Local anes onset times for regional blocks

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Maverikk

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What is everyone's tips/tricks for doing regional as a primary anesthetic for foot/hand procedures. Do you mix lido/bupi? two syringe with nesacaine and ropi? I want to start doing my foot/hand as regional with sedation rather than regional w/LMA, usually have about 10 min from block completion until we're in the OR and draping

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What is everyone's tips/tricks for doing regional as a primary anesthetic for foot/hand procedures. Do you mix lido/bupi? two syringe with nesacaine and ropi? I want to start doing my foot/hand as regional with sedation rather than regional w/LMA, usually have about 10 min from block completion until we're in the OR and draping

For a hand/wrist, our surgeon likes catheters, so I do an infraclavicular with Carbocaine 1.5% 10ml, Ropivicaine 0.5 15-20 mL.
By the time we block, drape, tourniquet, it's all good. I haven't had a block failure yet or inadequate anesthesia for surgery for 3 years with that. It's about a 15-20 min completion of block, patient to OR, prep/drape, timeout, tourniquet, then start time

Can't comment on the foot, we do postop analgesic blocks, not too many primary anesthetic blocks, but I would assume a similar cocktail with popliteal/sciatic and saphenous, if I was going that route.
 
What is everyone's tips/tricks for doing regional as a primary anesthetic for foot/hand procedures. Do you mix lido/bupi? two syringe with nesacaine and ropi? I want to start doing my foot/hand as regional with sedation rather than regional w/LMA, usually have about 10 min from block completion until we're in the OR and draping

There's no local anesthetic with a short onset and a long duration.

And mixing doesn't work.

If you need a fast onset, I'd do the block with 2% lidocaine or 1.5% mepivacaine.

If you also need a long duration, you can either then put in a catheter and bolus it with long acting LA later, or, just wait the 20-30 mins for onset. Or, have your surgeon supplement at the beginning.

Once worked with a dumb hand surgeon who wanted quickly-performed and long acting blocks but also to be able to cut 8-10 minutes after block completion. This dummy literally deemed every block a failure because, surprise, he had to supplement at incision. No matter how many times you explained the above concepts, he persisted. Not fun.
 
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If you do a strait regional with minimal sedation (say 2mg of midazolam) in pre-op do you need to stay with the patient in the OR?
We just stay in pre-op and do all the blocks there. (Common practice in Europe).
Anyway there's not a big difference between local anesthetics set up time.
 
What is everyone's tips/tricks for doing regional as a primary anesthetic for foot/hand procedures. Do you mix lido/bupi? two syringe with nesacaine and ropi? I want to start doing my foot/hand as regional with sedation rather than regional w/LMA, usually have about 10 min from block completion until we're in the OR and draping

If you are doing the block in the room and then going to sleep, not much you can do. IF you literally have 5 mins for it to set up I would just continue to do an LMA.

If you are doing the block in preop holding, and inject into the sheath, by the time you role into the room and then prep and drape and then surgeon comes in, in my reality that is 15 -20 mins at least and the block is set up. Maybe you can ask the patients to come to the preop holding area a little sooner?

I would only use bupi plus epi as you dont want a super short acting block just because you were trying to get it to come on a few minutes faster in the beginning.

And lastly, the true secret for doing it under MAC, is to consider where the tourniquet is...

For example, if you are doing a distal radius fx, and you do an axillary block, you are likely going to miss the upper arm where the tourniquet is and thus need GA. So do a SC instead and put most local lower down but some local up in the higher roots where you know the tourniquet will be.
 
What is everyone's tips/tricks for doing regional as a primary anesthetic for foot/hand procedures. Do you mix lido/bupi? two syringe with nesacaine and ropi? I want to start doing my foot/hand as regional with sedation rather than regional w/LMA, usually have about 10 min from block completion until we're in the OR and draping

Mepiv + bicarb can give you a surgical block from a supraclav in < 10 minutes
 
Chloroprocaine. Then when they can't finish by the time the block wears off, just tell the patient that you need to tube them because their surgeon is too damn slow. Can't stand when our surgical residents get impatient over a block. Look, the block takes less time than for you to prep, gown and drape, never mind the five hours it takes you to do a fifty minute procedure.
 
What's the experience like with using both long and short acting LA? In training when we wanted a quick block for short start times and the long acting we would do 2 syringes on a stop cock: mepi (no bicarb) in one ropi in the other, inject mepi first. The response (not having to do GA) was good but not 100%
 
I want to start doing my foot/hand as regional with sedation rather than regional w/LMA

I think the real question is why? 99% of patients do perfectly well with a surgical block + LMA (run propofol infusion +/- a whiff of gas). In the extraordinarily rare circumstance that the patient is too sick to have an LMA placed and you want to do regional with no sedation, that'll also be the case where you should have no qualms about telling the surgeon to stfu and wait for your block to fully set up.
 
I think the real question is why? 99% of patients do perfectly well with a surgical block + LMA (run propofol infusion +/- a whiff of gas). In the extraordinarily rare circumstance that the patient is too sick to have an LMA placed and you want to do regional with no sedation, that'll also be the case where you should have no qualms about telling the surgeon to stfu and wait for your block to fully set up.

I like doing sedation with no lma that's why
 
What's the experience like with using both long and short acting LA? In training when we wanted a quick block for short start times and the long acting we would do 2 syringes on a stop cock: mepi (no bicarb) in one ropi in the other, inject mepi first. The response (not having to do GA) was good but not 100%

evidence says if you mix locals, the onset time is slower than just using the rapid drug and the duration is shorter than using the long lasting drug.
 
Don’t forget intercostal brachial block for tourniquet pain too right? Easy and seems to work when I’ve done it.
 
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And lastly, the true secret for doing it under MAC, is to consider where the tourniquet is...

For example, if you are doing a distal radius fx, and you do an axillary block, you are likely going to miss the upper arm where the tourniquet is and thus need GA. So do a SC instead and put most local lower down but some local up in the higher roots where you know the tourniquet will be.

Don’t forget intercostal brachial block for tourniquet pain too right? Easy and seems to work when I’ve done it.

It works every time I have done it.
 
I like doing sedation with no lma that's why

me too, but check with your billing co, often you are costing yourself some $ by having such a good block and doing MAC instead of GA
 
me too, but check with your billing co, often you are costing yourself some $ by having such a good block and doing MAC instead of GA

MAC and GA pay the same. Only financial advantage would be if you did the block preop (for post-op pain control) and did a GA on top of it.
 
MAC and GA pay the same. Only financial advantage would be if you did the block preop (for post-op pain control) and did a GA on top of it.

Isnt that what everyone does?
 
MAC and GA pay the same. Only financial advantage would be if you did the block preop (for post-op pain control) and did a GA on top of it.
If you do block pre-op and then do a GA, it's considered a block for post-op analgesia and can be billed separately.

If you do it pre-op and do MAC, then the block is considered the primary anesthetic and should be billed as post-op pain management.

You can bill blocks however you want, but if you get audited, these are the billing guidelines.
 
There's no local anesthetic with a short onset and a long duration.

And mixing doesn't work.

If you need a fast onset, I'd do the block with 2% lidocaine or 1.5% mepivacaine.

If you also need a long duration, you can either then put in a catheter and bolus it with long acting LA later, or, just wait the 20-30 mins for onset. Or, have your surgeon supplement at the beginning.

Once worked with a dumb hand surgeon who wanted quickly-performed and long acting blocks but also to be able to cut 8-10 minutes after block completion. This dummy literally deemed every block a failure because, surprise, he had to supplement at incision. No matter how many times you explained the above concepts, he persisted. Not fun.

Anesth Analg. 2011 Feb;112(2):471-6. doi: 10.1213/ANE.0b013e3182042f7f. Epub 2010 Dec 14.
The effect of mixing 1.5% mepivacaine and 0.5% bupivacaine on duration of analgesia and latency of block onset in ultrasound-guided interscalene block.
Gadsden J1, Hadzic A, Gandhi K, Shariat A, Xu D, Maliakal T, Patel V.
Author information

Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Short- and long-acting local anesthetics are commonly mixed to achieve nerve blocks with short onset and long duration. However, there is a paucity of data on advantages of such mixtures. We hypothesized that a mixture of mepivacaine and bupivacaine results in a faster onset than does bupivacaine and in a longer duration of blockade than does mepivacaine.

METHODS:
Sixty-four patients undergoing arthroscopic shoulder surgery (ages 18 to 65 years; ASA physical status I-II) with ultrasound-guided interscalene brachial plexus block as the sole anesthetic were studied. The subjects were randomized to receive 1 of 3 study solutions: 30 mL of mepivacaine 1.5%, 30 mL of bupivacaine 0.5%, or a mixture of 15 mL each of bupivacaine 0.5% and mepivacaine 1.5%. The block onset time and duration of motor and sensory block were assessed.

RESULTS:
Onset of sensory block in the axillary nerve distribution (superior trunk) was similar among the 3 groups (8.7 ± 4.3 minutes for mepivacaine, 10.0 ± 5.1 minutes for bupivacaine, and 11.3 ± 5.3 minutes for the combination group; P = 0.21 between all groups). The duration of motor block for the combination group (11.5 ± 4.7 hours) was between that of the bupivacaine (16.4 ± 9.4 hours) and mepivacaine (6.0 ± 4.2 hours) groups (P = 0.03 between bupivacaine and combination groups; P = 0.01 between mepivacaine and combination groups). Duration of analgesia was the shortest with mepivacaine (4.9 ± 2.4 hours), longest with bupivacaine (14.0 ± 6.2 hours), and intermediate with the combination group (10.3 ± 4.9 hours) (P < 0.001 for mepivacaine vs. combination group; P = 0.01 for bupivacaine vs. combination group).

CONCLUSIONS:
For ultrasound-guided interscalene block, a combination of mepivacaine 1.5% and bupivacaine 0.5% results in a block onset similar to either local anesthetic alone. The mean duration of blockade with a mepivacaine-bupivacaine mixture was significantly longer than block with mepivacaine 1.5% alone but significantly shorter than the block with bupivacaine 0.5% alone.
 
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