watered down step 3?

...and still whine about being equal and wanting more practice rights. Look at my previous post comparing these two with links attached. Also the whole DNP drama in its own right turns me of to noctors...

OK, well, since the AMA endorsed ObamaCare, that means all (or most) physicans support ObamaCare - is that right?

As for your conclusions about the DNP's wanting MD/DO equivalency -- you're generalizing to a population based on a sample size of < 10. Try doing that with real research and see how well that goes over.

 

[TheEarDoc]

I do have basic EMT. I don't expect to hit the ER day 1 out of NP program, I had planned on doing general med or internal med under a good mentor for a few years before hitting the ER.

Thank you for the pdf link!

As for the PA vs NP, I didn't want this to turn into that debate. I just wanted to know about loan forgiveness for either profession.

I am applying both to PA programs and NP programs and will have a tough decision to make, but I like being backed by the BON vs the BOM.I don't doubt that the PA program would be awesome in terms of the courses offered. It's a different way of thinking about things almost like a DO vs MD program to me.

I do love how the second year of a PA program has rotations in several different specialties, but I hardly doubt a few weeks of exposure in each area would prepare a PA student to step foot into that specialty and hit the ground running. I doubt I could even do this with my Audiology doctorate and going PA route into an otolaryngology practice.

Thanks for all the input everyone!

This is definitely something that is taking a lot of critical thinking. When one has a large amount of loan debt, money is going to become a deciding factor.

The PA programs are all private schools, the NP programs are all state universities.

My current place of employment will reimburse a lot of the tuition for my RN and NP degree and I can work full time at my current job while pursuing this degree which would make my significant other quite happy, but I'm not counting PA school out because like I said I love the specialty rotations you get in your clinical year.

I just know for sure I want to be a mid-level provider. If I wanted more than that I would have went to med school when it was offered to me several years ago.

Thanks again for your input everyone!

 

[Makati2008]

[QUOTE=sarjasy;10822510]You're missing my point. I was talking about instances where the RN was correct - later confirmed by the physician's diagnosis. I am only using that as an example of the value of working as an RN in the ER before becoming an NP.-1



...And I still don't follow your reasoning. A paramedic takes the patient to the RN. The paramedic and the RN are both gaining experience on the same patient, yet the RN completes more interventions throughout the case and is a more advanced provider of care. How about this: what exactly does a paramedic do that an experienced ER nurse cannot do?



Really? What nursing courses have you taken? And when did I say they were comparable to med school?

Not sure what your PA prerequisites were, but all the one's I've seen are the same ones required for UNDERGRAD nursing school.



I've already asked once, but I don't mind asking again. What does part-time have to do with anything? What, substantively, would be the difference between a 2.5 yr full-time and a 4 yr part-time PA program?



What is the pass rates for PA's on a watered down step 3?



OK, well, since the AMA endorsed ObamaCare, that means all (or most) physicans support ObamaCare - is that right?

As for your conclusions about the DNP's wanting MD/DO equivalency -- you're generalizing to a population based on a sample size of < 10. Try doing that with real research and see how well that goes over.[/QUOTE]

1.)Sorry you didn't specifiy that.
2.) Let's see intubate, I/O(RN's can do this but I have seen this done once), in some states central line,juglars(again RN's can do this but I have seen it rarely done). They also seem to be a more prepared provider in providing care in the PALS/ACLS level(again I have worked with them more closely than a student....). In other words some of the invasive procedures I would like in a truly traumatic patient. I will give you this that RN's are the most advanced provider but again its preference. Since you are a NEWBIE(taking this approach since you are doing it first) I doubt you can understand the whole picture until you practice as a NP for a few years.
3.)I truly doubt that see one program below:
http://www.lmunet.edu/dcom/pa/criteria.shtml
http://www.georgiahealth.edu/Admissions/Prerequisites/mpa.html
I have never seen those courses required for a RN degree but we both have not been exposed to ALL programs. But again highly doubt a RN programwill take biochemistry most of the ones I was exposed to (Both undergrad. and where I went to PA school) a survery of gen chem. surficed. Also I see one school requires an 8 hour sequence biol. 101/102 are quite easy..
RN:
http://www.georgiahealth.edu/Admissions/Prerequisites/bsn.html
http://www.lmunet.edu/pdf/rn-bsn-option-brochure.pdf

So again most of these class can be taken as the lower level courses for the RN program and still be accepted. It is harder for you to get by with that as a PA due to the requirements.
4.)I took the watered down version(anatomy) required to get into RN school. It was a highly suggested course for PA school and was still on the fence a little bit about RN/PA/Med. so I took it along with Organic and Physics to get a break. I wonder if your RN cirriculum prereqs where that hard?
5.)PA schools on average wouldn't do this due to us having to take the PANCE. Also you cannot compare PA school to NP school(see older post for cirriculums). Also the NP cirriculum itself is one of the reasons there won't and isn't a NP-DO/MD bridge because its not nearly standardized enough. I heard this from a VERY reliable source.(That is for your time length question)
6.)As far as the watered down step 3, NPs were/are trying to do this to use as another reason to claim their "independence" PAs know their place in the medical role and have no need for the step 3. The PANCEs is most appopriate. I would be willing to wager though, that if it were taken by most they would pass at a higher rate than their NP counterparts due to being trained in the medical model.
7.)No offense kiddo grow up. The last little part seems to be an attack. Again I have seen it MORE than you would like to admit. I have friends that have even admitted that they see nothing wrong with this, and also heard NP's say they are smarter than an Attending because they wrote a thesis and the MD/DO didn't have too...(again I have mentioned this as well see an old post.) Even the NP that treated me for a toothache that couldn't figure out the most appopriate med. to cover someone with a PCN allergy said the same thing(not realizing I am a PA turned Med. student). I will admit no research done on in a double blinded manner but these are based on my experiences as a PA in the field that deals with Nps/rns.

 

[sarjasy]

Let's see intubate, I/O(RN's can do this but I have seen this done once), in some states central line,juglars(again RN's can do this but I have seen it rarely done)...

But what you are pointing out is what things are done on average by a paramedic vs. an RN in your personal experience, not what they are qualified or licensed to do. Everything you mention an RN can do. Perhaps they don't very often in your experience, but that isn't relevant. What is relevant is what each are licensed, trained and capable of doing and in the end, the RN is the more trained and advanced provider.

I truly doubt that see one program below:
http://www.lmunet.edu/dcom/pa/criteria.shtml
http://www.georgiahealth.edu/Admissi...sites/mpa.html



http://www.georgiahealth.edu/Admissi...sites/mpa.html

I have never seen those courses required for a RN degree but we both have not been exposed to ALL programs. But again highly doubt a RN programwill take biochemistry most of the ones I was exposed to...

We could play this game all day. I can easily produce for you multiple PA programs that have far fewer requirements. Both the schools that have more advanced and those that have less advanced requirements produce graduates that pass the PANCE, do they not?

I took the watered down version(anatomy) required to get into RN school. It was a highly suggested course for PA school and was still on the fence a little bit about RN/PA/Med. so I took it along with Organic and Physics to get a break. I wonder if your RN cirriculum prereqs where that hard?

I took full anatomy and physiology (didn't know there even were watered down versions), but that's not relevant. The fact is, there are PA programs that require no physics, will accept "watered down" versions of organic, and still produced grads that pass the PANCE and practice successfully as PA's, so its a moot point.

PA schools on average wouldn't do this due to us having to take the PANCE.

The point is, PA's haven't taken it, and you are only making assumptions that they would pass at a rate greater than 50%. They may very well, but there is no way to know, so you have no basis to say PA > NP based on this.

No offense kiddo grow up. The last little part seems to be an attack.

LOL! You accuse me of making an attack and then say "no offense kiddo grow up" all after referring to "noctors" in a previous post?

...and also heard NP's say they are smarter than an Attending because they wrote a thesis and the MD/DO didn't have too...(again I have mentioned this as well see an old post.) Even the NP that treated me for a toothache that couldn't figure out the most appopriate med.

I'll be the first to say, and have several times on this board, there are idiot NP's out there. But best I can tell, there are idiots in every profession. As for your anecdote about your tootchache and an NP, I could give you tons of examples of physicians doing far more egregious/*****ic things. But my examples would be purely anecdotal as well, and they prove nothing.

 

[Makati2008]

But what you are pointing out is what things are done on average by a paramedic vs. an RN in your personal experience, not what they are qualified or licensed to do. Everything you mention an RN can do. Perhaps they don't very often in your experience, but that isn't relevant. What is relevant is what each are licensed, trained and capable of doing and in the end, the RN is the more trained and advanced provider.



We could play this game all day. I can easily produce for you multiple PA programs that have far fewer requirements. Both the schools that have more advanced and those that have less advanced requirements produce graduates that pass the PANCE, do they not?

I took full anatomy and physiology (didn't know there even were watered down versions), but that's not relevant. The fact is, there are PA programs that require no physics, will accept "watered down" versions of organic, and still produced grads that pass the PANCE and practice successfully as PA's, so its a moot point.



The point is, PA's haven't taken it, and you are only making assumptions that they would pass at a rate greater than 50%. They may very well, but there is no way to know, so you have no basis to say PA > NP based on this.

Agreed. But if you ask any MD/DO they will tell you PA's are trained in the med. model which would give us a head up.

LOL! You accuse me of making an attack and then say "no offense kiddo grow up" all after referring to "noctors" in a previous post?
Nurse +doctor=Noctor. If someone came up with one for a PA doing something similar I would careless and laugh. Also I say no offense because you seem to be like a cat backed into a corner of sorts.


I'll be the first to say, and have several times on this board, there are idiot NP's out there. But best I can tell, there are idiots in every profession. As for your anecdote about your tootchache and an NP, I could give you tons of examples of physicians doing far more egregious/*****ic things. But my examples would be purely anecdotal as well, and they prove nothing.

1.)Agree with the top portion they are the most advanced provider but many nurses I see don't practice their full scope.
2.) Please post RN/NP vs PA cirriculums and Prereqs. There was one post where someone was really trying to say there should be an NP to DO/MD bridge until I posted some of the "requirements" to become a NP including course work. Also I have friends that are going to NP school(one has been in since before I started medical school) and she is complaining about a course load that is lighter then my easiest semester of undergraduate->Physicial Assessment and a Pharm course. If you can find my post to compare then you will see a drastic difference in our two fields. when this person saw it he backed wayyy off his stance for you guys. Again PAs are trained in a medical model vs. Algorithmic one for NPs. That was one of the reasons I replaced a NP(she was "let go") because if it wasn't in the algorithim then she couldn't figure it out. Also think about this-> If the NP cirriculum is equal to that of a PA, why does some states require NPs to go get more training instead of being able to float between specialities. I know in one southern state if your an acute care nurse practioner you cannot work in a ER that sees kids due to lack of training in that field.
3.)Let me ask you this-what was your previous career before nursing student? Did you attempt something else and then switch to nursing or was it your passion from day 1.
4.)Yea watered down Anatomy and Physiology exist. I studied the day before these test and still rocked almost a 100 average. As I progressed in school from PA to MD the material gets progressively worse. For example in undergrad you might learn a little of the brachial plexus but in PA school it goes deeper, and in medical school it goes to the deepest amount of learning on top of intergrated embroy/histo.

 

[sarjasy]

2.) Please post RN/NP vs PA cirriculums and Prereqs.

Here's a "Google" sampling. Requirements generally differ, but mostly by only one class (i.e. PA programs require 1 additional chem and nursing programs require patho as a prereq or in the program). Those that require an ochem or biochem accept a "watered down" version. One (Harding U), has fewer requirements for PA than RN. Again, all of these are accredited PA programs and produce graduates that pass the PANCE at high rates.

I had all the links copied to be pasted and I lost them, but your are more than welcome to check them out yourself. Check out PA vs. BSN requirements at University of Toledo, Harding University, Missouri State University, and Texas Tech as examples.

Also I have friends that are going to NP school(one has been in since before I started medical school) and she is complaining about a course load that is lighter

Anecdote. Please don't tempt me to post my own. 😉 They really don't further the conversation.

Also think about this-> If the NP cirriculum is equal to that of a PA, why does some states require NPs to go get more training instead of being able to float between specialities.

Umm, because NP's specialize and PA's don't. 🙂 Did you not realized that?

I know in one southern state if your an acute care nurse practioner you cannot work in a ER that sees kids due to lack of training in that field.

Think maybe it's because adult ACNP's have no training with kids?. Just a hunch on my part. Kinda' like how psychiatric NP's have no training in acute care settings?

3.)Let me ask you this-what was your previous career before nursing student? Did you attempt something else and then switch to nursing or was it your passion from day

Huh? Where did that come from? What is the relevance? If you can tell me, I'll happily answer.

4.)Yea watered down Anatomy and Physiology exist. I studied the day before these test and still rocked almost a 100 average.

Wow. You must be really smart. 🙂

 

[Makati2008]

QUOTE=sarjasy;10840755]Here's a "Google" sampling. Requirements generally differ, but mostly by only one class (i.e. PA programs require 1 additional chem and nursing programs require patho as a prereq or in the program). Those that require an ochem or biochem accept a "watered down" version. One (Harding U), has fewer requirements for PA than RN. Again, all of these are accredited PA programs and produce graduates that pass the PANCE at high rates.

1.)Lol I wouldn't be surprised about Harding at the least(I am well versed in that area of the world and I am still shocked they got a PA school) and there is an exception to every rule. I bet you can find some AA PA programs(CA and FL I bet?) and maybe some part time PA program(just using these for examples) but these are the exception and not the rule.

I had all the links copied to be pasted and I lost them, but your are more than welcome to check them out yourself. Check out PA vs. BSN requirements at University of Toledo, Harding University, Missouri State University, and Texas Tech as examples.

See above


Anecdote. Please don't tempt me to post my own. 😉 They really don't further the conversation.

2.)If you say so and I can agree with you. Just was saying them to give a real life point of view.


Umm, because NP's specialize and PA's don't. 🙂 Did you not realized that?
1.)Wrong here. PAs do specialize. We do cardiology(I was offered a job in this and have several classmates that took jobs in this), Acute/Critical care, EM, Nephrology(offered a job in this), radiology(interventional) etc...
Where the difference is there is a reason that PA's can see patients from craddle to grave in all situations and NP's in some instances cannot? Did you not know that? Like you said your still a newbie so that can be forgiven



Think maybe it's because adult ACNP's have no training with kids?. Just a hunch on my part. Kinda' like how psychiatric NP's have no training in acute care settings? -2.)See above post. Maybe if NP education was streamlined like PA education there would be no need for you to have to go back to school to specialize in a different specialty(Don't you think that is a waste of time and $ if it could be cut out?). Do you agree that the NP education could take some cues from the PA one? I asked for example about surgery to assist and one of my friends (NP) stated that she would have to go back and get a certification in FA to do this don't you think it is a waste? Just a question.



Huh? Where did that come from? What is the relevance? If you can tell me, I'll happily answer.-Wondering if you 1.)Applied to MD/DO school and didn't get in? 2.)Know so much about HCE to be a newbie?



Wow. You must be really smart. 🙂[/QUOTE]
Thats the problem I am not smart in the least but that goes to show you the problem with watered down programs. Every class should be challenging, heck even in med. school I get butterflies when an OSCE comes up and I have seen a few thousand patients in my career.

PS-I have no problems with Nurses. My sister is one 🙂

 

[deleted6669]

Makati- what I find interesting is that np's say they are specialists in a field with only 500-700 hrs in that field. I did 500 hrs of FP. I didn't call it a specialty, I called it a rotation, one of 8.

just like with anything some pa programs are better than others and some np programs are better than others. I'm particularly impressed with the dual acnp/fnp " emergency nurse practitioner program" at vandy. It has 1400 clinical hrs which is a good start.
some pa programs require minimal experience and prereqs to get in and some np programs can be done direct entry by non-nurses. not a fan of taking the easy way out for either degree.
I think there are some excellent pa's and np's out there. what they have in common is this:
strong prior health care experience, good academic preparation before pa school, and a willingness to go above and beyond while in school to meet and exceed expectations in the didactic and clinical phases.

 

[atcpt1]

Just the facts as I see them when researching each profession.
Comparison PA vs. DNP vs. MD

The "doctor" of nursing practice
Total average 80 credits (unstandardized education accredited by one of two different nursing bodies)
Part time education (while a nurse works full time).
Average less than 800 hours of didactic education
Average program has 700 clinical training hours. Students set up their own clinicals (typically).
Total actual nursing credits for RN in a BSN or ASN degree is 38 credits (average) with a total of 400 hrs clinical training. In my opinion, this time does not count towards the education of a practitioner. It's very different training than that of medicine and most of it is more technical or vocational based rather than academic. NP's must pick a specific track such as pediatrics, adult healthcare, family practice, midwifery, or psych. NP's are regulated by the nursing boards in each state. Medical residencies don't exist for nursing - there is one in psych, overseen by nursing staff. My understanding is that there are a handful of nursing based residencies (1 year) Students generally sit for one of two different certification exams.
NP's want independent practice without oversight by physicians. Vs.

PA school (degree awarded is not emphasized rather competency based education is and a Masters is now required for all programs)
Accredited by ARC-PA, a subgroup of sorts of the American medical association. Average program is 140 credits in length crammed into an average 27 months.
All programs are full-time (employment is forbidden) Your time is theirs 24 hours a day.
All programs structured after medical school education
Minimum didactic hours >2000.
Minimum clinical training hours >2000 with specific objectives required in each rotation. All rotations are set up by faculty in established academic hospitals and clinical sites.
Must train in all systems of the body both didactically and clinically (Nursing picks one track and studies only the systems associated with that track from a nursing approach).
Regulated in each state by the medical boards.
Medical residency training optional (usually 1 year programs). Students must pass the PANCE overseen by the American medical association before practice.
Continuing education required (100 hours every two years).
Recertification required every 6 years in general pediatric and internal medicine.
PA's always team with physicians to provide care and share similar responsibilities.

Vs.

Medical School
All programs are standardized - not degree based, however all award a clinical doctorate degree.
Average program is 155 credits in length
Minimum didactic hours is 2300 hours
Minimum clinical training during medical school is 2500 hours (includes three elective rotations). All rotations are set up by faculty with specific objectives required for each rotation.
Must train in all systems of the body both didactically and clinically
In last year of medical school, student must match for a residency in a field they would like to work
Residency is required (minimum of 3 years for some primary care fields and as much as 7 years in some surgical specialties) Additional fellowship or research training is optional.

The point: PA's have superior training to function as a practitioner to that of a DNP.
A "doctorate" degree in nursing is not a higher degree than a PA. The content of the education is what matters, not what you call it. It's as though it's the degree that garners respect rather than the profession and education. PA's have it right!

Are we still being fooled.....as though "doctorate" (degree creep) means your more educated. It's purely political malingering.

"D"NP = total 2200-ish hours of total training
PA = >4000 hours of MEDICAL training (not including science pre-requisites or optional residency training)
MD = >16000 hours minimum including residency and as much as >50,000 hours for specialty training.

****i't also important to note that nursing programs often don't require any pre-requisites or they are minimal at best. Often survey courses are all that is needed (if any). I can provide a link to a direct entry nurse practitioner program that doesn't require a single science course for entrance.

***It's also important to recognize that PA school is very competitive. Example of my local school - 700 applications for 30 spots.
Local NP program - every applicant accepted

 

[Makati2008]

Emed- I whole heartedly agree with your post. If they made the NP cirriculum offline and like ours then i would be fine with it. Also there is a reason why med. school(which several states refuse to accept graduates from the schools that do this for the people who decide to go to samoas med. school) is not allowed to do its clinical years online and no pa school has this at all. Nps should be banned from this as well. Seems to me the NP schools are just doing a quick cash grab for these "certs"

ATcpt1-best post I have read and I agree with your post. My problem with NPs is that there clinical education is lacking from -)the ones I have worked with except 1(who is np/pa) after working in several states. Now if you want to talk about writing papers they beat me hands down.

 

[sarjasy]

1.)Lol I wouldn't be surprised about Harding at the least(I am well versed in that area of the world and I am still shocked they got a PA school) and there is an exception to every rule. I bet you can find some AA PA programs(CA and FL I bet?) and maybe some part time PA program(just using these for examples) but these are the exception and not the rule.

Again, you are missing the point. ARC-PA has accredited these programs (and many others like them), meaning they meet their standards for PA education and the graduates of these programs pass the PANCE and then practice as PA's. It only takes a single school with fewer prerequisites and high PANCE pass rates to demonstrate that a correlation between the amount and difficulty of prerequisites is not predictive of PANCE pass rates &#8211; the very exam that is designed to demonstrate PA competency to practice. Furthermore, you have zero evidence that PA's graduating from these programs are less competent than those that graduate from other programs with increased prerequisite requirements.

The simple fact is that PA prerequisite course requirements vary greatly from school to school (as does, incidentally, experience requirements), yet despite this, they all are ARC-PA accredited and produced graduates that pass the PANCE at high enough rates to retain their accreditation. So when you say that PA prerequistite requirements are > nursing school prerequisites and thus PA's are > NP's, you don't have a leg to stand on when there are many PA schools that require equal prerequisites, yet produce graduates that have high PANCE pass rates. That is of course unless you are challenging the validity of the PANCE and the legitimacy of ARC-PA.

2.)If you say so and I can agree with you. Just was saying them to give a real life point of view.

Anecdotes DON'T give a real life point of view, hence why they are called "anectdotes."

1.)Wrong here. PAs do specialize. We do cardiology(I was offered a job in this and have several classmates that took jobs in this), Acute/Critical care, EM, Nephrology(offered a job in this), radiology(interventional) etc...

No, not wrong. I do not mean "specialize" in regard to their jobs, I mean in regard to their educations. Of course PA's specialize in their jobs &#8211; they work in specialty practice at a higher rate than NP's. PA's are educated broadly, NP's are only educated in a specific area &#8211; that is what I meant by specialize.

Do you agree that the NP education could take some cues from the PA one? I asked for example about surgery to assist and one of my friends (NP) stated that she would have to go back and get a certification in FA to do this don't you think it is a waste?

You friend doesn't know what she is talking about. Her statement is flat out false. Most first assists are only RN's, and in fact, you don't even have to be an RN to be a first assist. OR techs or the homeless bum on the street corner can be used as a first assist if the surgeon so desires.

Wondering if you 1.)Applied to MD/DO school and didn't get in?

Again, completely irrelevant to the conversation. You are on a fishing expedition hoping to find something about me personally that you can use to further your argument. My arguments, as do yours, rise or fall on their own, with no relationship to my or your personal life.

But, for the sake of ending the inaccurate speculation about me going on in your head as we have these conversations, I'll answer. A few years back I decided to change my career. I was highly successful in networking and data communications to the point that I will take a significant pay cut when I graduate. I'm not doing it for the money. I already have a B.S. In my previous degree, I was a 4.0 in the major. Graduate studies in an MBA program, and then later at seminary &#8211; both 4.0. My science prereqs, none of which were the "watered down" versions &#8211; 4.0. My nursing GPA thus far &#8211; 3.9. National exam in anatomy and physiology after completing the course sequence &#8211; 89th percentile. Progression exams (5 to date) during nursing school &#8211; none less than 98th percentile nationally.

Before leaving my previous career, I looked at pharmacy, optometry, medical school, PA school and last, nursing school. After extensive shadowing and research, I decided I wanted primary care. I then ruled out med school because FP is low yield when considering the time and cost (in regard to the nature of the work). Though PA school would have been a shorter path, I would have had to relocate my family, and I couldn't at the time.

2.)Know so much about HCE to be a newbie?

I'm a quick study.

 

[Makati2008]

Again, you are missing the point. ARC-PA has accredited these programs (and many others like them), meaning they meet their standards for PA education and the graduates of these programs pass the PANCE and then practice as PA’s. It only takes a single school with fewer prerequisites and high PANCE pass rates to demonstrate that a correlation between the amount and difficulty of prerequisites is not predictive of PANCE pass rates – the very exam that is designed to demonstrate PA competency to practice. Furthermore, you have zero evidence that PA’s graduating from these programs are less competent than those that graduate from other programs with increased prerequisite requirements.

I give up on this one because we both think we are right and no headway is being made. If you want the point you can take it lol.

The simple fact is that PA prerequisite course requirements vary greatly from school to school (as does, incidentally, experience requirements(agreed)), yet despite this, they all are ARC-PA accredited and produced graduates that pass the PANCE at high enough rates to retain their accreditation. So when you say that PA prerequistite requirements are > nursing school prerequisites and thus PA’s are > NP’s, you don’t have a leg to stand on when there are many PA schools that require equal prerequisites, yet produce graduates that have high PANCE pass rates. That is of course unless you are challenging the validity of the PANCE and the legitimacy of ARC-PA.

Again see above. I would never challenge the PANCE I am moreso challenging the NP profession due to lack of streamlining. I also have actually been to PA school and looked into other cirriculums(PA) so I think I am right and you being an outsider will have your opinion and think your right. I challenge you to sit in on a PA lecture or two after you finish your NP and tell me if they are similar in difficulty. Again we are at a stalemate, I base my leg to stand on being actually through an old established PA program and looking at some of these newer programs cirriculum.


Anecdotes DON’T give a real life point of view, hence why they are called “anectdotes.”
Actually they do. But if we fight over the semantics of the word we wil both be right.


No, not wrong. I do not mean “specialize” in regard to their jobs, I mean in regard to their educations. Of course PA’s specialize in their jobs – they work in specialty practice at a higher rate than NP’s. PA’s are educated broadly, NP’s are only educated in a specific area – that is what I meant by specialize.

You didn't clarify. Gee thanks.

You friend doesn’t know what she is talking about. Her statement is flat out false. Most first assists are only RN’s, and in fact, you don’t even have to be an RN to be a first assist. OR techs or the homeless bum on the street corner can be used as a first assist if the surgeon so desires.

Thats your colleague and she went to an okay NP program(I dislike her thinking that NP's should practice independently though). The same one that couldn't give me a Ddx on a sore throat with "kissing tonsils' as she called it.

Again, completely irrelevant to the conversation. You are on a fishing expedition hoping to find something about me personally that you can use to further your argument. My arguments, as do yours, rise or fall on their own, with no relationship to my or your personal life.

But, for the sake of ending the inaccurate speculation about me going on in your head as we have these conversations, I’ll answer. A few years back I decided to change my career. I was highly successful in networking and data communications to the point that I will take a significant pay cut when I graduate. I’m not doing it for the money. I already have a B.S. In my previous degree, I was a 4.0 in the major. Graduate studies in an MBA program, and then later at seminary – both 4.0. My science prereqs, none of which were the “watered down” versions – 4.0. My nursing GPA thus far – 3.9. National exam in anatomy and physiology after completing the course sequence – 89th percentile. Progression exams (5 to date) during nursing school – none less than 98th percentile nationally.

Before leaving my previous career, I looked at pharmacy, optometry, medical school, PA school and last, nursing school. After extensive shadowing and research, I decided I wanted primary care. I then ruled out med school because FP is low yield when considering the time and cost (in regard to the nature of the work). Though PA school would have been a shorter path, I would have had to relocate my family, and I couldn’t at the time.

Why did you not come to medical school? We both know back in AR if you get in and do the Rural match program tut. is basically free. Would it have been that tough to move your family? I had already seen you had a time making your decision and I was wondering if you were going to say why. My nosey side lol. Also FM is what you make of it. I know docs. making 300k that still have a life as well as those that make 170k and still have a life. If your truly not in it for the money then consider medical school(that is me actually being nice not trying to be a jerk but if your as smart as you say and I think then you should really consider it.)

KI’m a quick study.

I see.