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In SoCal, too....do they REALLY need another COP??
 
yeah I am sure they will get a real winner, too

from the job description: "The University, founded in 1994 as a postsecondary educational institution to educate and equip minority students for life careers in the field of health sciences and to produce quality health professionals for the community, the country and the world."
 
Members don't see this ad :)
NICE!!! another pharmacy school

how many years till the salaries crash hard? i give it about 2 years
 
witnessing our profession deteriorate right in front of our eyes.

pharmacy is becoming a vocation.
 
I wonder why it is so damn easy to open a pharmacy school these days....while medical schools and dental schools are extremely harder to open. and also why APCE and APhA do not know how to protect our own profession....*sighs*. Heck, i even heard that we have more and more online Pharm.D programs opening too....this is a crazy and dangerous world! Pharm.D title is such a joke!
 
More and more like law, without the strong hierarchical nature of law which keeps it a viable choice for students who are excellent at what they do.

Until there is a salient ranking structure, similar to what you find in law (T10/T14, then T1-T3, very distinct job possibilities as graduates from each of the tiers)... Anyway that's for a different discussion.

This leads me to believe that there should be some kind of oversight into these damn CoPs.

I was talking to a couple Pharmacists at the hospital I volunteer at and they were awe-struck when I explained how many schools there are now, and how expensive they are (One of the RPhs graduated from UoP in 2006 and it was only 41,000/year at that time, now it's 77...). I think there is a strong disconnect between "old school" RPhs, new ones, and students and of course, APhA. Maybe some people, important people, are just out of the loop, or something?

It is a serious problem, though. Especially in California. If there was an alternative I might explore it, but I'm too invested in pharmacy at the moment to change course.
 
Yeah, the only thing about that USF school not opening is that it isn't facing not being opened because there are too many damn pharmacists and not enough jobs, but because someone misallocated/mismanaged funds and there's not enough to go around, apparently.

Not really the same thing, IMO.

And USF is in Florida. This school OP is posting about is in California... yet another school in CA.

Western, LLU, Touro, UCSF, UCSD, USC, UoP, Samuel Merrit, CNCP, Fremont/Fresno whatever... yeesh.
 
Passion4Sci said:
Yeah, the only thing about that USF school not opening is that it isn't facing not being opened because there are too many damn pharmacists and not enough jobs, but because someone misallocated/mismanaged funds and there's not enough to go around, apparently.

Not really the same thing, IMO.

And USF is in Florida. This school OP is posting about is in California... yet another school in CA.

Western, LLU, Touro, UCSF, UCSD, USC, UoP, Samuel Merrit, CNCP, Fremont/Fresno whatever... yeesh.
Click to expand...

wtf is samuel merrit and fremont/fresno??? I've never even heard of those.
 
I don't know about the future ...but they need to stop mass producing pharmacists. I attended USC pharm grad ceremony this week and i happened to know that almost 50% of class don't have a job offer yet!!!. We have lots of students doing internships at our hospital and they still yet have no job offers!!! Even a couple of them are paid interns at two hospitals, but still no opening RPh positions after grad for them...

Not trying to be ugly and mean, but the chance of a future grad Pharm.D working at a liquor store can be very very possible....if they don't stop opening new schools everywhere like this.
 
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rxforlife2004 said:
I don't know about the future ...but they need to stop mass producing pharmacists. I attended USC pharm grad ceremony this week and i happened to know that almost 50% of class don't have a job offer yet!!!. We have lots of students doing internships at our hospital and they still yet have no job offers!!! Even a couple of them are paid interns at two hospitals, but still no opening RPh positions after grad for them...

Not trying to be ugly and mean, but the chance of a future grad Pharm.D working at a liquor store can be very very possible....if they don't stop opening new schools everywhere like this.
Click to expand...

Looks like Cali has a real problem with that and it is spilling over into AZ. Damn you cali people moving into my state!
 
Members don't see this ad :)
This is awesome!!! 👍

I'm going to be able to really open my retail empire..

and hire pharmacists for $45,000 per year!!

i'm gonna get rich!! 👍
 
rxlea said:
Looks like Cali has a real problem with that and it is spilling over into AZ. Damn you cali people moving into my state!
Click to expand...

I was gonna say that I should just go back and finish my Ph.D in Psychology but there aren't any jobs for clinical psychologists, either. LOL.

There just aren't any jobs for anything period (Beyond the usual "move to the boondocks" etc).
 
There was a school called tri state or tri city or something that applied for pre candidate status back in january but didn't get it. It is on the ACPE site. All these schools like St Joseph's and Harding and Concordia and D'Youville are going to make it harder in the job market. I can't wait to join some of the Pharmacy orgs so I can rile some people up. They need to stop opening up so many damn schools!
 
rxlea said:
There was a school called tri state or tri city or something that applied for pre candidate status back in january but didn't get it. It is on the ACPE site. All these schools like St Joseph's and Harding and Concordia and D'Youville are going to make it harder in the job market. I can't wait to join some of the Pharmacy orgs so I can rile some people up. They need to stop opening up so many damn schools!
Click to expand...

For real.

When was the last medical school open?
 
People, people calm down! We all can't be dean. One of you can be my secretary.
 
rxlea said:
Well, booooo...you would get the job before me because of your experience 🙁 maybe I can be assistant Dean? :laugh:
Click to expand...

if this school is anything like my school (USP)....you will all be deans in less than a year. :laugh:
 
Passion4Sci said:
When was the last medical school open?
Click to expand...

Last year, I think. Rocky Vista University, in Colorado.

There are some other new ones as well. Mostly branch campuses of existing schools, like LECOM-Bradenton (2004) and PCOM-Georgia (2004). I believe Touro University has opened a branch campus with a medical school recently as well.
 
Passion4Sci said:
For real.

When was the last medical school open?
Click to expand...

Meh I think med schools have the opposite problem we do though. Sure there are too many pharmacy schools - but as someone astute (forget who) pointed out on a thread a couple of months back, if so many weren't opening it would be a lot easier for drugstores to lobby successfully for a 'super-tech' position to replace pharmacists.

That is pretty much what is happening with med schools now: there are too few doctors coming out. As a result, other professions (most successfully the nursing lobby) have been incrementally chipping away at the medical field. There are 1001 other threads on this on SDN, but my point is this: without the artifically-imposed doctor shortage, the Allo forums would not be getting their panties in a bunch on a daily basis about "zomg teh midlevelz!!"The relative surplus of pharmacy schools might save us from a similar fate re. techs.
 
Jetninjin said:
- but as someone astute (forget who) pointed out on a thread a couple of months back, if so many weren't opening it would be a lot easier for drugstores to lobby successfully for a 'super-tech' position to replace pharmacists.
Click to expand...

moi.. :meanie:
 
Jetninjin said:
That is pretty much what is happening with med schools now: there are too few doctors coming out. As a result, other professions (most successfully the nursing lobby) have been incrementally chipping away at the medical field. There are 1001 other threads on this on SDN, but my point is this: without the artifically-imposed doctor shortage, the Allo forums would not be getting their panties in a bunch on a daily basis about "zomg teh midlevelz!!" The relative surplus of pharmacy schools might save us from a similar fate re. techs.
Click to expand...

You can't compare nurse practitioners (master degree; some with doctoral degree) to techs (high school graduates).
 
kdt110 said:
You can't compare nurse practitioners (master degree; some with doctoral degree) to techs (high school graduates).
Click to expand...

I'm not comparing them. I'm comparing professional encroachment.
 
i have to say, the pharmd is the new mba. every school offers one.

the pharmd has become a punchline plain and simple. there is NO JOB security for pharmacists anymore

the reason it is so easy to open a pharmacy school is there is no real lab type issues to answer to. you aren't doing procedures of any kind so it makes it easy for these subpar universities to open schools to make money. everyone wants to be a pharmacists but there are no jobs.

salaries will not keep up with inflation. in europe pharmacists are paid very very little. the job is not very respected. retail makes around 60,000 dollars (when converted to USD) and they have higher cost of living. the hospital is so low you could have skipped college and made the same easily.

i see a very very bad future for pharmacists. i hope everyone is ready for what's on the horizon.
 
Jetninjin said:
Meh I think med schools have the opposite problem we do though. Sure there are too many pharmacy schools - but as someone astute (forget who) pointed out on a thread a couple of months back, if so many weren't opening it would be a lot easier for drugstores to lobby successfully for a 'super-tech' position to replace pharmacists.

That is pretty much what is happening with med schools now: there are too few doctors coming out. As a result, other professions (most successfully the nursing lobby) have been incrementally chipping away at the medical field. There are 1001 other threads on this on SDN, but my point is this: without the artifically-imposed doctor shortage, the Allo forums would not be getting their panties in a bunch on a daily basis about "zomg teh midlevelz!!"The relative surplus of pharmacy schools might save us from a similar fate re. techs.
Click to expand...

you seem to forget, physicians can do so many procedures, operate cash only if they want. when given an option people choose a physician over a midlevel.

medicine has been around 2000 yrs and it isnt going anywhere anytime soon.

pharmacy is where it is today through politics. it is going to collapse just like the nurse anesthetists. their salaries are inflated right now but that will come crashing down hard. physicians will survive in the long run plain and simple.
 
PharmaTope said:
you seem to forget, physicians can do so many procedures, operate cash only if they want. when given an option people choose a physician over a midlevel.

medicine has been around 2000 yrs and it isnt going anywhere anytime soon.

pharmacy is where it is today through politics. it is going to collapse just like the nurse anesthetists. their salaries are inflated right now but that will come crashing down hard. physicians will survive in the long run plain and simple.
Click to expand...

Eh, as long as I get into a hospital job where I can stay til I retire, I don't care. They aren't going to decrease a salary you already have.
 
rxlea said:
Eh, as long as I get into a hospital job where I can stay til I retire, I don't care. They aren't going to decrease a salary you already have.
Click to expand...

but you need to take into account inflation and the fact the US debt has increased along with increases in money printing.

think of the cost of a home 15 yrs ago, that same home's price was almost 5x as much today. think if your salary from 15 yrs ago never changed to keep up with inflation... you would never be able to afford most things you have.
 
PharmaTope said:
but you need to take into account inflation and the fact the US debt has increased along with increases in money printing.

think of the cost of a home 15 yrs ago, that same home's price was almost 5x as much today. think if your salary from 15 yrs ago never changed to keep up with inflation... you would never be able to afford most things you have.
Click to expand...

I love your negativity, it's great. 👎
 
PharmaTope said:
but you need to take into account inflation and the fact the US debt has increased along with increases in money printing.

think of the cost of a home 15 yrs ago, that same home's price was almost 5x as much today. think if your salary from 15 yrs ago never changed to keep up with inflation... you would never be able to afford most things you have.
Click to expand...

pharmacy salaries have increased phenomenally in the last 40 years.

So you don't think companies/hospitals will ever give their workers raises? If a hospital gives raises, they usually do it all across the board and by a percentage provided your performance is good. Same with retail.

Besides, if I get a job where I work now, we get raises every year at least by 3% (one year it was 5%).
 
Last edited:
15 years ago, my salary was $40,000 per year. In CA, it was around $60,000. Increase in salary wasn't due to raises rather salary adjustments because of competitive recruiting by retail chains. So the dramatic rise in pharmacist salary started in 1996 and about doubled in 10 years but it's really tapered off past 5 years.

We will not see that kind of salary increase again. It was an exception not the norm. I believe there are 2 reasons for this.

1. Real Estate bubble both residential and commercial that led to increased number of pharmacies. Wags and CVS rode this tide.
2. Increase in prescription volume.

This caused a dramatic shortage of pharmacists with 69 pharmacy school putting out a steady number of pharmacists. It didn't help that there were years when schools graduated no pharmacists due to PharmD conversion.

Technology and Mail Order will take care of the prescription volume. Now the expansion of store fronts have halted. In fact, Wags, CVS, and others will cut back on the store hours as prescription delivery system through technology advances.

Hospital pharmacy retroactively increased pharmacist salaries to keep up with retail. But this is now a moot point and really hasn't been talked about much past 5 years. Also, hospital inpatient business is declining with more emphasis on less hospitalization and more outpatient approach.

It takes a dramatic event to cause a significant change to our profession. Only way to survive this downturn of the profession is for us to provide revenue generating and valuable service that's in demand.

But quite frankly, PharmD education alone does not prepare pharmacists to provide that sort of service whatever that maybe. It certainly doesn't help that now we have 50 diploma mill schools cranking out PharmDs.

Silver lining? I will have no problem hiring qualified hospital pharmacists and I won't have to be at their mercy when it comes to expecting accountability. At the same time, if I ever go back to being a staff pharmacist, it will suck looking for a job.
 
Its Z said:
15 years ago, my salary was $40,000 per year. In CA, it was around $60,000. Increase in salary wasn't due to raises rather salary adjustments because of competitive recruiting by retail chains. So the dramatic rise in pharmacist salary started in 1996 and about doubled in 10 years but it's really tapered off past 5 years.

We will not see that kind of salary increase again. It was an exception not the norm. I believe there are 2 reasons for this.

1. Real Estate bubble both residential and commercial that led to increased number of pharmacies. Wags and CVS rode this tide.
2. Increase in prescription volume.

This caused a dramatic shortage of pharmacists with 69 pharmacy school putting out a steady number of pharmacists. It didn't help that there were years when schools graduated no pharmacists due to PharmD conversion.

Technology and Mail Order will take care of the prescription volume. Now the expansion of store fronts have halted. In fact, Wags, CVS, and others will cut back on the store hours as prescription delivery system through technology advances.

Hospital pharmacy retroactively increased pharmacist salaries to keep up with retail. But this is now a moot point and really hasn't been talked about much past 5 years. Also, hospital inpatient business is declining with more emphasis on less hospitalization and more outpatient approach.

It takes a dramatic event to cause a significant change to our profession. Only way to survive this downturn of the profession is for us to provide revenue generating and valuable service that's in demand.

But quite frankly, PharmD education alone does not prepare pharmacists to provide that sort of service whatever that maybe. It certainly doesn't help that now we have 50 diploma mill schools cranking out PharmDs.

Silver lining? I will have no problem hiring qualified hospital pharmacists and I won't have to be at their mercy when it comes to expecting accountability. At the same time, if I ever go back to being a staff pharmacist, it will suck looking for a job.
Click to expand...

excellent, another realist. gotta agree with you here. makes much sense. the fact that pharmacists cannot do procedures and such really hurts the profession because there is no revenue generating capabilities.

think of NP, they can prescribe, inject, do botox, etc. PAs can also do procedures. by those abilities, they have protected themselves. not to say the massive nursing numbers and lobbying capabilities hasn't helped with that as well.
 
rxlea said:
So, what do we do about the diploma mills?
Click to expand...


hire accepted pharmacy students and turn them into suicide bombers...

Then let them go blow up the schools.

I'm taking applications..





Ok Ok...I kid.. the last thing I need is a visit from the homeland security or FBI.
 
rxlea said:
So, what do we do about the diploma mills?
Click to expand...


First, you'd have to define "diploma mill." I'd say that there aren't many pharmacy schools that meet the definition of a diploma mill.

I think the term is being used as a perjorative to demean new schools, but is that really an accurate characterization?
 
The retired dean from my school was telling all of his students that there were too many pharmacy school opening up years ago. Too bad nobody listened. That was when we were all convinced there was still a shortage.

In any case its all cyclical in my opinion. People weren't at each others throats to get into pharmacy twenty years ago. Because it didnt pay so much. So shortage > pay spike > flood of pharmacists. Not to be racist against anyone but i know plenty of immigrants in my school who had their parents force them (or at least nudge them) to go into pharmacy because at the moment it looked like the better choice than medical school (and may still be). But what are all those parents going to do when they see the job market flood? When they see that pharmacists are getting jobs? They will just tell their kids to go to another hot profession.

The way I see it it may take another decade but the number of unemployed pharmacists will decline as people notice that the illusion of the shortage is no longer the reality, and start enrolling in other programs. Because we all know a good chunk of people in pharmacy school are there at least partially for the money. So when the money leaves (in form of 50% unemployment), so will they.
 
All4MyDaughter said:
First, you'd have to define "diploma mill." I'd say that there aren't many pharmacy schools that meet the definition of a diploma mill.

I think the term is being used as a perjorative to demean new schools, but is that really an accurate characterization?
Click to expand...

Then, how do we get the accrediting body to limit the number of schools opening?
 
rxlea said:
Then, how do we get the accrediting body to limit the number of schools opening?
Click to expand...


That's an entirely different question. What are some reasons why the accrediting body SHOULD limit the number of schools opening? Reasons besides " We have too many pharmacists already and salaries are going to drop."

Is that even the accrediting body's role? ACPE Mission Statement

Would there be legal implications if ACPE were to start limiting the opening of new schools? Would there be problems with antitrust laws?
 
rxlea said:
Then, how do we get the accrediting body to limit the number of schools opening?
Click to expand...


you can't.

One way to limit the number of practicing pharmacist is to implement a mandatory "residency" requirement for licensure. then limit the residency space. Yet since there are only 2,000 or so residencies, that poses an issue. Then again, how do you limit the residency slots?
 
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Its Z said:
you can't.

One way to limit the numer of practicing pharmacist is to implment a mandatory "resdency" requirement for licensure. then limit the residency space.
Click to expand...

Difficult to do. Residency spots are already severely limited (supply < demand) but requiring a residency for licensure would have to be done legislatively, state by state. I think it's unlikely. A "residency" is not needed to be a pharmacist in the vast majority of jobs.
 
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